Things the new Red Dwarf should avoid

[SertainDeaf]

I’m sure most of us want the new Red Dwarf episodes to be a success. As they haven’t started filming I was thinking it might be an ideal time to give them a list of things to avoid in the acting, locations and script. A collection of worst moments. Moments you find yourself skipping over.

Something like:

1. Avoid the hamming it up of KillCrazy et al from series 8″.
2. Never ever repeat the screensaver and Rimmer song guff.

Topic

[Andrew]

> it?s the ?and therefore the brand should listen to us as we insist on changes? thing that bugs me.

Well, that and the “people who like this are deluded” thing.

Sorry, I didn’t mean to kick off a whole VII/VIII thing. It was meant to be about the way fandom can often see its criticism as ‘more valid’ than Joe Soap’s. And then I lost it a bit.

[Paul Muller]

*group hug*

Let the Series VII/VIII argument be buried….

…

…

…

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UNTIL NEXT TIME.

[Turk Thrust]

In the spirit of talking about what we would like to see, I would hope to see just the 5 main characters and not Ace, Hollister, Kochanski, the Dibbley family etc. 2 episodes is not that much time so I hope that they are both driven by the main characters and the plot rather than bringing on characters for cameos unless they are integral to the plot.

I also hope that the characters’ ages are referred to and that they are allowed to grow old fairly gracefully. I also pray that the characters actually feel authentic.

The main thing that I’d like though is to not feel like I’ve watched The Legacy of Red Dwarf after the eps have finished. But if the best material from the movie script is used then that shouldn’t happen if it’s as good as has been suggested.

[Dave]

>I loved Tikka To Ride

It’s bizarre, but that’s the only thing you said that I agree with

[TheLeen]

>1. Avoid the hamming it up of KillCrazy et al from series 8?.

> I?d say avoid the inclusion of the lot of ?em. It?s the core crew everyone will be eager to see again.

I always enjoyed the side characters. That’s one reason why I was happy series VIII took place on board of the Red Dwarf again.

But two episodes won’t be enough time to set up any characters of the “regular side cast” type properly, so I’d focus on the main cast (but I include Hollister there).

If it was an entire new series, I’d be all for the side characters, old and possibly new ones!

[SertainDeaf]

> it?s the ?and therefore the brand should listen to us as we insist on changes? thing that bugs me.
> Well, that and the ?people who like this are deluded? thing.

Or that “people who disagree with me are have psychological defect x/y/z” or are suffering from delusions of grandeur. Apart from our natural need to eat and shit one other immutable law of human beings is that we all have opinions. Not every criticism is a threat along the juvenile “lets boycott Bond” line.

“Sorry, I didn?t mean to kick off a whole VII/VIII thing. It was meant to be about the way fandom can often see its criticism as ?more valid? than Joe Soap?s. And then I lost it a bit.”

Who thinks that, on this board? Is it required?

I joined this board because people on it didn’t seem up their arses like your average fan board does.

Telling someone like Doug, who by this stage will doubtless have scripts ready, what individuals want to see is pointless. Telling him what to avoid still gives him creative freedom, if he wants to listen.

“Yay, I want to see Daleks! I want to see 1000 elephants! I want to see the back of Krytens head in every shot! I want to see nostril hair close camera work and high contrast lighting! I want more boobs and knob gags! Lets have monster of the week back again!”

Why? Because he already has his ideas, and I don’t want to watch a bunch of crap that any person on the street can come up with, I want something from the superb imagination of Doug Naylor (if he wants to run it by Rob Grant then its up to him, I don’t get the mystical power that people seem to give the combination as together they made as many mistakes as apart).

If you leave the creativity up to the writer/actors/directors what does that leave you with? What feedback should an audience ever give? Well they get enough plaudits on fan sites to keep them warm to the end of eternity. They could just rub their hands at their ratings. But we all know that ratings, whilst great, and applause whilst fun at the time doesn’t really cut the mustard.

If you are in the precarious position of Grant Naylor Productions, needing to build momentum up again in order to have another swing at a series, a movie et al you are surely in the business of building up goodwill and a reputation. You want your last chance (and this is surely it) to relaunch the brand you are trying to sell to set the right message.

You want people to say, “fuck me, that Red Dwarf 9, we want to see more than that, they really nailed it!”.

And who are the they?

No more than the word of mouth opinion, the views of influential critics like Charlie Brooker whose opinions are more or less tuned in with the 20 and 30, and not your average 5 line TV quick review. Want you don’t want heard is people pissing in the tent from outside afterwards about some twatty Rimmer song or how the show just found puny excuses to re-run old gags and old characters being extra Zany. Stuff that you could just as easily -if you had known or listened to your inner voice after slaving over far too many scripts this year – have dropped in favour of other material.

Pretending that Series VII and VIII were shining examples of Red Dwarf and its just self elevated fans being uber snobby about it might help Doug Naylor sleep at night and give VII and VIII fans a warm fuzzy glow of self righteousness, but it is needlessly dismissive if not a bit snotty.

For my part, I tried to watch series VIII again last night with Andrews’ comments in mind. Thinking perhaps, like Series VII which I happen to find quite watchable, I’d been influenced against it.

I got part the way through episode two before having to switch it off in disgust. I made a list of what was wrong, surprisingly it wasn’t the script (although it had problems):

1. The camera work & scene lighting eyestrain irritating.
2. Too close to characters in scenes. Pull the camera back a foot for fucks sake!
3. The music was just offputting.
4. Some of the extra actors just hammed it up in the most stupid way.

I even made a note at what time my appreciation of the episodes started to drop.

That comes down to, what, direction and production problems right? Perhaps Red Dwarf 8 just wasn’t aimed at me or all the others who have major problems with it. I can accept that. The writers can chase whatever audience they want, nothing special about me!

The defensiveness about Series 8 and the criticisms worry me slightly; I wonder does Andrew know something we don’t? Is he trying to short circuit criticism about it … perhaps because series 9 is more of the same? Eeek.

Bollocks to art, it just has to be funny, good, and re-establish the rep. It has to respect the audience or it will get the audience demographic it deserves and go nowhere. Red Dwarf had to fight an uphill battle against bigotry first time around, that obnoxious Guardian article shows that it has to do it again and fight against the damage it did to its own reputation and the Benny Hill in Space image that people who should know better seem to want to give it. You want it to gain advocates.

I don’t want Red Dwarf Series 9 to just succeed because of my own selfish nature – although I admit thats there – I want it to succeed because it has left a big gaping hole in the side of British comedy (and not just sci-fi comedy), and because I know Doug Naylor can do it.

[SertainDeaf]

>>I loved Tikka To Ride
>It?s bizarre, but that?s the only thing you said that I agree with

Thats just dandy.

[locusceruleus]

It’s only natural that after ten years of anticipating the return of their favourite show in one format or another, people will be worried that it might disappoint them, especially since the last 2 series did indeed disappoint a lot of fans.

>It does strike me as odd that the two series seem to get lumped together when people voice their gripes about Red Dwarf, as they?re so different in style and content.

I couldn’t agree more. I’ve always liked Series 7 – it was experimental, and ambitious if not always successfully executed.

I wonder what sort of budget the show will have, being on Dave? It should be interesting to see what kind of direction these 2 episodes will take – comedy drama, something a bit epic, dialogue heavy, character based stuff…maybe something completely different.

Either way, its nice to have something to talk about.

[Andrew]

> But we all know that ratings, whilst great, and applause whilst fun at the time doesn?t really cut the mustard.

In other words ‘It’s the opinions of people like me that really matter’?

> Telling someone like Doug, who by this stage will doubtless have scripts ready, what individuals want to see is pointless. Telling him what to avoid still gives him creative freedom, if he wants to listen.

So ‘I’d love to see this’ is damaging, but ‘don’t include this’ is liberating?

No offence, but I think this kinda illustrates my point – ‘My form of criticism is useful and should be taken on board…not like those other forms.’

> The defensiveness about Series 8 and the criticisms worry me slightly; I wonder does Andrew know something we don?t?

Do you have any idea how offensive this is?

[SertainDeaf]

>> But we all know that ratings, whilst great, and applause whilst fun at the time doesn?t really cut the mustard.
>In other words ?It?s the opinions of people like me that really matter??

I carefully explained what I meant by that later on. If my criticisms are not interesting or useful then they will be disregarded, I’m fine with that. The mustard I was referring needing to be cut is quite clear – and that is with the influential. Equally clearly that does not equal me.

>> Telling someone like Doug, who by this stage will doubtless have scripts ready, what individuals want to see is pointless. Telling him what to avoid still gives him creative freedom, if he wants to listen.
>So ?I?d love to see this? is damaging, but ?don?t include this? is liberating?
>No offence, but I think this kinda illustrates my point – ?My form of criticism is useful and should be taken on board?not like those other forms.?

No offence, but that is just your spin on my point. I’m sure I don’t have to break it down further for you, or do I? Try not to conflate “pointless” with “damaging”.

>> The defensiveness about Series 8 and the criticisms worry me slightly; I wonder does Andrew know something we don?t?
>Do you have any idea how offensive this is?

I suspect no more or no less offensive than anything you have said that others don’t want to hear. I’m sorry you feel offended by it, but tough. It is the impression you are giving me. I have to ask why you are wandering around with a high pressure anti-critic firehose in your hand.

[Zombie Jim Undead]

I wonder if Andrew is going to have had a ruck with everyone on the board by the end of the week.

[Paul Muller]

Steady on, Jim…

[Zombie Jim Undead]

Just saying is all. There’s a lot of crossness going on of late. It can’t be good for the humours.

[Paul Muller]

I totally agree.

http://www.ganymede.tv/forum/2008/09/things-we-would-like-to-see-in-the-new-dwarf-specials

Shazam.

[Zombie Jim Undead]

Nice!

[Dave]

The return of the Holly Hop Drive

[Phil]

Our friends the genitals.

[Zombie Jim Undead]

There’s never any need for knackers.

[Zombie Jim Undead]

And as long as Craig isn’t visibly mouthing other people?s lines I?ll be happy.

[pfm]

> and (Nanarchy aside) they make me laugh

It’s good to see that not even teh Andy Ellzzardz can praise that abomination of an episode.

Though I honestly never think ‘god I hate this’ when I watch ANY Red Dwarf (OK, perhaps the hilarious chewing-gum-sticks-hilariously-to-things scene.). If someone seriously has so many fucking issues with Dwarf, whether it’s post-VI, post-V or whatever, why don’t you go and, I don’t know, take interest in something else? EDIT BY JOHN HOARE: WARNING. EXTREMELY NSFW LINK.

[ChrisM]

>Though I honestly never think ?god I hate this? when I watch ANY Red Dwarf

I agree. I don’t hate any of the Red Dwarf series although I may prefer some series over others (and even in the ‘least favoured’ series there are some wonderful episodes… and in the ‘least favoured’ episodes’ there are some great scenes.)

[Pete Part Three]

>If someone seriously has so many fucking issues with Dwarf, whether it?s post-VI, post-V or whatever, why don?t you go and, I don?t know, take interest in something else?

Maybe because they love the “early” days so much and still delight in re-watching it and discussing those episodes?

Or is that just grounds for a one-way ticket to a disgusting website* too?
__

* I mean; I’m no prude Monkey, but FFS.

[Andrew]

> It?s good to see that not even teh Andy Ellzzardz can praise that abomination of an episode.

Well to be fair I’m only saying it as an agent of a company in order to convince other people about it. Or something.

[Ridley]

* I mean; I?m no prude Monkey, but FFS.

That seems to be the idea.

—

…I liked Nanarchy.

[Pete Part Three]

>That seems to be the idea.

There’s a difference between shocking for the purpose of a “joke” and, well, just linking to an illegal website. What’s next? Kiddie-porn websites for people who didn’t like Last Human, or is that a step too far?

[ChrisM]

I liked pretty much all series 7. Some of the repetitive whining irritated me a bit at the time (i.e. Kryten’s jealousy), but that doesn’t bother me now.

I think the sudden change with Rimmer leaving and Kochanski inclusion jarred a bit to start with, but that was no fault of Chloe Annette. (She performed very well.) It was simply a matter of getting used to the change, and in hindsight, I’m fine with it. I actually quite liked the reaction of the other crewmembers trying to cope with “Officer Bud-babe”. (I used to think Cat was saying “butt-babe”, and I wondered why Kochanski wasn’t offended by his constant references to her bottom.)

Duct Soup bored me a bit at the time, yet I realize there are some great gags in that episode. Lister’s claustrophobia, the little dialogue between he and Kochanski as she snaps him out of it and the following bit with Cat “This claustrophobia thing, so were you born with it or are you just kinda sissy?” And the “What’s that noise?” sequences. “Is it an object hitting Cat’s head kinda noise?”

Great stuff.

[Ridley]

There?s a difference between shocking for the purpose of a ?joke? and, well, just linking to an illegal website. What?s next? Kiddie-porn websites for people who didn?t like Last Human, or is that a step too far?

Well I thought my joke was better. :s

—

I think Dwarf should avoid suddenly pulling out a concept like the mirror universe from nowhere. It can be assumed Kochanski came across one in her dimension but it would have better if she’d actually said so. Or something.

[mick]

No being shit.
Of all the things they need to do with new Dwarf I think not being shit would be the top of my list.
Look back at, oh I dont know *insert series VII episode here* and pretty much just not be like that, ie. shit.

I hope very much my ideas are taken on board.

[Zombie Jim Undead]

You can love some of Dwarf and detest other bits. The idea that you either love something throughout its entire lifespan or hate it entirely (or, worse still, shouldn’t be allowed to say that you enjoy it) is quite frankly bonkywonk.

[locusceruleus]

> If someone seriously has so many fucking issues with Dwarf, whether it?s post-VI, > post-V or whatever, why don?t you go and, I don?t know, take interest in
> something else?

Ah, you mean in the same way that if you don’t like a particular song by your favourite band, you should never listen to them, go see them or discuss them again.

Flawless logic AND sharing a favourite website? Monsieur, you are really spoiling us.

[Jonathan Capps]

I hate everyone.

[Jonathan Capps]

Of course the one thing I REALLY don’t want is Iain Lee doing the continuity for the new episodes.

[Seb Patrick]

Actually, I’d love that. Because he’d be getting paid to say something good, because it’s Dave’s first ever self-produced show (I think?), so they’d have to big it up in the continuity. “And now, on Dave, the long-awaited return of a comedy classic… it’s the brilliant return of Red Dwarf”. And he’s such a fucking whore (and so short of work) that he’d take the money for doing it. And then we could record it and put it on the site and make him look like a hypocritical twat.

So, yes. More than up for Iain Lee doing the continuity. Does he even do continuity for Dave already? If not, it’s a good time for him to start. I’m sure he can fit it into his busy schedule.

[Jonathan Capps]

> And then we could record it and put it on the site and make him look like a hypocritical twat.

Oooh, good point! Ok, my mind has been changed.

Yeah, he does the vast majority of the current Dave continuity. Predictably it’s objectionable, unfunny shite. The chances of him doing New Dwarf are large.

[Phil]

>And he?s such a fucking whore (and so short of work)

Made me laugh…probably because I’m absolutely sure he’s still reading this forum.

[hummingbird]

>So, yes. More than up for Iain Lee doing the continuity.

I second that.
Should we start a petition?

[ChrisM]

Heh, I think I recognized his voice on there a little while ago. (I’ve got that ‘Rich Hall’s Fishing Show’ on in the background right now. Although I admit I’m not really watching it.)

[Ian Symes]

When Dave launched, it was supposed to be a different shit comedy-related celebrity doing the pre-recorded continuity every week. Then they ran out, and just kept Iain Lee on a loop. He’s cheap. Very cheap.

[mick]

>just kept Iain Lee on a loop

Reliable sources inform me me that they do the same in Guantanamo Bay.

[John Hoare]

It’d be nice if Dave did some live continuity in primetime, as the ratings are going so well. E4 manages it!

[Jonathan Capps]

> It?d be nice if Dave did some live continuity in primetime, as the ratings are going so well. E4 manages it!

And yet they *still* have the shit, non-sensical Scrubs introductions.

“Next we’re scrubbing in at The Sacred Heart!”

[Dave]

Thanks to Dave I’ve discovered my Dad doesn’t comprehend Roman numerals, he called me to say he’d just sat through an episode of Red Dwarf 9, and it wasn’t a patch on 4. Turns out he meant 8 wasn’t a patch on 6.

I’m wondering whether anyone actually taught me how Roman numerals work or did I just learn it from Red Dwarf video covers/Star Trek films?

[ChrisM]

I learned them at school. I can only count so far though but up until X I’m ok. (Actually higher than that including the Vs Is etc…) I’m not sure where the Cs and Ls come in (although I think C is one hundred. No doubt I could google and find out. Which I might after this… I’m curious now and obviously easily fascinated.)

[ChrisM]

One google later….

I was right about the C, and apparently L is 50!

A chart here.

Apparently there’s a D (500) and an M (1000) too.

[Andrew]

> L is 50!

I think you’ll find Jean-Paul Sartre said L is other people.

[Zombie Jim Undead]

No, that was Popeye the Sailorman.

*mixed quote special*

[Jonathan Capps]

> *mixed quote special*

It’s so easy to get those two dudes first in the shower room!

[Zombie Jim Undead]

Hey, I’m so excited all six of my nipples are all fossilised and stuff.

[Dave]

This baby’s crashed more times than a triple fried egg butty with chili sauce and chutney.

[James]

Are you absolutely sure sir? It does mean changing the plastic underpants.

[Author]

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