Home Forums Ganymede & Titan Forum It is not too late for the cast?

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  • #1787
    thomasaevans
    Participant

    Not that I would EVER want to replace the original cast of Red Dwarf, But would It work now that they’re all alot older?

    Surley movies and episodes are pushing it? Then again… an episode following on from eight cliffhanger would be ok, could be a few years after it.

    #123845
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    Well personally I think it is too late to re-cast, BUT I’m bored and it be a potentially huge debate.

    #123846

    It depends at least in part, I guess, on how well you think they’ve all aged. (Except possibly Robert, considering he’d be in makeup which could hide most of whatever Time has chosen to do with his face.)

    #123848

    > Surley movies and episodes are pushing it? Then again? an episode following on from eight cliffhanger would be ok, could be a few years after it.

    Maybe Rimmer a starbug that was left behind, a year or 2 on, trying to find a way to revive the Dwarf, which would have to happen within the first 10 mins so as not to waste the film.

    #123853
    Baz
    Participant

    You could do the old fast forward scrolling text trick to bring things up to a point where the original cast could be used…

    #123860
    pfm
    Participant

    I always thought that one way of doing the movie and fitting it in with series continuity would be to have a young cast to start with up to the everybody’s dead scene and meeting Rimmer and the Cat (this would only be the first 10 minutes of the film), then cutting forward 20 years or something and have the proper cast.

    #123861
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    In theory, they’ll never be too old for the movie, because it’s a a complete re-boot, and so the age of the characters can be anything Doug needs. After all, Lister was a man in his 40s in the original pilot script for Red Dwarf.

    #123869
    Turk Thrust
    Participant

    That Lister was a completely different character though and I think that age is relevant to the character as he has always been written for the TV show. Having a man in his 20s who is a slob and a bum is fine but it’s much more difficult to pull that off when you have an actor who is in his mid-40s (or older) in the role.

    #123870
    Andrew
    Participant

    > That Lister was a completely different character though and I think that age is relevant to the character as he has always been written for the TV show

    Not always. Most of series one was written for the brain-fried, washed-out 40-something Lister.

    #123871
    Phil
    Participant

    What’s an iguana?

    #123872
    Turk Thrust
    Participant

    >> That Lister was a completely different character though and I think that age is relevant to the character as he has always been written for the TV show

    >Not always. Most of series one was written for the brain-fried, washed-out 40-something Lister.

    Sure, but the character had already been changed to incorporate the slobbishness which would now be difficult to pull off.

    The ‘what’s an iguana?’ comment to me indicates more a lack of general knowledge than anything else. I can think of a lot of people who I’ve met who wouldn’t ever have heard of one.

    #123875
    Phil
    Participant

    Oh I wasn’t trying to make any greater point about the line. I just have a hard time not thinking of “What’s an iguana?” whenever someone discusses series I Lister.

    #123876
    Tanya Jones
    Participant

    >Sure, but the character had already been changed to incorporate the slobbishness which would now be difficult to pull off.

    You’ve not seen the 50-something guy who lives in the house opposite us, clearly.

    #123877
    Andrew
    Participant

    >>> That Lister was a completely different character though and I think that age is relevant to the character as he has always been written for the TV show

    >>Not always. Most of series one was written for the brain-fried, washed-out 40-something Lister.

    >Sure, but the character had already been changed to incorporate the slobbishness which would now be difficult to pull off.

    ‘Had already been changed’? Not sure what you mean.

    Series I was written before casting and rehearsals (with the exception of Me2). So the character wasn’t changed at all. What slobbishness was there is in the original scripts for the 40-something version – Lister always wearing the same shirt, due to saving up his pay, is in the very original pilot script (reprinted in the Omnibus).

    If you look at what Rob and Doug had in mind – a Reverend-Jim-esque fried-brain loser, out of shape, washed-up, unable to woo Kochanski but with a certain charm and likeability – there is a performer who fits the bill: Johnny Vegas.

    Seriously. Ignore the years of Dwarf history, go back to the start, THAT’S the thing they originally intended.

    #123878
    pfm
    Participant

    Everyone should just forget about ‘what’s an iguana?’ It’s clearly the worst line in all 52 episodes.

    #123879
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    If you look at what Rob and Doug had in mind – a Reverend-Jim-esque fried-brain loser, out of shape, washed-up, unable to woo Kochanski but with a certain charm and likeability – there is a performer who fits the bill:

    Craig Charles, before rehab.

    #123880
    Turk Thrust
    Participant

    > Series I was written before casting and rehearsals (with the exception of Me2). So the character wasn?t changed at all. What slobbishness was there is in the original scripts for the 40-something version – Lister always wearing the same shirt, due to saving up his pay, is in the very original pilot script (reprinted in the Omnibus).

    ok. I stand corrected.

    I think Rob and/or Doug have mentioned before though something about none of the slobbishness being there when they first conceived the character. I probably took the comment slightly out of context though.

    I still think that it can be a problem. Paul Alexander has talked about how it feels wrong for middle aged men to act like students and if Craig Charles had been in his mid-40s for all of those series (a physical impossibility I know) then Lister could have seemed a much sadder and less likeable character.

    #123881
    Andrew
    Participant

    > I think Rob and/or Doug have mentioned before though something about none of the slobbishness being there when they first conceived the character.

    Certainly a lot of the lager/curry stuff was introduced later.

    #123882
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    Paul Alexander is wrong about Men Behaving Badly. I reckon the last few series were the best.

    #123883
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > there is a performer who fits the bill: Johnny Vegas.

    GET OUT

    > Paul Alexander is wrong about Men Behaving Badly. I reckon the last few series were the best.

    ,AND YOU.

    I’m quite fond of early MBB, but then I picked it up on ITV as Tony was introduced. The peak was the early Beeb years. Towards the end Tony and Gary seemed to become less rounded and more caricature & cliche.

    #123884
    Andrew
    Participant

    >> there is a performer who fits the bill: Johnny Vegas.

    > GET OUT

    Not asking for you to like the guy, or want him as Lister now. Just saying it’s accurate to what was conceived and written for.

    #123889
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    I know, and the worst bit is you’re right.

    #123890
    John Hoare
    Participant

    I must admit, certain things worry me about the Movie, or any new series, if they ever go ahead… but the age of the cast has never been one of them. Certainly not at the moment. Look at Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan – age can *always* be taken into account in the script.

    People don’t stop being funny as soon as they hit 40.

    #123892
    Phil
    Participant

    >People don?t stop being funny as soon as they hit 40.

    You hope…!

    #123893
    pfm
    Participant

    > Paul Alexander is wrong about Men Behaving Badly. I reckon the last few series were the best.

    The last series was a piece of shit, as were the last special episodes. There comes a point where a show is far too self-aware due to it being immersed in public conciousness.

    If you watch Ideal you’ll know that Johnny Vegas would have made a decent Lister

    > People don?t stop being funny as soon as they hit 40.

    True, but that isn’t the reason to be concerned about the cast’s age. OK, it wouldn’t matter one jot for a series, but for the film definitely, especially considering it was supposedly going to retell the crew being wiped out, stasis, Cat etc. With them all being (let’s face it) middle-aged….right, Harrison Ford is mid-60s and he still looks like Indiana Jones and is making the fourth Indy film. So it isn’t impossible. But he, like Stallone as Rocky Balboa, is a classic film character.

    #123894
    John Hoare
    Participant

    But why should it *matter* if the cast is older, just because it’s retelling the crew being wiped out? It’s a complete reboot, not linked to the TV series. Again, the Lister originally-going-to-be-40 thing comes into play here.

    #123899
    Turk Thrust
    Participant

    I guess it would still be possible to make a good Dwarf movie (though obviously not a profitable one) even if the cast were in their 70s. It would all depend on how Doug would write it.

    I’ve already mentioned that I think Lister’s slobbishness would have to be toned down but I also think that the relationship between him and Kochanski would have to change a little. To have a couple of middle aged people (one of whom is very attractive) who had never been married, had children or really done anything could seem unconvincing.

    The childishness of her character, and some of the other characters, might have to change a little too.

    Those changes definitely could be made then but there would always be the possibility of the ’60 year old wearing a pair of shorts’ scenario developing if a comeback went wrong.

    #123964
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > Ideal you?ll know that Johnny Vegas would have made a decent Lister

    *Cough*BOLLOCKS*cough

    The thing is with this reset, Lister was originally going to be older stuff. The way it worked out, the way it became a hit, Lister wasn’t older. Lister was a young cool black guy in his mid 20s. A character a lot of people that age and younger could associate with as a guy who had so much more potential and such good ideals but wasted his life bumming around. That’s the Lister that we have in Red Dwarf. That’s the Lister that people kept watching. It’s a nice enough idea to reboot and go with the original Lister concept but we have no indication if that would be anywhere near as popular.

    #123965
    John Hoare
    Participant

    It?s a nice enough idea to reboot and go with the original Lister concept but we have no indication if that would be anywhere near as popular.

    That’s certainly true. But at this point, we can’t go back in time and get a younger Craig Charles. You either have to recast and find a younger Lister, or get Craig Charles back in and adapt the character and go with the original concept.

    And I’d prefer the latter.

    #123966
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    I totally agree about the character needing to be adapted slightly, but does this necessarily have to link back to the ‘original’ Lister concept?

    Sure Lister/Craig is now of comparable age to that original concept but just because the ages match doesn’t mean the personality of our 40-something Lister need too. As dicussed elsewhere an original show concept was ‘Dark Star on Tv’ whereas what the show developed into was a much faster moving show full of colour and action. So I believe a forty-something version of ‘our lister’, could and should be very different to the original description.

    #123967
    John Hoare
    Participant

    Oh, undoubtedly. I suppose when I say original concept, I really mean nothing more than a “40-something Lister”, rather than a “young cool black guy in his mid-20s” – nothing more specific than that. The character certainly wouldn’t have the be exactly the same as in the pilot script – just that you *could* adapt to fit Craig’s age.

    #123968
    Andrew
    Participant

    > > Ideal you?ll know that Johnny Vegas would have made a decent Lister

    > *Cough*BOLLOCKS*cough

    Why is that bollocks? He said ‘would have made’ not ‘would now make’ – he’s not suggesting Vegas would be Ideal (ahem) recasting at this point. Just concurring that Vegas is in line with the original intention, before the show was reshaped. Which he bloody is.

    Also, do you not have faith in Rob and Doug’s ability to make that original concept work? Sure it’s a different show, but they were an adaptable team – as the final show proves. On paper Series I is, stucturally and stylisically, miles away from what followed. Cast differently, though, it could have gone on that way…

    #123970
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    It’s just a personal thing he said Vegas in Ideal was proof he’d make a decent Lister. I rejected that based on the fact I find Vegas pretty unlikeable and especially so in Ideal. So a personal thing but the *Cough* was more specific to the Ideal comment. I can understand the reasons you and PM believe Vegas would have been (excuse the pun) Ideal but essentially I’d want a likeable character and I can’t agree based on the fact I don’t find him very likeable!

    As for doubting Rob and Doug’s abilily? Erm sorry is that a burnable offence? Rob and Doug gave me my favourite TV show ever. They also served up the 10%ers, which to me is a reflection that they don’t always have the midas touch. Infact you could add to that Series 8, Dark Ages and The Strangerers.

    However, I never actually dismissed that they could have made the original concept work (and just for the record – I do believe). What I actually said was we have no way of knowing. It would be easy for those of us who are familiar with the original concept to accept a story close to the original concept when we sit when we sit down in our cinema seats prepared to ‘reboot’, but for the casual fewer I’d assume they have certain preset ideas about what RD should be.

    #123973

    We could make Craig Charles look mid 20’s again, just give him a bit of crack and he’ll perk right up.

    #123974
    Andrew
    Participant

    > hey also served up the 10%ers… Series 8, Dark Ages and The Strangerers.

    Um – none of which they wrote together. (And, also, 10%ers is bloody excellent; the first series especially so.)

    But also, given the constant support series one gets for being ‘just as excellent as series II-VI’, despite being a very different animal, it would have surprised me if it was being suggested that more episodes in the series one style would have been a disaster. I wasn’t speaking all their work, just their work on Red Dwarf.

    > It would be easy for those of us who are familiar with the original concept to accept a story close to the original concept when we sit when we sit down in our cinema seats prepared to ?reboot?, but for the casual fewer I?d assume they have certain preset ideas about what RD should be.

    Well sure, but who’s suggesting the entire thing be reconceptualised? All we’re talking about is a version of Lister at the original intended character age, integrating that into the character developed over the eight series, a character definitiveely written FOR Craig Charles; nobdoy’s suggesting a total return to a character Craig couldn’t have played anyway.

    #123977
    Paul Muller
    Participant

    Hmyes. But it’s all sort of hypothetical anyway isn’t it, because we’ve heard nothing about any possible future Red Dwarf screen outing. I’m not having a moan, because GNP have really excelled themselves with the DVDs and as fans, we’ve been pretty spoilt. But it does make me wince when a series like Hyperdrive (which is basically RD with all the wit, fun and charm sucked out of it), gets recommissioned and Red Dwarf doesn’t even get considered. Surely the Radio Times poll suggests that the general public would love another series or a TV special, not just fanboy/girl saps like us. The demand is there, the BBC should have a think about it.

    #123978
    Phil
    Participant

    >The demand is there, the BBC should have a think about it.

    Abso-bloody-exactly. Maybe Andrew can shed light on how seriously the BBC would take a poll like that…?

    #123979
    Andrew
    Participant

    Hard to say. It can’t hurt. :-)

    #123980
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    >> they also served up the 10%ers? Series 8, Dark Ages and The Strangerers.
    > Um – none of which they wrote together. (And, also, 10%ers is bloody excellent; the first series especially so.)

    Well we’ll have to agree to differ on the 10%ers. I thought the pilot was a joint effort though?

    To clarify I’m actually in agreement about Grant Naylor’s abilities. I just took the “do you not have faith in Rob and Doug?s ability” remark to sound a little like “How dare you question the two great ones!” and then the list was simply highlighting that neither’s CV was exactly free of imperfections.

    > But also, given the constant support series one gets for being ?just as excellent as series II-VI?, despite being a very different animal, it would have surprised me if it was being suggested that more episodes in the series one style would have been a disaster.

    Agreed. The problem is it’s hypothetical, the show could have stuck to that original concept and been a massive success. Equally it could have run it’s course after two series, ran out of ideas and ended up the Sci-Fi equivilant of Fawlty Towers.

    > Well sure, but who?s suggesting the entire thing be reconceptualised? All we?re talking about is a version of Lister at the original intended character age, integrating that into the character developed over the eight series, a character definitiveely written FOR Craig Charles; nobdoy?s suggesting a total return to a character Craig couldn?t have played anyway.

    I think we’ve experienced this part of the conversation before (well we haven’t really I just love saying that). Nope I’m in agreement again. Simply responding with counterpoints to various bits and pieces raised above.

    So when are we getting this movie anyway?

    #123981
    Andrew
    Participant

    > Well we?ll have to agree to differ on the 10%ers. I thought the pilot was a joint effort though?

    Oh yeah, the pilot was. And, technically, the rewrite of it at the end of series one.

    Anyway, no, feel free to question the great ones – just not their 1988 co-writing incarnation in relation to Red Dwarf. :-)

    #123982
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    Wouldn’t dream of it ;-)

    #123984
    pfm
    Participant

    The main difference with series 1 is the production and the fact that no-one really knew the characters or show format by then (by ‘no-one’ I mean audience, cast AND writers) although as the production went on you can tell things slotted into place, Future Echoes being a prime example (despite it being episode 2 it was shot later in the production, was it not? and it’s balance of humour and sci-fi is pretty much bang on). And this surely must explain why a lot of The End was of a much better quality than Balance Of Power and Waiting For God, considering what we know about the reshoots.

    By the way, I only mentioned Ideal because it’s Vegas slobbing around his flat, probably how Lister would have been if he’d not been on the Dwarf. As for him being unlikeable, surely Lister COULD have been downright unlikeable. The cheekiness that Craig brings to it makes you side with Lister in the first series against the stuck-up Rimmer, but if it had been done wrong he could have been plain annoying, and then you’ve got two annoying characters, an annoying ship’s computer, a crazy Cat man that often only feels like a bit-player. Craig’s Lister playing off Chris’s Rimmer is the main thing that kept the show together in the first series. A 40-odd-year-old slob at that point would have been shit. Now Craig will HAVE to be a 40-odd-year-old slob if the movie happens!

    #123985
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    I only just got the ‘Ideal’ pun to the other day when Ian had the same revelation. Does this make me stupid?

    #123987
    Phil
    Participant

    >Craig?s Lister playing off Chris?s Rimmer is the main thing that kept the show together in the first series.

    This is very much absolutely 2,000% true. Age is an issue, superficially, but no matter what you’re willing or not willing to accept physically from your actors will be immaterial if the Lister/Rimmer dynamic is anywhere near as strong as it was in peak series.

    #123988
    pfm
    Participant

    > Does this make me stupid?

    Very.

    #220906
    Hamish
    Participant

    This thread definitely reads a bit differently ten years on doesn’t it?

    Especially with today’s announcement.

    #220923
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    We watched all three parts of “Back in the Red” – two last night, one this morning. They liked the Blue Midget dance.

    #220924
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    Shit, wrong thread. Bloody Chrome tabs.

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