Ashes to Ashes series 2

[Nakrophile]

Have just been shown this. I await.

Topic

[Ian Symes]

Chris had better get the chance to redeem himself in a massive way next week, otherwise that’s the worst bit of character development ever. Also, Alex Drake is SO FUCKING STUPID it hurts.

[SkyAndSun]

I think I really liked last night’s episode. Everyone acted extremely well. I could buy Chris being led astray. Alex burying the body though – I guess that kind of left me cold, because it seemed so random. Maybe the trouble is her personality is difficult to identify, which is a writing problem rather than an acting one (Keeley Hawes acts very well, I think). Perhaps that’s what makes Life on Mars superior, in my mind: from the start Sam was a strong, sympathetic character, but Alex has undergone too many character rewrites (the main one being apparently between season 1 and 2) for her character to be the same. This may change; and in other ways I think Ashes is a superior series – primarily because the supporting cast and Gene Hunt have deeper characters.

Finally: I found the ending of Life on Mars very moving and I feel there’s a possibility next week’s episode and/or the finale of Season 3 could have a similar effect on me, which attests to the shows quality.

[si]

I kept waiting for Summers to fade away as he walked off…

>I could buy Chris being led astray

Me too. Bless him, he just wanted the best for Shaz, and it escalated. I just hope he doesn’t end up alone and friendless, otherwise, like Ian said, that is really bad character development.

[SkyAndSun]

Actually I think it would be a bit of a clich? for him to gloriously redeem himself in the next episode, by saving everyone’s lives, for instance. Though I wouldn’t want him to end up friendless. I’d rather the writers found a more creative solution to the problem.

[si]

I’m not saying he should save everyone’s lives. I just think everyone should think about why it happened. After all, it was through a friend of a friend of Ray’s that it all started…

[Carlito]

> This may change; and in other ways I think Ashes is a superior series – primarily because the supporting cast and Gene Hunt have deeper characters.

I didn’t want to Gene Hunt to have a deeper character. He’s a hurricane, an enigma, an icon… why does he suddenly need a love interest, and to be multi-layered? He wasn’t in Life On Mars, and was arguably the best thing about it.

[si]

Read in SFX about the season finale of the US LoM – truly awful.

SPOILERS – DO NOT READ ON IF YOU DON’T WANT TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENS!!!

Sam is really on a mission to Mars in the year 2035. The crew are characters from the series, who he has dreamt into his 1973 daydream.

The worst part? The crew are on a ‘gene hunt’.

OH. MY. GOD.

[Ian Symes]

I thought you were doing a hilarious joke. I looked it up. Fuck me.

[pfm]

> why does he suddenly need a love interest, and to be multi-layered? He wasn?t in Life On Mars, and was arguably the best thing about it.

That’s because A2A is much more Gene’s series than Alex’s. Also, you can’t just have series after series of him being this characature. I think they’ve done some brilliant things with him this series, and Glenister’s acting has been superb. He was so good in yesterday’s episode, he’s the one who sells everything to the audience.

I totally believe A2A will end with the focus on Gene and not Alex. That he is real in this universe and that Alex is either the imaginary one or something else.

[Ian Symes]

Spoilers for the US Version again:

Hunt is also Sam’s father,

whose real name is Major Tom Tyler

[si]

That is truly awful.

[Pete Part Three]

what the FUCK?

[Carlito]

I hope John Simm shows up in next year’s finale. They never found his body in Gene Hunt world…

[Pete Part Three]

I haven’t bothered with the US version past Episode 1 (I’m also struggling with A2A and am a few weeks behind) but I’m inclined to download that final episode just out of morbid curiosity.

[Carlito]

The US pilot set in LA with Colm Meany was pathetically bad. There’s one hilarious scene where Sam starts walking down a street, superimposed onto a green screen background, and gets smaller and smaller to the point where he is only a little taller than the curb.

[pfm]

> The crew are on a ?gene hunt?.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGF1NP-FrCU

[Nakrophile]

Holy shit that’s amazing. I kind of want to see the US version now.

Anyway, latest ep of Ashes was good. I agree about Alex’s behaviour being quite strange and she was generally annoying for most of this ep, also agree that the way things went with Chris was understandable. I doubt he’ll redeem himself in the next one; they’ll ave that for series three I guess. Plus I can’t see Alex getting back home next week, so a third series looks very likely indeed.

I would like Sam until show up, but I guess that will probably be saved for series three as well now.

And Ray is amazing. Bit of a twat mostly yes, but he is a bad dude none the less.

[pfm]

> so a third series looks very likely indeed.

It’s been planned that way for ages. LoM was gonna have a third series but Simm wisely told them to sod off. And what’s he done since? Fucking nothing. Except for the odd thing. Idiot.

[Nakrophile]

> It?s been planned that way for ages. LoM was gonna have a third series but Simm wisely told them to sod off. And what?s he done since? Fucking nothing. Except for the odd thing. Idiot.

Is that true? I did read something like that somewhere a while ago, although I think it was here. Interesting. I take it that series two wouldn’t have ended the way it did if that had happened, or were there plans to keep going after he jumps?

I am pleased Ashes third series is a definite, though. I thought it was still being talked about.

[pfm]

> I take it that series two wouldn?t have ended the way it did if that had happened, or were there plans to keep going after he jumps?

Well they knew when they were making series 2 that it was going to be the last, so they knew the ending was a definite and straight on to Ashes To Ashes.

[Nakrophile]

Even though LoM was better, Ashes will probably benefit from a third series, especially if it ties in a lot with LoM..

[Squeaky Gibson]

Had a feeling it would end like that, though I was expecting Sam Tyler to make an appearance, though it was nice they name checked him.

[si]

That was fucking brilliant tonight. A little more reminiscent of the ‘WTF?’ moments that made Life on Mars the piece of excellence that it was. And that ending…Oh, just pure class.

[SkyAndSun]

Thoroughly enjoyed it. Though I don’t think the fact that Alex is apparently in a coma in 1982 is as surprising as other seem to be saying – hasn’t this possibility been discussed since Life on Mars series 1?

I was interested by Gene telling the dying Martin Summers to remember his former, good self – does this mean that Gene believes that man is Chris from the future? Or that Gene’s some kind of god, as has been hinted at throughout A2A? Hm.

[Phil1034]

> I was interested by Gene telling the dying Martin Summers to remember his former, good self – does this mean that Gene believes that man is Chris from the future? Or that Gene?s some kind of god, as has been hinted at throughout A2A?

I just read it as Alex had said a moment before that he was a police officer. I think Gene was just helping him to die proud not ashamed, remembering a time when Summers gave a shit. A bit like the team posthumously raising a glass to Mac. Of course I could be talking out of my behind.

[ChrisM]

I just read it as Alex had said a moment before that he was a police officer. I think Gene was just helping him to die proud not ashamed, remembering a time when Summers gave a shit.

That’s how I interpreted it too, although I did wonder if he tied together what Alex said earlier with the physical resemblance to the cop who died.

Gene certainly isn’t ‘some kind of god.’

I fell asleep earlier when it was on, so I just caught up on it On Demand. Loved the twist ending, although I suspected something like that would happen. If they do a series 3 I wonder if it will largely be set in the present day with constant flashes from the past. I like the idea that both realities are real but not necesarily connected in the literal sense (i.e. 1980s world isn’t actually the past of her world, hence the future guy (Summer?) continuing to live when he kills his past self. Course, the multiverse theory of time travel would allow for that too..)

[SkyAndSun]

Interesting replies.

And I’m not so sure that Gene isn’t a god. Throughout A2A it’s been hinted that he’s the reason Alex is there – that as long as Gene’s around things will be okay – that when Gene and Alex are fragmented things will go wrong – that he’s indestructible – so… yeah. I reckon Gene Hunt is the key to the whole thing, and not just because he’s such a compelling character.

Also in the BBC press release for Series 3 it says something like, ‘Series 3 will finally reveal who Gene Hunt is.’

Finally – older Martin Summers was in fact older Chris, right? Which is why he could kill the ‘real’, young Martin Summers, and why he had that moment with Chris in the raid where he said he knows it hurts, and it will continue to do so. Over on the DigitalSpy forums they seem to think he’s, well, Martin Summers from 2008, who engineered events so that Chris took the place of his younger self on the raid. Guess he could be either, but when I saw ‘the Chris moment’ I thought he was clearly Chris.

[si]

I never thought of the older Summers being older Chris – I just read it that he’d engineered it that Chris took his place, like DigitalSpy says. I’d no idea how, technically, older Summers could kill his younger self.

[J_Spaced]

Have to say that Martin Summers is/was not Chris. Summer got Chris to replace him, having shot himself for reasons that I’m still not sure of except maybe he hates himself. Understandable really, given that accent. Older Summers isn’t Chris. He is /was an evil git who could think his way through a corkscrew without touching the sides.

“Hmm, I want to foil a robbery I was involved in… shall I tell the other person here with me? Nah, I’ll stalk her, shoot myself, make her bury me, terrify her and refuse to answer any questions. I’m sure she’ll get what I’m on about. Then I’ll have killed myself for being such a loser and then make someone else into a loser for me so that they fill the role. I’ll be the crime boss, she’ll be the hero… oh it’ll be great fun!”

In the end it was all about one sad old man, his regrets and a strange desire to write and direct mystery theatre.

[si]

That’s pretty much what I thought. That fact that he created a complete paradox – by killing himself, he couldn’t exist to come back and kill himself *camera explodes* – is a little annoying, but made for a cracking ending to the series.

[ChrisM]

Older Summers isn?t Chris. He is /was an evil git who could think his way through a corkscrew without touching the sides.

I didn’t think of him being Chris either. (I always feel weird with that name appearing on this board, it being mine, etc. Heh.)

At the end I didn’t really see Summers as being evil either. Not totally evil anyway (he does some pretty despicable things.) I did earlier on, but it seemed at the end that he was actually manipulating Alex to stop the robbery. Remember at the end when the nurses speak: “He was an angry old man but he died peacefully.” He was pulling the strings, yes. Sure he tempted Alex to join the corrupt cops, but it was meant as a test to see if she would do the right thing, if she was the lady for the job, so to speak.

[Carlito]

> I don?t think the fact that Alex is apparently in a coma in 1982 is as surprising as other seem to be saying – hasn?t this possibility been discussed since Life on Mars series 1?

I don’t think that was a future plot point (that she was really from the 80s all along and the modern reality was the actual fake world) but more a red herring to make us momentarily believe she had returned to the present, only for the twist that she hasn’t really. I’d suppose series 3 kicks off in 1982 (or ’83?) as usual.

[pfm]

Chris and Summers did look really similar in the scene they had together. And what he was saying to Chris could be interpreted as him giving advice to his past self.

[Carlito]

I, too, would have assumed that Summers was actually Chris, but for the accent. At many points, he had no reason to fake it if that’s what he was doing.

[pfm]

He could have developed that accent in the next 25 years… I know they’re probably not meant to be one and the same but it seemed like they went out of their way to suggest it. Is it just coincidential that they look so much alike?

[pfm]

He could have developed that accent in the next 25 years… I know they’re probably not meant to be one and the same but it seemed like they went out of their way to suggest it. Is it just coincidential that they look so much alike?

[Jonathan Capps]

What the fucking hell are you people talking about?

[ChrisM]

>Is it just coincidential that they look so much alike?

Yes I think so. The guy who played young Summers looked more like him.

They might have chosen an actor who looked like Chris as a symbolic statement, i.e. Chris is now taking young Summer’s place, but I really think it’s just a coincidence. An apt one but one nonetheless.

[Kris ‘Drivaaar’ Carter]

How can anyone possibly think Summers was an older version of Chris? There was a younger version of Summers there! The older Summers engineered things so that Chris took his younger self’s place.

Bit extreme that he actually killed his younger self, but it certainly stops him interfering.

[Carlito]

Yeah the presence of a younger version of Summers doesn’t mean that the older man calling himself Summers couldn’t in fact be the older Chris under an assumed name. Especially as future Summers looked more like Chris than he did younger Summers.

In fact, I would be convinced that this was exactly what was implied, were it not for the accent. Especially when you consider that future Summers could still exist despite killing his younger self.

Did Summers come back to save himself from a life of crime and preserve his former innocence? Or did Chris come back to ensure his presence in the raid? And why? Maybe to avoid a life of crime and guilt by redeeming himself?

[Jo]

Summers is clearly not Chris, have you all gone mad???

[J_Spaced]

Carl, you old rascal you. Taking the smeg again.

I adore people who not only deliberately get the wrong end of the stick, but wave it around their heads manically in the hope of attracting more nutters.

For some Doctor Who fans, that’s a whole hobby on its own.

It’s firmly established in the show that things changed in the series do not have an impact on the present. Otherwise, Alex would remember being looked after by Gene the day her parents died and Summers would have vanished the instant he shot himself. (I don’t think Chris looks ANYTHING like older Summers.)

It’s not “the past” it’s a shared hallucination based on “the past”.

[Carlito]

> Carl, you old rascal you. Taking the smeg again.

I specifically said I did not believe this to be the case. Just that I can empathise with those who do.

[J_Spaced]

Oh I see. That makes more sense. I still think it was a glorious bit of credibility stretching though! I mean it. Not being sarcastic.

[ChrisM]

>It?s firmly established in the show that things changed in the series do not have an impact on the present

Including Life on Mars too, this is a bit up in the air isn’t it? I.e. in the first episode of Life on Mars, there was a suggestion that his dealing with the rascal who kidnapped his girlfriend in the past retroactively set her free. (Well, stopped her being kidnapped in the first place.)

Ok, there are other explanations. I.e. maybe she just happened to be set free at the same time, or the voice he heard was all part of the hallucination. It could go either way.

I suppose the rules could be different for Alex’s world in Ashes to Ashes. I tend to go with the idea they’re separate worlds, but both real, and one isn’t necesarily the past of the other, but nothing is definite.

As for Alex not remembering her rescue by Gene as a child, I got the impression a lot of her memory of that time was a bit vague. (I’ll need to rewatch it though, my memory of the events are pretty vague right now too.)

[Kris ‘Drivaaar’ Carter]

Things changed in the ‘past’ in LOM or A2A are never shown definitively to change the future. Sam’s girlfriend was stated as being saved in the first episode of LOM, but it was never explained how. When Sam was tortured in hospital by an escaped psychiatric patient in series 2 of LOM, it was implied that Sam was pursuing the same guy in the past, but again never specified – more likely that Sam’s midn was just reacting and trying to make sense of the outside stimuli. The final episode of LOM fairly conclusively shows that the 1973 was all in Sam’s head – but saying that Sam awoke with his 1970’s sideburns back in 2007… He spoke of his experiences to Drake before killing himself… but is likely that maybe Sam never awoke from the coma? Thought he awoke, but didn’t… thereby by making the Ashes to Ashes present, 1981-82 setting, and Alex (and her coma in a coma situation) also part of Sam’s own mind?

Hmm. Just mind-fucked meself. I need a lie down.

[pfm]

IT’S ALL A DREAM. HUNT’S DREAM.

[Pete Part Three]

>but saying that Sam awoke with his 1970?s sideburns back in 2007?

He’d been in a coma. The nurse liked them.

You should never be mindfucked by either of these programmes. It’s pretty clear that the writers don’t really have a definitive answer. Just enjoy LoM for the sheer entertaining genius of it. And, um, tolerate Ashes to Ashes for its mediocrity.

[ChrisM]

>And, um, tolerate Ashes to Ashes for its mediocrity.

Series 2 was pretty cracking.

[Carlito]

Nah, think I’m gonna have to agree with Pete on this one.

Actually I’ve instantly come over in a ‘Life On Mars mood’. Might have to watch it, like, now.

[Author]

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