Things the new Red Dwarf should avoid

[SertainDeaf]

I’m sure most of us want the new Red Dwarf episodes to be a success. As they haven’t started filming I was thinking it might be an ideal time to give them a list of things to avoid in the acting, locations and script. A collection of worst moments. Moments you find yourself skipping over.

Something like:

1. Avoid the hamming it up of KillCrazy et al from series 8″.
2. Never ever repeat the screensaver and Rimmer song guff.

Topic

[Dave]

most of us?

[SertainDeaf]

I figure if I said all of us someone would say “I don’t”.

[Pete Part Three]

Depends what you mean by “success”.

If it’s “extremely popular but shit”, then no, I’d hate that.

If it’s “a long-awaited return to form”, then I don’t think anyone would mind.

[SertainDeaf]

Well to me it means “If it?s ?a long-awaited return to form?, then I don?t think anyone would mind.”.

I just want to name the broad comedy crap that was making Red Dwarf 8 head towards ?extremely popular but shit?.

[Zombie Jim Undead]

The Rimmer Song?! But that’s the only moment amidst 16 episodes that actually made me laugh!

It should avoid feeble slapstick / arsing about, dumbing down, weak writing, excessive adherence to continuity and Kochanski.

[SertainDeaf]

Yeah, it made me laugh, but you couldn’t repeat that type of gag. It was just about appropriate as a bon-voyage to ace-hole. Too much winking at the viewer and it becomes yawn inducing (screen saver).

[Paul Muller]

Even if the end result turns out as a two-part Bird-man monologue in front of a black curtain, I’ll still love it, simply because it’s Red Dwarf and it’s been so long.

That said.

Please no more pointless peripheral jokey characters a la Kill Crazy, Birdman, Archie or dinosaurs who give massages.

No more plotlines that require all the cast to wear identical pink jumpsuits.

A bit less dressing up in drag, getting erections, farting etc.

No pulling funny faces after every gag.

That’s all.

[Zombie Jim Undead]

No excessive use of racial swear-words or jokes about children with cholera.

[Baz]

No more nude transformation scenes.

Please.

[Pete Part Three]

>Even if the end result turns out as a two-part Bird-man monologue in front of a black curtain, I?ll still love it, simply because it?s Red Dwarf and it?s been so long.

You see; IMO this is what is wrong with fandom. I’m not having a go, Paul; I just don’t think it leads anywhere good.

Anyway, to return to the original question; just replicate the quality of 1-V (and VI if you ditch the running jokes) and I’ll be a happy man. However, I realise that replicating the quality of 1-VI hasn’t been achieved in 15 years, which explains my pessimism.

[Zombie Jim Undead]

> just replicate the quality of 1-V (and VI if you ditch the running jokes)

If they replicated the quality of VI even WITH the running jokes…I’d be bloody impressed.

But in all honesty…how likely is it? If it’s just Doug Naylor without Rob…I can’t see why it’ll be any better than 7 or 8.

[Arlene Rimmer BSc SSc]

If you’re going to use Kochanski, first decide what kind of character she’s going to be and stick with it. Her characterization was all over the place in VII, and it sort of degenerated into “generic Teh Girl so we can make period jokes olololol” in VIII. After all, characterization is something Red Dwarf usually does really well.

[Andrew]

So basically this is a “Why we don’t like Series VII and VIII” thread with a balaclava on?

[Pete Part Three]

It is quite hard to talk about the prospects of something new without mentioning what came immediately before (especially when it was pretty faultless up until then). And some people have a few problems with what came immediately before and don’t want those problems to come back.

[Pete Part Three]

I stand corrected.

[SertainDeaf]

I thought seeings Andrew felt that this was “everything is great but series 7+8” that I’d give more detail about what I saw as problematic. I could have just written that the later series got too lazy, but then he’d have asked me to justify myself. Catchphrases.. nuff said.

[Pete Part Three]

Fair enough, I just thought I was the one who was hard to please round these parts!

[SertainDeaf]

I also preferred the dry humour of Holly in series (1) and (2) than the ditzy humour of Hilly/Holly series (3) onwards, or even the pompous quips of Kryten standing in for that role. So my view, either drop Holly/Hilly altogether or use Norman (under careful direction).

[Zombie Jim Undead]

Every thread regardless of topic should make at least a passing mention of series 7 and 8 being shit.

It still huuuuuurts…

[SertainDeaf]

Oh dear.

Moving on…

Series1 : High points – characterisation, script, taking its time to set things up before delivering the gag. Low points – cat was incredibly irritating in this series, no more so than in Waiting for God.

Series2 : High points – most of Kryten, all of Thanks For The Memory, Stasis Leak, and Queeg. The use of Holly was brilliant in the latter and the series were just about the right blend of sci-fi and exposition. Cat wasn’t so irritating, and apart from a few yawn inducing scenes in Better Than Life and Parallel Universe – those two just don’t work for reasons I haven’t worked out yet.

Series3 : Low points – Backwards. This was just shit. Sorry. I fail to get what is supposed to be so funny and great about this. The stupid stuff with the Reagan mask. Some clever bits but honestly, compare it with High Points: Marooned (brilliant in almost every way – bar two scenes with Kryten and Cat), Timeslides (masterstroke) and The Last Day (apart from the scene in the officers club where the characterisation starts to slip), the latter shows a “good” use of a monster. Polymorph was also pretty good in my view, forcing the actors to show a bit of range.

Series4 :
Lot to say here, as this to me represented a tipping point for Red Dwarf.

For me this is patchy at best. Camille was just yawn inducing, a second bad start to the series and I remember when I first watching it cringing. What was good in that episode was the use of different women(and cat) for the different crew members, using it to mirror their personalities. DNA was so-so, the return of monsters to run around against was a bit tedious. Justice was slightly better but again, monster. I remember watching this one with my brother and we were saying “surely if the monster shoots at them he will die” and waiting for Lister (i.e. the script) to catch up. White Hole, hmm. Good gag with the time jumps but the whole bit with Lister in the Aigburth Arms had me shifting in the seat waiting for the episode to end. Bit more friction between the characters in this episode. Dimension Jump was about as far as I would have liked Red Dwarf to take this “Dan Dare” parody, and the trousers of time/dimension stuff. The way it contrasted Rimmer with Ace Rimmer was great, and you could ignore the GPH problems because it was entertaining. Meltdown for me was a low point, apart from Listers’ speech. But when an episode contains hardly any comedy and loads of pathos you know its gone wrong.

Series 5: Holoship, Inquisitor, Quarantine and Back To Reality. Very much the highpoints and I remember at the time thinking “great, they have started going in the right direction”. Low points were Terrorform (snore, apart from the scene with Krytens’ eyeball at the start) and Demons & Angels.

Series 6: Psirens, well, hmm. It was going so well, any part beyond detecting the Real Lister was just tedious. Legion, excellent, even though the characters and their interaction start to become secondary to the plot (again) everything else about this episode makes up for it. Gunmen of the Apolcalypse was a steaming pile of dogturd, for me. I know everyone else loves it but I skip it these days. Polymorph II. See what I said about Series 3 Polymorph: “the latter shows a “good” use of a monster. Polymorph was also pretty good in my view, forcing the actors to show a bit of range.”. This didn’t happen in this episode. Rimmerworld was quite good, as a sci-fi episode and had some great scenes with Rimmer trying to deal with his stress. It was all a bit “obvious” somehow. Out Of Time was quite entertaining, and had some great scenes in it. Some of the gags were mere put-downs, but the ending made up for it. Better smeg than dead, indeed.

Series 6 worried me at the time.

Series 7. I loved Tikka To Ride, vaguely intelligent, some dodgy acting but the camera work and production values were great. But throughout this series the cut scenes and animations look very dodgy. Highlights: Tikka To Ride, Duct Soup (and I can say why I like this one) and the “hand, pick up the ball” gag. Low points: Blue, Stoke Me A Clipper (yawn, Ace Rimmer revisited).

Series 7 was the last one I saw, and I’m not sure I saw all of it first time around.

Series 8 I saw for the first time at Christmas, and came to it with no expectations. I hated Back in the Red. The gag with the ship going up the arse of a rat made my heart sink, it would be easier to say what I liked about those three. Erm. Hmm. The Cassandra episode was refreshing and I remember thinking, OK, so they took a while to get into it. Krytie TV was a bit broad but had some genuinely great lampoons in it. Pete and Pete II were best forgotten. Only the Good, well, if they had launched a series 9 off the back of that I think we could have safetly said that Series 8 was just an abheration.

So it isn’t a Red Dwarf is great apart from 7 + 8. It is that I was attracted to Red Dwarf in Series 1 and Series 2, and the elements of this series, apart from series 5 gradually diminish. The difference between 1,2,3,4,5 and 6,7,8 is like the difference between Extras and When the Whistle Blows. OK, not that bad, it just stopped being aimed at me.

(fixed some typos)

[Zombie Jim Undead]

> The difference between 1,2,3,4,5 and 6,7,8 is like the difference between Extras and When the Whistle Blows. OK, not that bad, it just stopped being aimed at me.

That is a superb description. Though I would split it: 1,2,3,4,5,6 and 7,8.

[TheLeen]

> Things the new Red Dwarf should avoid

I’m going to answer MORE Red Dwarf, LESS Starbug.

;p

[SertainDeaf]

Andrew, were you involved in series 7 or 8 somehow?

[Andrew]

> Andrew, were you involved in series 7 or 8 somehow?

Not at all (unless being in the VIII audience counts). I didn’t work for GNP until a year or so later.

[SertainDeaf]

But you like VIII and VII more than most seem to?

[Almighty_crj]

Oh, dance routines, songs, CGI dinosaurs and any other major budget draining gimmicks should be axed. They were all right when we were trying to woo Hollywood but the Movie funding never came.

However we are due an overtly expensive scene – the next full season we need ?100K+ to destroy the Arc de Triomphe for ‘Earth’. That episode will need Doug to rummage through the stock footage library to see how much he can use.

On the topic of things we’d like to see, I’d rather see more budget spent on model effects. Sets could use a bit of money to explore the universe.

Writing wise I’d like: rounding off the intriguing questions of series 1, The second polymorph getting out of Lister’s underpants drawer, ‘Identity Within’ becoming a 2 parter to be produced with Terry Farrell as Aura and finally ‘Earth’ to bring the curtains down… rather literally.

I’m not asking a lot… am I?

[Pete Part Three]

>But you like VIII and VII more than most seem to?

That’s not really true. VIII is very popular just not so much with the community here. VII seems to get a bad rep, regardless though.

[SertainDeaf]

>VIII is very popular just not so much with the community here.

Funny, I’ve never encountered anyone, when Red Dwarf comes up, who had a good thing to say about Series VIII. Not having seen it until relatively recently I wondered if it was Red Dwarf fatigue setting in but no, it really was a stinker in places. Perhaps if you only came to the series around 5 or 6 you wouldn’t think it stuck out like a sore thumb.

I quite like parts of 7. It just needed tighter direction, tighter editing and a better script for Kochanski.

[ChrisM]

Perhaps if you only came to the series around 5 or 6 you wouldn?t think it stuck out like a sore thumb.

I doubt it. Series 5 an 6 are a lot of fans favourites. Many love those series and dislike 7 and 8.

[SertainDeaf]

Well, we all take different things from comedy I suppose. There might even be some people out there who liked Gimme Gimme and Dinner Ladies, or think that Is It Legal is the ACME of comedy. Just because they are diametrically opposed to my tastes doesn’t make them wrong.

(yes it does ;-) ).

[Zombie Jim Undead]

My Hero was brilliant!

[locusceruleus]

>1. Avoid the hamming it up of KillCrazy et al from series 8?.

I’d say avoid the inclusion of the lot of ’em. It’s the core crew everyone will be eager to see again.

[Andrew]

The simple facts are that, yeah, there’s a vocal community who dislike VII and VIII with a passion. But there’s also a lot of separation – people who lump VI in with those two, or who hate Series I, or who dislike VII but find VIII entertaining.

Still, my personal take is that that community tends to be mostly ‘fans’ rather than ‘viewers’. The people who get into heated discussions about which Rimmer is the real one, who know who wrote what, and who post those opinions on fan sites.

People who watch TV and buy DVDs, but don’t necessarily know that, say, Rob and Doug split up, make up a majority of the viewership, a majority of the sales. As with any franchise, if you sold only to the fans, you’d never make your money back.

If you only encountered people who dislike VIII, fair enough. My sense is that happens a lot online, and less often in person. When I meet people, it tends to be about 50/50 as to whether they like the show at all, then 50/50 as to whether they noticed any difference towards the end.

Still, not all fans disliked the series. VIII, in particular got a LOT of great reviews (better than most series, in fact, which a lot of ‘back to its best’ stuff from people like SFX magazine). Ratings went up at a time when ratings were starting to fall. And the DVD sales testify that, in fact, people wanted them in their collections.

I do feel VII and VIII are a different show. They just happen to be a show that I like a lot. I think they’re good TV, rich in invention and ideas – and (Nanarchy aside) they make me laugh. Which is an opinion I had long before the job became relevant – proof of which you can find in my old fan-submitted reviews in the Club magazine.

[Andrew]

> There might even be some people out there who liked Gimme Gimme and Dinner Ladies, or think that Is It Legal is the ACME of comedy

Man, you just listed three very good shows. Thus, I guess, making the point!

[Turk Thrust]

I think that as Series VII and VIII are the only series to have been written by Doug without Rob, it’s only natural that people would be worried about perceived errors being replicated in the new eps.

Personally I hope that the 2 new eps have a much stronger script editor as I think Series VIII had some good gags in it but also some terrible ideas and lots of unnecessary lines.

Ideally I would cut Kochanski altogether but if she is included then I hope Doug makes her into a more well rounded character rather than just a stereotypical male image of what a woman is.

I hope also that there is a return to more subtlety and pathos too. Doug said in one of the DVD interviews that maybe it was a shame that that had been lost so there seems a chance it will return.

[Jonsmad]

That’s a very true post from you Andrew about most fandom circles. It’s the same in the band fandom circles I move in, there are disscusions of set lists often with just as small an audience focus without ever mentioning the more casual or genuine large number of fans enjoying the subject with less microscope analysis or regularity, but still taking genuine joy in the subject.

Fan’s in the middle of things tend to often think their voice is more informed but forget they are surrounded by ring upon ring of audience that the producer of the subject is just as interested in pleasing, or targeting. I hope the new dwarf specials bring even wider circles of interest to red dwarf.

Andrew you look at the whole dartboard when others are talking just the bull.

[John Hoare]

Another vote here for loving Gimme Gimme Gimme, dinnerladies, and Is It Legal? – and I hate VII/VIII! I especially think Gimme is a misunderstood show – I really didn’t like the first episode, so didn’t watch any more – and then my girlfriend persuaded me to watch it again a few years later, and it just clicked.

But yeah, I think Andrew’s right – there are shitloads of people who love VII and/or VIII. Including people on this very forum. I will never understand it, but there are more than enough people who loved it. And yes, it’s important not to always lump the two series together – there are people who love one but not the other, or who don’t like VI either, or even people who only like the first two series…

So the question for me, personally, isn’t about any of that. It’s just the simple fact that VII and VIII turned Dwarf into a show that just wasn’t for me. At all. Will the new specials be a show that I will love again? That’s what I worry about, in the end – it’s not about taking what I think and applying it to anyone else, it’s just a simple matter of whether I love the show or not.

And I really really hope I do.

[James]

There something at least, that without VII & VIII there wouldn’t be so much discussion and conjecture over the show, surely this a good thing?

[Paul Muller]

It does strike me as odd that the two series seem to get lumped together when people voice their gripes about Red Dwarf, as they’re so different in style and content.

Anyway, I don’t mean to keep going on about VIII – I’ve got my issues with it, but I don’t want anyone to think that I’m making a dig at the people who did like it by any means – I’m just voicing my own frustrations with the last series, which, after all, is what online communities like this are for I suppose.

[Danny Stephenson]

No more nude transformation scenes.

Please.

I quite liked “DNA” :)

[Paul Muller]

Despite previous ranting about knob gags, the ‘double polaroid’ scene still makes me giggle like a schoolgirl.

[Andrew]

I’m seeing this on a James Bond board right now – people talking about boycotts based on the new song, about how dropping the catchphrases means upsetting the fans, which – oh boy – ‘they will regret’. Well no, they won’t. Not if they entertain everyone else. The appeasement of a vocal minority really shouldn’t be anyone’s priority.

It’s easy to dismiss that distinction as populist versus artistic, or as unthinking versus critically aware. It’s easy to dismiss people who don’t know who the writers are, say, as unqualified to judge. But I genuinely think the critical fanbase is just as given to what could be seen as unthinking rhetoric.

For example, there’s no shortage of fan reviews for the I to VI DVDs that mention how much they hated VII and VIII. I’m not convinced every one of those mentions was justified in reviewing that content. (Though I don’t dismiss all of them, context is relevant.) The constant running jokes of ‘Series VII was shit’ do nothing for me, but they help the group feel like they have something in common. At the same time, ironically, they alienate themselves from others – because the flippant, scathing comment is only funny if you agree with it.

Which is to say, isn’t it enough to be bonded over something? Must we sub-divide ourselves into factions? Can’t the (admittedly repugnant) Craig Is Not Bond campaign calm down? A few movies, over a few years, enjoyed by a great many? Do you really need to separate from the OTHER fans of a 40-year franchise? Do you really need to mount a hateful campaign? Is it making any difference at all?

(The myth that Firefly’s DVD sales is what got the film funded isn’t really the case – but examples like that fuel fans’ opinion that they made something happen…and so are entitled to a piece of it. That sense of entitlement is part of the problem, too. Because no, what you’re entitled to is this: you get to watch the DVD you paid for. Fandom is not altruistic by nature – it’s barely symbiotic, but often becomes parasitic.)

Dismissing the whole of any work seems simplistic to me. You never see VIII-haters talking at length about the impressive imagination on display in those series, of things being done right. Likewise, the faction of Bond fans who dismiss the whole of Moonraker for its admitted idiocy are choosing to overlook a myriad good qualities – not the least of which is how well the film gets Bond into a credible space-based setting.

When the simplistic summaries come in, the throwaway dismissals, a fanbase is in no position to feel superior. The comment “people who think they like this are deluding themselves because they’re fans” is, in a nutshell, why ‘listening to the fans’ has to become a exercise in heavy filtering.

For me “Things the new Dwarf should avoid” is a negative way to go about celebrating your franchise of choice. And in such a small group it can’t help but lean towards existing biases that we’re all kinda aware of already. It comes with a vague agenda – to complain.

I like my fandom more positive – “What would you LIKE to see?”

(As an aside, I’d love a non-vitriolic discussion sometime on the merits and flaws of VII and VIII, but I’ve yet to find a forum to achieve it…aside, actually, from sat in the bar at Dimension Jump.)

[John Hoare]

It does strike me as odd that the two series seem to get lumped together when people voice their gripes about Red Dwarf, as they?re so different in style and content.

I think they get lumped together because more people in fandom have an issue with either one or the other or both than the first six series, so it’s just an easy shorthand. But no, it’s not really ideal to treat them as one series in in-depth discussions.

Despite previous ranting about knob gags, the ?double polaroid? scene still makes me giggle like a schoolgirl.

Knob gags are great, if they’re done well. Problem I have with VIII is how badly a lot of it is done.

Gah, VII/VIII debates are like a scab that I can’t stop picking…

[Turk Thrust]

> Dismissing the whole of any work seems simplistic to me. You never see VIII-haters talking at length about the impressive imagination on display in those series, of things being done right. Likewise, the faction of Bond fans who dismiss the whole of Moonraker for its admitted idiocy are choosing to overlook a myriad good qualities – not the least of which is how well the film gets Bond into a credible space-based setting.

I respectfully disagree that you don’t ever see people rationally talking about the merits of those 2 series. Quite often, including in this thread, people mention good jokes, ideas, episodes etc. from the last 2 series. If some people feel that the bad outweighs the good though then obviously comments about the negative aspects will be mentioned more.

Similarly with Bond, many people are able to talk about the plusses and minuses of the Moore era. Particularly the hardcore fans I find.

> For me ?Things the new Dwarf should avoid? is a negative way to go about celebrating your franchise of choice. And in such a small group it can?t help but lean towards existing biases that we?re all kinda aware of already. It comes with a vague agenda – to complain.

But then posters could, and probably would, just make the same comments in different clothes. For example, instead of talking about not making the mistakes of VII and VIII they would talk about getting back to the heights of the first 6 series.

Also, as previously mentioned, it is inevitable that talk of new Dwarf will mention old series and as Doug only wrote VII and VIII without Rob then those are the 2 most relevant series to talk about.

> I like my fandom more positive – ?What would you LIKE to see??

The nature of these boards is to talk about negative things quite often though isn’t it. For example, in the thread that you started the other day you expended 90% of your time talking about how much Ricky Gervais sucks and much less time praising British cinema. That’s the way it goes.

[John Hoare]

Dismissing the whole of any work seems simplistic to me. You never see VIII-haters talking at length about the impressive imagination on display in those series, of things being done right.

I’m not sure that’s quite true. I certainly, have talked in the past about the positive qualities of VIII, and other people certainly have done the same on here. I think it just feels like that because there is more stuff about the negative aspects.

But I think that’s in the end, people’s overall conclusion about a show overpowers all else. In all honesty, it doesn’t matter to me much that VIII has positive qualities – because I don’t enjoy it because I think the bad stuff overpowers all else. That’s really the nub of the matter about the series for me – and so that’s the bit I’ll talk more about.

For me ?Things the new Dwarf should avoid? is a negative way to go about celebrating your franchise of choice. And in such a small group it can?t help but lean towards existing biases that we?re all kinda aware of already. It comes with a vague agenda – to complain.

But I do think it also comes from a natural place – people who did feel like VII and/or VIII didn’t do much for them. Which is an unpleasant thing for any fan to have to go through – their favourite show turning into something they’re not keen on.

I don’t think most of it comes from a place where people are being negative for the sake of it – I think it comes purely from a sense of worry about whether they’re going to like the new stuff or not. Which is understandable.

[Paul Muller]

I think Andrew’s right that perhaps we shouldn’t be going about this so negatively, but I’m not sure the James Bond comparison is particularly valid, not for me anyway.

The fact that I don’t really like the last series doesn’t mean that I don’t still love Red Dwarf – I totally do.

And although I have complaints about some of the writing and ideas within VIII, I still have massive respect for Doug Naylor and I’m genuinely excited about the upcoming specials.

To be honest, I don’t think a bit of bitching about a series which aired 10 years ago is quite the same as mounting a hate campaign against one actor in particular, a la ‘Craig is Not Bond’

[Pete Part Three]

>Likewise, the faction of Bond fans who dismiss the whole of Moonraker for its admitted idiocy are choosing to overlook a myriad good qualities – not the least of which is how well the film gets Bond into a credible space-based setting.

Moonraker isn’t a film I particularly enjoy and, despite having it on DVD, I don’t think I’ve watched it in years. It’s heavily flawed and I think there are few merits. I think I enjoyed it as much as, um lets say, Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull.

>Dismissing the whole of any work seems simplistic to me.

I seem to remember you reviewing Indy 4 on NTS and being rather harsh. In fact, I don’t seem to recall you having much good to say about it at all.

And fair enough. You obviously didn’t like it, so why should you spend a review listing all the good points if the overall effect it left on you was one of anger and annoyance.

If someone asked me what I thought of Date Movie, I’d tell them it was shit and they shouldn’t bother watching it. I wouldn’t say “Alyson Hannigan is as cute as a button though and she’s always worth watching”, because as cute as she is, she couldn’t salvage the rest of an awful film.

As an Indy fan, you shouldn’t be expected to dismiss flaws and love something unconditionally just because it has the title “Indiana Jones and the” as part of the title.

And the irritation that is apparent in your review for Indy 4 (whether you’ve cooled on it or not) is kind of where I am with Red Dwarf VIII.

>You never see VIII-haters talking at length about the impressive imagination on display in those series, of things being done right.

Because we hate it, hence your term “VIII haters”. It’s worse than Moonraker. And Indy 4.

[Andrew]

> I respectfully disagree that you don?t ever see people rationally talking about the merits of those 2 series.

To be fair, I simplified terribly there, you’re (both) right.

> But then posters could, and probably would, just make the same comments in different clothes. For example, instead of talking about not making the mistakes of VII and VIII they would talk about getting back to the heights of the first 6 series.

Indeed. Though I think the difference is important – and more likeable.

> Also, as previously mentioned, it is inevitable that talk of new Dwarf will mention old series and as Doug only wrote VII and VIII without Rob then those are the 2 most relevant series to talk about.

Oh, sure.

> The nature of these boards is to talk about negative things quite often though isn?t it. For example, in the thread that you started the other day you expended 90% of your time talking about how much Ricky Gervais sucks and much less time praising British cinema. That?s the way it goes.

I’m not saying I’m somehow separate from all this – though in that instance I was asked to justify one aside of the argument rather than the other. (Had I been asked “What other good British films are there? isn’t that list pretty well all of them?”, THAT”S what I’d have come back on.)

[Andrew]

> And the irritation that is apparent in your review for Indy 4 (whether you?ve cooled on it or not) is kind of where I am with Red Dwarf VIII.

Which is fair enough. But my point is that HAVING that opinion, coming from a place of fandom with it, doesn’t entitle anyone to feel ‘better’ than the non-fan audience. The bemoaning is fine enough, it’s the “and therefore the brand should listen to us as we insist on changes” thing that bugs me.

[Pete Part Three]

>The bemoaning is fine enough, it?s the ?and therefore the brand should listen to us as we insist on changes? thing that bugs me

This I heavily agree with. Doug seemed to listen to reaction to Series VII and gave us a Series VIII that was extremely different in terms of stories and tone. My opinions on VIII will tell you whether I thought he should have paid much attention to the fans.

I don’t think the show (or any show) is in the right territory when it’s pandering to fans (hence my dislike of Emohawk and why a Future Echoes conclusion would serve any purpose other than alienating newcomers). It just ends up giving us fan-fiction.

But I don’t think you can judge people harshly if the have strong feelings on where they want the franchise to go and want to voice it on one of a dwindling number of outlets. It goes with the territory of being a fan. We can’t help it.

[Author]

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