Home Forums Ganymede & Titan Forum Doctor Who – Series 11

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  • #238708
    si
    Participant

    Going back to series 11, I’m loving Bradley Walsh.

    Yes, he’s great. Really showing us his acting chops. (That doesn’t really sound as good as it should, does it?)
    Still, if they can cast a teen pop star* and a silly comedienne* as companions, and they don’t do too badly, there’s no reason why a footballer/comedian/singer/game show host* shouldn’t be wonderful, too.

    *and actor

    #238720
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >If you saw the end of ‘Twice Upon A Time’ then you saw how far she fell from

    Well, not for about 11 months and not particularly keen to revisit it. I remember the regeneration and her saying “brilliant”. Did she fall out of the TARDIS while it was in orbit?

    #238721
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    If I recall correctly she does fall out. Because right after, my dad said “see, not even the TARDIS agrees [with a female Doctor]”.

    #238725
    Lily
    Participant

    It’s still on iplayer (in fact all nuwho is now).

    I re-watched the regeneration earlier, the Tardis turns on its side and literally shakes her out. That’s why I thought there would be more issue made about the ring and getting back in. But apparently not.

    #238728
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    I’m more confused about the whole ring falling off and Tardis throwing her out thing. I presumed the ring was required to operate the Tardis or something like that, but new Tardis apparently don’t care. There was such focus on the ring it’s got to mean something?

    Hartnell’s ring was discarded by Troughton at the start of his first episode. It’s a back-reference to this, given the context of the episode.

    #238729
    Dave
    Participant

    She fell out of the Tardis from a great height, yes. Above cloud level.

    #238732
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    She should have looked in a mirror and seen a dodgy photograph of Capaldi pasted on it as her reflection as well

    #238734
    Warbodog
    Member

    The scene where they’re reunited and the TARDIS apologetically opens its door to welcome her back in is my favourite bit of the new series so far. (‘Tough competition’ etc.)

    #238735
    Lily
    Participant

    >Hartnell’s ring was discarded by Troughton at the start of his first episode. It’s a back-reference to this, given the context of the episode.

    Thank you!

    #238743
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    >‘Tough competition’ etc.
    Arachnids in the UK is my favourite episode of this series so far. ‘Faint praise’ etc.

    #238746
    si
    Participant

    Arachnids in the UK is my favourite episode of this series so far.

    Ditto. Highlights included Ed Sheeran and Ryan making shadow puppets in the background.

    #238747
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    The grime music made me want to die and the villain was a two -dimensional thinly-veiled caricature, and the Doctor’s morals were incredibly questionable (suffocating/starving to death being more humane than getting shot), and the plot is basically left unresolved, but apart from that it was…. medicore.

    #238751

    If only this was an episode of Red Dwarf we’d have formed a general consensus by now

    #238778
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Despite not enjoying the series so far, I’m really looking forward to tonight’s episode. Either I’ll get to complain more, or I’ll be pleasantly surprised and it will actually be good. Oh joy. I hear it’s a Chibnall one (oh dear) set in space (finally)

    #238781
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    That was GREAT! Funny, tense, emotional, uplifting. Jodie is really coming into her own, now, although the writing really needs to evolve past emulating Ten, and there were some nice character moments for everybody, especially Ryan.
    I kind of liked The Doctor being talked down to and made to concede, that isn’t really something we see a lot. Also a couple good laughs in the episode, including “I’m not being hostile!” said hostile-y, and “Are you kidding/sometimes”.

    More like this, please.

    #238782
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Thought it was fucking awful.

    #238783
    Lily
    Participant

    Yes I really enjoyed that one. Tension, danger, running around, people dying, Doctor desperately trying to take charge and think of how to save them, all good Who stuff. I could have done without the dead mother chat which rather killed the pace for a little while, but other than that it was a good little episode.

    Shame we’ve had to wait 5 weeks for one though.

    #238784
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    The internet in general seems to think it was pish and I’m starting to wonder if I only thought it was good in relation to the shite we’ve been fed up until now

    #238785
    Dave
    Participant

    I feel like this episode bit off more than it could chew. Too many different character stories fighting for attention, and smothering what could have been a pretty tight and tense main story about the alien eating the ship.

    It felt like scenes often happened in a fairly random order, with the momentum of certain scenes being totally killed by what followed (especially the scenes that just stopped the flow dead to have the characters dole character backstory).

    That said, I think the Doctor marvelling at the antimatter drive might be my favourite Whittaker moment since the start of this series.

    #238787
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Would have just been more generic/closer to Alien without that stuff, at least this episode tried to be interesting and wasn’t just boring dross like the past four episodes sans Rosa (which was only interesting at the very end) were

    I agree with the momentum dying at some points – not the conversation between the two companions, but there were a couple other moments (the antimatter high school physics lecture which served no purpose and didn’t even mention annihilation) where everything just sort of paused.

    The antimatter explanation was very sudden and out of nowhere but i sort of liked it – on the impetus that it would be used to set up something. But it doesn’t. It’s just there, and a waste of time, time that could be spent sorting out Dave’s first criticism.

    Somebody pointed out that the ship is for some reason stable during all the birthing scenes, which is a bit convenient now I think about it. Same person said that The Doctor being injured for most of the episode served no purpose as well, but I rather liked that, as showing her defeated/submissive etc was a nice little bit the episode did. And it allowed Jodie to stop acting like a facsimile of David Tennant and give us a little something different, her performance was more interesting and more her own, then. Not as wacky.

    #238789
    Lily
    Participant

    >The internet in general seems to think it was pish

    Oh wow yeah, they really hated it didn’t they? I mean sure, it’s no Blink, but I didn’t think it was that bad? It had a few issues but nothing that killed the show dead in the water.

    People are moaning that it was boring and confusing, but I found it neither. Just a entertaining little base-under-siege middle of the season episode. Almost feels like I didn’t watch the same show as everyone else (apart from Ben).

    #238790
    NoFro
    Participant

    The biggest problem for me is that this was the fifth episode in a row that I found really quite boring and there’s nothing worse than boring. Can’t think of another time since I started watching Who properly in 2010 where that’s happened (I dipped into the RTD era from time to time but couldn’t get on with most of what I saw).

    My partner loves Who and is similarly disappointed but we’ll both continue to watch the show in the hope that it delivers something special somewhere down the line. At this point I haven’t much hope left though.

    Out of curiosity, is there anyone on the board that is really, genuinely loving this series? If so, what are you loving about it?

    #238791
    NoFro
    Participant

    Rosa has been my favourite so far, FWIW, but I want my season high point to be a lot better than Rosa is.

    #238792
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Series’ 3, 7 and 9 had boring stretches but you’re right, nothing has been quite so boring for so long in Doctor Who since The Web Planet.

    The next handful of episodes AREN’T written by Christ “Mediocre” Chibnall, and are being written by brand new writers, so at least we have potentially interesting scripts to look forward to.

    Remember Torchwood? Towards the end of series one that show was starting to get REALLY good, with great character dynamics… then… the finale… was a huge monster… written by Chris Chibnall… WHAT a letdown

    #238794
    si
    Participant

    No, even I thought that was a duffer. Like I said on Twitter, as much as we all ‘know’ that it’s essentially a kids’ show, that felt distinctly CBBC fare. When Eve was ‘piloting’ the ship…I thought that was pretty toe-curling to be honest. My dad (who really liked it, he said he didn’t want it to end) said it reminded him of Sandstrom in Hyperdrive (no, I know you didn’t watch it).
    I did think Pting was very well realised though, I was worried when it first appeared that it was just going to be a nasty cartoon, but it actually looked pretty cool (and a bit like a baby Slitheen).

    #238795
    Warbodog
    Member

    Being an adult who moans about Doctor Who not going his way makes me feel worse than the initial disappointment did, so I’ll shut up until I like something again. Look – four weeks of guest writers ahead!!!

    #238797
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    >so I’ll shut up until I like something again
    And Warbofrog was never heard from again :(

    Criticising stuff is a lot of fun in my experience… it’s almost addictive… and criticism can be a good thing… somebody could write a decent sci-fi about that idea….

    #238798
    Dave
    Participant

    There was a point at which I thought they were going to go quite dark – once they established that the monster didn’t eat human flesh and they needed to stop it from eating the ship, I thought that they were going to sew it inside the pregnant man just after he had his baby.

    Probably would have been a bit weird though.

    #238799

    It’s all been a bit of a shrug for me, seeming like the writers aren’t really sure what they want to do so far. My cousins, though, who are target-audience age, they’re loving it. The youngest walked around Derby the other week quoting the whole bit in Rosa Parks which ends with Ryan saying “that’s good, because I don’t eat them.” This week’s was enjoyable fluff, I just want something more, but I can’t argue with children who say they love it.

    #238800
    Dave
    Participant

    I feel similarly.

    Over the past few weeks I’ve more or less made my peace with the fact that, for me, it probably isn’t going to be the show it once was. I liked it a lot as a kid, enjoyed lots of bits of the RTD era (and thought Tennant was very good), and I really enjoyed the Moffat era (and thought that both Smith and Capaldi were brilliant).

    On the strength of these first five Chibnall episodes it seems to be chugging along at an OK average – not awful, but not great – and if it continues like that it will never reach the heights of the RTD and Moffat eras. Who knows, things might change.

    But I’ve noticed that other people are really enjoying the new take, including my daughter who finds the show much easier to follow in general now than she did under Moffat. Others seem to be on board too, judging by the general reaction of friends and other parents that I know (both for themselves and their kids).

    So I feel like I maybe need to accept that the show is moving into a new phase that works for other people better than it does for me – and it needs to do that, to regenerate when it becomes old and tired, and turn into something else, something new and different.

    Or to put it another way: “Doctor, I let you go.”

    #238802
    tombow
    Participant

    I’ve only had a chance to see the first episode and clips of the rest so far, but from what I’ve heard talking to friends etc, it sounds like the new series is kind of very down to earth and going for a more more kid’s show, CBBC-ish feel, less epic and intense, more friendly. I think I’ll probably prefer the Capaldi era (which I’m watching now and enjoying), but yeah, good luck to the new series even if it turns out to be more for kids than older fans. And not so much my thing.

    #238803
    tombow
    Participant

    I mean..I can imagine someone like Judi Dench playing a “scary” Doctor in a more Moffat style series. That would have been good, but maybe we have to wait longer for that. Maybe the next era will be Olivia Coleman playing a more intense Doctor.

    #238806
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    I don’t know any kids, but both my parents think the show is pretty gash now. My dad is a big Star Trek guy, my mum thinks he’s called Doctor Spock. Nobody else I know irl still watches this show, it has totally fallen off in terms of pop culture relevancy and viewing figures, but it had been doing that already during the Moffat era for a myriad of reasons. The 50th and its aftermath were a brief “fuck yeah Doctor Who” globally apparently, but everybody I know irl says they stopped watching after Tennant left, which is really disappointing. Understandable that they would try to get the casual audience back, I just wish they could do so without being so BLAND. And afaik the viewing figures aren’t doing all that much better after the initial interest in the series opener, but I don’t really want to be one of those people who talks about hearsay regarding viewership, I find that a bit daft sometimes.

    Somebody said the other day that the show itself is so boring now we have no choice but to discuss things like this because the actual episodes don’t warrant all that much discussion, lmao.

    What do you think of the reference to “the timeless child” and the Doctor not even knowing about something herself? Are we getting an arc, or is it more bullshit throwaway lines like “hey remember that time on planet 42 when I did some bullshit”

    #238809
    tombow
    Participant

    I think this whole thing about the show being more of an ensemble and the Doctor not standing out as much, sound like an interesting choice. I mean, it may be boring to watch, but it’s interesting if they’re making a choice to get away from the “things get done by one awesome person and his group of inferior friends” mindset.

    #238811
    Dave
    Participant

    I thought the viewing figures had been pretty good, despite the expected dropoff after the first episode.

    #238814
    Lily
    Participant

    > I don’t really want to be one of those people who talks about hearsay regarding viewership, I find that a bit daft sometimes

    I’m daft, I’m a data nerd. I was actually having an argument with a friend this morning about this. He’s one of these “never watched after Tennant” types, who was adamant that viewing figures have been going down ever since and no-one liked or watched Smith. So I put this together to hit him with some data.

    View post on imgur.com

    Last week’s final figures haven’t been confirmed yet and obviously her average will go down over the next few weeks. The grouping isn’t entirely accurate as Ecclestone never had an Xmas episode, but it’s close enough to give an idea. I also split out the season that was half Amy, half Clara as there was a clear dip in interest with Clara around. There’s also an extra Xmas episode that I ignored, as it wasn’t attached to a season and xmas is always an outlier anyway.

    #238815
    Lily
    Participant

    Oh, poor graphing skills with no labels. It’s viewers in Millions up the side and episode number along the bottom.

    #238901
    steven87gill
    Participant

    Chibbers has written way to many episodes this series & they’ve all been thoroughly average (don’t say Rosa because you can tell Malorie Blackman wrote most of that) he should’ve stuck with the opener & closer & let the guest writers do the rest, especially now there are only 10 episodes.

    To the people who are surprised at this, trust me, the man has written for Doctor Who & Torchwood since 2006 & every single fucking episode he has ever written (save for maybe the Dinosaurs one, which was actually good fun) has been exactly like this. Just average, he’s the guy you call when you need 20 episodes of Star Trek on a deadline to fill out the rest of the run. Not someone you base an entire series around.

    #238913

    I was having a look at Chibnall written episodes of DW / Torchwood the other day.

    42 I seem to remember being a fairly decent episode, and Dinosaurs on a Spaceship is silly fun with a bit of a sinister ending. The rest can go to hell though. But the rest are mostly Torchwood.

    The difference between his previous DW work and now is that he had RTD and Moffat to sharpen up anything he delivered. And I’m sure both of them are on record (at least Moffat is) of doing fairly extensive script re-writes for guests writers.

    I’m seriously beginning to wonder if the man can actually write science fiction. Every episode I’ve been left baffled by things that weren’t addressed in episodes, dialogue being really simplistic, obvious and feeling like it’s from the first draft. Threads not coming together etc.

    He certainly isn’t painstakingly worrying in a sci-fi nerd fan boy way about how the technology etc within an episode works in the way that Moffat did, or considering the consequences of it.

    Take for example last week. The medics ship spends 4 days in space travelling to the medical station.

    #238914

    Shit, posted before I was done.

    I spends for weeks travelling through space, then when the Doctor questions how she’ll get back to the junk planet to fetch the TARDIS they say they’ll just teleport her …. across 4 days of space travel. Why bother with a medical ship if you can just teleport people across those distances. Beam them straight into the hospital!!

    #238916
    Dave
    Participant

    The thing is, it would only take the odd line to rectify stuff like that. Something about how you can’t teleport the injured because it would mess up their injury or interfere with the treatment or something like that. It suggests there hasn’t been much close script-editing. Which is odd given how long these scripts have taken to get to the screen.

    #238917

    That’s exactly it. I don’t want to be unfair to Chris because I’m sure he has spent a lot of time working on these shows, and I’m sure he is very proud of them. But it just doesn’t feel like the same care and attention has been applied in a way we’re a) used to with Doctor Who and b) is necessary in science fiction.

    Every new script essentially needs new world building applied to it, the why things happen and how they work etc -, and that doesn’t seem to be the case with a lot of this.

    I guess from the minute he decided to ignore/not explain how the Doctor survived her fall in episode one (a fall Chris set up no less) was an indication of how the rest of the series would be treated.

    #238918
    Warbodog
    Member

    Episode for episode, this series doesn’t appeal to me any less than the early parts of some RTD runs. Stuff like New Earth, Tooth and Claw, The Shakespeare Code and Daleks in Manhattan that I’ve never desired to watch again and that didn’t feel aimed at me in the way most Moffat episodes really did. Though I found Moffat’s series 9 & 10 uninteresting for the most part as well, with exceptions, so it’s been a general decline from 2010-11 for me rather than a painful break-up.

    That decline is admittedly getting steeper since this is a brand new era that needs to impress and we haven’t had what I’d consider a great episode yet. I’m looking forward to the new guest writers more than I’ve been looking forward to the last few. Gizza Moffat.

    #238919
    Warbodog
    Member

    * By which I mean “Gizza new stand-out writer who writes clever episodes I/we eagerly await every year and are overjoyed when they eventually give him/her the keys.”

    #238923
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Doctor Who peaked in Series 8 for me, then the finales of each mediocre-good season after that were absolutely astonishing (TUAT is an epilogue not a finale), so it has been a very sudden and very upsetting drop in quality for me.

    RTD did a hell of a lot of re-writing scripts from what I remember, so much so that I think he claims he deserves a writing credit on a few of them in The Writer’s Tale. Moffat felt the same way, and actually started taking a writer’s credit on episodes he significantly rewrote in Series 9, which is why he gets so many.

    I agree with the comments about potentially unpolished scripts. A lot of the episodes don’t really have a proper ending, Arachnids and Tsuranga especially from memory leave a couple things unresolved, such as how she got back to the TARDIS and why they can’t just teleport anyway.

    A lot of Chibnall’s stuff is also signposted really hard and feels like conventional, by-the-numbers storytelling, the likes of which you’d read about in a how-to book. Here is the SETUP. Here comes the PAYOFF. This character is going to DIE, you can tell because we gave them loved ones and a line or two to make you care about them. It’s just very la-di-da.

    #238924
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    He also writes dialogue which is so “realistic” with characterisation he got from How To Characterise For Dummies that it comes off even more unrealistic than Moffat’s heavily stylised, everybody-is-witty stuff at its worst. Good Moff dialogue is incredible, good Chibnall dialogue is rare.

    #238927
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    How many of you have seen that clip of Chris Chibnall taking down Pip and Jane Baker (live?) on television, chastising them for how shite their contributions to Trial of a Timelord were? It’s pretty funny, and almost ironic in retrospect, how the criticisms he makes about their attempts at Doctor Who are now being thrown at his.

    #238930
    Dave
    Participant

    That was one of the better episodes this season. I don’t know if the season order was planned or rejigged to deliberately air it on Remembrance Sunday, but it felt quite apt.

    #238931
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Well that episode was alright, got slightly emotional at moments. Still nothing spectacular.

    I’ll never get used to them ending with different music that plays over the credits, I don’t like that. I also don’t like the “hey remember when we did that thing in that place that one time” throwaway lines, like in the opening elevator scene of Attack of the Clones, it’s really lazy “characterisation”.
    And Tosin Cole still can’t act.

    I really liked the twist with the aliens in this one, it was actually quite haunting, but immediately after that reveal the episode gets boring again. All the floating heads was some nice imagery.

    #238932
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    >I don’t know if the season order was planned or rejigged to deliberately air it on Remembrance Sunday, but it felt quite apt
    A lot of crazy right wing nuts were crying about how the BBC would dare to air something that was clearly going to be anti-British/anti-White on remembrance Sunday, saying it was disrespectful etc. That lot have a real knack for pre-judging things before they’ve even seen them. They all seemed to have shut up now that the episode has actually aired, but they’ll be back. Probably trying to figure out how to mould what they just saw around their agenda. Give them a few.

    #238935
    Dave
    Participant

    The twist with the aliens reminded me a bit of the most recent Christmas special. Similar ideas at play.

    #238938

    That was definitely the better written episode of the series so far. Lots of good and heavy drama. Though, like with Rosa, I felt the aliens were superfluous. It just felt like an historical drama with Doctor Who dropped in for the excuse of telling the story. I was bored half way through and, for the first time since I started watching Doctor Who at the end of series 4, I started looking at my phone whilst the episode was airring.

    I’m sure there’s an audience out there loving this series, I’m just not a part of it.

    #238940
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    >The twist with the aliens reminded me a bit of the most recent Christmas special
    Not much reminds me of TUAT because it was one of the least memorable things I have ever bared witness to

    >I felt the aliens were superfluous
    Somebody else said this, but the revelation of what the aliens were actually doing, all the floating heads, and that shot of The Doctor and co. walking away from and reacting to the man being killed were some of my favourite moments in the episode, so losing those would knock the episode down quite a bit for me. It could be heavily re-written to remove them, perhaps.

    Did anybody else feel like the younger brother character wasn’t fleshed out enough? I didn’t really understand why he was so pro-partition, what made him turn against and potentially kill his own family etc. Were they a large group? How did they convince him, what did they say to him, who were his sources, etc. Either I missed something (I know he was in the war and a bit young for it), it’s something I’m supposed to know from history (we didn’t do partition in school however), or he really was just not fleshed out.

    #238945
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    I didn’t mind that one although I can’t imagine a time when I’d be bothered to rewatch it. It’s another very straight-forward tale, and the Doctor and her mates played no active role in the story. That said, I think I preferred that to the heavy-lifting they did to get them involved within the events in Rosa. All the bollocks about bus drivers and holiday tickets to Las Vegas tried my patience. Frankly, Tikka to Ride was a far better episode about “correcting timelines” and if you can’t even match that, maybe just stick with something a little less ambitious in terms of sci-fi. So, we get aliens who pose no thread and timelines running more or less how they’re supposed to… but still a reliance on real world drama to give it any kind of weight.

    I’m really not sold on the idea of three companions. Mainly because, most episodes, two of them have bugger all to do. And what’s the arrangement anyway? Is The Doctor just hanging around now?

    #238948
    Warbodog
    Member

    I liked it. Seen the story before (Father’s Day / time travel stories generally + Twice Upon a Time aliens), but the exotic scenery was nice.

    Three companions works well when they’re introduced gradually rather than competing for development from the off. I liked how they did it in series 5 with Amy > Amy & Rory > Amy, Rory & River.

    #238949
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Chibnall going for the Davison approach – bland, blonde Doctor with three poorly acted and uninteresting companions who are horribly underwritten.*

    *Except I quite like the Davison era

    #238960
    si
    Participant

    Fanwank theory of the week – The reason Yaz is Umbreen’s ‘favourite granddaughter’ and given the watch is that Umbreen remembers Yaz being there in the first place.

    #238964
    Dave
    Participant

    I didn’t think that was a fanwank theory, I thought that was the whole point of that moment.

    #238965

    Yeah – Chibnall isn’t really all that great at showing connections too well, if I was being generous I’d say it’s too subtle. But I think that’s the point … she gives her the watch, refuses to talk about it, which encourages Yaz to travel back to that moment and be a part of it.

    They then have that bit at the end about how “she ended up in Sheffield” but they both know full well she is there because she wanted to be

    #238966
    si
    Participant

    I didn’t think that was a fanwank theory, I thought that was the whole point of that moment.

    Really? Oh, I thought I was being clever.

    she is there because she wanted to be

    Who wouldn’t?

    #238967
    Dave
    Participant

    Maybe the favourite granddaughter thing wasn’t intended, they never specifically link the two I guess. But given how much they emphasised that moment at the start (along with the mystery of the watch, details of the grandmother’s personal history etc.) it felt like it was patting the audience on the head and saying “the story you are about to watch is going to provide an explanation for all these things you have just been told”.

    #238968
    Lily
    Participant

    I enjoyed the episode in general but the alien twist felt rather unsatisfactory. Once you’ve found out they’re just hanging out for dead people it makes their former actions more questionable like why all the mental attacks on the Doctor when they first get there?

    >And Tosin Cole still can’t act.
    While I agree, I’d also argue that he’s making the best of the lines he gets. Sometimes it’s a case of *screen turns on* “Hey look, the screen’s turned on”. It doesn’t help that everything seems to be delivered in a monotone.

    >I’ll never get used to them ending with different music that plays over the credits, I don’t like that.
    Ditto. Hate that.

    What I found a little odd was the lack of accents. The Nan had a very mild accent in Sheffield, which was less than I’d expect really. It was the stuff in the Punjab that really seemed odd though. You get a little line about their punjabi not being bad for foreigners, but then all of the locals have a faint northern accent. It’s not like I’m saying we need Apu but it just felt a little off.

    Also why are they all “oooh what killed the holy man?” – doesn’t the sonic read a bullet wound?

    #238969
    Dave
    Participant

    Andrew Ellard made the bullet-wound point in his notes for this episode too. It does feel like a bit of a plot hole.

    #238971
    Lily
    Participant

    >I’ll never get used to them ending with different music that plays over the credits, I don’t like that.
    Ditto. Hate that.

    Oh, just catching up on reddit they point out it’s the normal theme slowed down indian style.
    Still hate it.

    #238973
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    To be fair, if the TARDIS is translating language from “wherever” to “prefect English”, it is most likely also capable of rendering it in an accent which is easy for you to understand. All the alien monsters seem to have British accents and so do most of the other secondary characters. Exceptions off the top of my head would be the Chinese woman in Mind of Evil and Chiang in Talons Of.

    What I found stranger was the Yaz’s gran in the 40s seemed to be using modern British slang/colloquialisms, which is hard to get used to but I guess it makes sense on the same level as the concepts previously discussed.

    Yeah it was the normal theme in an Indian style, but I didn’t notice until just before the next time trailer. I love Gunmen of the Apocalypse’s alternate credits theme, for some reason it feels more acceptable in Dwarf. Perhaps because the music is just better, and to be fair Gunmen’s music is very clearly presented as “here is a new piece of music just for the credits”, whereas in Doctor Who they play a piece of music which doesn’t stop and just carries over into the credits awkwardly.

    #238991
    steven87gill
    Participant

    Step up from the last two weeks, & the only episode of this series where Chibbers doesn’t have a writing credit. Funny that.

    Rosa was stellar but you could tell where Chibbers had shoehorned his bits in. We’ve got guest writers for the next three episodes so it will be interesting to see how things go.

    #238992
    steven87gill
    Participant

    I’d have preferred one, six-part serial per year with a guest writer coming in for each story, like Toby Whithouse, Neil Cross, or Jamie Mathieson. Sort of like ‘Trial of a Timelord’ but done right. It’s what the show was built on & where TV is at the moment & I feel like the monster of the week format is played out at this point. You could still have a feature length festive episode written by Chibbers but let someone else do the more involved storytelling that a serial requires.

    Chibnall i think is the Julie Gardener figure that Moffat badly needed behind the scenes during his tenure, someone who can deal with the actual show-running behind the scenes whilst someone else deals with the actual storytelling aspect. It’s what the show was built on & where TV is at the moment. I feel like the monster of the week format is played out at this point.

    #238993
    steven87gill
    Participant

    Gash, I can’t get into edit my comment so yes I am aware that I’ve repeated myself.

    #238994
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    I liked the idea of series 9 being all two parters but I didn’t really like the execution. I do agree that monster of the week is a bit old hat, it worked better when it was monster-of-six weeks

    #238995
    si
    Participant

    I found the closing theme a bit cringeworthy, to be honest.
    As far as Rosin Cole and Ryan goes, Ryan was definitely ill-served this week. It seemed pointless his even being there.

    #238996
    si
    Participant

    *Tosin

    Let us edit these fucking posts, for God’s sake.

    #238997
    Warbodog
    Member

    New viewers keep being born who haven’t seen Doctor Who yet, so it’s not “played out” to them. I think serialisation’s overrated anyway, so many streaming-model shows are padded and boring. Individual episodes and two-parters suit Doctor Who and kids’ attention spans. I’d rather there were a few bad/mediocre episodes per year that can be forgotten about than a 10-parter with deep troughs you have to struggle through any time you want to watch that story.

    It’s good to see that most of the complaints about the last episode are just really petty things like people’s accents, convenient oversights and changing the theme tune you’ve heard enough times already. Things are looking up.

    #238998
    steven87gill
    Participant

    I find this notion that kids are somehow unable to follow a more serialized format mildly patronizing. If they can happily sit through a 2+ hour Harry Potter film then I don’t see the issue. All about the execution.

    #238999
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    >a 10-parter with deep troughs you have to struggle through any time you want to watch that story
    Miracle Day was a bit shit, wasn’t it?

    #239022
    steven87gill
    Participant

    >a 10-parter with deep troughs you have to struggle through any time you want to watch
    that story

    Who said anything about it having to be ten parts? A five or six part serial is more than enough.

    >Miracle Day was a bit shit, wasn’t it?

    And Children Of Earth was incredible. Next

    #239023
    steven87gill
    Participant

    >Doctor Who peaked in Series 8 for me

    That’s pretty much where I think Steven Moffat should’ve bowed out, actually (even though I quite enjoyed series 9) He likely would’ve too, if Smith had agreed to stay for another year. Should’ve followed RTD’s lead of 4 series. It would’ve been nice not to have Moffat dominate all of Capaldi’s run.

    #239024
    steven87gill
    Participant

    That or the 50th TBF. The end of Day of the Doctor would’ve been a perfect jumping on point for a new show-runner.

    #239026
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    I know Moffat intended to bow out with The Doctor Falls but decided to also do TUAT because Chibnall wasn’t going to, and I think he might have also done the entirity of series 10 for the same reason although my memory is a bit fuzzy.
    No Moff-led S9 means no Heaven Sent/Hell Bent so that idea can fuck off, lol.

    Children of Earth was good, but it lags in the middle and gets little repetitive and shitty. Miracle Day has that random episode where Jack starts fucking some Italian guy in the 40s which is actually one of the best episodes out of the whole show, but then it also has 7 episodes of filler

    #239028
    si
    Participant

    How did a discussion about the current season of Doctor Who manage to become a chat about a seven year old series of Torchwood? That’s clever even by G&T regulars’ standards.

    #239029
    Dave
    Participant

    I’m amazed it hasn’t become a conversation about Red Dwarf VIII yet.

    #239030
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Don’t be silly. There’s nothing more to say about Red Dwarf VIII. It was a fantastic series and we’re all very happy with it.

    Much like Doctor Who Series 11.

    #239045
    steven87gill
    Participant

    >I know Moffat intended to bow out with The Doctor Falls but decided to also do TUAT because Chibnall wasn’t going to, and I think he might have also done the entirity of series 10 for the same reason although my memory is a bit fuzzy.

    My first thought when the rumors swirled about the festive episode being moved to New Years Day was all the effort Moffatt had put into not losing the Christmas slot, lol.

    Series 10 is really the only time i felt the format was truly tired & Moffat really had run out of ideas, although World Enough & Time/The Doctor Falls *almost* makes the entire series worth it. Twice Upon A Time was just kind of… there. Basically just a glorified epilogue & a bit inconsequential. Kinda like the last 15/20 minutes of The End Of Time but extended to fill an entire episode.

    Also, that’s now 3 times we’ve had moments where a much better regeneration was sacrificed for the sake of something more drawn out, overly sentimental & soapy. 10 in the radiation chamber, 11 on the clock tower & 12 at the end of series 10. I still maintain that Capaldi regenerating on the floor like Hartnell & waking up as Whittaker was a fuckin’ open goal & they missed it.

    #239047

    Where is it said he intended to bow out with The Doctor Falls? I know he was saying he thought The Husbands of River Song was going to be his last while he wrote it, but I’ve never read that he wasn’t intending to do a Christmas special after Series 10.

    I really like the last two-parter of Series 10, personally. The Lie of the Land is utter dross though and the episodes following follow suit until Word Enough and Time. I don’t see anything wrong with 11’s clock tower scene, though.

    I’ve almost caught up with series 11, but haven’t seen the latest. I’ve heard it’s better than the previous episodes though, so hurrah!

    #239051
    Dave
    Participant

    Moffat has said he intended to end his run with a regeneration at the end of The Doctor Falls, but then agreed to stay on for one more episode when it became clear that Chibnall wouldn’t be ready to take on the show by the Christmas special. In particular, Moffat said he didn’t want the show to lose the coveted Christmas Day slot by skipping a year. So he extended the regeneration to run over that entire episode (you can see pretty easily how the regeneration would cap off The Doctor Falls).

    It’s ironic that it’s now been confirmed that the show will miss the Christmas Day slot this year anyway, with an episode on New Year’s Day instead.

    #239053
    Lily
    Participant

    >Where is it said he intended to bow out with The Doctor Falls?

    Here – http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/doctor-who/news/a834617/doctor-who-christmas-special-almost-scrapped/

    #239054
    Warbodog
    Member

    I was pleased to see that a prolific comedy actor who finally appeared in Red Dwarf not too long ago will finally be appearing in (televised) Doctor Who in an upcoming episode.

    #239055
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    There was a lot of behind the scenes stuff with Moffat’s run (and honestly everybody else’s) that completely changed his original plans, I read that there were preliminary discussions between him and David Tennant about Ten staying on for one last series in which the first episode or something would deal with him dying then there would by timey-wimey shenanagins and a mystery plot leading to an explanation in the finale, similar to what we ended up getting with Series 6.

    #239056
    Warbodog
    Member

    I’d love to read an uncompromising Writer’s Tale tell-all from Moffat. But he’s still working for the BBC with Draclia, so not yet.

    #239057
    si
    Participant

    I was pleased to see that a prolific comedy actor who finally appeared in Red Dwarf not too long ago will finally be appearing in (televised) Doctor Who in an upcoming episode.

    And me. I wasn’t sure whether we, as a community, were already aware of his casting, but it was certainly a very pleasant surprise to see his face in the new DWM. But then, seeing former Hyperdrive stars always is. (And only the second to have credits in the Holy Trinity of Dwarf, Hyperdrive and Who.)

    #239068
    tombow
    Participant

    Well, I hope you will be fascinated to know that I am currently watching my way through the Capaldi era for the first time, after having seen none of it before. And – having just picked up the series 8 and 9 dvd sets – this is the first time I’ve ever really watched Who properly. I’ve seen most episodes from Nu-Who up to Smith’s first series (and loved some episodes), but this is the first time I’ve ever really engaged with the show and put effort into following it, as opposed to just sitting there while family watch it. And – I’m loving it. Some reactions so far …

    Deep Breath – Loved the steampunk look and how spooky it was – it made me think the series was going to be more elaborate and canon-heavy than it turned out to be, with the characters from Smith’s era (in fact, I didn’t even know Silurians and Sontarans were in the old series).

    Into the Dalek – thought this was going to be a throwaway, but the weird little scary touches (like the immune system) made it better than I thought.

    Sherwood – I really liked this one, I liked the humor around Hood being as cheesy and heroic as he should be.

    Listen – I really like Danny’s character, I’ve always admired a good schoolteacher, and I was really upset what happened to him at the end of the series, even if it set him up to defeat the Cybermen in a powerful way.

    Time Heist – like Sherwood, one I thought would be skippable but had enough flair and style to make it worth it.

    Caretaker – I laughed all the way through – love the Doctor being mean to Danny, and Danny seeing him as an Officer. It’s a bit unfortunate IMO that the show’s good diversity, combined with the Doctor being derisive to companion boyfriends, means he ends up being rude to black men so often though. (ie Mickey and Pink.)

    Kill the Moon – I liked it – seemed a bit of an easy solution though. What would they do if the dragon didn’t lay a new moon?

    Mummy – just good gripping fun.

    Flatline – loved Clara proving herself as an effective Doctor! Hopefully she can go on to be some sort of Time Lord ish person some day?

    Forest – Again I’ve always admired good school teachers so I liked Clara and Danny in this one.

    final 2 parter – Probably one of the most disturbing episodes I’ve seen. Missy is better at playing the DC comics Joker than any actual Joker actor IMO. I’d love to know if Moffat flicked through some Batman issues as there was some stuff there that seemed specific from 70s/80s Joker (I forget what now).

    #239097
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Wonderful review of my favourite series, reminding me of just how strong it is, and how bizarre the fact that everybody seems to hate it also is. Kill the Moon I thought was dreadful, but I think “what if it didn’t lay a new moon” is part of the point of the episode – the characters didn’t know it was going to do that beforehand, did they? So it was all about the impossible choice they had to make. I guess it laying another egg (ignoring the fact that no organism could possibly lay an egg BIGGER THAN ITSELF) does make the ending a little too neat, but then again we couldn’t go on for all of the rest of Doctor Who with the Earth being moonless. Unless they did a little sidequest to find a replacement.

    I didn’t like Forest either but I think it was just medicore compared to Moon which I found genuinely annoying.

    Death In Heaven has some absolutely terrific Doctor/Master dialogue and making The Master a woman was an inspired twist and planted the seeds for the audience a female Doctor, and Capaldi/Gomez come the closest to recreating the magic of Pertwee/Delgado that anyone has ever come before, while still completely owning the characters and putting their own fresh new spin on the relationship. Despite one of Moffat’s biggest criticisms being his writing of female characters, Missy went on to become one of the absolute highlights of his era, I would say.

    What did you think of CyberBrig? https://youtu.be/Bmsafe5d4oM

    #239100
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    That was the last series I liked, really. Aside from Heaven Sent and the Zygon two-parter, I wasn’t keen on season 9, and 10 pretty much drifted away without making any kind of impression.

    Listen and Mummy on the Orient Express are very different, but both great examples of how versatile the show can be in terms of story and execution. I thought Deep Breath was a terrible opening story for Capaldi, mind.

    #239101
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    I appreciated Deep Breath much more on rewatch earlier this year, it does a really good job of setting up what’s to come which obviously you can only really tell retroactively

    #239102
    Warbodog
    Member

    ‘Mummy’ was my favourite from that year and my second favourite Capaldi episode, just a really solid story. I’ve never got the ‘Kill the Moon’ hate, I thought it was a bit boring but I’d never considered that Doctor Who had to be scientifically accurate, the daftness is part of the charm.

    I’m not fond of them bringing back the same baddies over and over to face every Doctor – Daleks belong to Hartnell, Cybermen to Troughton, Master to Pertwee – so all of Capaldi’s Dalek/Cyberman/Master episodes don’t do much for me. Maybe that’s part of why I like Smith’s more self-contained run and Tom Baker’s diverse bestiary the best. I thought “no returning monsters” was going to be a real strength of series 11 too… well, it’s not a rule.

    #239103

    I really liked Mummy on the Orient Express too, but it did cause one of the two non-family members I know who watch the show to stop. He thought Capaldi’s Doctor was too heartless in it. Not sure if he made it to the end of the episode though. Series 9 I like a lot of, but do find stretches of it intensely boring. The Viking one is one of these boring ones, and it’s a pretty essential watch to get the full impact of the finale, which I love but can understand people being put off.

    Thanks for clarifying the Moffat statement and providing a link, I hadn’t heard his original plans got changed.

    #239104

    Also, I entirely agree about the daftness of Kill the Moon being part of the charm. The fact that the show attempts to pull it off is great, even if the attempt fails (note: it didn’t fail for me). I hope the show edges closer to these crazier ideas than it is at the moment. It still seems to me that it’s lacking confidence in itself to do anything too interesting.

    #239105
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    “The daftness is part of the charm” is only really true to a degree, and I believe that modern writers (Gatiss) believing that to be completely true leads to a lot of the general shiteness of parts of the RTD era and some other episodes, and that writing something deliberately silly is a grave error. Classic Who was very rarely deliberately silly. The effects weren’t shit on purpose.

    It is mentioned dozens of times on the Pertwee DVDs that the mark of a great Who story is that no matter how silly everything seemed and how flimsy the sets and effects were, everybody (for the most part) played it straight and took the material seriously. Once you get into Season 16-17 Tom Baker stuff, where Baker is no longer taking the roll all that seriously (with some exceptional moments) and people (Douglas Adams) start writing the show to be intentionally silly, I really start to switch off, and actively hate the show at points.

    #239106
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Holmes was good at “deliberately silly”, and The Pirate Planet y Adams tows the line, almost veering into “oh, fuck off” territory several times, but Baker is still putting in a good performance on that one, and the pantomimey villain is (spoilers!) given a story reason to be acting like that, which is a pretty interesting payoff

    #239107
    tombow
    Participant

    I’m still not sure about the logic of Missy’s afterlife business – I’m not sure if she downloaded the mind of every single person who ever lived or died (even from the past and future), just people from when her “3 words” thing was in business, or people who had fought alongside the Doctor. And why did it look so pleasant for the first few people in the series (a garden centre) and then a dark city at the end.

    Just seen the S9 opening Davros 2 parter, loved it (I’m sure it would have more impact if I’d seen more past Davros, but I know who he is). Loved the shock of Clara not being able to say what she wanted in the Dalek, really dark moment. Capaldi seems to be giving a bit of an OTT performance, so I’m curious as to if he will calm down as the series goes on.

    #239108
    tombow
    Participant

    (oh yeah, I loved Cyber Brigadier, even though I’m only slightly familiar with him, it was a great moment).

    I’m thinking of getting the series 2 dvd (the one with Tennant and Piper) and giving it a chance. I found it too sappy at the time, and only got back into Who when Martha came in. It was mostly the Rose/Doctor relationship I found too sentimental too. I do remember some of the individual episodes being awesome though (like Madame de Pompideu, the Coronation TVs one, and the werewolf/ Victoria one). Maybe I’ll enjoy the emotion more now I’m not missing Eccleston, years older and have a more open mind.

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