Home Forums Ganymede & Titan Forum Doctor Who – Series 11

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  • #239580
    Lily
    Participant

    Pretty blobs on lines, for those that are interested in seeing viewing figures in context.

    View post on imgur.com

    #239581
    Berlin
    Member

    Very interesting trends there. Most series bar Capaldi’s kick off with approx. 8.5 – 9 million viewers and decrease as the episodes roll on, Whittaker’s run has started with the sea change and viewership pull of a female Doctor and is diving after an 11 million premiere. The 2019 series will likely settle into the 8.5 – 9 trend but decrease after that at a greater rate as seen in the 2018 series with a 2020 series maybe even venturing into Capaldi’s 6.5 million nadir.

    What to take from this (and my own reflection) –

    People like younger Doctor’s with a bit of zeal about them, they like light-hearted adventures and don’t like to wade through episode after episode of social commentary when you can intertwine that with some real good storytelling at the same time. People give the Smith era a lot of stick but boy was it fun and it didn’t mind wearing its heart on its sleeve. You can go anywhere in the Smith era and not have to worry too much about episodes that have came before. The Whittaker – Chibnall stories feel like commentary first with alien of the week tagged on to help pull together the three acts and it really shows.

    So the BBC have a decision to make.

    Allow Chibnall to venture on as he pleases in the 2019 series, lose two million viewers and international recognition before replacing him and essentially rebooting the show in 2020 and hoping Whittaker stays for a third series to build a transition to the fourteenth Doctor in 2021.

    Or do you ‘Solo’ it, get the clunkiest 2019 episodes whittled out and re-written with stronger and more ‘Who-esque’ stories and build up that transition earlier and cross your fingers that the first Whittaker series will be seen a blip.

    #239585
    steven87gill
    Participant

    The Whittaker era should’ve took it back into the stratosphere but it hasn’t and why? The writing, the club around the head social commentary and the distinct lack of adventure and eccentric daftness that we do very well.

    I think the lack a real, substantive overarching plot hasn’t helped either. There’s been no reason for those extra eyes who tuned in out of curiosity to keep watching past the first few episodes

    I still say Chibbers should’ve gone with a full blown serial, either 6×60 or 8×45, one story spread over the whole series. The idea it needed to be standalones to be more ”accessible” is nonsense, look at the figures for Bodyguard or Broadchurch (that Chibnall created)

    I mean christ, Doctor Who was practically *built* on the cliffhanger/serialised format.

    #239586
    steven87gill
    Participant

    The Whittaker era should’ve took it back into the stratosphere but it hasn’t and why? The writing, the club around the head social commentary and the distinct lack of adventure and eccentric daftness that we do very well.

    I think the lack a real, substantive overarching plot hasn’t helped either. There’s been no reason for those extra eyes who tuned in out of curiosity to keep watching past the first few episodes

    I still say Chibbers should’ve gone with a full blown serial, either 6×60 or 8×45, one story spread over the whole series. The idea it needed to be standalones to be more ”accessible” is nonsense, look at the figures for Bodyguard or Broadchurch (that Chibnall created)

    I mean christ, Doctor Who was practically *built* on the cliffhanger/serialised format.

    #239588
    steven87gill
    Participant

    Test

    test

    #239589
    steven87gill
    Participant
    #239590
    steven87gill
    Participant

    Please, for the love of god, let us edit our own posts.

    #239597
    Berlin
    Member

    But Doc ain’t Broadchurch, what works for one brand of drama doesn’t work for another. Doctor Who was serialised in the classic run but when you look at the amount of ground they covered per serial, it’s clear that you could take two or even three episodes from the ’63 to ’89 era and condense them into one equivalent revived era episode without it feeling rushed which is why the two-parters in the modern era have big consequences and changes for the show and characters, they’re more like films and a plot broom to sweep away the loose threads.

    I would hate to see an over-arching plot for a new series of Who, does nobody remember the last two Torchwood specials? You’re gonna annoy the long-term fans who want to see the Doctor come up against new dilemmas and characters and you’re annoy new fans who just want to sit down and put on an episode without having to recall the MacGuffin from episode four and how it plays into the C-plot. Plus over-arching series sag like mad in the middle and once you start building up to the finale, you’ve lost half your audience.

    #239610
    Dave
    Participant

    Test

    test

    This post is bigger on the inside.

    #239612
    Berlin
    Member

    You’re bigger on the inside, fatty.

    #239614
    steven87gill
    Participant

    ”I would hate to see an over-arching plot for a new series of Who, does nobody remember the last two Torchwood specials?”

    Children Of Earth was one of the best pieces of television RTD ever penned, & only 5 parts to boot.

    Miracle Day was an overcooked mess, thanks largely to being about 5 episodes too long, & having a chaotic behind the scenes American/British co-production.

    #239615
    steven87gill
    Participant

    And Russell T Davies stated he preference for the miniseries format whilst writing Children Of Earth, feeling the format more ambitious & intelligent.

    #239616
    Berlin
    Member

    Children of Earth and Miracle Day were each three-parters at best, a miserable end to a show that was starting to get interesting.

    #239617
    steven87gill
    Participant

    I do recall the end of Children Of Earth being a rough watch. I mean the whole serial is fantastic, & i love TV painted in darker hues, but the end is… too much, even for me. I mean it’s bold, but in the process it sort of ‘spoils’ Torchwood & forever taints the character of Jack.

    I get the impression RTD was not in a good place when he wrote that. I think the closest Moffat ever got to that level of grim was probably Extremis.

    #239618
    Warbodog
    Member

    You can go anywhere in the Smith era and not have to worry too much about episodes that have came before.

    I don’t know, series 6 got a lot of stick for being “too complicated” and Smith’s lore-heavy Christmas Day finale must have been off-putting to casual viewers, or even fans who hadn’t reminded themselves of certain dangling plot threads the series hadn’t touched on for 2 to 3 years. Overall, there are definitely fewer back references and continuity nods in Smith vs. Capaldi though, one reason I prefer it.

    The Smith/Moffat era started out like the current era, making a clean break with hardly any holdovers – just Moffat’s own River Song and Angels and the classic enemies (which usually had disappointing episodes and I could have done without). I like the clean break approach and self-contained eras, it just needs someone exciting in charge!

    #239619
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    BANG.
    BANG.
    [pause]
    BANG.

    Children of Earth was incredible, but probably an episode too long. Miracle Day was about five episodes too long, but that episode where they show Jack having a [seemingly] random relationship with that Italian man was just stunning, really unexpectedly brilliant.

    #239620
    Berlin
    Member

    If Chibnall was an ice cream flavour, he’d be that fucking bland ice cream from Farmfoods your gran always had which was barely vanilla and had the texture of cardboard.

    While a half dozen ethnic minorities watched you eat it and tutted.

    #239622
    Warbodog
    Member

    ethnic minorities

    I thought we were dissing the failings of the Chibnall era, not the good stuff?

    #239623
    Berlin
    Member

    Don’t mistake me mentioning that term in a flippant fashion for a negative outlook on it all. The casting and use of non-white actors in recent Doctor Who has been great but it does veer on Chibnall pointing at them and going ‘ain’t this marvellous, look at how broad the palette is now, look how we’re tackling the issues of the day’.

    He’s as subtle as a sonic screwdriver up the rear.

    #239624
    Warbodog
    Member

    Diversity can’t really be subtle when you’ve only got four leads to spread it around, but I still think representation for the sake of it and “doing it because you can” or because you haven’t before is good enough reason. Yaz is still a nothing character right now, but having a South Asian British / Muslim companion (who only brings that up when relevant) is great, and not just because it’s fun to think of how it pisses off some people.

    #239823
    Dave
    Participant

    That was largely pretty dull I thought, and bringing back the underwhelming comedy baddie from the first episode was maybe not the best choice for a big series finale.

    And while I was glad to see them return to the idea of unintended consequences of the Doctor not being decisive enough in her method of dealing with villains, it felt like a thread that never went anywhere.

    #239824

    I was again, just bored by the way Chibnal writes. There was a lot in this episode that if it had been written by someone else it would have been a lot more interesting to watch. The dialogue is so dull and repetitive. “Don’t kill people” – ok we know that, but let’s stop and have a quick philosophical discussion on why killing bad people is bad. Rather than the cliched “you’ll be just like them”

    Let’s take that conversation onwards a bit. Sure Graham might be “just like him” if killing 1 bad guy is the same as kidnapping and wiping out the life on 5 planets. Let’s have a brief discussion on consequentialism, isn’t it better to kill the genocidal maniac than let him live and carry on killing, rather than getting bogged down in utilitarianism.

    #239825
    Berlin
    Member

    What she really needs is a quirky hat

    #239826
    Lily
    Participant

    I can’t help feeling a little underwhelmed. It felt like there were ideas that were big and impressive, but were treated with so little care they just rushed past. Big battles, hundreds of crashed ships, whole planets in a bit of perspex, people that live thousands of years, chambers full of stasis people, ‘the planet’ wiping memories. So many things that were thrown in, maybe to try to make it seem epic, but just ended up feeling a mess.

    Also, since I don’t see trailers or any promotional material if I can, I was totally expecting Graham to be killed off today. Especially since he had his deathwish grudge match. So in all honesty I feel a little cheated that he just shot Tim in the foot and was fine and dandy. Not even the Ux died. Doesn’t feel like a finale unless -someone- dies.

    I guess to give some credit, it wasn’t a BAD episode. Just, could do better. Which is a shame.

    #239831
    Berlin
    Member

    It’s been announced that the next series won’t air until 2020. Not entirely unsurprising but it does allude to growing production problems.

    #239832
    steven87gill
    Participant

    Also, BBC have confirmed no Doctor Who in 2019, with the next series coming ”early 2020”. Bradley coming back is great news, at least.

    I’m just… meh at this. Considering how underwhelming this series has turned out (after starting out so promisingly) I’m not as bothered as I thought I’d be when this rumour started circulating.

    I want to say this will harm momentum, but if we’re being honest the momentum’s already gone, Chibnall pissed it away after the 3rd episode & deep down we all know it, if the 8-9 million consolidated ratings had continued past the first few episodes, I’m certain we’d be getting at least at least *some* of series 12 next year.

    #239833
    steven87gill
    Participant

    I do worry that he’s squandered the incredible viewing figures of the first few episodes. They knew the world would be watching when this series started, & it should’ve been seen as a golden opportunity to bring the show back into the zeitgeist in a way it hasn’t been since 2009.

    And they fucked it.

    Badly.

    #239835
    Warbodog
    Member

    Better than some of the cringeworthy finales we’ve had, but definitely the dullest. Felt like the villain was transplanted from Stargate or something. New Year will be the proper finale since it’s so soon, hopefully that’ll leave things on a more hopeful note.

    #239836
    Warbodog
    Member

    It’s been announced that the next series won’t air until 2020. Not entirely unsurprising but it does allude to growing production problems.

    Not growing, just not being fixed (even after cutting the episode count again). Series have been released around 18 months apart since 2015, “early 2020” still fits that. 2014-15 is the only time in the past decade that uninterrupted runs have aired a year apart (13 months).

    #239837
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    I wish Chibnall would fuck off, frankly. That reminded for of his godawful Silurian two-parter from Series 5. Supposedly grand ideas muted by plodding execution. No wit, no panache, no translation of stakes. Even the episode title was awful; the sort of stock sci-fi title that deserves to be parodied. And the dialogue? Argh… Straight from the top:

    BORING WOMAN : Finally. This is where our journey stops.

    BORING MAN : You’re going to make this the place?

    “Here?!” would have conveyed that, if it was really fucking necessary. But it wasn’t, was it? It’s just shitty exposition which isn’t even trying to be actual dialogue. RTD would have loved that, I’m sure.

    His DW scripts range between bland and shite, the vision for the show is questionable, there’s at least one companion too many (Yaz’s turn to sit this episode out) and his producing abilities seem distinctly lacking if he can’t even deliver the episode quantities at the start of his tenure that the previous showrunners were capable of. Children seem to like the show right now, but 18 months will be a lifetime for them.

    #239896
    steven87gill
    Participant

    ”and his producing abilities seem distinctly lacking if he can’t even deliver the episode quantities at the start of his tenure that the previous showrunners were capable of. Children seem to like the show right now, but 18 months will be a lifetime for them”

    Yeah, a gap year after just one series is taking the piss, quite frankly.

    To this day I’m impressed with how quickly Moffat managed to get series 8 in the can, they filmed 1×75, 10×45 & 1×60 in just seven short months. And then came back a month later & filmed an hour long christmas special. I can’t imagine how stressful that probably was, but It’s taken Chibnall nearly 3 months longer to produce less content.

    ”Yeah, but the episodes look super polished”

    Yeah, but the problem is that most of the scripts… aren’t.

    #239898
    Warbodog
    Member

    ”Yeah, but the episodes look super polished”

    It looks drab and colourless now. I know they’ve upgraded the camera hardware, but I don’t remember being struck by many iconic shots this series – mainly the TARDIS on the hill, because it was used in promos, and the frog because it was funny. Everything was in neutral tones with a bit of yellow and most of the aliens are just humans now, because they think we’re too racist to empathise with the plights of blue people.

    #239976
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    Overall I enjoyed this series a lot, but it didn’t exactly wow me as I was hoping it would. Love both Doctor and companions though. It was nice to get a series of Doctor Who whose episodes were largely self-contained and unpretentious for a change, even if that’s a low bar to clear.

    Here’s hoping next series they bring back multi-parters, work out how to make room for all 3 companions in each episode, come up with some more memorable villains, and generally just improve upon Chris Chibnall’s overly expositional and shallow writing style.

    Also, Series 12 is “early 2020” so I guess that’s more of a gap six months than a gap year. It’s still disappointing to wait so long after they got such good momentum going. It’s bad enough we only got 10 episodes rather than 12 or 13!

    I wonder if they’re doing a Christmas special in 2019, or a another New Year’s special in 2020… or neither?

    #239982
    si
    Participant

    My guess is neither. Though I agree a 2019/20 seasonal would be great. ‘Tint going to happen though. Think we’re probably looking at about May 2020.

    #239983
    si
    Participant

    My guess is neither. Though I agree a 2019/20 seasonal would be great. ‘Tint going to happen though. Think we’re probably looking at about May 2020.

    #240048
    Dave
    Participant

    I wonder whether they’re planning a New Year’s Day debut for season 12. That would actually make the gap smaller than the gap between seasons 10 and 11.

    #240089

    It’ll be a shrove Tuesday special as Chibnall will have run out of New Year’s Day ideas by then.

    #241315
    Dave
    Participant

    RESOLUTION (mild spoilers follow)

    I thought that was a pretty good episode in the ‘Dalek’ mould – until the last five or ten minutes when it turned into a massive load of old guff.

    I was a bit surprised that such a complex functioning Dalek device could be constructed by a woman with her bare hands, but I guess if they made it look any more low-tech it could have been laughable. I was happy to suspend my disbelief on that front – less so with that focused vacuum tunnel (?) business at the end.

    #241316
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    I just get the feeling Chibnall is being pigheadly contrary for his own amusement now. After a series of non-returning monsters, he brings back arguably the most iconic alien threat in TV history and dispenses with the one thing that made them iconic for much of the runtime and then sticks them in a deliberately shit realisation of that for the rest. This really could have been any monster. A waste of a Dalek, frankly.

    Then there’s the “three companions” thing. That wasn’t crowded enough, so let’s throw in another 3 non-characters. In this week’s episode: Yaz got to escort two of them out of a buillding. That was pretty much her entire contribution to the proceedings. Bearing in mind Charlotte Ritchie’s character managed to make it through proceedings without any lasting damage, couldn’t they just have lumped all the things that happened to her onto Yaz. You know, just to give her something to do.

    Just mediocre, forgettable. I knew I wasn’t in for a good time, when we had a crappy voiceover narration opening the episode. Not sure that was required, and if you’re going to get someone with a very deep voice to do narrative, maybe sort out the audio levels of the background music so it’s actually discernible what is being said. Like the stupidly large captions, was it really necessary?

    The Microwave thing was signposted with the subtlety of a sledgehammer and the Doctor’s final plan was complete stupidity. So…she opens the door on a supernova and just expects the Dalek to fly out…but no one else? I mean, fair play it worked; but only because Chibnall decided it had to. It would have been more believable if Ryan’s Dad had sacrificed himself…but I’m glad we were spared of that as that would have been ghastly, and we’d probably have another 10 episodes of living under a grief cloud.

    What purpose is the continual mourning of Grace, a character we barely knew, actually serving?. Is this the only drama Chris Chibnall knows how to write competently? Dealing with the aftermath and consequences of dramatic events, rather than actually showing dramatic events? It worked for Broadchurch Series 1, it’s worked for fuck all else.

    Bleugh. The most interesting thing was the moment when the Doctor phoned up Laura Evelyn, interrupting her Bandersnatch coding to ask about UNIT. OK, that wasn’t really what happened, but it would have been slightly more interesting.

    This show has taken massive steps backwards. It’s neither cerebral enough to be interesting, nor quirky enough to be fun. The worst insult I can give it is that I will not miss it at all in 2019.

    Cack.

    #241347
    Stephen Abootman
    Participant

    Hard to disagree with any of that. Can see why there isn’t many attempts at humour in it these days if the best on offer is ‘the wifi’s down’ ‘what do we do?’ ‘we’ll have to have a conversation’.

    #241351
    Warbodog
    Member

    I’m sure it was fine for kids, I find pretty much all Dalek episodes a waste of time anyway, so didn’t get anything out of it. Just talked over the boring family drama bits. I was hoping that oven was going to end up saving the day in an amusing way, must have briefly forgotten who was writing it.

    stupidly large captions

    I’m watching Killing Eve at the moment and it has those, so maybe just another attempt to make Doctor Who look respectably trendy rather than distinctive.

    #241352
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    I’m sure if I gave two shits about Ryan that would have been a pretty touching episode, despite the fact that the forgiveness happens way too quickly and isn’t completely believable. It’s all too nice. More of Chibnall’s “stuff just happens” writing. More of the stupid throwbacks to events we haven’t seen – three or four of them at the beginning of the episode!

    Ryan doesn’t have dyspraxia. He just doesn’t. Until the writers decide to remind us that he’s supposed to.
    I hope we get another Terileptils story this year and they destroy the Doctor’s fucking screwdriver, god damn it. According to the screw-scan, sirs….

    Episode picked up somewhat around about the army scene, 12-year-old me would have found a Dalek with rockets really cool. I guess the Dalek was a part of the network thing they all have going (despite that only being introduced in about series 7 and this apparently being an OG Dalek from way back when) so knew who The Doctor was, otherwise how would it? I was hoping for a little moment where The Doctor tells the Dalek they have been defeated time and time again since it had been asleep, and would go on to be defeated time and time again in the future.

    #241353
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Oh I skipped the season finale btw and only watched this one because I knew there’d be a Dalek in it and it might actually be a bit Doctor Who-y. I should have just kept watching TNG, reading you lot’s comments on it hasn’t convinced me to go back and watch it.

    I’m glad we aren’t getting a series this year, because my New Year’s Resolution is to be less negative, which is impossible when I’m watching Chibnall Who.

    #241354
    Ridley
    Participant

    I was into the episode up until Ritchie’s Dalek hug then things started picking up towards the end but the ending was silly. The thought occurs that Nicholas Briggs could have played the archaeologist(?) so the human puppet/Dalek symbiote could have been more effective voicewise.

    Ryan doesn’t have dyspraxia. He just doesn’t. Until the writers decide to remind us that he’s supposed to.

    Is the dyspraxia supposed to be apparent in the way Ryan speaks? Cause it doesn’t seem to be a condition that is that overt to onlookers unless it’s extreme or pointed out so I’m not sure how much of that scans on screen without Cole looking like he can’t act or Ryan coming across as incompetent in general rather than struggling to keep up with certain ways.

    #241355
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    It just seems like he can’t act and the clumsiness never really comes up except “oh btw I can’t climb this ladder” and “not bad for a boy with dyspraxia eh”, to be fair I had a mate in high school who had it and it never really came up either. Ryan just acts like a normal character 95% of the time and I don’t know why they’ve given him this trait if it’s almost never relevant. It’s a small gripe, though.

    If the dyspraxia is the reason he talks like he’s out of breath from all the thinking he has to do with his 68 IQ, I guess that would explain it, but I thought it was because he was trying to put on the accent

    #241357

    I largely enjoyed the episode. It has it’s faults, but I think there are more positives to focus on. It generally felt like a decent-average Doctor Who episode. Nothing fantastic, and certainly not annual special worthy, but it kept me entertained and not bored like a lot of the rest of the series. Cut out the stuff with Ryan and his dad and the story is pretty solid right up to the resolution (pun intended) but where have we been seeing that a lot recently?? Maybe TV writers have forgotten how to write good endings.

    That said, it hasn’t really left me wanting more. Which is a shame. With such a long gap until the next series again, I’d have liked to have been left eager to see what is to come next. In reality I’m happy to patiently wait and hope not to be disappointed by another meh series.

    #241358
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Something that I noticed is that all the “it’s New Year’s btw” stuff felt really forced, especially the “here’s my resolution” line, and it didn’t feel like a festive or New Year’s special at all, just another episode. So my question is… why couldn’t you have just done the exact same, except on Christmas, to net an extra couple million viewers? A Christmas special doesn’t need to be ABOUT Christmas, it can just be ON Christmas, especially when your substitute New Year’s special has fuck all to do with it being New Year’s.

    I wish we weren’t at a stage where “decent-average” was a compliment and not a criticism. We used to rag on Gatiss episodes for being decent-average, which was usually shit in comparison to what surrounded them. Now I would welcome a Gatiss episode where I used to dread them.

    The idea of the Doctor and companions celebrating a holiday sort of makes sense if you assume that they keep track of how many hours have passed for the companions since they were picked up – say sixteen lots of 24 hours have passed, now it would be “Christmas” from their point of view. Not that you wouldn’t get horrific jetlag from travelling through time and space and going on sometimes incredibly long adventures all the time – you could be just about ready for bed, then travel to somewhere where it’s 9am and Daleks are trying to kill you. But then the concept of Christmas or it being any specific day falls apart when you have companions from different times, different planets etc. Would Nyssa join in with Tegan and the Doctor celebrating New Year’s?

    #241359
    Dave
    Participant

    It seems to me that the move to New Year is all part of the positioning of the show.

    They seem to want the show to be seen more like a flagship BBC drama these days, which is reflected in the Sunday night series slot and also in the New Year timing of the special (New Year’s Day having been a big day for new BBC dramas like Sherlock in recent years, or Luther this year).

    In comparison, Christmas specials are more often reserved for light-entertainment or comedy shows, and I get the impression that’s the kind of label that Chibnall is trying to shake.

    #241360
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    All the attempts to make Doctor Who seem like a modern, flagship drama (including the aspect ratio, oh God the aspect ratio) feel hollow and forced, and sucking the life, the spark, the identity out of the program. This isn’t Broadchurch. it’s Doctor Who. Turn up the lights and fill the screen, for a start.

    #241370
    steven87gill
    Participant

    Oh dear, that’s not a great overnight (may improve with catch up, mind) but it is indicative of the level of casual interest in the show & how it’s fallen since the premiere, to be honest.

    I don’t think Chibbers appreciates just how much good will he’s pissed away with this latest series.

    #241371
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Interesting to see news outlets that aren’t just The Sun (which has always ragged on Doctor Who, probably because it’s a relatively leftist show) running the “DW is hemorrhaging viewers” narrative, perhaps indicative of the general attitude towards the Chibnall era

    #241439
    Lily
    Participant

    I only got round to watching it last night, as I’ve been in no real hurry to catch up. Almost wish I hadn’t bothered as it’s yet another ‘eh’ episode.

    It really felt like the pacing was all over the place, one minute we’re having quiet conversations, cut to action sequence of dalek causing havoc, cut back to a different emotional conversation. It just felt really disjointed and unsure what tone was being set. Then just to mix it up there’s a handful of comedy scenes being thrown in for no good reason. Oh the Doctor is panicking about this alien invasion and is desperately calling for backup? Of course that’s the perfect time to throw in a “aren’t call centres annoying” comedy bit!

    I’ve also got to the point where I stop worrying about all of the plot holes/conveniences now. The archaeologist guy -happens- to be an expert in this 9th century cult that just -happens- to be relevant to the plot, complete with illustrated guide on how to kill a dalek? Fine. Whatever. A dismembered dalek can be buried for over two thousand years, but with a little UV light teleport its bits back together again and live? Fine. Whatever. I’m willing to suspend disbelief, but things still need to have their own internal logic.

    I think another problem is that they try to make things seem grand and epic when they’re not. Having the Doctor looking at tardis monitors, running around shouting “oh no, it’s turning off the wifi, it’s shutting down the power!” is meant to sound epic, but all we’re seeing is her looking at monitors. It doesn’t -feel- threatening. Go back to season 1 and watch Eccleston stare in horror at one tin can trundling through a single building and you really -feel- the threat of a Dalek.

    As for the end, I couldn’t really care less about the Dad. We’re told all season he’s a bit of a loser and doesn’t even really say sorry to Ryan during their heart to heart. The only reason I didn’t want him to die was because that would give too much importance to a nothing character.

    If I could re-write the last few episodes, I would hold off on the Graham/Ryan moments and leave them for this one. Dalek jumps onto Graham, Graham is willing to sacrifice himself for the others, “I’ve had a good life” and all that, Ryan says “I love you Grandad”, Graham lives, everyone happy and sentimental. Job done.

    As for the ratings, yeah as a single number 5.15 million is low even for a normal episode, let alone a ‘special’, but everything on New Years Day was low. It was still the 4th highest show that day with the top only 0.5m more. It’s not really a case of the show “haemorrhaging viewers” but just that not many people watch TV on NYD. But let’s not let facts spoil a nice narrative eh?

    #241446
    steven87gill
    Participant

    ”but everything on New Years Day was low. It was still the 4th highest show that day with the top only 0.5m more. It’s not really a case of the show “haemorrhaging viewers” but just that not many people watch TV on NYD. But let’s not let facts spoil a nice narrative eh?”

    Still shit numbers though, however much people might want to spin this as ‘no big deal’.

    And considering what the opener pulled just a few short months ago, there’s no excuse for that overnight, also i could care less what other shows are doing, saying ‘but *all* T.V is down these days’ just sounds like the sort of racing drivers excuses that were pulled during the latter half of the Moffat era when the numbers started falling.

    If it was compelling, interesting T.V that gave a reason for people to give a shit about it, people would’ve tuned in on the night, regardless of what external factors may have been at play.

    It didn’t, & they didn’t. Even on 28 day, 4 screen catch up, the show is nearly 5 million down from the opener to episode 9, so what else do you call that other than ”haemorrhaging viewers”?

    Again, it may make up for the shortfall on catch up, so this could all be a moot point anyway.

    #241447
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    At the tail end of the Moffat era I know only a handful of people who still watched the show, but they at least enjoyed it. Now, those same people are with me when I say it’s shite, bar one. When I was in high school everybody loved or hated Doctor Who, now I’m the only person who ever mentions it. I don’t know about ratings, but it certainly feels like a show nobody watches anymore. I hope the ratings fall to two million and we get either a kick up the arse or a cancellation

    #241485
    Lily
    Participant

    >the show is nearly 5 million down from the opener to episode 9, so what else do you call that other than ”haemorrhaging viewers”?

    Whittaker has a gap of 4.5 million from her opener to the lowest, not 5. Ecclestone had drop of 4 million, Tennant and Smith both lost 3.7 million in their first seasons. Ecclestone lost 2.8 million in the first week, Whittaker lost 1.9 in her first week. The only one that didn’t have a large gap is Capaldi, but far fewer watched his opener in the first place.

    So I’d say that losing millions of viewers is pretty much par for the course in a new Doctor’s season.

    It just bugs me that the media has been ripping on this season since the start, making out that losing viewers in the first week was a sign that a woman doctor and ‘sjw friendly’ companions was a disaster, rather than a totally normal pattern of viewing behaviour. There’s is always a large drop after the first week. They then carried on the story about it being a ‘ratings disaster’ even when it was getting better ratings than it has for a few years now.

    Rather than the hyperbole of a haemorrhage, I would say there has however been a steady decline in viewers. Other seasons have peaks and troughs according to how interesting the next episode looks. Tennant had a big jump in viewers for the first Cybermen story and again for the return of Rose in Donna’s finale. That’s been missing this season, there’s been no ‘wow I need to watch that’ episodes to get people back watching. It also doesn’t help that we’re a whole 3 episodes short of a full season.

    Going back to the NYD episode though, with catchup it might just reach 7 million, which will scrape about where Capaldi got with Xmas specials. So yeah, it is pretty shit and probably an indication of what’s to come. If they don’t change something and start writing actually good and enjoyable Who soon, they’ll be back into the ratings of Capaldi’s last season in no time, which were objectively awful.

    Pretty blobs on a chart – https://i.imgur.com/KAlsHjp.png

    #241488
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    It depends what media you read, what narrative you get from it. The Sun has always hated Doctor Who, for example, but almost all the lefty outlets were spunking undue praise all over this series in the beginning, but do seem for the most part to me much more disparaging of the show now.

    I think trying to appeal to people who just don’t like Doctor Who is a waste of time. I’ve got a mate who just will not watch it. No matter if the Doctor is a woman, black, or a talking dog, they’ve already decided Doctor Who is shite and nothing will change that.

    It is a shame that the first female Doctor and the obviously deliberately multicultural TARDIS team has just so happened to coincide with the worst season of the show since Season 24. I wonder how much lasting damage something like that will do to people’s acceptance of women and minorities in this way. Of course there are people who will resist such a change anyway, but then for people on the fence or people who are indifferent, Series 11 is hardly a glowing review for this new, inclusive view of the future. It happened to Star Wars, too. They spent so long making sure they ticked all the representation boxes and no time on the scripts or making the stories exciting or anything. In a time when all the world was watching and they have a responsibility to deliver, they totally dropped the ball.

    #241520
    Warbodog
    Member

    >I think trying to appeal to people who just don’t like Doctor Who is a waste of time.

    RTD did that extremely well though. I was a mod on a consumer review site back then and most people who reviewed the DVDs were non-typical “girlie” fans who loved things like the kitchen sink drama and Britney/Weakest Link jokes among the adventure, and would usually say how they didn’t expect to like Doctor Who based on its reputation.

    Obviously Chibnall was hoping for the same thing, but couldn’t find a way to really hold the public interest beyond some worthwhile historicals that he didn’t even write.

    #241551
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    RTD has his Producer hat on so much of the time. He was great at “marketing” the show, and reading The Writer’s Tale who realise how much thought he gave to scheduling (Waters of Mars going against The X Factor final!) and the desire to keep the TARDIS crew fresh every series (whether that be a change of Doctor or companion) so every premiere got a bit of a ratings bump due to viewer curiosity.

    #241560
    Ben Kirkham
    Participant

    I think RTD was the best showrunner of 21st Century Doctor Who. He knew how to attract and keep an audience, he kept the show very faithful to its past yet also made it accessible. He didn’t hit the bullseye 100% of the time, but I found it to be event television for the majority of his era. Plus, I really like him; I could listen to him talk all day. His other stuff outside Doctor Who is remarkable, particularly The Second Coming and Bob & Rose.

    #241562
    tombow
    Participant

    I hated the weakest link/big brother episode in 2005, to the point that I stopped watching, annoyed. I just felt like it was a silly idea. But I just watched it and the Bad Wolf finale again. I quite liked them this time. Maybe the theme was ..it’s all about tv..this season was all about getting Who back on TV, so they were exploring the kind of trash tv they had to compete with (in that sci fi-less time). Or something.

    #242453
    si
    Participant

    The Series 11 Bluray boxset arrived today.
    It’s very good. And looks fantastic.

    #242454

    Shame the content is meh

    #242458
    Ben Kirkham
    Participant

    I don’t see any reason why Resolution couldn’t have been included, given the release date of the boxset.

    #242459

    BBC money grab isn’t it! They’ll charge you another £15 for that episode in a couple of months time

    #242460
    Dave
    Participant

    Might it end up as the first episode in an eventual Series 12 boxset?

    That’s how the Christmas specials were handled for the Tennant series on DVD – they all ended up as the first episode of the next season rather than the last episode of the current season. I think it happened later too – the first Smith series DVD set only featured the regular season 5 episodes and then ‘A Christmas Carol’ went on the start of series 6.

    #242461
    Warbodog
    Member

    I never liked or agreed with that ordering. All episodes from the same calendar year feel like they belong together, regardless of whether Christmas is actually closer to the next batch. Some of them even lead in directly with cliffhangers.

    (Apart from The Next Doctor, which belongs with the Specials year. And series 7 being messed up anyway. And that year when there was only a Christmas special, so put it with the next series. And Resolution being closer to its parent series than any other special but actually being in a different year just to mess it up. All the rest of the time).

    #242462
    Ben Kirkham
    Participant

    Back in the day, that was quite possible. Given the state of physical releases at the moment and the staggering lack of detail (Thanks for the Memories, the Doctor Who Season 10 box having no information as to what was on each disc), I doubt it’ll get included and since we’re waiting until 2020 for the next series it seems too long a gap. Same thing for Series 10. If BBC Worldwide waited until January 2019 to release it, it could have had Twice Upon A Time on it. My expectations for all releases now is a type of cautious anticipation. I think DVD/ Blu-Ray releases generally started to go really downhill about the time of Series 8.

    #242463
    Ben Kirkham
    Participant

    In the early 2000s I was excited to open up a DVD and delve in. Nowadays (with a few exceptions), it mainly feels like a duty for the sake of completeness.

    #242464

    I mean, that makes sense in some respects.

    The Christmas Invasion is Tennant’s first episode and really a precursor to series 2.
    So for each Christmas episode to appear at the start of the series 2, 3, 4 makes sense.

    Then you get the 2010 specials … how were they released? As a set or individually?

    At series 5 I would have flipped it though, and put the Christmas episode at the end of the series boxset (although looking, there is a rather larger gap between series 5 ending in June and Christmas so maybe forgive them there)

    So it goes at the start of series 6

    but then because of that it starts to get a bit messy

    Series 7 has 2 Christmas episodes. The Doctor, The Widow and the Wardrobe (which was aired just shy of 3 months after the end of series 6) and then The Snowmen which comes in the middle because of the series being split.

    Originally there were released as Doctor Widow and Wardrobe, series 7 part 1, The Snowmen, Series 7 Part 2

    The Snowmen comes 3months after 7a and 3months before 7b.

    And this was of no surprise to the BBC, they knew the break in the series was happening and knew when it would be released so it was at this point they could have easily flipped it around and put the Christmas episode in with the series somewhere … presumably at the start of 7b as they’d wanted 7a out in time for Christmas DVD sales.

    No matter on we go.

    Series 8 ends 6 weeks before Christmas but that special gets pushed onto the series 9 DVD. Series 9 ended 20 days before Christmas.

    Again, pushing the series 8 DVD in time for Christmas missed the the Christmas special for that year … but at this point, Last Christmas fits in much more with series 8 than 9

    So the series 9 DVD has Last Christmas at the start and The Husbands of River Song at the End

    Finally starting to make a bit of sense I fell putting Husbands on the series 9 DVD

    Series 10 opens with Doctor Mysterio … that’s fine, it was the only episode the previous year. But guess what. The very final episode of Capaldi’s run, Twice Upon a Time is missing.

    And it is omitted from the series 11 DVD too. It’s released on it’s own.

    Now again, I get that scheduling is an odd one for some of these, whilst they would make sense to be attached to other series, the fact they come out on Christmas day means hold back on the series release until after Christmas or put it out separately or on the next series dvd

    At this point I’m not really sure of my point … other than from 5 on wards I feel that the Christmas specials belong at the end of the series, not the start … though I do realise not always possible

    However Ben is right, they could have put Resolution on the series 11 DVD. Especially as the DVD came out after Christmas. It really is the series ender and given we won’t have another series for at least 12 months … it just seems like a deliberate act to leave it off and put it out as a separate DVD as they have with other specials in recent years before it.

    That became a ridiculously and needlessly long post. Feel free to ignore it

    #242466
    Warbodog
    Member

    It’s mixed, but I find most of the Christmas specials work much better as epilogues wrapping up the year rather than distracting prologues before you can get into the year. I mainly can’t get behind Christmas Carol being 6×00 when it’s the honeymoon after the wedding or TDTWATW being 7×00 when it symbolises the end of my own honeymoon period with my the show since 2010, my enthusiasm gradually dialling down across 6B and finding a new level there.

    I can handle it. It’s not as bad as when the Narnia books are arranged in “chronological” rather than publishing order, that’s a hill to die on.

    #245388
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Two decent video essays on why Series 11 wasn’t very good – a short one and a much longer, more detailed one. One of the most telling things in the second video is when they describe the characters of the previous Doctors in brief, and question what defines each series and it’s Doctor. 2, 4, 9 and especially 11 are described extremely well and have a lot to latch onto, and the brief description of 12’s arc actually made me smile. Of course, it is cheating a bit to compare a Doctor’s entire run to their first series – except in the case of 9, who only got one series, and who still got a great deal of depth and character. It’s very funny and indicative of the issue when they point out that the Doctor said “I love conspiracies” and “I hate conspiracies” in the space of a couple of episode.

    The reason these videos stood out to me and merit sharing in my eyes is because I usually avoid videos like this, because after similar videos on The Force Awakens brought up some genuine points before quickly descending into misogyny and racism and “anti-SJW” stuff, I assumed these videos would do the same – thankfully, they do not.

    10 mins: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCfoUVeFwZU
    20 mins: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU2ftCitvyQ

    #245441
    Nick R
    Participant

    I don’t think that one of those two links is what you intended to post.

    #245443
    si
    Participant

    I don’t think that one of those two links is what you intended to post.

    Doesn’t last 20 minutes, for a start.

    #245470
    Stephen Abootman
    Participant

    Kirk making love to a mountain would have been far more entertaining than most of Series 11

    #245489
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha oops

    not the worst thing i could have accidentally pasted into a comment

    this is what i meant to paste: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aysMP3z0NC4

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