Home Forums Ganymede & Titan Forum Things the new Red Dwarf should avoid

Viewing 100 posts - 1 through 100 (of 108 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #2557
    SertainDeaf
    Participant

    I’m sure most of us want the new Red Dwarf episodes to be a success. As they haven’t started filming I was thinking it might be an ideal time to give them a list of things to avoid in the acting, locations and script. A collection of worst moments. Moments you find yourself skipping over.

    Something like:

    1. Avoid the hamming it up of KillCrazy et al from series 8″.
    2. Never ever repeat the screensaver and Rimmer song guff.

    #84757
    Dave
    Participant

    most of us?

    #84758
    SertainDeaf
    Participant

    I figure if I said all of us someone would say “I don’t”.

    #84759
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Depends what you mean by “success”.

    If it’s “extremely popular but shit”, then no, I’d hate that.

    If it’s “a long-awaited return to form”, then I don’t think anyone would mind.

    #84760
    SertainDeaf
    Participant

    Well to me it means “If it?s ?a long-awaited return to form?, then I don?t think anyone would mind.”.

    I just want to name the broad comedy crap that was making Red Dwarf 8 head towards ?extremely popular but shit?.

    #84761
    Zombie Jim Undead
    Participant

    The Rimmer Song?! But that’s the only moment amidst 16 episodes that actually made me laugh!

    It should avoid feeble slapstick / arsing about, dumbing down, weak writing, excessive adherence to continuity and Kochanski.

    #84762
    SertainDeaf
    Participant

    Yeah, it made me laugh, but you couldn’t repeat that type of gag. It was just about appropriate as a bon-voyage to ace-hole. Too much winking at the viewer and it becomes yawn inducing (screen saver).

    #84763
    Paul Muller
    Participant

    Even if the end result turns out as a two-part Bird-man monologue in front of a black curtain, I’ll still love it, simply because it’s Red Dwarf and it’s been so long.

    That said.

    Please no more pointless peripheral jokey characters a la Kill Crazy, Birdman, Archie or dinosaurs who give massages.

    No more plotlines that require all the cast to wear identical pink jumpsuits.

    A bit less dressing up in drag, getting erections, farting etc.

    No pulling funny faces after every gag.

    That’s all.

    #84764
    Zombie Jim Undead
    Participant

    No excessive use of racial swear-words or jokes about children with cholera.

    #84765
    Baz
    Participant

    No more nude transformation scenes.

    Please.

    #84767
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >Even if the end result turns out as a two-part Bird-man monologue in front of a black curtain, I?ll still love it, simply because it?s Red Dwarf and it?s been so long.

    You see; IMO this is what is wrong with fandom. I’m not having a go, Paul; I just don’t think it leads anywhere good.

    Anyway, to return to the original question; just replicate the quality of 1-V (and VI if you ditch the running jokes) and I’ll be a happy man. However, I realise that replicating the quality of 1-VI hasn’t been achieved in 15 years, which explains my pessimism.

    #84770
    Zombie Jim Undead
    Participant

    > just replicate the quality of 1-V (and VI if you ditch the running jokes)

    If they replicated the quality of VI even WITH the running jokes…I’d be bloody impressed.

    But in all honesty…how likely is it? If it’s just Doug Naylor without Rob…I can’t see why it’ll be any better than 7 or 8.

    #84771

    If you’re going to use Kochanski, first decide what kind of character she’s going to be and stick with it. Her characterization was all over the place in VII, and it sort of degenerated into “generic Teh Girl so we can make period jokes olololol” in VIII. After all, characterization is something Red Dwarf usually does really well.

    #84772
    Andrew
    Participant

    So basically this is a “Why we don’t like Series VII and VIII” thread with a balaclava on?

    #84773
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    It is quite hard to talk about the prospects of something new without mentioning what came immediately before (especially when it was pretty faultless up until then). And some people have a few problems with what came immediately before and don’t want those problems to come back.

    #84776
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    I stand corrected.

    #84777
    SertainDeaf
    Participant

    I thought seeings Andrew felt that this was “everything is great but series 7+8” that I’d give more detail about what I saw as problematic. I could have just written that the later series got too lazy, but then he’d have asked me to justify myself. Catchphrases.. nuff said.

    #84778
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Fair enough, I just thought I was the one who was hard to please round these parts!

    #84779
    SertainDeaf
    Participant

    I also preferred the dry humour of Holly in series (1) and (2) than the ditzy humour of Hilly/Holly series (3) onwards, or even the pompous quips of Kryten standing in for that role. So my view, either drop Holly/Hilly altogether or use Norman (under careful direction).

    #84780
    Zombie Jim Undead
    Participant

    Every thread regardless of topic should make at least a passing mention of series 7 and 8 being shit.

    It still huuuuuurts…

    #84775
    SertainDeaf
    Participant

    Oh dear.

    Moving on…

    Series1 : High points – characterisation, script, taking its time to set things up before delivering the gag. Low points – cat was incredibly irritating in this series, no more so than in Waiting for God.

    Series2 : High points – most of Kryten, all of Thanks For The Memory, Stasis Leak, and Queeg. The use of Holly was brilliant in the latter and the series were just about the right blend of sci-fi and exposition. Cat wasn’t so irritating, and apart from a few yawn inducing scenes in Better Than Life and Parallel Universe – those two just don’t work for reasons I haven’t worked out yet.

    Series3 : Low points – Backwards. This was just shit. Sorry. I fail to get what is supposed to be so funny and great about this. The stupid stuff with the Reagan mask. Some clever bits but honestly, compare it with High Points: Marooned (brilliant in almost every way – bar two scenes with Kryten and Cat), Timeslides (masterstroke) and The Last Day (apart from the scene in the officers club where the characterisation starts to slip), the latter shows a “good” use of a monster. Polymorph was also pretty good in my view, forcing the actors to show a bit of range.

    Series4 :
    Lot to say here, as this to me represented a tipping point for Red Dwarf.

    For me this is patchy at best. Camille was just yawn inducing, a second bad start to the series and I remember when I first watching it cringing. What was good in that episode was the use of different women(and cat) for the different crew members, using it to mirror their personalities. DNA was so-so, the return of monsters to run around against was a bit tedious. Justice was slightly better but again, monster. I remember watching this one with my brother and we were saying “surely if the monster shoots at them he will die” and waiting for Lister (i.e. the script) to catch up. White Hole, hmm. Good gag with the time jumps but the whole bit with Lister in the Aigburth Arms had me shifting in the seat waiting for the episode to end. Bit more friction between the characters in this episode. Dimension Jump was about as far as I would have liked Red Dwarf to take this “Dan Dare” parody, and the trousers of time/dimension stuff. The way it contrasted Rimmer with Ace Rimmer was great, and you could ignore the GPH problems because it was entertaining. Meltdown for me was a low point, apart from Listers’ speech. But when an episode contains hardly any comedy and loads of pathos you know its gone wrong.

    Series 5: Holoship, Inquisitor, Quarantine and Back To Reality. Very much the highpoints and I remember at the time thinking “great, they have started going in the right direction”. Low points were Terrorform (snore, apart from the scene with Krytens’ eyeball at the start) and Demons & Angels.

    Series 6: Psirens, well, hmm. It was going so well, any part beyond detecting the Real Lister was just tedious. Legion, excellent, even though the characters and their interaction start to become secondary to the plot (again) everything else about this episode makes up for it. Gunmen of the Apolcalypse was a steaming pile of dogturd, for me. I know everyone else loves it but I skip it these days. Polymorph II. See what I said about Series 3 Polymorph: “the latter shows a “good” use of a monster. Polymorph was also pretty good in my view, forcing the actors to show a bit of range.”. This didn’t happen in this episode. Rimmerworld was quite good, as a sci-fi episode and had some great scenes with Rimmer trying to deal with his stress. It was all a bit “obvious” somehow. Out Of Time was quite entertaining, and had some great scenes in it. Some of the gags were mere put-downs, but the ending made up for it. Better smeg than dead, indeed.

    Series 6 worried me at the time.

    Series 7. I loved Tikka To Ride, vaguely intelligent, some dodgy acting but the camera work and production values were great. But throughout this series the cut scenes and animations look very dodgy. Highlights: Tikka To Ride, Duct Soup (and I can say why I like this one) and the “hand, pick up the ball” gag. Low points: Blue, Stoke Me A Clipper (yawn, Ace Rimmer revisited).

    Series 7 was the last one I saw, and I’m not sure I saw all of it first time around.

    Series 8 I saw for the first time at Christmas, and came to it with no expectations. I hated Back in the Red. The gag with the ship going up the arse of a rat made my heart sink, it would be easier to say what I liked about those three. Erm. Hmm. The Cassandra episode was refreshing and I remember thinking, OK, so they took a while to get into it. Krytie TV was a bit broad but had some genuinely great lampoons in it. Pete and Pete II were best forgotten. Only the Good, well, if they had launched a series 9 off the back of that I think we could have safetly said that Series 8 was just an abheration.

    So it isn’t a Red Dwarf is great apart from 7 + 8. It is that I was attracted to Red Dwarf in Series 1 and Series 2, and the elements of this series, apart from series 5 gradually diminish. The difference between 1,2,3,4,5 and 6,7,8 is like the difference between Extras and When the Whistle Blows. OK, not that bad, it just stopped being aimed at me.

    (fixed some typos)

    #84785
    Zombie Jim Undead
    Participant

    > The difference between 1,2,3,4,5 and 6,7,8 is like the difference between Extras and When the Whistle Blows. OK, not that bad, it just stopped being aimed at me.

    That is a superb description. Though I would split it: 1,2,3,4,5,6 and 7,8.

    #84787
    TheLeen
    Participant

    > Things the new Red Dwarf should avoid

    I’m going to answer MORE Red Dwarf, LESS Starbug.

    ;p

    #84788
    SertainDeaf
    Participant

    Andrew, were you involved in series 7 or 8 somehow?

    #84789
    Andrew
    Participant

    > Andrew, were you involved in series 7 or 8 somehow?

    Not at all (unless being in the VIII audience counts). I didn’t work for GNP until a year or so later.

    #84791
    SertainDeaf
    Participant

    But you like VIII and VII more than most seem to?

    #84792
    Almighty_crj
    Participant

    Oh, dance routines, songs, CGI dinosaurs and any other major budget draining gimmicks should be axed. They were all right when we were trying to woo Hollywood but the Movie funding never came.

    However we are due an overtly expensive scene – the next full season we need ?100K+ to destroy the Arc de Triomphe for ‘Earth’. That episode will need Doug to rummage through the stock footage library to see how much he can use.

    On the topic of things we’d like to see, I’d rather see more budget spent on model effects. Sets could use a bit of money to explore the universe.

    Writing wise I’d like: rounding off the intriguing questions of series 1, The second polymorph getting out of Lister’s underpants drawer, ‘Identity Within’ becoming a 2 parter to be produced with Terry Farrell as Aura and finally ‘Earth’ to bring the curtains down… rather literally.

    I’m not asking a lot… am I?

    #84793
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >But you like VIII and VII more than most seem to?

    That’s not really true. VIII is very popular just not so much with the community here. VII seems to get a bad rep, regardless though.

    #84794
    SertainDeaf
    Participant

    >VIII is very popular just not so much with the community here.

    Funny, I’ve never encountered anyone, when Red Dwarf comes up, who had a good thing to say about Series VIII. Not having seen it until relatively recently I wondered if it was Red Dwarf fatigue setting in but no, it really was a stinker in places. Perhaps if you only came to the series around 5 or 6 you wouldn’t think it stuck out like a sore thumb.

    I quite like parts of 7. It just needed tighter direction, tighter editing and a better script for Kochanski.

    #84795
    ChrisM
    Participant

    Perhaps if you only came to the series around 5 or 6 you wouldn?t think it stuck out like a sore thumb.

    I doubt it. Series 5 an 6 are a lot of fans favourites. Many love those series and dislike 7 and 8.

    #84796
    SertainDeaf
    Participant

    Well, we all take different things from comedy I suppose. There might even be some people out there who liked Gimme Gimme and Dinner Ladies, or think that Is It Legal is the ACME of comedy. Just because they are diametrically opposed to my tastes doesn’t make them wrong.

    (yes it does ;-) ).

    #84797
    Zombie Jim Undead
    Participant

    My Hero was brilliant!

    #84798
    locusceruleus
    Participant

    >1. Avoid the hamming it up of KillCrazy et al from series 8?.

    I’d say avoid the inclusion of the lot of ’em. It’s the core crew everyone will be eager to see again.

    #84799
    Andrew
    Participant

    The simple facts are that, yeah, there’s a vocal community who dislike VII and VIII with a passion. But there’s also a lot of separation – people who lump VI in with those two, or who hate Series I, or who dislike VII but find VIII entertaining.

    Still, my personal take is that that community tends to be mostly ‘fans’ rather than ‘viewers’. The people who get into heated discussions about which Rimmer is the real one, who know who wrote what, and who post those opinions on fan sites.

    People who watch TV and buy DVDs, but don’t necessarily know that, say, Rob and Doug split up, make up a majority of the viewership, a majority of the sales. As with any franchise, if you sold only to the fans, you’d never make your money back.

    If you only encountered people who dislike VIII, fair enough. My sense is that happens a lot online, and less often in person. When I meet people, it tends to be about 50/50 as to whether they like the show at all, then 50/50 as to whether they noticed any difference towards the end.

    Still, not all fans disliked the series. VIII, in particular got a LOT of great reviews (better than most series, in fact, which a lot of ‘back to its best’ stuff from people like SFX magazine). Ratings went up at a time when ratings were starting to fall. And the DVD sales testify that, in fact, people wanted them in their collections.

    I do feel VII and VIII are a different show. They just happen to be a show that I like a lot. I think they’re good TV, rich in invention and ideas – and (Nanarchy aside) they make me laugh. Which is an opinion I had long before the job became relevant – proof of which you can find in my old fan-submitted reviews in the Club magazine.

    #84801
    Andrew
    Participant

    > There might even be some people out there who liked Gimme Gimme and Dinner Ladies, or think that Is It Legal is the ACME of comedy

    Man, you just listed three very good shows. Thus, I guess, making the point!

    #84803
    Turk Thrust
    Participant

    I think that as Series VII and VIII are the only series to have been written by Doug without Rob, it’s only natural that people would be worried about perceived errors being replicated in the new eps.

    Personally I hope that the 2 new eps have a much stronger script editor as I think Series VIII had some good gags in it but also some terrible ideas and lots of unnecessary lines.

    Ideally I would cut Kochanski altogether but if she is included then I hope Doug makes her into a more well rounded character rather than just a stereotypical male image of what a woman is.

    I hope also that there is a return to more subtlety and pathos too. Doug said in one of the DVD interviews that maybe it was a shame that that had been lost so there seems a chance it will return.

    #84804
    Jonsmad
    Participant

    That’s a very true post from you Andrew about most fandom circles. It’s the same in the band fandom circles I move in, there are disscusions of set lists often with just as small an audience focus without ever mentioning the more casual or genuine large number of fans enjoying the subject with less microscope analysis or regularity, but still taking genuine joy in the subject.

    Fan’s in the middle of things tend to often think their voice is more informed but forget they are surrounded by ring upon ring of audience that the producer of the subject is just as interested in pleasing, or targeting. I hope the new dwarf specials bring even wider circles of interest to red dwarf.

    Andrew you look at the whole dartboard when others are talking just the bull.

    #84805
    John Hoare
    Participant

    Another vote here for loving Gimme Gimme Gimme, dinnerladies, and Is It Legal? – and I hate VII/VIII! I especially think Gimme is a misunderstood show – I really didn’t like the first episode, so didn’t watch any more – and then my girlfriend persuaded me to watch it again a few years later, and it just clicked.

    But yeah, I think Andrew’s right – there are shitloads of people who love VII and/or VIII. Including people on this very forum. I will never understand it, but there are more than enough people who loved it. And yes, it’s important not to always lump the two series together – there are people who love one but not the other, or who don’t like VI either, or even people who only like the first two series…

    So the question for me, personally, isn’t about any of that. It’s just the simple fact that VII and VIII turned Dwarf into a show that just wasn’t for me. At all. Will the new specials be a show that I will love again? That’s what I worry about, in the end – it’s not about taking what I think and applying it to anyone else, it’s just a simple matter of whether I love the show or not.

    And I really really hope I do.

    #84806
    James
    Participant

    There something at least, that without VII & VIII there wouldn’t be so much discussion and conjecture over the show, surely this a good thing?

    #84809
    Paul Muller
    Participant

    It does strike me as odd that the two series seem to get lumped together when people voice their gripes about Red Dwarf, as they’re so different in style and content.

    Anyway, I don’t mean to keep going on about VIII – I’ve got my issues with it, but I don’t want anyone to think that I’m making a dig at the people who did like it by any means – I’m just voicing my own frustrations with the last series, which, after all, is what online communities like this are for I suppose.

    #84810
    Danny Stephenson
    Keymaster

    No more nude transformation scenes.

    Please.

    I quite liked “DNA” :)

    #84811
    Paul Muller
    Participant

    Despite previous ranting about knob gags, the ‘double polaroid’ scene still makes me giggle like a schoolgirl.

    #84814
    Andrew
    Participant

    I’m seeing this on a James Bond board right now – people talking about boycotts based on the new song, about how dropping the catchphrases means upsetting the fans, which – oh boy – ‘they will regret’. Well no, they won’t. Not if they entertain everyone else. The appeasement of a vocal minority really shouldn’t be anyone’s priority.

    It’s easy to dismiss that distinction as populist versus artistic, or as unthinking versus critically aware. It’s easy to dismiss people who don’t know who the writers are, say, as unqualified to judge. But I genuinely think the critical fanbase is just as given to what could be seen as unthinking rhetoric.

    For example, there’s no shortage of fan reviews for the I to VI DVDs that mention how much they hated VII and VIII. I’m not convinced every one of those mentions was justified in reviewing that content. (Though I don’t dismiss all of them, context is relevant.) The constant running jokes of ‘Series VII was shit’ do nothing for me, but they help the group feel like they have something in common. At the same time, ironically, they alienate themselves from others – because the flippant, scathing comment is only funny if you agree with it.

    Which is to say, isn’t it enough to be bonded over something? Must we sub-divide ourselves into factions? Can’t the (admittedly repugnant) Craig Is Not Bond campaign calm down? A few movies, over a few years, enjoyed by a great many? Do you really need to separate from the OTHER fans of a 40-year franchise? Do you really need to mount a hateful campaign? Is it making any difference at all?

    (The myth that Firefly’s DVD sales is what got the film funded isn’t really the case – but examples like that fuel fans’ opinion that they made something happen…and so are entitled to a piece of it. That sense of entitlement is part of the problem, too. Because no, what you’re entitled to is this: you get to watch the DVD you paid for. Fandom is not altruistic by nature – it’s barely symbiotic, but often becomes parasitic.)

    Dismissing the whole of any work seems simplistic to me. You never see VIII-haters talking at length about the impressive imagination on display in those series, of things being done right. Likewise, the faction of Bond fans who dismiss the whole of Moonraker for its admitted idiocy are choosing to overlook a myriad good qualities – not the least of which is how well the film gets Bond into a credible space-based setting.

    When the simplistic summaries come in, the throwaway dismissals, a fanbase is in no position to feel superior. The comment “people who think they like this are deluding themselves because they’re fans” is, in a nutshell, why ‘listening to the fans’ has to become a exercise in heavy filtering.

    For me “Things the new Dwarf should avoid” is a negative way to go about celebrating your franchise of choice. And in such a small group it can’t help but lean towards existing biases that we’re all kinda aware of already. It comes with a vague agenda – to complain.

    I like my fandom more positive – “What would you LIKE to see?”

    (As an aside, I’d love a non-vitriolic discussion sometime on the merits and flaws of VII and VIII, but I’ve yet to find a forum to achieve it…aside, actually, from sat in the bar at Dimension Jump.)

    #84815
    John Hoare
    Participant

    It does strike me as odd that the two series seem to get lumped together when people voice their gripes about Red Dwarf, as they?re so different in style and content.

    I think they get lumped together because more people in fandom have an issue with either one or the other or both than the first six series, so it’s just an easy shorthand. But no, it’s not really ideal to treat them as one series in in-depth discussions.

    Despite previous ranting about knob gags, the ?double polaroid? scene still makes me giggle like a schoolgirl.

    Knob gags are great, if they’re done well. Problem I have with VIII is how badly a lot of it is done.

    Gah, VII/VIII debates are like a scab that I can’t stop picking…

    #84816
    Turk Thrust
    Participant

    > Dismissing the whole of any work seems simplistic to me. You never see VIII-haters talking at length about the impressive imagination on display in those series, of things being done right. Likewise, the faction of Bond fans who dismiss the whole of Moonraker for its admitted idiocy are choosing to overlook a myriad good qualities – not the least of which is how well the film gets Bond into a credible space-based setting.

    I respectfully disagree that you don’t ever see people rationally talking about the merits of those 2 series. Quite often, including in this thread, people mention good jokes, ideas, episodes etc. from the last 2 series. If some people feel that the bad outweighs the good though then obviously comments about the negative aspects will be mentioned more.

    Similarly with Bond, many people are able to talk about the plusses and minuses of the Moore era. Particularly the hardcore fans I find.

    > For me ?Things the new Dwarf should avoid? is a negative way to go about celebrating your franchise of choice. And in such a small group it can?t help but lean towards existing biases that we?re all kinda aware of already. It comes with a vague agenda – to complain.

    But then posters could, and probably would, just make the same comments in different clothes. For example, instead of talking about not making the mistakes of VII and VIII they would talk about getting back to the heights of the first 6 series.

    Also, as previously mentioned, it is inevitable that talk of new Dwarf will mention old series and as Doug only wrote VII and VIII without Rob then those are the 2 most relevant series to talk about.

    > I like my fandom more positive – ?What would you LIKE to see??

    The nature of these boards is to talk about negative things quite often though isn’t it. For example, in the thread that you started the other day you expended 90% of your time talking about how much Ricky Gervais sucks and much less time praising British cinema. That’s the way it goes.

    #84817
    John Hoare
    Participant

    Dismissing the whole of any work seems simplistic to me. You never see VIII-haters talking at length about the impressive imagination on display in those series, of things being done right.

    I’m not sure that’s quite true. I certainly, have talked in the past about the positive qualities of VIII, and other people certainly have done the same on here. I think it just feels like that because there is more stuff about the negative aspects.

    But I think that’s in the end, people’s overall conclusion about a show overpowers all else. In all honesty, it doesn’t matter to me much that VIII has positive qualities – because I don’t enjoy it because I think the bad stuff overpowers all else. That’s really the nub of the matter about the series for me – and so that’s the bit I’ll talk more about.

    For me ?Things the new Dwarf should avoid? is a negative way to go about celebrating your franchise of choice. And in such a small group it can?t help but lean towards existing biases that we?re all kinda aware of already. It comes with a vague agenda – to complain.

    But I do think it also comes from a natural place – people who did feel like VII and/or VIII didn’t do much for them. Which is an unpleasant thing for any fan to have to go through – their favourite show turning into something they’re not keen on.

    I don’t think most of it comes from a place where people are being negative for the sake of it – I think it comes purely from a sense of worry about whether they’re going to like the new stuff or not. Which is understandable.

    #84818
    Paul Muller
    Participant

    I think Andrew’s right that perhaps we shouldn’t be going about this so negatively, but I’m not sure the James Bond comparison is particularly valid, not for me anyway.

    The fact that I don’t really like the last series doesn’t mean that I don’t still love Red Dwarf – I totally do.

    And although I have complaints about some of the writing and ideas within VIII, I still have massive respect for Doug Naylor and I’m genuinely excited about the upcoming specials.

    To be honest, I don’t think a bit of bitching about a series which aired 10 years ago is quite the same as mounting a hate campaign against one actor in particular, a la ‘Craig is Not Bond’

    #84820
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >Likewise, the faction of Bond fans who dismiss the whole of Moonraker for its admitted idiocy are choosing to overlook a myriad good qualities – not the least of which is how well the film gets Bond into a credible space-based setting.

    Moonraker isn’t a film I particularly enjoy and, despite having it on DVD, I don’t think I’ve watched it in years. It’s heavily flawed and I think there are few merits. I think I enjoyed it as much as, um lets say, Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull.

    >Dismissing the whole of any work seems simplistic to me.

    I seem to remember you reviewing Indy 4 on NTS and being rather harsh. In fact, I don’t seem to recall you having much good to say about it at all.

    And fair enough. You obviously didn’t like it, so why should you spend a review listing all the good points if the overall effect it left on you was one of anger and annoyance.

    If someone asked me what I thought of Date Movie, I’d tell them it was shit and they shouldn’t bother watching it. I wouldn’t say “Alyson Hannigan is as cute as a button though and she’s always worth watching”, because as cute as she is, she couldn’t salvage the rest of an awful film.

    As an Indy fan, you shouldn’t be expected to dismiss flaws and love something unconditionally just because it has the title “Indiana Jones and the” as part of the title.

    And the irritation that is apparent in your review for Indy 4 (whether you’ve cooled on it or not) is kind of where I am with Red Dwarf VIII.

    >You never see VIII-haters talking at length about the impressive imagination on display in those series, of things being done right.

    Because we hate it, hence your term “VIII haters”. It’s worse than Moonraker. And Indy 4.

    #84821
    Andrew
    Participant

    > I respectfully disagree that you don?t ever see people rationally talking about the merits of those 2 series.

    To be fair, I simplified terribly there, you’re (both) right.

    > But then posters could, and probably would, just make the same comments in different clothes. For example, instead of talking about not making the mistakes of VII and VIII they would talk about getting back to the heights of the first 6 series.

    Indeed. Though I think the difference is important – and more likeable.

    > Also, as previously mentioned, it is inevitable that talk of new Dwarf will mention old series and as Doug only wrote VII and VIII without Rob then those are the 2 most relevant series to talk about.

    Oh, sure.

    > The nature of these boards is to talk about negative things quite often though isn?t it. For example, in the thread that you started the other day you expended 90% of your time talking about how much Ricky Gervais sucks and much less time praising British cinema. That?s the way it goes.

    I’m not saying I’m somehow separate from all this – though in that instance I was asked to justify one aside of the argument rather than the other. (Had I been asked “What other good British films are there? isn’t that list pretty well all of them?”, THAT”S what I’d have come back on.)

    #84822
    Andrew
    Participant

    > And the irritation that is apparent in your review for Indy 4 (whether you?ve cooled on it or not) is kind of where I am with Red Dwarf VIII.

    Which is fair enough. But my point is that HAVING that opinion, coming from a place of fandom with it, doesn’t entitle anyone to feel ‘better’ than the non-fan audience. The bemoaning is fine enough, it’s the “and therefore the brand should listen to us as we insist on changes” thing that bugs me.

    #84823
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >The bemoaning is fine enough, it?s the ?and therefore the brand should listen to us as we insist on changes? thing that bugs me

    This I heavily agree with. Doug seemed to listen to reaction to Series VII and gave us a Series VIII that was extremely different in terms of stories and tone. My opinions on VIII will tell you whether I thought he should have paid much attention to the fans.

    I don’t think the show (or any show) is in the right territory when it’s pandering to fans (hence my dislike of Emohawk and why a Future Echoes conclusion would serve any purpose other than alienating newcomers). It just ends up giving us fan-fiction.

    But I don’t think you can judge people harshly if the have strong feelings on where they want the franchise to go and want to voice it on one of a dwindling number of outlets. It goes with the territory of being a fan. We can’t help it.

    #84824
    Andrew
    Participant

    > it?s the ?and therefore the brand should listen to us as we insist on changes? thing that bugs me.

    Well, that and the “people who like this are deluded” thing.

    Sorry, I didn’t mean to kick off a whole VII/VIII thing. It was meant to be about the way fandom can often see its criticism as ‘more valid’ than Joe Soap’s. And then I lost it a bit.

    #84825
    Paul Muller
    Participant

    *group hug*

    Let the Series VII/VIII argument be buried….

    UNTIL NEXT TIME.

    #84826
    Turk Thrust
    Participant

    In the spirit of talking about what we would like to see, I would hope to see just the 5 main characters and not Ace, Hollister, Kochanski, the Dibbley family etc. 2 episodes is not that much time so I hope that they are both driven by the main characters and the plot rather than bringing on characters for cameos unless they are integral to the plot.

    I also hope that the characters’ ages are referred to and that they are allowed to grow old fairly gracefully. I also pray that the characters actually feel authentic.

    The main thing that I’d like though is to not feel like I’ve watched The Legacy of Red Dwarf after the eps have finished. But if the best material from the movie script is used then that shouldn’t happen if it’s as good as has been suggested.

    #84827
    Dave
    Participant

    >I loved Tikka To Ride

    It’s bizarre, but that’s the only thing you said that I agree with

    #84830
    TheLeen
    Participant

    >1. Avoid the hamming it up of KillCrazy et al from series 8?.

    > I?d say avoid the inclusion of the lot of ?em. It?s the core crew everyone will be eager to see again.

    I always enjoyed the side characters. That’s one reason why I was happy series VIII took place on board of the Red Dwarf again.

    But two episodes won’t be enough time to set up any characters of the “regular side cast” type properly, so I’d focus on the main cast (but I include Hollister there).

    If it was an entire new series, I’d be all for the side characters, old and possibly new ones!

    #84831
    SertainDeaf
    Participant

    > it?s the ?and therefore the brand should listen to us as we insist on changes? thing that bugs me.
    > Well, that and the ?people who like this are deluded? thing.

    Or that “people who disagree with me are have psychological defect x/y/z” or are suffering from delusions of grandeur. Apart from our natural need to eat and shit one other immutable law of human beings is that we all have opinions. Not every criticism is a threat along the juvenile “lets boycott Bond” line.

    “Sorry, I didn?t mean to kick off a whole VII/VIII thing. It was meant to be about the way fandom can often see its criticism as ?more valid? than Joe Soap?s. And then I lost it a bit.”

    Who thinks that, on this board? Is it required?

    I joined this board because people on it didn’t seem up their arses like your average fan board does.

    Telling someone like Doug, who by this stage will doubtless have scripts ready, what individuals want to see is pointless. Telling him what to avoid still gives him creative freedom, if he wants to listen.

    “Yay, I want to see Daleks! I want to see 1000 elephants! I want to see the back of Krytens head in every shot! I want to see nostril hair close camera work and high contrast lighting! I want more boobs and knob gags! Lets have monster of the week back again!”

    Why? Because he already has his ideas, and I don’t want to watch a bunch of crap that any person on the street can come up with, I want something from the superb imagination of Doug Naylor (if he wants to run it by Rob Grant then its up to him, I don’t get the mystical power that people seem to give the combination as together they made as many mistakes as apart).

    If you leave the creativity up to the writer/actors/directors what does that leave you with? What feedback should an audience ever give? Well they get enough plaudits on fan sites to keep them warm to the end of eternity. They could just rub their hands at their ratings. But we all know that ratings, whilst great, and applause whilst fun at the time doesn’t really cut the mustard.

    If you are in the precarious position of Grant Naylor Productions, needing to build momentum up again in order to have another swing at a series, a movie et al you are surely in the business of building up goodwill and a reputation. You want your last chance (and this is surely it) to relaunch the brand you are trying to sell to set the right message.

    You want people to say, “fuck me, that Red Dwarf 9, we want to see more than that, they really nailed it!”.

    And who are the they?

    No more than the word of mouth opinion, the views of influential critics like Charlie Brooker whose opinions are more or less tuned in with the 20 and 30, and not your average 5 line TV quick review. Want you don’t want heard is people pissing in the tent from outside afterwards about some twatty Rimmer song or how the show just found puny excuses to re-run old gags and old characters being extra Zany. Stuff that you could just as easily -if you had known or listened to your inner voice after slaving over far too many scripts this year – have dropped in favour of other material.

    Pretending that Series VII and VIII were shining examples of Red Dwarf and its just self elevated fans being uber snobby about it might help Doug Naylor sleep at night and give VII and VIII fans a warm fuzzy glow of self righteousness, but it is needlessly dismissive if not a bit snotty.

    For my part, I tried to watch series VIII again last night with Andrews’ comments in mind. Thinking perhaps, like Series VII which I happen to find quite watchable, I’d been influenced against it.

    I got part the way through episode two before having to switch it off in disgust. I made a list of what was wrong, surprisingly it wasn’t the script (although it had problems):

    1. The camera work & scene lighting eyestrain irritating.
    2. Too close to characters in scenes. Pull the camera back a foot for fucks sake!
    3. The music was just offputting.
    4. Some of the extra actors just hammed it up in the most stupid way.

    I even made a note at what time my appreciation of the episodes started to drop.

    That comes down to, what, direction and production problems right? Perhaps Red Dwarf 8 just wasn’t aimed at me or all the others who have major problems with it. I can accept that. The writers can chase whatever audience they want, nothing special about me!

    The defensiveness about Series 8 and the criticisms worry me slightly; I wonder does Andrew know something we don’t? Is he trying to short circuit criticism about it … perhaps because series 9 is more of the same? Eeek.

    Bollocks to art, it just has to be funny, good, and re-establish the rep. It has to respect the audience or it will get the audience demographic it deserves and go nowhere. Red Dwarf had to fight an uphill battle against bigotry first time around, that obnoxious Guardian article shows that it has to do it again and fight against the damage it did to its own reputation and the Benny Hill in Space image that people who should know better seem to want to give it. You want it to gain advocates.

    I don’t want Red Dwarf Series 9 to just succeed because of my own selfish nature – although I admit thats there – I want it to succeed because it has left a big gaping hole in the side of British comedy (and not just sci-fi comedy), and because I know Doug Naylor can do it.

    #84832
    SertainDeaf
    Participant

    >>I loved Tikka To Ride
    >It?s bizarre, but that?s the only thing you said that I agree with

    Thats just dandy.

    #84833
    locusceruleus
    Participant

    It’s only natural that after ten years of anticipating the return of their favourite show in one format or another, people will be worried that it might disappoint them, especially since the last 2 series did indeed disappoint a lot of fans.

    >It does strike me as odd that the two series seem to get lumped together when people voice their gripes about Red Dwarf, as they?re so different in style and content.

    I couldn’t agree more. I’ve always liked Series 7 – it was experimental, and ambitious if not always successfully executed.

    I wonder what sort of budget the show will have, being on Dave? It should be interesting to see what kind of direction these 2 episodes will take – comedy drama, something a bit epic, dialogue heavy, character based stuff…maybe something completely different.

    Either way, its nice to have something to talk about.

    #84834
    Andrew
    Participant

    > But we all know that ratings, whilst great, and applause whilst fun at the time doesn?t really cut the mustard.

    In other words ‘It’s the opinions of people like me that really matter’?

    > Telling someone like Doug, who by this stage will doubtless have scripts ready, what individuals want to see is pointless. Telling him what to avoid still gives him creative freedom, if he wants to listen.

    So ‘I’d love to see this’ is damaging, but ‘don’t include this’ is liberating?

    No offence, but I think this kinda illustrates my point – ‘My form of criticism is useful and should be taken on board…not like those other forms.’

    > The defensiveness about Series 8 and the criticisms worry me slightly; I wonder does Andrew know something we don?t?

    Do you have any idea how offensive this is?

    #84835
    SertainDeaf
    Participant

    >> But we all know that ratings, whilst great, and applause whilst fun at the time doesn?t really cut the mustard.
    >In other words ?It?s the opinions of people like me that really matter??

    I carefully explained what I meant by that later on. If my criticisms are not interesting or useful then they will be disregarded, I’m fine with that. The mustard I was referring needing to be cut is quite clear – and that is with the influential. Equally clearly that does not equal me.

    >> Telling someone like Doug, who by this stage will doubtless have scripts ready, what individuals want to see is pointless. Telling him what to avoid still gives him creative freedom, if he wants to listen.
    >So ?I?d love to see this? is damaging, but ?don?t include this? is liberating?
    >No offence, but I think this kinda illustrates my point – ?My form of criticism is useful and should be taken on board?not like those other forms.?

    No offence, but that is just your spin on my point. I’m sure I don’t have to break it down further for you, or do I? Try not to conflate “pointless” with “damaging”.

    >> The defensiveness about Series 8 and the criticisms worry me slightly; I wonder does Andrew know something we don?t?
    >Do you have any idea how offensive this is?

    I suspect no more or no less offensive than anything you have said that others don’t want to hear. I’m sorry you feel offended by it, but tough. It is the impression you are giving me. I have to ask why you are wandering around with a high pressure anti-critic firehose in your hand.

    #84838
    Zombie Jim Undead
    Participant

    I wonder if Andrew is going to have had a ruck with everyone on the board by the end of the week.

    #84839
    Paul Muller
    Participant

    Steady on, Jim…

    #84840
    Zombie Jim Undead
    Participant

    Just saying is all. There’s a lot of crossness going on of late. It can’t be good for the humours.

    #84841
    Paul Muller
    Participant
    #84842
    Zombie Jim Undead
    Participant

    Nice!

    #84868
    Dave
    Participant

    The return of the Holly Hop Drive

    #84873
    Phil
    Participant

    Our friends the genitals.

    #84874
    Zombie Jim Undead
    Participant

    There’s never any need for knackers.

    #84875
    Zombie Jim Undead
    Participant

    And as long as Craig isn’t visibly mouthing other people?s lines I?ll be happy.

    #84877
    performingmonkey
    Participant

    > and (Nanarchy aside) they make me laugh

    It’s good to see that not even teh Andy Ellzzardz can praise that abomination of an episode.

    Though I honestly never think ‘god I hate this’ when I watch ANY Red Dwarf (OK, perhaps the hilarious chewing-gum-sticks-hilariously-to-things scene.). If someone seriously has so many fucking issues with Dwarf, whether it’s post-VI, post-V or whatever, why don’t you go and, I don’t know, take interest in something else? EDIT BY JOHN HOARE: WARNING. EXTREMELY NSFW LINK.

    #84880
    ChrisM
    Participant

    >Though I honestly never think ?god I hate this? when I watch ANY Red Dwarf

    I agree. I don’t hate any of the Red Dwarf series although I may prefer some series over others (and even in the ‘least favoured’ series there are some wonderful episodes… and in the ‘least favoured’ episodes’ there are some great scenes.)

    #84883
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >If someone seriously has so many fucking issues with Dwarf, whether it?s post-VI, post-V or whatever, why don?t you go and, I don?t know, take interest in something else?

    Maybe because they love the “early” days so much and still delight in re-watching it and discussing those episodes?

    Or is that just grounds for a one-way ticket to a disgusting website* too?
    __

    * I mean; I’m no prude Monkey, but FFS.

    #84885
    Andrew
    Participant

    > It?s good to see that not even teh Andy Ellzzardz can praise that abomination of an episode.

    Well to be fair I’m only saying it as an agent of a company in order to convince other people about it. Or something.

    #84888
    Ridley
    Participant

    * I mean; I?m no prude Monkey, but FFS.

    That seems to be the idea.

    …I liked Nanarchy.

    #84889
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >That seems to be the idea.

    There’s a difference between shocking for the purpose of a “joke” and, well, just linking to an illegal website. What’s next? Kiddie-porn websites for people who didn’t like Last Human, or is that a step too far?

    #84890
    ChrisM
    Participant

    I liked pretty much all series 7. Some of the repetitive whining irritated me a bit at the time (i.e. Kryten’s jealousy), but that doesn’t bother me now.

    I think the sudden change with Rimmer leaving and Kochanski inclusion jarred a bit to start with, but that was no fault of Chloe Annette. (She performed very well.) It was simply a matter of getting used to the change, and in hindsight, I’m fine with it. I actually quite liked the reaction of the other crewmembers trying to cope with “Officer Bud-babe”. (I used to think Cat was saying “butt-babe”, and I wondered why Kochanski wasn’t offended by his constant references to her bottom.)

    Duct Soup bored me a bit at the time, yet I realize there are some great gags in that episode. Lister’s claustrophobia, the little dialogue between he and Kochanski as she snaps him out of it and the following bit with Cat “This claustrophobia thing, so were you born with it or are you just kinda sissy?” And the “What’s that noise?” sequences. “Is it an object hitting Cat’s head kinda noise?”

    Great stuff.

    #84891
    Ridley
    Participant

    There?s a difference between shocking for the purpose of a ?joke? and, well, just linking to an illegal website. What?s next? Kiddie-porn websites for people who didn?t like Last Human, or is that a step too far?

    Well I thought my joke was better. :s

    I think Dwarf should avoid suddenly pulling out a concept like the mirror universe from nowhere. It can be assumed Kochanski came across one in her dimension but it would have better if she’d actually said so. Or something.

    #84892
    mick
    Participant

    No being shit.
    Of all the things they need to do with new Dwarf I think not being shit would be the top of my list.
    Look back at, oh I dont know *insert series VII episode here* and pretty much just not be like that, ie. shit.

    I hope very much my ideas are taken on board.

    #84903
    Zombie Jim Undead
    Participant

    You can love some of Dwarf and detest other bits. The idea that you either love something throughout its entire lifespan or hate it entirely (or, worse still, shouldn’t be allowed to say that you enjoy it) is quite frankly bonkywonk.

    #84906
    locusceruleus
    Participant

    > If someone seriously has so many fucking issues with Dwarf, whether it?s post-VI, > post-V or whatever, why don?t you go and, I don?t know, take interest in
    > something else?

    Ah, you mean in the same way that if you don’t like a particular song by your favourite band, you should never listen to them, go see them or discuss them again.

    Flawless logic AND sharing a favourite website? Monsieur, you are really spoiling us.

    #84951
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    I hate everyone.

    #84963
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Of course the one thing I REALLY don’t want is Iain Lee doing the continuity for the new episodes.

    #84964
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Actually, I’d love that. Because he’d be getting paid to say something good, because it’s Dave’s first ever self-produced show (I think?), so they’d have to big it up in the continuity. “And now, on Dave, the long-awaited return of a comedy classic… it’s the brilliant return of Red Dwarf”. And he’s such a fucking whore (and so short of work) that he’d take the money for doing it. And then we could record it and put it on the site and make him look like a hypocritical twat.

    So, yes. More than up for Iain Lee doing the continuity. Does he even do continuity for Dave already? If not, it’s a good time for him to start. I’m sure he can fit it into his busy schedule.

    #84966
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    > And then we could record it and put it on the site and make him look like a hypocritical twat.

    Oooh, good point! Ok, my mind has been changed.

    Yeah, he does the vast majority of the current Dave continuity. Predictably it’s objectionable, unfunny shite. The chances of him doing New Dwarf are large.

    #84976
    Phil
    Participant

    >And he?s such a fucking whore (and so short of work)

    Made me laugh…probably because I’m absolutely sure he’s still reading this forum.

    #84978
    hummingbird
    Participant

    >So, yes. More than up for Iain Lee doing the continuity.

    I second that.
    Should we start a petition?

    #84988
    ChrisM
    Participant

    Heh, I think I recognized his voice on there a little while ago. (I’ve got that ‘Rich Hall’s Fishing Show’ on in the background right now. Although I admit I’m not really watching it.)

    #85007
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    When Dave launched, it was supposed to be a different shit comedy-related celebrity doing the pre-recorded continuity every week. Then they ran out, and just kept Iain Lee on a loop. He’s cheap. Very cheap.

    #85011
    mick
    Participant

    >just kept Iain Lee on a loop

    Reliable sources inform me me that they do the same in Guantanamo Bay.

    #85017
    John Hoare
    Participant

    It’d be nice if Dave did some live continuity in primetime, as the ratings are going so well. E4 manages it!

    #85034
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    > It?d be nice if Dave did some live continuity in primetime, as the ratings are going so well. E4 manages it!

    And yet they *still* have the shit, non-sensical Scrubs introductions.

    “Next we’re scrubbing in at The Sacred Heart!”

    #85048
    Dave
    Participant

    Thanks to Dave I’ve discovered my Dad doesn’t comprehend Roman numerals, he called me to say he’d just sat through an episode of Red Dwarf 9, and it wasn’t a patch on 4. Turns out he meant 8 wasn’t a patch on 6.

    I’m wondering whether anyone actually taught me how Roman numerals work or did I just learn it from Red Dwarf video covers/Star Trek films?

    #85050
    ChrisM
    Participant

    I learned them at school. I can only count so far though but up until X I’m ok. (Actually higher than that including the Vs Is etc…) I’m not sure where the Cs and Ls come in (although I think C is one hundred. No doubt I could google and find out. Which I might after this… I’m curious now and obviously easily fascinated.)

    #85051
    ChrisM
    Participant

    One google later….

    I was right about the C, and apparently L is 50!

    A chart here.

    Apparently there’s a D (500) and an M (1000) too.

    #85052
    Andrew
    Participant

    > L is 50!

    I think you’ll find Jean-Paul Sartre said L is other people.

    #85055
    Zombie Jim Undead
    Participant

    No, that was Popeye the Sailorman.

    *mixed quote special*

    #85067
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    > *mixed quote special*

    It’s so easy to get those two dudes first in the shower room!

    #85079
    Zombie Jim Undead
    Participant

    Hey, I’m so excited all six of my nipples are all fossilised and stuff.

    #85081
    Dave
    Participant

    This baby’s crashed more times than a triple fried egg butty with chili sauce and chutney.

Viewing 100 posts - 1 through 100 (of 108 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.