What’s people’s problem with Series 8?

[my brook is babbled]

I may be tempting fate with my first forum thread with this topic. I can understand people’s annoyance with Series 7, Rimmer leaving, filmic look and Kochanski, etc. but what’s people’s beef with Series 8? (No Posts Please Norman)

Topic

[Connell]

The things that got me with 8 were the cheap non-dwarf jokes thrown in there just to make laughs, and the slightly more major fact that the crew were alive again. Some stuff was great, e.g the period scene.., and one of my most early Dwarf memories.. the ‘Who fancies a kebab?!’ scene. But then there’s also awful stuff like the Readers Digest gag. In any other sitcom it would’ve been a great laugh, but in Dwarf it just contradicts anything said in previous series, and in a way kind of establishes that there is still life on earth, bothering to send junk mail out to people. I certainly think it was good of Grant Naylor to take into account how the fans didn’t like the direction the show was going in, and they did their best to get it back to basics, but it’s just small things wrong with it that really get me. Back in the Red certainly didn’t need to be 3 parts either, in my opinion. Cassandra is a great episode with a fantastic Dwarf plotline, and then there’s stuff like Krytie TV. I wouldn’t say it’s a good series, I wouldn’t say it’s bad series. All Dwarf is good, it just has its pros and cons.

[Carlito]

> it just contradicts anything said in previous series, and in a way kind of establishes that there is still life on earth, bothering to send junk mail out to people.

I don’t think it contradicts anything. Better Than Life established that post pods that had been sent millions of years ago could still catch up with the ship.

[Carlito]

I’ve defended VIII in the past, but not with as much passion as I-VI naturally.

My main beefs are sentiments shared with many others.

* Some lame gags finding their way through the quality control (Nostrilomo??)
* A lot of annoyingly over-explained or tacked-on jokes
* Far too many instances of the characterisation being off-kilter.
* Too many cliff-hangers and multi-part stories, and ultimately only one episode (Cassandra) with a real Red Dwarf calibre plot which could have fitted into any series.

I’ll defend the prison setting, the resurrection of the crew, the CANARIES and many other elements that divide a lot of fans. But not the above.

[Connell]

>I don’t think it contradicts anything. Better Than Life established that post pods that had been sent millions of years ago could still catch up with the ship.

I agree that it had previously been established that post pods were arriving from millions of years ago, but the casual deliverance of the post as if it had arrived that morning, and the way its read as if Rimmer would still have a chance or redeeming a 3 million year old holiday scream lazy writing to me.

[Ben Paddon]

I imagine that’s internal ship mail, Connell.

Loved your work in Sliders and Stand By Me, by the way.

[Connell]

>I imagine that’s internal ship mail, Connell.

Ah yes, that frequently mentioned readers digest office on Nivelo 53.

And thankyou, it’s not often I get noticed for my other works since Kangaroo Jack..

[Plastic Percy]

Also, doesn’t Lister tell Rimmer that the competition letters are all pranks the guards are pulling in order to destroy prisoner morale?

[Connell]

> Also, doesn’t Lister tell Rimmer that the competition letters are all pranks the guards are pulling in order to destroy prisoner morale?

That could very well explain it, well done for pointing that out.
The joke’s still shit for Dwarf though.

[my brook is babbled]

Carlito I am intrigued by your comment “Far too many instances of the characterisation being off-kilter”, as I understand the other points you made, could you expand on this characterisation point?, cheers.

The biggest niggle for me though, is the lack of any of the Dwarfers appearing strange to Rimmer, as his character is supposed to be a new, alive Series 1-esque Rimmer, but he and they seem to treat him as before. I’m aware of “we’re giving you a completely new life” comments, etc.

It was a shame to see all those years of Rimmer “growing up” as it were being kinda thrown away.

[my brook is babbled]

Connell, thanks for your view, I don’t know if you agree but something I always picked up on was that I think Doug tried to make the show a bit more mainstream during series 8, thats always been my own view, as much as I love it, for my sins I still rate it as one of my favourite series, the drunk scene, an 83 year old dad and return my glass eye I love, maybe I appreciate more low-brow, general humour haha

[pfm]

VIII’s single biggest problem is that it THINKS it’s being Red Dwarf, it’s TRYING to be Red Dwarf, but it ISN’T…you know…Red Dwarf!

The setting, the fact that the crew are resurrected, the Rimmer situation being weird, it throws everything off-kilter, and for an entire series! The crew being back would have been a great 2 part episode idea. I’m sure it’s possible to edit an hourlong combining a cut-down BITR with the ending of Only The Good… and that’s all of the VIII setup we ever needed to experience!

[my brook is babbled]

“it ISN’T…you know…Red Dwarf!” I do think though , that the show did have to move on, it couldn’t become stale, the show had been stranded on Starbug for 2 series (although the setting didn’t affect the comedy, don’t get me wrong) and maybe Doug wanted a way to get Rimmer back in and explore something that had always intrigued “what if everyone didn’t die in The Beginning?”.

I hope the new series addresses the older age of the cast, especially between Lister and Rimmer (I saw non being filmed) as I think it would make for some very funny situations and conversations, I’d hope it to be moderated though so it doesn’t overshadow all the characters traits.

[Carlito]

> Carlito I am intrigued by your comment “Far too many instances of the characterisation being off-kilter”, as I understand the other points you made, could you expand on this characterisation point?, cheers.

Okay but only briefly and from the top of my head…

The relationship between Lister and Rimmer is a completely new, hitherto unseen dynamic. They are more like a pair of mischeivous pranksters in many episodes (most notably Pete Part 1) and display more of a camaraderie after just a few months in the Hole than Lister had with hologram Rimmer (the same man remember, minus maybe the death angst) after years of surviving hostile deep space.

The banter and relationship which was so amusing in the early years is gone. A victim of the changing relationship and thawing tensions between the actors? Issues with the writing and the consistency of it? The increasing popularity and therefore pressure of expectations put on the show and its cast?

It doesn’t help at all that the performances all round are far too ‘big’ – probably the novelty of being back in front of an audience again and the added pressure of the notion that ‘the live audience makes the actors funnier’ which was bandied around after the disappointing series VII. All subtlety was gone from the performances. See Chris Barrie’s facials in the opening scene alone for but one example.

Without having the time or inclination to turn this into an essay, you surely don’t need a list of examples to see that Rimmer in particular only barely resembles the character we knew in series I-VI. Lister degenerates into a naive dimwit for no apparent reason (the same guy who has displayed the wits to survive in space for years can’t do a child’s simple join-the-dots in one scene) yet still shows elements of the ‘evolved’ Lister too when it suits the writers. Kochanski’s character may have annoyed people in VII but at least it was fairly rounded, in VIII she becomes a complete irrelevance with barely a trace of her VII persona surviving. Holly just gets a few shoehorned gags rather than having a character in his own right (which, if you’ll recall, USED to be something along the lines of indignant, mischeivous, inept computer rather than the equivalent of a smartphone joke pop-up app.)

Some of the gaping flaws in logic were a little annoying (such as where was the nanobot Kochanski? and if they didn’t resurrect her because there was already a Kochanski, why did they resurrect Holly?) but I can ultimately excuse that because at the end of the day a writer can always explain away ANYTHING at the stroke of a keyboard – it’s his universe – but I’d rather the 30 mins was invested in making me laugh and putting an interesting plot together rather than needing to justify everything… which you can always do, somehow, so it should just be taken as read… unless its a huuuuge one, that really does need to be addressed, and which just gets ignored. When this happens, I just assume Kryten worked it out. Ahem.

Another negative aspect of VIII was the absolute lack of any real attempt to tackle sci-fi concepts in a humourous way, which is pretty much Red Dwarf’s claim to fame. The only sci-fi concepts that cropped up at all in VIII were expansions or retreads of previous ideas seen in the show, but even they were few and far between.

I’m going to stop now, I’m too tired.

[Jonsmad]

I watched VII first at my University group halls, but I quickly retreated to watching it alone in my room by a couple of episodes in, cus too many people were moaning that it was different now and that was spoiling it for me, by the end of VII I was a bit dissapointed with it too anyway and probably missing Rimmer. When VIII came on TV, we had just got a widescreen TV for the first time, I was watching it at home with my family (parents). We laughed at everything, we enjoyed the amazing look of the effects, from the new CGI rat, the star bug crash and later dinosaurs and dancing space ships, and enjoyed the adventure yarn of the series which felt well linked, if a little like it couldnt quite live up to this prison/crew back concept cus it didnt have quite enough episodes to explain it all. A few groaning gags aside (for me things like “posts arrived” being a crap visual pun, and why the heck jeremy beadle was the source of parody in a late 90’s sci fi set millions of years after his irelevance) I mostly felt the show looked great big new and also back to form. I loved it, cus it was brilliant.

Much later I joined this website, and over a long period of time they educated me on how “pantomime” the humour was in places, how the shows structures were lacking in two or three parters so that those episodes are not holistically as clever as previous self contained dwarf episodes. The crudeness of some things like krytens penis, and basketball hardons was deemed low brow, and the overall characterisation in this ensemble gang comedy was pointed out again with reference to the glory of previous dwarf episodes being so much more. The more I read the more the evidence was clear that on rewatching VIII was a different show to the one I really thought it was on first watching, It wasnt quite the return to form. It was better than VII in that it was a funny ship board sitcom again.
But then when judged in the whole cannon it cant really be considered on the whole as quite ranking as high as say, for me, most of series II to V, and most of I and VI either, give or take a few exceptions there for me.

[Pete Part Three]

What makes Red Dearf great when it works: Good comedy, great plots, originality, truthful characterisation.

What is missing from Red Dwarf VIII : Good comedy, great plots, originality, truthful characterisation.

[Ridley]

I’d say VIII’s originality is mishandled rather than being entirely absent. Think it was Mr. Ellard who said he wanted a bottle episode and that probably would have helped the prison concept more. Say you lose a third of Back in the Red and have episode three just be Rimmer and Lister in their cell for half an hour (or Man to Man with Birdman) then you can have the Canaries introduced in the next episode to get them off the ship.

I’m in a similar to Mr. ‘smad in the seeing the flaws more now than on first broadcast. But I’m not crediting it to peer pressure. ;) Far too many gags based on repetition or overexplaining the joke. Could be interesting to see how much time you lose if you clip most of them.

May be because I was introduced to the show through VII but I didn’t like the sidelining of Kochanski and The Cat which I assume was due to Rimmer returning. Holly didn’t get much either.

I still like the Blue Midget dance though, leave me alone.

(such as where was the nanobot Kochanski? and if they didn’t resurrect her because there was already a Kochanski, why did they resurrect Holly?)

Kryten’s nanobots brought back the ship and Holly’s were responsible for the crew, right? Kochanski isn’t brought back because there’s already one with Lister and the conehead Holly appears because the nanos have met the original.

[p2p_productions]

Series VIII in a nutshell, for me: Lifelong Dwarf fan, and I forgot to watch the final episode. :/

The series’ biggest problem as a whole seems to be consistency. Despite being a noble effort, with one or two memorable moments, overall, it was a step backwards. Red Dwarf at its best demonstrates how a television show *should* evolve. Each subsequent series (up to VII) builds upon the last in some shape or form. VIII almost feels like a faded memory – a throwback to some earlier series that never actually happened. Worryingly, at times, the show veers dangerously close to becoming the spoof it always promised not to be.

The characters don’t seem quite right. There’s very little logic to the situation, which makes for a very jarring viewing experience. The resurrected crew is clearly aware they are now three million years from home, but a command structure still exists onboard ship. Wouldn’t everyone start freaking out and mutiny? Red Dwarf is not a science vessel, it’s a commercial ship. The crew are mostly an assortment of miners, engineers, metallurgists and technicians. They don’t have a mission of exploration, as such, as they do a contract of employment. That contract is now null and void.

Above all, no-one seems to share Lister’s desire to return home, or find a new world to settle on. This could’ve made for some great conflict and comedy drama – do we continue to search for Earth, or join the rest of the crew on a new planet?

Furthermore, the only crewmembers who have any knowledge of this region of space are quickly thrown in jail without any kind of debrief (wait, there’s a jail?!) – the mostly-unhinged population of which are routinely armed with steyr AUG carbines and sent on high-risk missions to explore derelict spacecraft..? It just doesn’t make any kind of sense. And this coming from a show that introduced the otherwise entirely plausible, killer shami kebab and curry monster, among others.

Series VIII could’ve been so much more. But for whatever reason, it strayed from what made Red Dwarf so special in the first place. That is what made it so disappointing to me.

[Danny Stephenson]

It’s interesting hearing views from people who have JUST discovered Dwarf.

For those who saw Red Dwarf VIII first. I envy you. I envy you because anything you see afterwards is more of less better than what you have seen, and your first memory is of something that you found enjoyable and have the rest of the series to enjoy along with it.

[Dax101]

if you nikpik about series 8 and logic problems then you could be here all day as i dont think doug was taking the show seriously at that point.

series 8 didnt feel like red dwarf it felt more like it could of been set in a school with rimmer and lister being the pranksters, the captain being the headmaster and cat,kryten and kochanski being the side friends that sometimes appeared.

i really do think doug was going through some ego trip at that point during the remastered series and series 8.

[p2p_productions]

‘Nitpicking’ suggests the above points are merely surface flaws. Maybe they are, but I see them as fundamental problems with the series as a whole. From a fan’s perspective, VIII failed for several reasons, but the logic of the story arc surely has to be a major contributing factor.

[Pete Part Three]

I disagree. There’s plenty wrong with VIII’s format and I found the decision to resurrect the crew very misguided…BUT had the show made me laugh and found time to tell some interesting stories within its new format (y’know beyond Lister and Rimmer get up to mischief or play basketball), I’d have “gone with it”.

[Phil]

>the conehead Holly

I still don’t know what the fuck was going on with that.

[Jonathan Capps]

> I still don’t know what the fuck was going on with that.

SMEGGHEAD.

[Ben Paddon]

I don’t mind the idea of the crew being resurrected – in fact I think it’s rather brilliant. The problem with Series VIII is that the lion’s share of the jokes either don’t work or are undone by over-doing the punchline, a fact that is compounded by Lister having to act distinctly out-of-character for some of his jokes to work.

I still think the “Knowledge is Power” gag is one of the best jokes in the entire show, though.

[MANI506]

My biggest problem with VIII is that the rest of the series doesn’t live up to what I consider to be a very promising and very funny first episode.

Captain Hollister is brilliant in episode one (I’m busting his ass down to tampon dispenser), the retro series one bunk room set is great, Kryten and Kochanski have that funny scene where Kryten throws away his notebook, Rimmer and Lister have some classic exchanges (knowledge is power… who said that?) only slightly ruined by over explanation (I’M LOOKING AT YOU FRENCH MOVIE STAR), Dr McClaren is a humorous supporting character and the final line of ‘The world loves a bastard’ is one of the strongest final lines of any episode.

It’s very frustrating for me because I was on such a high after Back In The Red part one and things just got worse as the artificial reality plot revealed itself and a lot of terribly forced exchanges crept in (theory of relativity being the all time low).

I think with series VII and VIII that there are very good six episode series to be made out of both of them and a lot of what went wrong could have been fixed in the edit. Series VIII in particular could have been so much better.

[HelloMabel]

I initially hated it, but bits of the series have grown on me over the years. I love that Kochanski gets to be much more a part of the team rather than a bitter, antagonistic transplant from another dimension a la VII. Then I wondered if Doug and the VII writing team did that on purpose so that her character would have room to grow in subsequent series.

Another thing that makes me happy in series VIII is the return of Rimmer and the bunkroom scenes, and above all the fact that the rest of the gang take Rimmer with them even though he effectively never had all the experiences they shared over the eight series.

[Kelly M]

When I was a kid series VII was the first time I watched Red Dwarf and I did find it amusing (mostly thinking “heehee, he’s got a funny head”). As I grew up I forgot about the show until my gran got me series I one Xmas and I was immediately hooked. By the time I got to series VII I realised that it just was not as funny as I remembered it and compared to the other series.
HOWEVER I still have some respect for it. Apart from the fact Pete is my least favourite story in Red Dwarf for obvious reasons that have been repeated many times on this board, the series does have some generally good moments. The bunk scenes for Rimmer and Lister always managed to bring a smile to my face mostly because they were funny, partly because I was just happy to see Rimmer again.
I love Back in the Red and Cassandra. They both feel like good old Dwarf with good plots and jokes.

[srmcd1]

I still get a kick out of Rimmer’s hypothetical apology note for Kochanski in Krytie TV. Just the way he says, “Three gob-smacking hours of steamy fun.”

The relationship between nano-Rimmer and the rest of the crew was summed up rather well in the “Remembering Rimmer” section of the official site. Brought up a lot of good points. If I may quote:

“The difference becomes clear quickly. While the aggravated relationship between Rimmer and Lister starts approximately where it left off – for Rimmer, at least – their confinement to prison is, in many ways, a zillion miles from their situation in previous series.

No more was Rimmer in place to keep Lister sane. Indeed, the pair soon become partners in crime, breaking prison regulations and playing dumb practical jokes on the guards. Called before Captain Hollister in the Pete two-parter, the two are more like best friends sent to the headmaster.

This, then, is a Rimmer who has chosen to aim his aggression outwards, at authority figures. Lister – and the rest of the Dwarfers – become people he has, in some ways, on his side. He has chosen to accept Lister.”

Beautiful analytical stuff, whoever wrote that.

[Phil]

>playing dumb practical jokes

I agree with that part.

[Ridley]

SMEGGHEAD.

The nanobots must have resurrected poo, too!

[Arlene Rimmer BSc SSc]

On the subject of characterization: Remember the Cat who still did things, well, like a cat, and the droll or humorous juxtaposition of feline behavior and thought with that of a human? Remember the Kryten who slowly built a personality for himself apart from cleaning things? One of my problems with VIII is that you see neither of these two characters. (Yes, there’s an argument to be made that the Cat’s characterization had been going downhill for several series at this point, but I feel that VIII represents a real nadir.) In VIII, we get a cheap-fashion-related-punchline dispenser who is occasionally Dwayne Dibbley, and a shrieking, clingy, needy housemaid who, we are occasionally reminded, is a robot. (And a robot with a penis, haw haw haw guffaw chuckle.) Lister and Rimmer were quite a bit off as well, as has been explained above, but there wasn’t a single major character spared this sort of distortion and simplification.

[pfm]

> the two are more like best friends sent to the headmaster.

I’ve always entertained the idea that they are, and always were, best friends, they just constantly rebel against it. If you asked either of them if the other was their bestie, or if they even liked them, they’d be disgusted by the notion! Though, if that were truly the case, why do they always share a bunk together?? They can’t live together but they can’t be apart either. They are meant to be!!

> until my gran got me series I one Xmas and I was immediately hooked.

Best. Gran. Ever. :D

[Connell]

> Remember the Cat who still did things, well, like a cat, and the droll or humorous juxtaposition of feline behavior and thought with that of a human?

Sometimes I forget Cat was even in series 8, he had so little to do, apart from the Blue Midget dance scene which the majority of people seem to deem one of series 8’s most disappointing moments.

[pfm]

> Lister and Rimmer were quite a bit off as well, as has been explained above, but there wasn’t a single major character spared this sort of distortion and simplification.

The comments from the set reports that made me happiest were those saying how the characters were spot on. Cat and Kryten acting like, well, themselves would be most refreshing.

[my brook is babbled]

There is an awful lot of animosity aimed at Series 8, but through the comments displayed here, it appears most people see it as, mainly, a mis-fire, something which could have been so much more and something that on second viewing was seen as a step down from what had come before. I think in trying to make up for the negative reaction to series 7 (which I don’t think is warranted) the series was weakened, in trying to evoke the pre-Starbug series, in sidelining Krytie and the Cat.

I still hugely enjoy it and I actually see the change in dynamic between Lister and Rimmer to be quite refreshing.

[si]

I remember recording the audio of Back in the Red parts one, two and three onto a C90 cassette. Ah, the things you do when you are but a young child of *ahem* 20.

[ori-STUDFARM]

I had (still have) the Series 1 and 2 audio on cassette. I used to listen to it on the machinary at work….I even laughed along at the visual gags (Lister getting ready in Kryten immediately springs to mind).

Now I listen to the audiobooks and podcasts all day….Radio died for me years ago!

[clem]

> VIII’s single biggest problem is that it THINKS it’s being Red Dwarf, it’s TRYING to be Red Dwarf, but it ISN’T…you know…Red Dwarf!

I quite like to think of VIII as the Red Dwarf equivalent to Gene Deitch era Tom and Jerry.

[Kris ‘Drivaaar’ Carter]

Apt. Horribly, horribly apt.

[Author]

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