Star Trek Crap

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Point is, just because something is stable now, doesn’t mean it will be in decades time, especially when all evidence points to wormholes collapsing fairly frequently.

As for the wormhole aliens, who is to say they wouldn’t throw a shit fit and close it off.

Sisko would be long dead by the time they reach it too.

If you’re lost, going the most reliable route is much more sensible than taking a chance at a shortcut that wouldn’t save that much time in the long run

They’re going to be old/dead when they get back whatever happens unless they can find a much quicker way

[GlenTokyo]

Finished my fly through DS9 this morning. Have to say for my money it’s without doubt the best Star Trek series ever made, although I feel like the final series was a slight drop off.

Comments:

Gorgeous miniature effects, the model shots are immense, it’s a shame that bar ‘One Little Ship’ I found the CG a bit ropey. There are certain CG ships that really aren’t suitable for the close ups they give them.

If this show was made now people would be all over it as the best thing ever. Ahead of it’s time.

You’d be hard pushed to find a better quality cast anywhere. Performances are fantastic, Cirroc Lofton for example, can’t think of a better father/son pairing?

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

That last series does suffer a little from “we’ve basically done everything, now what else can we do” – TNG has the same problem too. The Dominion War stuff is great, but everything else is a bit meh. And then there are a handful of episodes all focuses on Ezri Dax which feel completely unnecessary. Her character was a little unnecessary at that point but it seems more pointless dedicating a bunch of episodes of your final season to a new character like that.

[GlenTokyo]

Ezri was a bit of an unfortunate blip on the series. I don’t know how people reacted at the time but all she did was make me wish Terry Farrell had negotiated a new contract. She wasn’t awful but she definitely seemed like a lower tier of actor, like SYFY original VS HBO, maybe some blame goes with the writers though.

Also the rank and field of expertise of Ezri made her a bit superfluous in the series considering the Dominion shit that was ongoing (although to be fair they did use the councillor angle a couple of times), and storylines with her in felt rushed and hard to get behind.

[GlenTokyo]

*Counselor

[GlenTokyo]

Just some more “once you’ve been in a Star Trek you’re in every Star Trek ever” casting discoveries I’ve noticed which may have been mentioned.

The Humanoid progenitor from TNG is played by the woman who plays (whilst in suspiciously similar makeup and clothing) the main Founder in DS9, and Andmiral Cartwright from some of the TOS movies, turns up as Joseph Sisko in DS9.

The captain of the Saratoga in Star Trek IV is Geordi’s Mum in TNG and the Vulcan officer on Sisko’s Saratoga is JG Hertzler who played Martok and 6 other roles across the Bermanverse.

[Ben Saunders]

After a (very) long hiatus, I decided to continue with season 6 of TNG, skipping Rightful Heir because I honestly just found it too dull to even consider re-watching the first half in order to get through it.

The other episodes at the tail end of season 6 are great, I liked how Second Chance didn’t go down the typical TNG route of dealing with the sci-fi side of things and getting all ethical over the duplicate situation, but rather provided a very interesting angle on Troi and RIker’s relationship. I remember enjoying Timescape more but I also seem to remember very little about the episode itself, some fun wibbly wobbly timey wimey shit. The finale/season 7 opener Descent was excellent, full of two of my absolute favourite things – continuity, and Beverly being a badass. I loved the use of lore (the concept) and the building upon several previous episodes to fuel this new story, with a bunch of returning concepts and characters, and I loved Crusher taking command. A little bit of a Doctor/Master kind of relationship between Lore and Data (the Who characters were going to be revealed as brothers at some point), and some real emotional stuff between them, which was really nice. I was utterly shocked to be getting emotional over (spoilers) Lore dying, but they humanise him just enough in the scene where he is outside talking to the Borg about how he doesn’t think Data wants to join him, that his final line before his death is properly set up and really packs a gut punch.

The idea of an ethics chip is incredibly questionable territory, but it’s very TNG, don’t you think? Very Roddenberry to have a strict set of guidelines that tell you exactly what is right and wrong and what you can and cannot do, and it’s almost a great bit of commentary on TNG’s very clinical and procedural treatment of ethics, and of the casual banality of the Prime Directive, which Starfleet officers, and particularly Picard, are more than willing to follow 100% by-the-book with little to no regard for the individual lives that are effected by these stuffy, bureaucratic decisions. Fitting that Picard is the one giving the speech about Data’s emotions chip being good. I don’t know what the intention of the writer was, but these are the ideas it inspired in me. Morality in actuality is a much more nuanced and subjective concept than an ethics chip or a Prime Directive could ever allow for, isn’t it?

This is the continuation of the weakening of the Borg which I hear continues into Voyager. In their first appearance, the Borg are indestructible and unstoppable, by this point they can be easily overcome with handheld phasers and solar flares. Of course, an invincible foe is incredibly difficult to write for in future reappearances, so such development was inevitable were the Borg to ever become recurring villains, which of course they were.

Glad I got back into Trek, looking forward to season 7 and then DS9.

[peas_and_corn]

>It completely fails in terms of trying to make people pay attention to environmental issues and even in-universe the future episodes just pay it a little lip service or ignore it completely…

Dredging a topic from the top of the page…

Apparently the folding nacelles on Voyager were a fix to that problem (somehow), though it was never mentioned on screen (possibly due to them wanting to minimise references to ensure accessibility for new audiences). The angle was supposed to be different depending on how fast they were going, but, well, effects budgets and all.

[GlenTokyo]

New Picard trailer is out, and it actually looks good!

Excited, tentatively. A bit of a dodgy de-age on someone but no spoilers if you’re waiting. Recommend having a look at it on YouTube though.

BTW, when did it go to Amazon? I think Star Trek was all Netflix? Has that affected production? Amazon seen to make better received stuff than Netflix these days.

[si]

Yes, the Picard trailer is good, isn’t it? Certainly not what I expected (whatever that was). Definitely worth investigating.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Oh that Picard trailer is fantastic. Very excited.

I’m sure they de-aging will look better in the episode, presumably only a short scene

[Pete Part Three]

I made it about 15 minutes into Discovery and bailed. I subsequently embarked on a TNG rewatch.

From the trailer, this is hard to resist. They better not fuck this up.

[Ben Saunders]

Yeah I saw a picture of the de-aging and they just looked fat lol

[GlenTokyo]

What they’ve done to Brent Spiner, is just smoothed his face, that haven’t trimmed it in anyway. So he’s still got his 70 year old head and it’s associated jowls and wider areas, but it’s baby smooth. The hard bit of deaging is changing the proportions of the face, that’s where it gets expensive I imagine.

[Plastic Percy]

I’m genuinely very excited for this, and I’m still enjoying Discovery.

I never expected Seven of Nine to be the crossover character, but now I think about it – and given Picard’s history with the Borg – it does make sense that they would have met.

Also of note, both Marina Sirtis and Jonathan Frakes have confirmed on Twitter that they’ve filmed scenes as Riker and Troi.

I don’t know if anyone has seen the excellent Star Trek Continues fan film series, but one thing they did in at least one episode – that makes sense to me, thematically – was have Marina Sirtis take over the voice of the Enterprise computer, and that’s an idea I wouldn’t mind seeing them run with, given she’s the ‘daughter’ of the original computer.

[pfm]

Does anyone else think it was a little weird how they made this huge deal of the 7 and Data reveal, keeping the actors away from the panel, initially, and all that, and zero word of Jeri or Brent’s involvement on the show, to then just randomly say ‘oh btw Frakes and Marina are in it too’…?? XD

Why didn’t they keep the other returnees secret??? In all honestly, I’m miffed about them spoiling them. Who, seriously, wasn’t gonna watch the Picard show? They did not need to spoil all this to get people interested! I would have loved Brent’s involvement to have been a huge surprise.

[Ben Saunders]

I have now finished TNG. All of it. :(

What a terrific final episode. What can I say about it that hasn’t been said before? It has just the right amount of fanwank and continuity porn, and it actually manages to make the concept of anti-time (anti-fucking-TIME, for goodness’ sake!), somewhat believable.

I was very intrigued by the writers deciding to explore the Troi/Worf dynamic so late on, that was really very interesting.

Also RE: the Warp 5 limitation imposed by that one episode. I don’t think Voyager ignored it in order to separate itself from the shackles of continuity and not scare off new viewers. TNG itself totally ignores it following its initial reveal, save for two throwaway lines in as many episodes. It’s an idea that totally undermines Star Trek itself and is utterly untenable going forward if the franchise is to continue. They could have either come up with some bullshit technobabble excuse for how they overcame the limitation, or they could ignore it, which they did.

Also RE: Picard, something I haven’t seen much discussion of anywhere is that they’ve got Jonathan Del Arco in it. He played Hugh, the emotional rogue Borg who separated himself from the collective in the episode I, Borg. So plenty of old faces.

I’m really utterly dismayed with the generic, uninspired “she is the chosen one” bullshit that is so prominent in the Picard trailer. We’ve seen this, and Trek doesn’t need it. I hope it’s better and a little more original than the trailer makes out.

[Ben Saunders]

Finished the first season of DS9. It was shite, for the most part.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

DS9 has a real slow start, but once it gets going, it really starts to fire on all cylindars.

[GlenTokyo]

Yeah bit of a slog at first, although Sisko’s “Woo” in the first episode makes up for it.

Once it gets going you just don’t want to stop watching it though. By far the best Trek available, and I’ve no nostalgic connection to it, it was my least watched Trek until last year.

[GlenTokyo]

Also, watch the entire series and go back to Emissary and some of the other early episodes, you appreciate them more.

I would love to rewatch all of DS9 but I really can’t dedicate that much time again haha

[Ben Saunders]

Season 2 is like the writers had a real kick up the arse and suddenly remembered how to write good and engaging television again, I’m really enjoying it now.

[Plastic Percy]

I think the biggest improvement for the second season is Doctor Bashir. They mostly drop his lechery, incompetence and lack of social grace and he grows up a bit.

[Dave]

I started watching TNG today for the first time ever. I was pretty impressed by how good the HD versions look on Netflix, and I enjoyed the first two-part story more than I expected. I could see myself getting through this pretty quickly.

[Ben Saunders]

It only took me seven months. But I seem to be going through DS9 at an accelerated pace, since I’m out of education, unemployed, and severely depressed.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

The HD versions of TNG look really good. It’s a shame the other series haven’t/won’t get that treatment.

I want to do a DS9 rewatch at some point but it sort of hurts my eyes just thinking about how low res and shitty effects it is.

[Ben Saunders]

You get used to it after a couple of episodes.

[GlenTokyo]

The first season of DS9 looks bad, after that is gets better. Eventually it just looks as clean as Voyager, which is about as clean as that “American serialised TV show SD” can look imo.

What we left behind is out now, think one of the main things that’s trying to do is prove with its sales that there is an interest in HD DS9 so who knows in the future, if WWLB does well. It has some sample scenes in it I believe.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I watched WWLB over the weekend (good doc but everyone has been banging on about it being the best thing to ever be made and I just felt like I was left unsatisfied but that’s another story). Those 4k shots are sooooo fucking good. Still won’t ever convince CBS to do what they did with TNG but it’s the best argument for it if ever there was one.

Even if there isn’t loads of money to be made in giving them the TNG remaster treatment, the fact that these shows live on streaming platforms now, with everyone one watching (new and old fans alike) streaming them to HD computer screens and HD or 4k TVs, with all of that only going to increase over time, they really should go over them and bring them up to a standard that will last a good long while.

[Warbodog]

I wasn’t going to come blundering in again with my size 12s (cock), but work won’t procrastinate itself.

everyone has been banging on about [What We Left Behind] being the best thing to ever be made

I hadn’t heard any hype, I just took it as a lavish boxset extra and enjoyed it. I stopped remembering to notice that the clips were HD after a while. It’s not that important to me, even if it would be nice.

Weirdest thing in the documentary was the claim that people didn’t get Garak in the ’90s and are only now appreciating him 25 years later. Garak was always the best. DS9 was always the best.

Going further back…

If [DS9] was made now people would be all over it as the best thing ever. Ahead of it’s time.

DS9 fit in with the long-form improv storytelling and character growth of shows like The X-Files and Buffy, so it was just what the franchise correctly should have been doing after TNG, and made a fantastic sequel to that series. I’d say it’s more Voyager that was the stubbornly retro outlier by that point.

I don’t hate Voyager, it was just sort of there and I’ve never felt like going back to it. TNG I can dip into a random episode any time forever, DS9 gets a thorough rewatch every 15 years. Love those TOS movies too, apart from the obvious.

That last series [of DS9] does suffer a little from “we’ve basically done everything, now what else can we do” – TNG has the same problem too.

Yeah, it’s a slight drop after the very strong 4-6. Partly because they hit the dramatic peak of the entire show in late season 5 to early season 6 (no spoilers in case Saunders is looking), also it doesn’t really have legendary stand-alone episodes of the calibre of The Visitor, Far Beyond the Stars, In the Pale Moonlight etc. Maybe the Nog episode.

Oh that Picard trailer is fantastic. Very excited.

I don’t feel anything to be honest, I prefer new things to revivals and there are already 178 episodes of TNG out there. But I’m sure it’ll be at least fine and hopefully more. I thought Discovery was fine.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Yeah, it’s a slight drop after the very strong 4-6. Partly because they hit the dramatic peak of the entire show in late season 5 to early season 6 (no spoilers in case Saunders is looking), also it doesn’t really have legendary stand-alone episodes of the calibre of The Visitor, Far Beyond the Stars, In the Pale Moonlight etc. Maybe the Nog episode.

That last season of DS9 is really ham strung by what they decide to do with Dax. Like, they didn’t need to do what they did … but did anyway, then spend a good chunk of the last series exploring it. Without that they might have had room to do some grander things.

Ditto the Vic Fontaine stuff … people seem to love that character but it feels a little like they have completely run out of ideas so they create this dude and setting that they can shove characters into at every moment whilst being completely dull.

What I do really like about that final seasons, is the fact that when it comes to wrapping it up, it isn’t just a nice two parter good bye and done. It’s a good stretch of 8-10 episodes that really build to the final events. Everything that has happened over the previous 7 years is explored, lose ends tied up, and stories concluded. Considering networks and everyone were telling them not to serialise the show, the really went with a big fuck you in the last half of the series and just showed what they could do and what would work if they did with the final batch of episodes that all roll one into the next like any modern day TV series would.

[Warbodog]

I like the two season 7 Vic episodes (Nog one and heist one), but I did not like him interrupting the good episodes like the season finales with his bloody songs, like it was The Young Ones.

More criminally, time spent in some fake 50s bar is less time spent in the sci-fi alien space bar we actually like. They already had a place to hang out, it was fixing a problem that didn’t exist. Just because Ira Behr & co were into that stuff, so they put it in.

The last stretch is great, but I don’t think it beats the previous serialised stretch, that was my “favourite episode.” Some of those episodes got pretty long.

[GlenTokyo]

Sort of spoiler so do not read if you’ve not seen it.

The Dax storyline in the last season really takes away from the last season, I think it’s technically a good (if tired) season, but trying to get us to care about this new stuff in the last season after loving the old stuff was never going to work. The soap opera one on the mining colony, we just didn’t give a shit.

Also, the casting, in Red Dwarf terms we went from Professor Mamet to Professor E.

[Warbodog]

Spoilers cont.

I always liked her. Of all the characters it could happen to, it’s pretty satisfying that six years of references suddenly become ominous foreshadowing in hindsight. You get to see a regeneration before the series is over.

[GlenTokyo]

Spoilers cont. again

I didn’t hate her or anything, I quite liked the arguing with Worf bits and her introduction episodes, and to be honest the idea but it was just too much too fast with the rest of Ezri’s story.

Still think the casting was a bit dodgy though, she had certain things she could do well, the lighter “zany Dax” stuff, but dramatic moments weren’t good from recollection.

[Warbodog]

You’re right, it’s just the 13-year-old me getting defensive because her less intimidating physicality combined with insecurity made me imagine that she was a slightly more attainable fictional alien woman from the future than the frankly unrealistic Seven of Nines.

[Hamish]

Now, am I really the only one here who never really cared for Jadzia to begin with?

(G&T is speechless)

Well, quite clearly I am!

[Ben Saunders]

She can be kind of fun but I think she’s the most replaceable main character in the show.

Why did they make Worf such an asshole in DS9? I think he’s really out of character here compared to his seven season of development on TNG.

[Plastic Percy]

I’m not the biggest fan of Jadzia Dax. I appreciate that she’s got seven lifetimes worth of experience on top of her own and is therefore an expert in many subjects, but she just felt a bit too smug and arrogant.

The only thing I found odd with Worf is how his relationship with Alexander was effectively reset. At the end of The Next Generation they were building bridges and learning to accept each other – I particularly love their moment at the end of A Fistful of Datas where he reassures his son that the Sheriff and Deputy would be needed again and then he puts his stetson on and practices his quick drawer in the mirror, clearly having fun playing at being a cowboy.

[Warbodog]

RIP Aron “Nog” Eisenberg (age 50).

One of many secondary actors/characters Deep Space Nine did well by, giving him a more interesting arc than most of the main guys in the end. From Dennis the Menace to overcompensating cadet and PTSD war veteran.

[Ben Saunders]

René Auberjonois (Odo) dead at 79. One of my favourite characters with one of my favourite storylines in all of Trek.

https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2019/12/08/us/ap-us-obit-rene-auberjonois.html

[Hamish]

Babylon 5 curse suddenly comes for DS9.

[Ben Saunders]

Decided to watch Star Trek IV tonight, and fuck me, what a film. Of course you already know how great it is. Totally absurd, bordering on outright ridiculous plot. Farcical tone that could not be further distanced from the original Star Trek series at points. But utterly wonderful, and full of great humour as well.

I loved the “people don’t take notice of you unless you swear” paying off with Spock taking notice of Kirk, what a great little moment.

A couple (intentional?) parallels to Red Dwarf – the invisible spaceship in Backwards, Spock doing multiple exams at once in the beginning a la Rimmer in Holoship. (Intentional on the part of Dwarf, not the other way around, obviously).

I’m so glad movies no longer begin with 3 minutes of credits telling you who’s in it, fuck me. But I did like how the end credits for IV had a slideshow of events from the movie, like an episode of TJ Hooker, that’s always fun.

Did I spot David Swchimmer as an extra, dressed in military garb at the Whale place?

[Ben Saunders]

Just finished Star Trek V.

This movie is awful…ly good?! Hello?! I loved it. So funny. So warm. The relationship between our three leads is a joy to behold. Sure the ending is a bit… nice, a bit clean, a bit fast. But that’s just the ending. We don’t really find out much about “God”, but that’s no reason for writing off the movie entirely, I really don’t understand why you would hate this movie. The “like the back of my hand” gag is dreadful, but most of the rest of it is wonderful. Wonderful!

If you don’t like it go climb a rock x

[Veni]

So I’ve never seen any Star Trek before until yesterday when I watched Star Trek: First Contact, and I won’t lie I thought it was underwhelming personally. The characters felt kind of flat to me and had a bit more action than I would’ve liked, plus the effects looked pretty crap minus a few standouts here and there. Patrick Stewart was good when he got screen time, and Data’s interactions with the Borg Queen were quite fun, in fact she and the Borg were fun villains here. I didn’t like James Cromwell, I thought he was really hammy and had a couple scenes I cringed at.

I did, however, recently watch Star Trek: Insurrection and it was pretty fun. I enjoyed the character stuff and it took things slower than the last film did with its plot. It focused more on Picard so he got more screen time, didn’t have to be stuck with some rando love interest I didn’t have any care for too. Data was as good here as he was last time, even if he didn’t have as much emotional impact here as compared to the last film. The effects were also better here than last time, even if they weren’t mind-blowing stuff like The Phantom Menace, it was able to convince me. That said, there were several short scenes of really, really shit greenscreen that took me out a bit. Overall, fun movie and I’m kind of looking forward to watching Nemesis next.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Veni, if Insurrection is your thing then you’ll generally enjoy most of TNG. That film is regularly described as a 90min long episode. Where other films go for bigger budget, higher concept things and are a bit more action heavy, Insurrection takes the long, pacey story telling route full of intrigue and discussion and moral debate etc.

Part of the reason some of the characters might feel “flat” in the films will be that they are working on the assumption that you have watched and know the history of their evolution over 7 years. They don’t really improve upon that much, they have reached these points and that is who they are and they don’t really explore them much more.

Although, a lot of Picard’s story in First Contact would really be served and understood better had you seen a couple of the previous TNG episodes. First Contact is really a sequel of sorts to the Best of Both Worlds two parter, and a lot of Picard’s emotions and motivation are based on what happened there.

I’ll be interested to see how you enjoy Nemesis. But I would really recommend you go back and watch the show. If you don’t want to commit to 7 seasons, make look up some lists of good episodes to watch that give you a taste of the show as a whole and hit import story and character developments.

[Ben Saunders]

Yeah, First Contact as your first experience of Trek is pretty messed up, since it 100% operates on the assumption that you’ve watched the show, it’s full of cameos and nods to fans, and the actual showing of the first contact with the Vulcans is pure fanservice. Insurrection is quite good until the end, if I remember right. The only bad Trek film (pre-JJ) is Nemesis, imo.

[Veni]

I do intend to compile a list of some acclaimed TNG episodes in the near future, maybe based off the highest rated ones on IMDb or something similar and watch them by airdate order.

I’ve looked around and it seems partially universal that Nemesis is terrible, but that doesn’t really effect me going in as I usually like stuff people hate lol, though whether I end up liking Nemesis remains to be seen. Probably gonna watch it tomorrow and post my thoughts then.

[Hamish]

It is the direction that lets Nemesis down. The plot by and large is serviceable.

I remember as a kid listening to an audio book of the novelization of Nemesis, and it really is unreal how much better some of the line readings were in that when compared to the film. A massive missed opportunity.

[Veni]

From reading-up on the movie, I heard it had something to do with Stewart having too much involvement for the film’s own good or something. I don’t know really, I haven’t even read the plot synopsis yet.

[Author]

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