Is Justice a deliberate retcon…or is Kryten lying?

[Pete Part Three]

I’ve reached Justice in my rewatch, and I’m always intrigued over Kryten’s defence of Rimmer.

The Justice field works by detecting a person’s guilt (rather than trying to determine actual culpability), and Kryten’s defence hinges on this. He argues that Rimmer couldn’t possibly be guilty of 2nd degree murder, as his responsibilities extended no further than repairing vending machines. It’s Rimmer’s grand delusions over his role on Red Dwarf that is feeding his guilt.

Interestingly, you could possibly argue that his death scene in Me2 is a faked reconstruction along these lines; Hollister yelling at Rimmer “It was your responsibility to fix the drive plate” could be a warped Rimmer’s way of remembering the accident, but there’s clearly several lines in The End which confirm that Rimmer *was* responsible, and he *was* in the drive room when he died (despite clearly not having a reason to go there regularly).

The curious thing is that Justice never actually reveals whether this is Rob and Doug retconning events (and bringing things in line with Infinity, as they did a lot throughout Series IV) or whether Kryten is deliberately lying. Is it seeding the court-case later, when Kryten says “Boy, I’m really getting the hang of this “lie mode.”” when they enter Justice World, or just a coincidence?.

I’d also forgotten that Kryten refers to Rimmer as a “retard” at one point. Urgh.

Topic

[Plastic Percy]

This is going to be The Spastics Society all over again.

[Pete Part Three]

>Urgh. Virtue signalling. Yuck.

Yeah, that’s what that is. Nothing to do with the fact that I’ve had a bunch of experiences since I last saw the episode, and that’s influenced how I view that term.

I guess you don’t feel uncomfortable about Major saying “w*gs” and “n***ers” in Fawlty Towers, either.

[RamesesNiblickTheThird]

“I guess you don’t feel uncomfortable about Major saying “w*gs” and “n***ers” in Fawlty Towers, either.”

Wigs? Nutters? Errrr not really.

:/

[Ben Saunders]

God i haven’t heard the word wags since about 2007, took me a second to realise how w*gs could be offensive. Footballers wives, innit?

Maybe it’ll turn out that Red Dwarf is actually just extremely prescient and none of these words are actually offensive in the future, making the show an accurate depiction of 23rd century society

[Ben Saunders]

Although I’m still not convinced that WAGs is such a horrific word it requires asterisks. Am I missing something?

[Dave]

Golly, I think you might be.

[RamesesNiblickTheThird]

> Although I’m still not convinced that WAGs is such a horrific word it requires asterisks. Am I missing something?

It’s because they are such slags.

[Ben Saunders]

It’s not a word that anybody I have ever come into contact with has ever used, sonI probably don’t get it. Us it an English thing?

[bloodteller]

i’d never heard the word before until just now when it was mentioned on the forum, so I’m kind of lost here too. according to google it just means the wives/girlfriends of sports people?

[clem]

Wrong vowel, lads.

[bloodteller]

oh christ

[bloodteller]

>There are a few jokes from early Red Dwarf that played fine at the time but are a bit more wince-inducing now.

out of interest, which jokes would those be? the only one i can think of that seems a bit iffy now is Rimmer’s line about “Awful is when you’re fumbling with your date in the back of your car and you discover she’s got testicles” which could be viewed as transphobic or something

[Ben Saunders]

Wigs? Wegs? Wugs? Wygs?

….oh nevermind I worked it out.

Also drug-crazed transvestite is one of those, I think bloodteller. And people also have issues with any gay panic stuff or the McGruder having a concussion stuff

[pi r squared]

Whilst I’m sure the sentence would be rephrased if written in 2018, it is worth pointing out that Kryten refers to Rimmer as an “emotional retard” (ie. emotionally-stunted, which is reasonably apt) rather than calling him a “retard” outright. Not ideal but at least marginally less offensive, and I’m sure – like Steve Coogan famously regretting using “spastic” in I’m Alan Partridge – that Doug and Rob would probably rewrite it if they could.

As a half-black person, I don’t enjoy the Major’s niggers and wogs “joke” in Fawlty Towers, but I appreciate that (a) it’s a product of its time, (b) the point is supposed to be demonstrating the Major’s senility and outdated (even for 1974) values and is therefore meant to be uncomfortable, and (c) even in those days it only gets a pretty lukewarm response from the audience.

Judging a 1991 episode by 2018 sensibilities is always going to be tough and acceptable language and behaviour will inevitably change. Growing up, our family would happily use the terms “half-caste” and “coloured” to describe ourselves (leading to my toddler sister happily describing herself as “coloured-in” to people!) but this would be frowned upon nowadays, even though our mixed race little unit was anything but racist.

[Dave]

out of interest, which jokes would those be? the only one i can think of that seems a bit iffy now is Rimmer’s line about “Awful is when you’re fumbling with your date in the back of your car and you discover she’s got testicles” which could be viewed as transphobic or something

Mostly ones revolving around gender politics spring to mind. Not a huge deal but they just play a little differently now.

Largely though I think the show’s comedy is pretty timeless.

[Pete Part Three]

>Wigs? Nutters? Errrr not really.

Hey, Rameses. How about we just ignore each other going forward? Two threads in, and I’m already sick of you.

> is worth pointing out that Kryten refers to Rimmer as an “emotional retard”

Yes, I appreciate this is the intention. Unfortunately, if you stick a bunch of adjectives (“neurotic”, “under-achieving”) in front of the term, it gets a bit lost.

[bloodteller]

>Yes, I appreciate this is the intention. Unfortunately, if you stick a bunch of adjectives (“neurotic”, “under-achieving”) in front of the term, it gets a bit lost.

if it’s any consolation the Dave repeats of the episode remove the “under-acheiving emotional retard” part of the sentence and so Kryten just calls him a neurotic

[RamesesNiblickTheThird]

> Hey, Rameses. How about we just ignore each other going forward? Two threads in, and I’m already sick of you.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Ben Saunders]

Honestly, if you’re straight you wouldn’t exactly want to find out your date had balls, but i could imagine somebody thinking up a joke like that today and thinking “ooh, better not” and binning it. Worth noting that I know quite a few transgender people who make jokes like that anyway, and would be fine if i did similar. It’s quite interesting what exactly they deem offensive and inoffensive, often they’re fine with jokes like that but then there are very specific things you’d never even think about which bother them.

Either I’m young enough to have never really heard “wogs” or it just doesn’t get used by people i know, i only vaguely know what it even means. Which shows its a pretty old-fashioned term.

“Emotional retard” does soften the blow a little bit, up until now i thought he had actually just straight up called him retarded and I had somehow forgotten. I would absolutely change the line were it being written today, but flat out censoring it is a curious idea (I believe things should be presented as-was for the most part, but of course there will be guidelines for this sort of thing)

[bloodteller]

>Worth noting that I know quite a few transgender people who make jokes like that anyway, and would be fine if i did similar. It’s quite interesting what exactly they deem offensive and inoffensive, often they’re fine with jokes like that but then there are very specific things you’d never even think about which bother them.

yeah, i mean i’m transgender and i don’t find the joke offensive- honestly i think it’s a pretty funny line. but i do know plenty of people in the LGBTQ community who would probably get offended by it. either way it’s on Bodysnatcher which is a ludicrously hard to find DVD (saw it in CeX today for 42.00!) so you’d have to be actively searching for that to even stumble across the line to begin with

[Warbodog]

Not counting VIII bollocks, the main one I’ve found “a bit dodgy” is the way Lister/Craig delivers the “drug-crazed transvestite” line in Balance of Power, where it doesn’t really come across that he’s jokingly making light of Goering’s slightly worse traits. When he brings up the same points in Meltdown, it just seems like fun trivia Lister (/Rob/Doug) picked up from a documentary he watched.

I know a lot of old comedies treated rape for laughs, but Rimmer taking advantage of McGruder was always supposed to be horrible. Pre-Me² Rimmer really isn’t likeable, we just love him already. “Served her right for being concussed” doesn’t get a knowing laugh, and Lister makes a disapproving face.

[Ben Saunders]

That’s how I see it, Worbo, it’s more a joke at the expense of Rimmer thab MacGruder. How does the transvestite line come off to you?

Maybe that gag laughing at JFK’s successor crossdressing would catch some flak today, but similar gags were being made right up until the late 00’s.

Transvestite feels like an old fashioned term as well, to the point that I’m not even that sure what it’s actually supposed to mean. This is what Google is for, though

[RamesesNiblickTheThird]

I’ve never seen a fan-base so offended by a show they claim to love. I remember the series 11 podcasts and practically every week ‘someone’ was offended by something or other.

I don’t know how some of you leave your house in the morning. I almost feel sorry for you in a way.

[International Debris]

Yes, I think you’re mixing up ‘finding stuff problematic’ and ‘being so upset as to not be able to leave the house’ there. Not something I’d get confused at, but just wanted to clear that up for you.

[Dave]

I almost feel sorry for him in a way.

[Ben Saunders]

Yeah i feel sorry for people like him, honestly

[bloodteller]

>I’ve never seen a fan-base so offended by a show they claim to love.

you can love a show and still find parts of it offensive, shit, or offensively shit. most people here like Red Dwarf as a whole but despise Pete, for example.

don’t know if anyone hated Pete so much they were unable to leave the house though.

[International Debris]

Yes, I think there’s a lot more ire expressed at the shitness of VIII than there is at the occasionally mis-judged joke, but nobody ever feels sorry for people for that. Frankly, I think I’m deserving some sympathy for how angry VIII makes me.

[clem]

Very often on my days off work, I *don’t* leave my house in the morning! Same goes for when I’m on late shifts. Anyway I live in a flat.

[RamesesNiblickTheThird]

Where’s My Thribble?

[Hamish]

> Very often on my days off work, I *don’t* leave my house in the morning!

But is it because of Pete or Timewave?

For me it is Timewave.

[RamesesNiblickTheThird]

> Very often on my days off work, I *don’t* leave my house in the morning! Same goes for when I’m on late shifts. Anyway I live in a flat.

Then my out of context taken comment wasn’t meant for the likes of you. But thanks for playing though.

I live in a bungalow myself. It’s a college night so I’m not allowed out.

[Ben Paddon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuBhNlwArso

[RamesesNiblickTheThird]

[Taiwan Tony]

>I’ve reached Justice in my rewatch

Where are you at now? And will you be watching, you know, all of it?
Sometimes I occasionally think about watching 7 and 8 again.

[International Debris]

Don’t do it.

[Taiwan Tony]

Okay, I won’t.

[Ben Saunders]

7 is worth a revisit. 8 exists.

[flanl3]

I occasionally still sit up with a start with a sudden rage because I’ve remembered that Timewave exists, but that’s mostly not because it’s offensive, just that it’s utter shit and I’d rather spend an evening smelling my own farts than watching it once.

[Moonlight]

I hope the crap episode in Series XIII is better than Timewave. If it’s at least as good as Can of Worms, we’re fine.

[Pete Part Three]

>Where are you at now?

I started with The End on the 30th Anniversary and then switched to doing 2 eps each weekend. Will be watching Meltdown on Saturday, and then Holoship on Sunday. And probably the Series IV DVD documentary at some point.

I’ve really enjoyed rewatching I-IV because I haven’t seen them in years, and picking up new bits and pieces has been interesting.

>And will you be watching, you know, all of it?

I’m borderline interested to see VII again.

Doubt I have the stamina or inclination to do VIII but haven’t decided 100% either way. I don’t think I’ve seen it properly in about 17 years. Even when it came out on DVD, I remembering slapping on the cast commentaries once but never watching the episodes without that, so the last time I did a proper rewatch was on VHS (pretty sure Bytes 1,2 were the first things I bought on Amazon). I don’t ever tend to change my opinions on Red Dwarf from my initial viewing, so it would just be 4 hours of thinking ‘Oh, yeah. This is why I hate this”.

Back to Earth is also a struggle for me, but I might get that over with in one sitting via the Director’s Cut.

[RamesesNiblickTheThird]

Timewave possibly has the worst joke in the series history and also one of the biggest let downs of not fulfilling its potential going for it I suppose

The jail cell scene is better than most of series 8 for me though

I’d just put all of series 8 in a pile at the end of the recent list if i did it

[Moonlight]

I’d still sooner rewatch Timewave than any of Series VIII. Anyone who says otherwise clearly hasn’t watched VIII in a long time.

[Ben Saunders]

I watched it at the start of this year and I’d gladly throw in BitR before Timewave, which I rewatched last month. All of it, the extended version.

[Hamish]

Well, I actually did re-watch Pete and Krytie TV alongside Timewave in order to finalize my Pearl Poll rankings last January. I left Timewave exactly where it was – at the bottom.

[Dave]

I watched VIII a few months before voting too.

Timewave was third from bottom, only Pete Part One and Krytie TV were worse.

[bloodteller]

>I’d still sooner rewatch Timewave than any of Series VIII. Anyone who says otherwise clearly hasn’t watched VIII in a long time.

i watched VIII last week. i still think Timewave is a lot worse than anything in VIII tbh.

[bloodteller]

despite being shit, Pete Part 2 at least has some funny jokes in it that make me laugh. Timewave was shit *and* not funny, so that made Timewave the worse episode tbh. i think i did put it at the absolute bottom in the latest poll

[Bargain Bin Holly]

Timewave was pretty good

[International Debris]

Timewave made me laugh, and also cringe, and also wince. Most of 8 just makes me cringe and wince.

[Author]

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