'Jump The Shark' – Guardian article

[Dave]

Part of a long-running series of articles on when good TV shows go bad. This week it’s Red Dwarf’s turn.

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/sep/18/when-good-tv-goes-bad-red-dwarf

Readers may recognise some of the received wisdom about the show, both in the article and the comments…

Topic

[Phil]

“The main thing that gets me is that it’s 2017 and people are still using “jump the shark” as if it’s a phrase that has any meaning or relevance.”

The fact that they refer to Holly as omnipotent reveals to me that they have no interest in meaning.

[International Debris]

“Have you got a pen” is still a good line though.

Yes, it’s a strange mixture of genuine discomfort and humour as it’s actually a very well constructed joke in its own right, just the repercussions of it are really quite nasty.

[Dax101]

The side ways trip over the boxes into the airlock was pretty ridiculous.

[Ben Saunders]

Charles Augins’ choreography is sorely missed.

There was something else slapsticky in an episode I watched recently where I thought “I appreciate the joke, but they could have done a retake or something because that fall (or whatever) was incredibly unconvincing”

[pfm]

It would only have taken a couple of extra lines to remove the irksome feeling surrounding Irene’s death. If she was causing some kind of danger to the crew, no-one would care that she gets flushed out into space.

Like with Pree, it doesn’t feel wrong that she’s been shut down because she’s been…somewhat threatening to Lister and the others and also the fact she’s a computer and has a computer-like personality. She’s sold to us as a villain. If she had basically been a new female Holly, likeable and done nothing but mildly annoy Lister and he then told her to shut herself down, or he accidentally fires her mainframe off into space… then you’ve got a similar issue.

[Me Own Stunts]

There’s also the fact that Irene is the first real human they’ve come into contact with for ages. Even taking into account the shamelessly unfiltered guff that was Series 8, encountering real human beings is rare and this should be an ethical crew that cares about other humans. Instead we see Rimmer doing his “ah Bisto” face when his own brother dies, and Lister and Rimmer both deciding to not even try rescuing Irene when she’s sucked out of an airlock.

I’d like to think Lister would quickly put on a spacesuit and do his best to save Irene, not give up the second the airlock door reseals. Would he give up just as quickly if it had been Kochanski? No, of course not. So he shouldn’t have done it here.

[Ian Symes]

With the caveat that I’ve only had time to skim it so far, this article on Den of Geek seems to represent the correct way to go about this subject matter:

Red Dwarf: looking back at the past and ahead to the future

[Dave]

Interestingly it says much the same things overall, but comes to the opposite conclusion at the end. And the tone is much friendlier.

I expect people will like it a lot more.

[Ian Symes]

That’s the thing. The Guardian piece skimmed over the Dave era because it didn’t quite fit with the conclusion they wanted to reach – the Den of Geek piece takes this into account and adjusts the conclusion accordingly. That makes a huge difference.

[International Debris]

Mm, that article is much more well thought through and balanced. The writer has no problems with going into length about the problems of the Dave era, but is doing so because those poor bits are surrounded by the show proving it can still do great things. Also, an in-depth discussion of the recent series feels a lot more relevant than focusing solely on VII and VIII again. Leave that kind of bickering to people like us, and get publications like The Guardian writing informed, up-to-date stuff.

[Dave]

That’s the thing. The Guardian piece skimmed over the Dave era because it didn’t quite fit with the conclusion they wanted to reach – the Den of Geek piece takes this into account and adjusts the conclusion accordingly. That makes a huge difference.

I agree entirely.

I don’t know if the Guardian piece was truncated because it had to fit a wordcount for the physical copy of the paper, but it felt a bit half-arsed and I think they did the Dave era a real disservice by giving it a cursory mention but not really discussing it in any detail.

Because I think it would reshape the piece considerably if it did, and make the argument that they should end the show look a bit silly – if it hit its low point a long time ago (with VIII and BTE) and then started to improve again, why would you cancel something that’s starting to get better and better again?

[clem]

> There’s also the fact that Irene is the first real human they’ve come into contact with for ages.

See, I always think she shouldn’t be human, because the whole literally-always-being-wrong thing is so lame. If she was a robot or a computer the idea would be easier to swallow, and her death and the blasé attitude to it wouldn’t be as problematic. Rimmer wanting to shag her might be, though.

[Hamish]

> If she was a robot or a computer the idea would be easier to swallow, and her death and the blasé attitude to it wouldn’t be as problematic. Rimmer wanting to shag her might be, though.

“She didn’t think men were better than machines.” ;-)

[Ben Saunders]

>I’d like to think Lister would quickly put on a spacesuit and do his best to save Irene, not give up the second the airlock door reseals.

Wouldn’t do much good mate, you’ve got about 15 seconds before death if you’re out in space without a suit. She was a goner as soon as she tripped over the box.

[Ben Saunders]

Nothing wrong with shagging a computer.

If it’s cute why not.

[Lily]

The Den of Geek article is certainly a good one to read for the people who haven’t really caught on that there’s a new Dave era.

It’s a fair review of BtE, X and XI, the general feeling that although there’s a few hit and misses, overall Dave Dwarf is an improvement on the low of VIII.

[Seb Patrick]

The DoG one is a nice piece (hey, it’s almost as if DoG is a well-run site with good editors) but there’s that received wisdom about BtE again. I just don’t see how anyone could see the Corrie stuff as “excruciating”.

[Ben Saunders]

To be honest, I can understand people hating the Corrie stuff – it’s meta, it’s self-referential, it is literally only in there because of budget, etc – but I thought it was quite well done, and don’t have a problem with it myself. Some people just don’t like meta stuff.

[Lily]

Whelp, I’m one of them. I started wondering what the hell I was watching when they were fucking about in a John Lewis and was ready to turn off when they got to the Corrie set. Excruciating nails it, as far as I’m concerned.

[clem]

> Nothing wrong with shagging a computer.
If it’s cute why not.

Because it could rip your dick off and fax it to Canada! D’you know what I mean?

I really like the Corrie stuff in BtE, especially Craig’s priory line and the other three trying to be northern in the Kabin.

[Ben Saunders]

Oh, the northern stuff is worthy of a giggle or two surely. Just the way Barrie says “qualiteh”

[NoFro]

Everytime I’ve revisited BTE I’ve been surprised by how much I’ve enjoyed it and how many moments I’ve forgotten about that I really like. It’s certainly not perfect but thinking about it I don’t really have any problems that majorly detract from my enjoyment of it. Father’s and Suns may have by far the best scene in Dave Dwarf but it also has Taiwan Tony so I have a rougher time revisiting it than I do BTE, for example. I was absolutely dreading the Corrie section when part 2 ended in April 2009 but ended up laughing quite a lot over that ten minutes the following night.

Also, with the previous series being series VIII it was such a relief to have character based jokes again.

Also also, the Kryten mask was ace.

[pfm]

Yeah the constant slating of BtE pisses me off no end.

– Sophie Winkleman, fucking brilliant
– Some of the best effects the show has ever seen (especially the epic cargo bay)
– Craig’s finest hour?
– Carbug
– the Corrie stuff, which IS good IMO
– Noddy and that whole shop scene
– Chloe’s appearance
– Richard O’Callaghan as the Creator, again it’s nothing but great stuff
– The scene with the kids on the bus, is genius
– The last scene with Craig and Chloe makes me wanna cry, every single time…
– The chase and glass stunt!! I mean, come on.

There’s shitloads to like about BtE and I genuinely would have loved the show to have carried on in this vein. It WAS the right decision to switch it up for X; but still….

[NoFro]

Yeah Sophie Winkleman was damn great. I can understand people not liking it but I struggle when people say it’s worse than VIII. I’ve watched both with casuals and BTE got a far better response.

[clem]

I love Rimmer wondering how he’s neurotic and hilarious, and Kryten very baldly telling him. Shame there’s not more of that sort of meta stuff, instead of the Blade Runner references and the creator (although I agree Richard O’Callaghan’s performance is good.)

[Phil]

I hated BTE but enjoyed the Corrie bit, so I’m wrong on all counts.

[MANI506]

‘Someone pummel my diodes’

[Dax101]

BTE has a story that would suit a comic relief sketch much better then a filmic attempt to be played seriously.

It’s full of call backs that just feel tired.

It’s not particularly funny either.

The effects are impressive and as good as the window crashing scene is I dunno the hell was it even there for? Just to be a blade runner homage?

By the end the plot doesn’t make much sense, it was just a filmic romp that is concluded by a throw back that didn’t even make much sense as a result.

[Ridley]

The story is about a directionless Lister finding something to live for, those famine bits aren’t the sketches!

Also Blade Runner.

[Seb Patrick]

>The story is about a directionless Lister finding something to live for

FUCKIN’ THIS. It’s one of the most thematically rich stories the series has ever done.

[Pete Part Three]

>The story is about a directionless Lister finding something to live for

What was that? Finding Kochanski? Er….

>Also Blade Runner.
And don’t forget Blade Runner. Plus Blade Runner. By the way, have you see Blade Runner?

Would be good if Back to Earth actually had the balls to do something interesting. I don’t actually mind the Corrie stuff, because that’s the closest it gets to doing something *properly* meta. Mentioning Craig’s rehab (or whatever the line is) is about as daring as the story gets (aside from Rimmer murdering people).

Doug, in interviews, comes across as a remarkably candid. If this had been extended to the story; and actually deconstructed Red Dwarf, its fandom, its faults, and the BTS stuff…this would have at least been interesting. Mention Rob Grant, mention the fact that Rimmer disappeared for 4 episodes, mention the fact that the show has been pushed to another channel because the previous one doesn’t want it. This would allow it to be much more focused on, y’know, Red Dwarf rather than a movie that has no relation to it.

[It’sMarilynMonroe!]

That whole ‘Jump the shark’ series seems to be just pure clickbait. Name a show that is widely regarded to be good and/or popular, write up something in 15 mins about how it’s not good and/or popular, give it a title, then reel them in. Like others have said, there’s not much to actually disagree with, it’s the last paragraph which comes across as just bitter.

The dig at Chris’s hairline is needless and stupid, regardless of whether Chris has joked about it himself. And I’m surprised that a liberal paper like the Gaurdian [sic] is now a fan of “imperial phases”.

The DoG article is *much* better. Analysing what went wrong with VII/VIII has been done to death anyway, so an article focussing more on the Dave era is more interesting anyway.

I don’t hate BTE, actually I do kinda like it, but that may partly be because I like meta, the first time I saw it was as the single director’s cut so I don’t even really think of it as three eps, and I hadn’t seen Blade Runner yet. Now that I have seen Blade Runner and know how much was borrowed from it, I can see why it rubbed people the wrong way.

Actually, I think the first time I watched BTE the only way I got thru it was by pretending that it was some sort of tribute to Red Dwarf rather than an actual ep, but I enjoyed more on rewatching. It’s better when you know that it’s all happening inside their heads. A consider a lot of it, such as the Corrie stuff, as having the *potential* to be excruciating, and I remember cringing at various points expecting what was coming next was going to be awful, but actually turned out better than I would’ve thought it would and won me over.

[Seb Patrick]

And I’m surprised that a liberal paper like the Gaurdian [sic] is now a fan of “imperial phases”

Ehhhhh that’s not actually anything to do with political empires. It’s a phrase used in pop culture discussion to denote that point at which an artist can basically do no wrong – it originated with the Pet Shop Boys, and refers to the period roughly between 1986-88.

http://petshopboys.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_phase

Which artist will get everything right in 2015?

A proliferation of pop writers who themselves had roots in PSBs fandom led to it gaining wider currency. It’s a particular favourite of Kieron Gillen, and the title of the current Wicked + Divine storyline.

[Ridley]

>don’t forget Blade Runner

A replicant? Lister’s a replican.

[International Debris]

I find BtE to be an incredibly mixed bag. I think most of the Corrie stuff is actually really funny (which surprised me as I was dreading it), and the Blade Runner stuff all looks and feels beautiful and epic in a way the show hadn’t done before. But I just can’t get it to ‘fit’ with the rest of the show. Although it closes the fourth wall and ties it all together again at the end, it still FEELS like – if not quite a Comic Relief special – a one-off novelty story rather than a logical continuation of Red Dwarf.

One thing that I find jarring – I’m not sure if this would necessarily make any difference to it feeling more Dwarfish as much as it’s just something else that bugs me about it – is the bizarre mix of real and fictional in the reality they visit. Whilst I love the idea that their hallucinatory world now exists as an alternate dimension, I think that would have far, far more weight if it was actually OUR world they visited. Instead, it’s mostly like our world, but with a bunch of Blade Runner stuff stuck in there too. I think it would have felt more comfortable if they’d either been in the real world, or if it was a full-on sci-fi alternate dimension.

On the other hand, when watched straight after VIII, it’s such a breath of fresh air, and the opening segment in particular feels properly Red Dwarf in a way it hadn’t done since VI (maybe even V). I kind of wish Doug had done something less ambitious but, in its own way, a lot more daring, and done a talky episode set on the ship. It might not have had the visual impact that may have seemed necessary for a special, but I reckon it would have pleased the wider fanbase and critics a lot more. Even if it wasn’t brilliant, a ‘return to its roots’ story would have immediately been seen as a good thing, I think.

There are bits like the shop scene and ‘a sitcom in a biscuit factory’ which are hilarious. Equally, you’ve got VIII-style nonsense like Kryten thinking a postbox is an android (unfunny and went on for far too long), and stuff like the typewriter scene which starts funny, but goes VIII-wards in being overplayed. The despair squid callback seemed like a cheap conclusion to me at the time, although in context of X and XI it no longer feels quite so odd. And Doug’s commentary on the DVD was wonderful, as everything he was saying felt like he’d really got back in touch with what made the show so great in the first place, and it made me feel really positive about any future series.

So yeah, overall it’s a mix of very successful stuff and rather unsuccessful stuff. I’m glad it happened as it allowed Doug to rediscover the characters and the setting – after losing touch with them in VII and particularly VIII – and led to the commissioning of (at least) three more series. At the same time, much like VIII, it just feels a touch too far removed from everything either side of it to comfortably feel like part of the same story.

[Dave]

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/sep/21/larry-david-lisa-simpson-life-lessons-from-tv-top-role-models

Scroll about halfway down for the Red Dwarf-relevant part.

[Pete Part Three]

Do you remember when he called that woman a slag, though?

[Ben Paddon]

Would be good if Back to Earth actually had the balls to do something interesting.

I’m just going to ahead and say this – the jokes don’t always land, but the character moments are strong and the overall story is rich. BtE is probably one of my personal favorite Red Dwarf stories.

[Lilly Queen]

Count me in as another lover of Back to Earth. Completely agree with all of performingmonkey’s points. And just in terms of pure comedy, the Corrie segment is far and away the funniest material. Such a shame the jammy dodger scene wasn’t reinstated for the director’s cut as it probably has the best big laugh in the whole thing.

[(deleted)]

Back To Earth is the ‘To Hull And Back’ of Red Dwarf. Completely different to the main show and probably not a good template for the ‘regular’ series, but what a thrill it exists to enjoy.

Saying all that I could have happily watched a follow-on Red Dwarf series which was filmic, audience-less and much more drama-orientated, too (I still think XI would work arguably better with no audience and more ambitious camera setups). Just as I’d have enjoyed a whole Only Fools series in that Minder style. I’m more easily pleased than I sometimes make out when I’m being pernickety.

[clem]

> I think that would have far, far more weight if it was actually OUR world they visited.

It’s not the only reason I don’t really like the Blade Runner stuff, but yes, that would have been so much better. I think maybe it could have worked especially well if up to the point at which they enter “our dimension”, the show had been much more sitcom looking, even had an audience, and then when they get to Earth it goes a bit handheld and more real world. (Even as I’m typing this I’m wondering whether that actually was attempted to an extent, but it’s a while since I’ve seen it. Most of the Earth stuff was filmed on location of course, but that was out of necessity.) I know The League of Gentlemen did something similar in their film, which iirc a few people said BtE ripped off because of the characters in search of their creators idea, as if that had never been done before.

[Ben Saunders]

Just re-watched Camille. Wonder if people who are upset about BtE being a Bladerunner homage are also upset about Camille being a beat-for-beat remake of Cassablanca at points.

I didn’t like Noddy, but Kryten’s mask did look fantastic – why haven’t they been able to just do it that well again?!

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

@Ben – I quite like BTE but I think there are differences between BTE and Camille, or even DNA which riffs on a lot of different movie ideas.

it’s the setting and the way it is parodied. i.e. Camille parodies Casablanca but with Red Dwarf’s setting. And it riffs on many love storylines that have excited prior to and after Casablanca in different forms.

BTE feels much more like a homage and re-make of sorts of Blade Runner than a straight up parody. It removes the crew from their ship, puts them in a completely different world, and then just lifts the Blade Runner story (which I feel is more unique than Casablanca) and tells it with its own characters.

Not to mention BTE feels like it is played more for drama than comedy, where as Camille could almost be said to be gently mocking Casablanca as every line, every situation is for comedic purposes.

That maybe why people view them differently, and are able to accept one over the other.

[bloodteller]

the stuff in Camille feels like it actually fits in with the rest of the show though imo. i’m never sat there thinking “well why is this in an episode of red dwarf?” BtE on the other hand, sticks out like a sore thumb because some of the stuff in it doesn’t feel like something i’d ever be seeing in Red Dwarf, e.g. the coronation street scenes.

carbug can fuck off too, what’s that doing there? get rid of it

[Pete Part Three]

Camille works irrespective of you seeing Casablanca. It’s not recreating scenes for the sake of recreating them; it’s using them to tell a failed love story with a theme about “nobility”.

The scene with Swallow. The creator looking like Tyrell. The bizarre scene with Kochanski dressed as Rachel FOR NO FUCKING REASON. None of this is relevant to even the flimsy plot. It’s just shitty references for the sake of it. It’s a love letter to Blade Runner, without any effort to synchronize the plot to make it work.

Blade Runner is a stylistic, unique-looking movie. It doesn’t look like much else. When you try and reference it with costumes and characters, it’s not going to blend in. It’s going to draw attention to itself.

If they’d done an episode about human-looking droids (you know, like that 5 mins in Out of Time), the Blade Runner stuff could have worked, but still not to extremes of BTE.

>Back To Earth is the ‘To Hull And Back’ of Red Dwarf.
I think it’s A Royal Flush. Specifically the looong scene at the opera, and the awful dinner scene with a drunk nasty Del, that even John Sullivan couldn’t stand.

[Seb Patrick]

The scene with Swallow. The creator looking like Tyrell. The bizarre scene with Kochanski dressed as Rachel FOR NO FUCKING REASON. None of this is relevant to even the flimsy plot. It’s just shitty references for the sake of it.

But are any of those scenes ruined if you don’t know why they look the way they do? Does anything that happens rely on your existing knowledge of Blade Runner?

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Seb – partly yes. If you don’t know the references, you’re missing out. More so than with Casablanca / Camille I think.

You don’t need to have seen Casablanca to find Camille funny, it stands on its own merits, BTE does kind of rather require some knowledge of Blade Runner … especially the Kochanski bit, but plenty of other references to. Part of the enjoyment of BTE I’m sure is joining in with the little in jokes and getting giddy/excited etc for being able to pick them out. If nothing else then just understanding them and why they are important or exist at all.

I’ve only seen Blade Runner twice (actually don’t hold it in such a high regard as others do) so I’m only somewhat vaguely aware of what is being referenced.

I can never remember what Kochanski’s counter parts role is. I just know its a reference to a character in Blade Runner. I don’t really know why she looks the way she does or why she is important other than Lister lusts after her.

Same with Cat’s little squid models. I’m aware this is a Blade Runner reference, and I somewhat remember Almos’ character (doing something similar) – but I don’t understand why, what the connection is or the relevence. I’m sure if I did then Cat making them and leaving them everywhere would make more sense.

Not really knowing Blade Runner that well … but knowing BTE is heavily influenced by it gives me this feeling of missing out that I don’t get with Camille because the episodes stands on its own a lot better. In fact the only direct reference I’m aware of and get in Camille is the “always have Paris/Parrots” line, and thats partly because its somewhat within the public consciousness as a pop culture reference.

But, having said all that, I still enjoy BTE, for it’s exploration of character and for what it does for the show. I just don’t share in the in jokes because I don’t know Blade Runner well enough.

[International Debris]

There are plenty of film references and semi-homages throughout Red Dwarf (Kryten being another episode), but as stated, they aren’t so heavy that the episode is confusing without them. I’ve never seen Casablanca, but what I know of it makes it seem like very much an archetype of a certain kind of romantic film that I definitely recognise in the structure of Camille, and the “maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow” speech is so widely quoted that it’s undoubtedly familiar to a lot more people than have seen the film.

BtE is so heavy in its Blade Runner references that it’s hard to see it as anything else, however. It doesn’t feel like an episode of Red Dwarf that’s loosely following the beats of a film, it hammers you over the head with Blade Runner stuff. I didn’t get that Kochanski was meant to be Rachel at first, and the plot of part 3 in particular only made sense to me because it brought back memories of the film when I watched it. Without that knowledge, I’d be a bit baffled as to why the Swallow scene was really necessary, or what the origami squid was all about, and probably other stuff.

The street chase, the whole ‘zoom in, enhance’ etc. bit, the whole look of Tyrell’s room, alone they’d probably be enough because they’d still give it a heavily Blade Runner feel, and crucially it’d feel like that homage was still serving the plot, rather than the other way around.

At least it’s all done well, though, even if I don’t think it fits. The look and atmosphere of all the Blade Runner stuff is fantastic, so they can’t be faulted on execution. Unlike, say, the Alien parody in whichever VIII episode has Archie.

[Ridley]

Contrary to popular belief, the Coronation Street sequence is actually a nod to the scene with Deckard and the sheep from the Emmerdale set. #dwarffacts

[Dax101]

The Rovers stuff is kinda fun but the scene in the shop with the accent joke and silly talk is horrible.

I think Doug just wrote it in there because he wanted to make the most of having the corrie set but it’s already fairly dated now.

[Author]

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