Community

[Bob Loblaw]

Community was discussed in a thread a little while ago and I thought it deserved its own thread, giving that it’s coming back soon.

Oh, and also because this trailer just came out and it’s the best trailer of the year: http://www.tv.com/news/community-watch-the-trailer-for-the-rest-of-season-3-video-28037/

Topic

[ori-STUDFARM]

A show I have heard so much about…..it’s on the “to do” list and I’ll get there eventually….

[si]

My sister loves it, and forced it upon me a couple of months ago. We watched every episode over the course of a week or so, and now I am utterly hooked. I am so looking forward to it’s return next week. A very funny, very clever show. :)

[si]

Question: why THE FUCK is it not showing on any channel over here? It’s exactly the sort of thing I expect to find on E4 or somewhere. Channel 5 even. It deserves to be seen. It took me about 3 episodes, but then I was hooked.

[Carlito]

It’s bloody brilliant. So glad it wasn’t cancelled and is coming back.

[si]

Oh. I’ve been alerted to a Tweet via @tubetalk:

Community season two will air in the UK on Sony Entertainment TV from April 10!

Not sure what number channel that is, but I know I’ve got it. Still ridiculous it’s not being shown on terrestrial or Freeview, though.

[JamesTC]

E4 should give a try airing it.

Still meaning to get into this. Been recommended to me by a few people.

[si]

People keep comparing it to Spaced. It’s more of an ensemble piece, but I get the comparison – it’s clever, has the pop culture/geeky references, and some brilliantly written and realised characters. Can’t believe it took me so long to watch it.

[ori-STUDFARM]

I keep meaning to ask. Has anybody else watched Todd And The Book Of Pure Evil yet? I really love this show….kinda like a stoners comedy with brains but of a similar feel to that of Buffy……Villain/disaster of the week in format but also with an ongoing Season story arc. Some great characterisation and development too….

I think Seasonm 1 airs over here soon. Can’t remember where or when though

[si]

Sony Entertainment TV is Sky channel 157. Just thought I’d mention it. So that when I’ve forgotten to set the Sky+ in a month’s time I can just check this thread to get the channel number.

[Ben Paddon]

Community is easily the best comedy on American TV right now.

[HelloMabel]

Too bad that at least one of the Americans here has never heard of it! I clicked on this thread expecting it to be about the G&T community. Suppose I have to check it out now with so many ringing endorsements. (:

[Ben Paddon]

It’s on Hulu, Mabel. You can watch the whole thing there.

[ChrisM]

>I keep meaning to ask. Has anybody else watched Todd And The Book Of Pure Evil yet?

Yes, although I missed some of episode one as I was doing something else at the time.

I enjoyed what I saw. Goofy silly fun with a twisted slant.

As for Community… I confess I’d never heard of it until I read the posts here!

[Bob Loblaw]

@Carlito, Although it’s coming back for the rest of S3, we still won’t know if S4 is happening until May. But the producers seem to be semi-confident based on recent statement.

Glad to see so much love for the show in here, it has filled the Lost-shaped hole in my heart.

For anyone who wants to get a taste, or just need something awesome to pass the time, this channel is streaming all the episodes back to back on a loop:

http://veetle.com/index.php/channel/view#4db4dbecb1f0c

(Just hit remind me later. Oh, and I always have to refresh first.)

[Carlito]

It has such a passionate core audience, one would hope NBC see sense and commission a 4th season in spite of the low ratings, even if it means showing it in a less prominent timeslot (and the budget decrease that will perhaps bring). Everyone involved in the show seems to be as passionate about it as the audience.

Let’s hope it’s not another Arrested Development situation.

[Bob Loblaw]

If you haven’t seen it yet, I’d highly recommend the recent Paley panel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFb6kmzKpxQ).

Dan Harmon talks about being glad that it is now known that no matter which show goes in at their 8pm slot, up against the juggernaut that is Big Bang Theory, it won’t do great numbers, as has been proven by 30 Rock in the last few months.

Based on what I’ve seen and read online, NBC are actually promoting the return of the show a lot more than most fans thought they would, based on their history of not mentioning Community if at all possible, so that’s got to be a good sign.

[JamesTC]

Community will be renewed. It is near the magic ~88 episode number for syndication.

Sony, the production company, sold ‘Til Death to Fox for a cut down price so they could get it close enough to 88 episodes and syndicate it. These days in American TV, syndication is the main driving force. Sony will sell Community to NBC at a low enough price so NBC make a profit from ad revenue and Sony can make back any net loss with syndication.

30 Rock on the other hand I am very afraid for. It is doing similarly badly in the same timeslot. When Community returns it will move ahead half an hour and hopefully improve but the damage may have already set in. It is already syndicated and it is produced by NBC (which is generally an advantage) but the ratings really are dipping quite low. I guess the only saving grace is that while 30 Rock doesn’t skew young enough it does skew to a richer audience which might be desirable to advertisers.

[si]

My sister’s got assorted tabs open with Community merch on them. This is amusing.

http://www.etsy.com/listing/91467990/community-inspired-darkest-timeline-abed?ref=sr_gallery_2&sref=&ga_search_submit=&ga_search_query=abed&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_page=1&ga_ref=related&ga_search_type=handmade&ga_facet=handmade

[HelloMabel]

Cheers Ben, will check it out. (:

[JamesTC]

Community has been sold into syndication starting in Fall 2013. This basically means that a Season 4 is a dead cert. Sony would be throwing away money by not licensing the show to NBC at a cheaper rate (and making it worth NBC’s time suffering the relatively lower ratings for a final ~22 episode season).

[si]

Well, I hope a UK terrestrial/Freeview channel picks it up. :)

[Phil]

I watched last night’s episode. The second I’ve ever seen, after the previous season premiere.

I…don’t get it.

[Carlito]

I too watched last night’s episode.

As a fan, I thought it was a very run-of-the-mill episode. A few elements seemed to me like forced kookiness. The Shirley and Britta conversation (“Two Minutes Later”) was cringeworthy, and so out of tune with what the show usually goes for.

It is capable of so much better. Problem is, when I discovered the show, I watched them all from the start and my joy grew organically along with the show. But when I showed all my mates my new discovery, I simply lined up the ‘event’ episodes (the genre or high concept eps such as paintballing, goodfellas, halloween eps etc.) knowing that would hook ’em, but then there’s the sense of disappointment when you keep watching after that kind of introduction and start watching the more standard fare.

Knowing just how good this show can be can make you forget that it simply cannot be THAT show every single week. Now and again it needs to be a simpler affair to get you invested back into the characters again. But its hard not to feel a sense of an anti-climax when that happens.

And lesson learnt: if you are the uninitiated intending to check out Community, watch them all in order from the start. And stick with it. It’s worth it.

[si]

I’ve watched them all in order from the start, too, starting just a couple of months ago. This was my first ‘new’ episode. I’ll probably watch it properly later, with the first ten minutes included, and the pictures not 8 seconds behind the sound.

[HelloMabel]

>And lesson learnt: if you are the uninitiated intending to check out Community, watch them all in order from the start. And stick with it. It’s worth it.

Message received. (: I am the uninitiated, but not for long – the school where I’m teaching goes on Spring Break in a couple weeks… :))))

[si]

Watched the episode for the second time an hour ago. The ‘Literally two full minutes later’ bit (which I missed last night) was actually one of my favourite jokes. An average episode maybe, but still better than so much other stuff. Although it’s only just registered with me that Chang wasn’t in it.
I like Annie’s Boobs*.

*No, of course I don’t mean the Monkey.

[si]

So, s2 starts on Sony TV tonight at half ten. There’s an interview with Joel McHale on CultBox. The end of this quote’s pretty interesting.

Community’s had a lot of really famous guest stars like Owen Wilson and Jack Black, and a lot more appear in Season 2. Are there any other celebrities that you would love to have on the show?

“Well, having John Goodman on [in Season 3] was a dream come true. Just to be able to say I was in the same show as him I could be like ‘Well that’s something I can tell my great grandchildren’. But I would love to work with Bill Murray.
“Tony Blair would be great – anything to bring the UK into us.  Also the cast of Twilight, the cast of The Hunger Games…
“Also you know who’d be great? Richard E. Grant. After Withnail & I, I was just like ‘this is the guy who I am going to watch through everything’ because he’s just so damn good. And I guess the cast of Red Dwarf too.”

Full interview: http://www.cultbox.co.uk/interviews/exclusives/3394-joel-mchale-community-interview

[Ben Paddon]

D:

[HelloMabel]

>”And I guess the cast of Red Dwarf too.”

Red Dwarf cast: the crazy brother-in-law of famous guest stars.

[si]

That there Ben Paddon has started a very amusing Community/Doctor Who page. Who screencaps with Community quotes. My sister’s gone mad, and is submitting loads of possible caption jobs.

Go, look.

http://whommunity.tumblr.com/

[Ben Paddon]

Your sister has gone very, very mad indeed.

[si]

Don’t worry, she’s back at work today.

[NoFro]

I just started watching this show a couple of weeks ago and have just finished catching up with it completely. Great show. The characterisation is particularly strong and it’s great how it uses it’s flexibility (facilitated by Abed’s way of looking at things and how infectious it is) to do character studies.

Also extra points for getting Michael Kenneth Williams to say “A man’s got to have a code” once again.

EDIT: Also, though it’s “event” episodes are great, Cooperative Calligraphy is surely one of the most effective bottle episodes ever. As funny as anything they’ve ever done and what must have been an incredibly cheap episode to film.

[JamesTC]

Community has been renewed for Season 4. It will be 13 episodes (I assume with the possibility of ordering 9 more).

[si]

Better than nothing. :)

[Arlene Rimmer BSc SSc]

Ehhhh. They ordered new episodes, but the showrunner, Dan Harmon, was replaced, and a lot of writers are gone. I don’t have much confidence in the upcoming season, to be honest, especially after the awesome stuff this season did. Ultimately it might have been better if it had been cancelled.

So I dunno if this is the darkest timeline, as such, but it’s getting there.

[NoFro]

Have to agree. A lot of people were getting really worried about it not getting renewed but my opinion was that it was a great show and if it didn’t get renewed it’d end as a great show with a hefty number of episodes to enjoy (more than Red Dwarf in just 3 seasons). I was worried that if it went on there would sooner or later be the inevitable drop in quality and the announcement that Harmon has been replaced seems to be indicating that may indeed be happening very soon.

Still, I hope it remains the great character based sitcom that it is and doesn’t just become a show that just does endless parodies for the fuck of it as, like Red Dwarf, it is the well defined characters that make it a great show rather than a good show and it is the characterisation that makes most of the jokes work as well as they do. I think the problem I have with this change is that the balance is so spot on with Community and it’d be so easy for it to be shit or just of disposable quality rather than being one of the best shows around at the moment.

[Carlito]

Community as we knew it has been cancelled. It was great while it lasted. Even if the new showrunners do a decent job, even a better job, it won’t be the true Harmon vision. It would be akin to letting Shakespeare write two thirds of a play and then fucking him off and getting somebody else to write the final act.

(No need to point out the disputes about the authorship of some of his plays, it’s just a metaphor….)

[ChrisM]

You haven’t seen it yet. It could be excellent. (Although, considering the way a lot of shows go over time, I can see why you’d doubt this.)

Mind you, I haven’t seen the original yet either. I’m thinking maybe I should look it up at some point.

[si]

I’d love to read something about shows that lost their creator, and how they fared or how long they lasted after the creative team was changed. I’m sure it’d make fascinating reading.

[Ian Symes]

The West Wing – not quite as good, but still excellent.
Red Dwarf – shit for two series with only one creator, but quite possibly back on form 10 years later.
Doctor Who – did alright after Verity left.
Brittas Empire – shite.

[si]

*reads*

Fascinating. ;)

[JamesTC]

That I can think of:

Enterprise – Season 4 had the showrunner changed to Manny Coto and it is generally believed to be the best season.

The Brittas Empire – Last two series were okay but nowhere near the quality of the first 5.

Smallville – Changed showrunners from Season 8 onwards and was better for it.

The Simpsons – Changed showrunner a lot:
Season 1–2: Matt Groening, James L. Brooks, & Sam Simon
Season 3–4: Al Jean & Mike Reiss
Season 5–6: David Mirkin
Season 7–8: Bill Oakley & Josh Weinstein
Season 9–12: Mike Scully
Season 13–present: Al Jean

Star Trek – Gene Roddenberry basically walked out at the start of Season 3 leaving the people left to run the show. Being moved to Friday and beset with stinging budget cuts, it was never going to be as good as the first two but I still don’t think it is as bad as people say.

[Bob Loblaw]

There are examples where shows have maintained or improved the quality after their creator or showrunner has left. However, I don’t see Community being one of them. While I still expect it to be better than most comedies on right now, due to the cast and remaining writers, I highly doubt it will reach the heights it has achieved over the past 3 seasons. Dan Harmon was a showrunner in the style of David Milch or Aaron Sorkin, meaning he had a hand in pretty much every aspect of the show.

[John Hoare]

I was hugely surprised at how much I enjoyed The West Wing after Sorkin left; I went into it very worried and thinking it might not be worth watching, but I loved it. And Season 7 is amongst some of the best West Wing ever.

[Carlito]

The best example in US comedy that I can think of where a showrunner has so dictated the voice and sensibilities of a show is Larry David on Seinfeld, and that went right off the boil when he left.

Even though Jerry is credited as a co-creator, it’s pretty evident that Larry was the driving force of the show and its comedic perspective, not only from interviews/behind the scenes info but from the on-screen product. Jerry became more involved in the creative side after David’s departure and whilst the show still had its moments, it became far more broad and off-beat, the characterisation was inconsistent and it jarred that the show wasn’t coming from the same singular vision it once did.

Its slightly different in the UK as most comedies traditionally have one or two writers who tend to write the show for the duration of its run. However, as mentioned with Brittas above, it can lead to the best examples of how a show can decline when its creators are no longer on board. At least when Rob Grant left Red Dwarf (of his own choice), the other half of the self-professed “gestalt entity” was there to ensure that – whatever your opinion of the quality of the show beyond that moment – it was authored with at least one of the authoritative voices of Red Dwarf.

Community will continue without its creator and its biggest fan (this is a man who paid for special title sequences for theme episodes out of his own pocket as there was no budget). It will also continue despite losing many of its longest serving writing staff and directors. It appears Sony are going for a total revamp to try and extend the shows run so it reaches syndication. But it cannot be the same show – the real show – even if it is better received or rated than it once was, in the same way that Red Dwarf could not be authentic Red Dwarf if, say, Doug Naylor bowed out and Series 11 was written by Paul Alexander with zero input from Grant or Naylor. Even if it were really good or even better than that which came before it. You can look at the endurance of The Simpsons despite several changes in showrunners, but it’s always had Matt Groening (and James Brooks) as a stabilising influence, ultimately its chief voice, even if he isn’t as hands-on as a Larry David or a Dan Harmon.

It’s a real shame that Sony couldn’t have come up with a way to resolve the Harmon situation. The apparent issue was his sloppiness with budget and deadline overruns and general demeanor as a fascist for his art. I suppose the public spat with Chevy Chase didn’t exactly help either. The obvious solution to me would be to appoint a co-showrunner to handle that side of things and let Harmon handle the creative side. Instead, they renewed his show and replaced him without even telling him. Very worrying that it could even be allowed to happen, and now it seems the goodwill which kept the show alive despite its low ratings is slowly descending into comments across the internet such as “it should have just been cancelled instead” – comments unthinkable just a week ago when everyone was desperate for confirmation that the show would return. It’s a good job that the season 3 finale played out almost as a show finale because for many intents and purposes, it was.

It’s really depressing that something like that can even be allowed to happen in the first place. That a creator can be ousted from his own work is really worrying. I know this kind of treatment isn’t anything new but coming from a wanky creative perspective, it’s very very bad.

[JamesTC]

>It appears Sony are going for a total revamp to try and extend the shows run so it reaches syndication.

Community already has a syndication deal in place. It’ll start in Autumn 2013. With these last 13 episodes it’ll have just about enough for syndication (83 is a similar number of episodes as ‘Til Death which was zombified to syndication for three years by Sony).

It is airing on a Friday after Whitney starting September. It’ll fall to lows and will be cancelled along with Whitney. People will wrongly attribute that to Dan Harmon being sacked.

[Carlito]

It’s probably got more chance of survival airing on Friday nights where ratings expectations are lower and its not up against The Big Bang Theory which probably commands a very similar type of viewer and gets huge figures. Its very loyal and vocal fanbase are a large proponent of its endurance thus far with poor ratings. If anything, it risks alienating those due to the dismissal of Harmon.

If the show is cancelled after its 13 episode 4th season order, I don’t see how you can attribute it to anything but the dismissal of Harmon if the quality also declines. Sony would like it to reach syndication numbers; NBC probably don’t give a shit. They would not have ordered more if they didn’t think it was worthwhile.

All it needs to do is gain acceptable figures on a Friday night, which it could if its fanbase follows it to Fridays and it can pick up some of those Big Bang viewers with Nielsen boxes. If the show becomes a different animal, attempting to appeal to a different demographic, and it doesn’t work, then it surely will be the end.

When all is said and done, those who know or care about the behind-the-scenes shenanigans are ultimately a vocal internet minority and the general viewer probably won’t have a clue. If the new showrunners make it more appealing to the mainstream, it could hit big and run for years yet. The aforementioned Seinfeld only started hitting the big numbers in its fourth and fifth seasons. But it won’t be true Community anymore, either way.

[JamesTC]

I still don’t think The Big Bang Theory has much to do with the numbers Community gets. When it returned in March it had strong numbers, then Big Bang returned and it continued to have strong numbers (slowly dropping until the nadir last Thursday). When Big Bang in in repeats it gets around the same numbers.

> They would not have ordered more if they didn’t think it was worthwhile.

NBC are part producers of the show (through Universal Television) so they get syndication revenue. The more episodes, the better the syndication revenue. So by renewing Community and putting it on a Friday they have nothing to lose. If it is a success then they get a profit on advertising revenue and yet more on syndication. If it is a failure they can write off advertising revenue loss against future syndication profits.

It will always be a failure on Friday regardless of Dan Harmon staying or going. Not only have recent past attempts by all networks to produce comedy blocks on a Friday proved to be disastrous but it has an anaemic and critically hated show as a lead-in and is up against a stronger comedy block by ABC (which I also expect to fail but not in as spectacular fashion as the NBC Friday comedy block). And most important of all, NBC will be launching 4 new comedies in September and NBC will be trying like hell to make those a success which will mean the other 6 comedies will get much less attention (especially those neatly tucked away on Friday).

[Carlito]

My point is they have had three seasons to assess the numbers and demograph that Community attracts and still decided to give it another run. I doubt NBC would bother ordering and giving prime time scheduling (even on a Friday) to a show that it felt was a lost cause, especially with advertisement slots to tout, whether they have part ownership or not.

There was a vociferous outpouring when the show went on hiatus and its legend grew online and through social media enough that when it returned, its viewing figures were pretty respectable for once (for a couple of weeks at least). The fanbase is loyal, devoted and vocal and it made a difference. Where NBC has failed to effectively promote the show, its own audience took it upon themselves to do so and with demonstrable (if modest) results. That had to play at least some role in the decision to bring it back.

Except they’re not bringing “it” back, because “it” was a product of Dan Harmon’s mind and he has been kicked to the curb so “it” no longer exists. I wonder if this was solely a Sony Pictures decision or whether NBC demanded it, and if not, how they feel about having ordered 13 episodes of a show only to see its showrunner get the boot.

I think there’s a slight chance he will end up back in the mix somehow anyway so we shall see.

[Author]

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