Mundane observation dome

[Warbodog]

Do you have any miscellaneous insights on the series that may be worth contemplating for a few seconds before moving on with our lives? Here are some of mine.

1. The four regulars have names that can work any way around, though this would have been more obvious if David Ross had stayed and wouldn’t work if Chris Barrie used his real name.

2. The series’ lax attitude to continuity extends to the setting. Outside of Holly’s distress calls, I don’t think three million years is mentioned all that much after series I and before VI (not sure about later years). Instead, we get the extremely fudged “dead for centuries” and “travelling for thousands of years” – not actual retcons, but suggesting a more conventional setting for casual viewers tuning in and the sort of stories they’re telling. It’s only millions when they need it to be.

3. 200 years of stasis between series V and VI means that the earlier series took place in their equivalent of the early 19th century by comparison (e.g. Blackadder the Third). Since they didn’t run into a long-lived Camille or one of her great-great-etc grandchildren, it didn’t come up.

4. Although Lister is routinely slagged off in the series, he’s spared the level of seemingly authoritative character assassination that Rimmer gets, because the audience is aligned with Lister’s viewpoint most of the time. For example, we see Kochanski Camille belittling Rimmer’s interests, but we don’t get the equivalent of Hologram Camille reacting to Lister’s pickup lines, we’re left to form our own opinions on those. This flimsy point has not been considered much beyond this single example.

5. Cat’s costumes are overwhelmingly referenced more than anyone else’s in the series, but the least discussed by fans.

6. Ace Rimmer and Duane Dibbley were so seemingly ubiquitous in canon and tie-in merchandise through the 90s (Smegazine strips, T-shirts) that they still feel overused today, even though it’s been over 20 years since they appeared. Maybe they’re allowed back after all.

7. Only series III & V and maybe XI & XII (not as familiar with those) don’t have any sense of an arc whatsoever (though IV’s minor Kryten disobedience arc was already fucked up by episode shuffling). Series III is just about the only series where no episode directly references any previous episode, but it still has the Backwards scrolling text and general references to Rimmer having died and stuff.

8. One of the series’ most famous and quoted scenes – everybody’s dead, Dave – is a straight-up 2001: A Space Odyssey homage and would have been received that way at the time, but doesn’t work like that for most people coming to the episode later on or new viewers who are young or don’t watch old films.

9. Sometimes dismissed as lightweight and gimmicky today, Backwards was designed as an innovative interactive experience to reward extracurricular effort. As well as inviting fans to work out the backwards events and filming logistics, Arthur Smith’s eugolonom is teasingly long and “you scoundrels” is clearly a cleaned-up translation gag even before you’ve heard it. Unfortunately, by the time technology caught up with the intent and the ability to reverse media files properly on home computers became commonplace, Backwards Forwards came out and everyone just cheated with the walkthrough.

Imagine the quality of the musings I left out!

Topic

[Nick R]

Also Rimmer and Rincewind’s names both begin with “Ri”!

But I’d quibble about the phrasing of this bit:

both have a menial job in the place where they want to be higher ranking/heroic (ship and Wizard University)

Do either of them really want to be heroic? Rincewind just wants a quiet life, and only does heroic things when he’s forced into it (usually because running away isn’t an option).

Rimmer wants the things that come from heroism (or from being seen as heroic), like when he thinks that rescuing the Nova 5 crew will bring three women on board. But otherwise, he’ll only do heroic actions when he’s forced to, and has few qualms about abandoning his crew mates (e.g. fleeing into the escape pod in Rimmerworld). He doesn’t seem very interested in wanting to become less of a coward. Even when he goes off to take over from Ace, it’s less about any desire to travel between dimensions saving people, and more because Lister asks “Are you really gonna be the one to break the chain?”

[Rudolph]

If we’re talking Discworld, I still think Mackenzie Crook would be a brilliant choice for Rincewind, these days.

[Flap Jack]

Funnily enough I’ve been reading the Discworld books for the first time recently, and I’m only up to Sourcery so I’m sure I’m missing a lot of context when it comes to Rincewind, but I feel like in practice he’s almost the opposite of Rimmer. While Rimmer and Rincewind are both cowards and they’re both perpetually stuck at entry level skill in their respective fields, Rimmer is defined by his desire to be something he isn’t suited to be – an officer in the Space Corps – and to live up to others’ expectations of him. Rincewind on the other hand isn’t ambitious or overly concerned with what people think of him, he’s more like Lister in that way. But despite his lack of ambition or skill, his wizardry is a core part of who he is, it means everything to him, despite the fact that he rarely casts spells and he gets nothing but danger out of it. It’s maybe more analogous to Lister being a musician.

It’s an interesting contrast though. Rimmer defines himself by what he isn’t and Rincewind defines himself by what he is. Perhaps Rimmer should wear a pointy hat that says “HOLLOGRAM” on it.

[Technopeasant]

Going back to that interview, it raises the question about what Back to Earth should have been titled, because it really isn’t about them going back to Earth. Even before the almost immediate reveal they are fictional, it’s no more Earth to them then the half dozen other times previously. I suppose it kind of refers to the show itself being back though.

[Moonlight]

We’ll confront Ed Bye about it at the next DJ.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Going back to that interview, it raises the question about what Back to Earth should have been titled, because it really isn’t about them going back to Earth. Even before the almost immediate reveal they are fictional, it’s no more Earth to them then the half dozen other times previously. I suppose it kind of refers to the show itself being back though.

It was all about the marketing more than anything else. 

Also, Back to Reality isn’t really about them coming out of a game. 

[Dave]

Also, Back In The Red isn’t about them going into debt.

[Flap Jack]

And The End is actually at the beginning, Meltdown isn’t about a nuclear disaster, Demons & Angels isn’t about beings from Hell and Heaven, Gunmen of the Apocalypse isn’t about the end of the world, Stoke Me a Clipper isn’t about clippers being stoked, Fathers & Suns isn’t about suns, The Beginning isn’t the beginning, The Promised Land isn’t about Fuchal.

But I do get what you mean. They’ve been “back to Earth” in the sense of going to an alternate dimension or temporarily back in time so many times, if you’re going to title your miniseries “Back to Earth” it ought to actually be the real deal of them completing their show long quest to find Earth as it is currently, or to go back to their original lives 3 million years ago. I do remember being disappointed that it had nothing to do with that.

So it should have been called “Meta Than Life”, or “Out of the Red”, or “Seeing The Red Dwarf Boys Out of Their Element in a Contemporary Department Store is Fun, Right?”.

[Warbodog]

It was all about the marketing more than anything else.

Making it a talking point also shifts the focus from “we can’t afford to do it in space.”

[Flap Jack]

What if Me² wasn’t called that because there’s 2 Rimmers, but because it’s about the power one has over themselves?

[tombow]

The Dwarfers finding themselves back on a populated Earth, living there for a few years becoming celebs/finding peace/whatever, and then ending up back on RD in the future would be interesting. I know “Lost” did that one season. 

[Technopeasant]

Fathers & Suns isn’t about suns

I’ll grant you the plural, but a sun is very much involved.

So it should have been called “Meta Than Life”, or “Out of the Red”, or “Seeing The Red Dwarf Boys Out of Their Element in a Contemporary Department Store is Fun, Right?”.

Blade Runner 2009

[Flap Jack]

I’ll grant you the plural, but a sun is very much involved.

Yeah, I was just going off the fact that it was only one involved. Although, if it’s not the Sun, is it a sun or is it just a star?

Technically it’s only about one father too, unless Taiwan Tony is a dad.

[Dave]

Well the episode is about a sun and a son, hence the plural and hence the pun.

I didn’t meant that to rhyme.

[Warbodog]

Technically it’s only about one father too, unless Taiwan Tony is a dad.

Denti-Bot is Medi-Bot’s son and the result of his tough love.

Rimmer’s a father in one of the novel continuities, so the title is probably referencing that.

[Flap Jack]

Well the episode is about a sun and a son, hence the plural and hence the pun.

So it should be called Father & Son & Sun.

[Ian Symes]

[Unrumble]

Something unrelated just put me in mind of the “frying pan-theist” joke from The Last Day, and had me wondering:

Kryten says “Surely you believe that God is in all things? Aren’t you a pantheist?” to which Lister responds “yeah”.

I’m sure someone will be quick to enlighten me, but I can’t recall any dialogue in previous episodes between Lister and Kryten (or anyone else), which explicitly reveals Lister’s religious viewpoint.

Religion is obviously one of the big themes in Waiting For God, but Lister doesn’t really express belief either way, he’s just bothered about the effect he’s had on the cat civilisation due to being ‘mis-quoted’, though he does acknowledge the Toaster’s “so what else is new?” re: people using religion as an excuse to be extremely crappy to each other, but that isn’t in itself necessarily an indicator of belief or lack of. His question to Rimmer of “do you believe in God?” is fairly ambiguous in tone, and again is more about trying to get a human response from him.

In TLD, Kryten’s question seems rhetorical. He’s questioning Lister’s assertion that Silicon Heaven isn’t real, because he knows him to be a pantheist, and therefore sees Lister as contradicting himself.

My point being that it seems like quite a big thing to casually drop in there as a trait of Lister’s that is known to the characters, without any prior indication to the audience (I’ll not get into the flexibility in the various definitions of pantheism, but broadly speaking, acknowledgement of God in some form is part of it). 

There’s a possibility I may have overthought this…

[Dave]

I suspect it was just to get the setup for “frying pantheist” in.

[Unrumble]

[Nick R]

[International Debris]

Rimmer’s a lot less sneery about religion in The Last Day than he was in Waiting for God as well. Not to mention his parents being part of two different barmy Christian sects.

[Warbodog]

Rimmer’s a lot less sneery about religion in The Last Day than he was in Waiting for God as well. Not to mention his parents being part of two different barmy Christian sects.

He also attends an (unexplained) church service in Timeslides, but he might just dig the tunes.

[Ben Saunders]

He also thinks it genuinely is Jesus in Lemons, but they all do don’t they. Both times.

[tombow]

I didn’t like Uni sounding like Morgan Freeman. I wish they’d used the Ricky Tomlinson type Northern accent that God had in the BTL audio book. I mean… I don’t hate the voice they used, I was just a little disappointed. 

[Ben Saunders]

It does feel a bit incongruously modern because Bruce Almighty is a more recent thing in popular culture than Red Dwarf, where if the episode had been made during the original run of the show they literally couldn’t have done it.

[Moonlight]

The “Morgan Freeman is God” thing was already a pretty played out meme in the years before that episode came out. I remember us making that joke in high school.

[RunawayTrain]

In TLD, Kryten’s question seems rhetorical. He’s questioning Lister’s assertion that Silicon Heaven isn’t real, because he knows him to be a pantheist, and therefore sees Lister as contradicting himself. 

Does pantheism believe in an afterlife for things?  Especially segregated afterlives, like Silicon Heaven implies vs a Human Heaven?  Otherwise I don’t understand how Lister being pantheist (which, admittedly I don’t know much about at all) would be contradicting the idea of not believing in a heaven for inorganic machines.

Unless I’ve misread/misunderstood your post, which is eminently possible right now.

[Technopeasant]

I’ll not get into the flexibility in the various definitions of pantheism, but broadly speaking, acknowledgement of God in some form is part of it.

Or all forms, rather.

Technically it’s only about one father too, unless Taiwan Tony is a dad.

Dave Lister Snr is Dave Lister Jnr’s dad, while Jnr is Jim and Bexley Lister’s dad. Obvious innit?

 I wish they’d used the
Ricky Tomlinson type Northern accent that God had in the BTL audio
book.

I guess it would depend on if Daniel Barker could do the voice…

[International Debris]

Isn’t it weird that when Lister gets pregnant with himself, he gives birth to two different people, but when he gets Kochanski pregnant, she gives birth to him. 

[Dave]

Isn’t it weird that when Lister gets pregnant with himself, he gives birth to two different people,

Well, they have different names but genetically presumably they’re identical to Lister. Enough so that when one of them ages to 25, Rimmer sees him in a future echo and believes it’s Lister.

[Flap Jack]

Yeah, the real weirdness is that all of Lister’s sons are clones of him regardless of who the mother is.

[Dave]

Yeah, the real weirdness is that all of Lister’s sons are clones of him regardless of who the mother is.

I refer you back to my somewhat tongue-in-cheek “Lister is Kochanski” theory.

[Unrumble]

Does pantheism believe in an afterlife for things?  Especially segregated afterlives, like Silicon Heaven implies vs a Human Heaven?  Otherwise I don’t understand how Lister being pantheist (which, admittedly I don’t know much about at all) would be contradicting the idea of not believing in a heaven for inorganic machines.

Unless I’ve misread/misunderstood your post, which is eminently possible right now.

My brain is starting to get tangled, I can’t claim to know a great deal about pantheism either, but I think my point is that Kryten believes they are both similar enough as concepts, that he feels Lister is contradicting himself by saying one can exist but not the other? 

Admittedly slightly undercut by his punchline that human heaven was made up to stop us all going nuts. But therein Rob and Doug are skewering one of the follies of religious belief (in my opinion): “God exists, but the specific framework I view it through is definitely the only correct one, all the other denominations and religions have it a bit wrong”.

[Flap Jack]

So assuming figures of speech don’t exist in the Red Dwarf universe, does he believe that humans go to Silicon Hell, or is he just addressing Kryten?

Again in the realm of literal figuratives, the implication is that the simulant rebellion against humanity didn’t rid them of their programmed religion, and they still believe they’ll be punished for their actions, but that humans/obedient mechanoids are sinful too.

[Ben Saunders]

“God exists, but the specific framework I view it through is definitely the only correct one, all the other denominations and religions have it a bit wrong”.

This is how everybody views everything.

[Dave]

This is how everybody views everything.

Unless you don’t believe in god.

[Unrumble]

“God exists, but the specific framework I view it through is definitely the only correct one, all the other denominations and religions have it a bit wrong”.

This is how everybody views everything.

There is a point there, that you can extrapolate this kind of thinking outside of religious belief, but I think religion more than most is the one where people are most insistent that their way is the right way, and not open to any reason. Of course, there are exceptions and outliers in any situation.

[RunawayTrain]

Unless you don’t believe in god.

Although that in itself could be said to fall under “(this) is definitely the only correct one view, all the other denominations and religions have it a bit wrong”  ;)

[Warbodog]

[Moonlight]

I only believe things that I think are wrong, to stick it to the Man.

[solidbronze]

So it should have been called “Meta Than Life”, or “Out of the Red”, or “Seeing The Red Dwarf Boys Out of Their Element in a Contemporary Department Store is Fun, Right?”.

It’s called Back to Earth because it’s a surprise sequel to Back to Reality, surely?

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

[Moonlight]

Speaking of Back to Earth, there is something about the Director’s Cut that has always baffled me. The discussion in the video store of it being a three-parter is removed, but later, when Craig Charles refers to “Back to Earth Part 3”, they don’t snip out the “Part 3.” This is a bizarre thing to leave in after so pointedly omitting the only other reference to it being a multi-part episode, and on top of that it would have been a braindead simple edit because we’re on a reverse shot of the Dwarfers while it’s being spoken.

I feel like the only reasonable explanation here is “they had limited time and money and it got overlooked.”

[Technopeasant]

I dunno, they still could have left it in to spite you.

[Moonlight]

Massive Red Dwarf lore bomb: in the year of our lord 2009, Doug Naylor refuses to finish editing the BtE Director’s Cut in order to personally spite a 13 year old American girl.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Massive Red Dwarf lore bomb: in the year of our lord 2009, Doug Naylor refuses to finish editing the BtE Director’s Cut in order to personally spite a 13 year old American girl.

Sounds about on Doug’s level

[Rudolph]

I’ve noticed how there’s a slight lack of consistency with the corridor outside the bunk room, that they frequently change between series.
Series I and II
And then III and IV

It also got me thinking, is Holoship the only time in V where we see the proper bunk room? We get the high and low equivalents in Demons & Angels, but I can’t think of any other examples.

[Moonlight]

It also got me thinking, is Holoship the only time in V where we see the proper bunk room?

Yes. Otherwise, it’s redressed in Demons & Angels and Quarantine.

[Dave]

This random moment from TPL showed up on the Smegadrive and it feels really odd, like Craig’s head is far too big for his body.

The Funko Pop version of Lister.

[Author]

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