Pete – Part 2: The Good Bits

[The Disillusionist]

There have to be some, right? I?m most interested in VIII critics? opinions here. So here?s the complete list of the five moments I enjoy, on the off chance of someone being interested:

One:

CAT: What?s the short version?
HOLLY: Bye.

Nothing amazing but anything following the Rimmer ?we?re finished!? moment is going to seem like pure comedy gold in comparison.

Two:
As much as I dislike the repetition of Hollister?s ?do you know what happens when a dinosaur [does x, y and z]?? I can?t help but enjoy Mac?s delivery on the final ?do ya know? Do ya know what happened?? It is good I like it.

Three & Four:
The He?s-Behind-You scene, although obviously clich?d, is well performed and includes some good jokes at the expense of Hollister?s weight, my favourite being the salad bar one. Also, Hollister?s exit in this scene. The way he goes to leave then turns back quickly, I just think is great for some reason. Don?t YOU?!

Five:

LISTER: We were ambushed, sir.
HOLLISTER: By whom?
LISTER: Well first of all by Kryten’s ?
RIMMER: MmmMMmm!
LISTER: – and then we were jumped by ?
RIMMER: ? MMMmMMmM!
LISTER: – sir.
HOLLISTER: That?s it?

Excellent. Ex. Dee. Best bit of the episode for me. Craig Charles and Chris Barrie then throw themselves around a bit, which is also quite amusing I suppose.

The rest is a write off. Special mention to Archie for being the least funny thing I ever sat through. But what does everyone think of these bits or anything I’ve missed? Tell me plzplz.

Topic

[Arlene Rimmer BSc SSc]

Possibly (and I’m acting as a sort of devil’s advocate here, since I don’t often see Series VIII eps) one of the problems detractors of VIII have is that arguably its only real “good bits”, as you’ve sort of pointed out, are individual gags–unlike earler series, where whole episodes were not only consistently funny but contained character exploration and mature, well-constructed sci-fi elements; they worked on several levels.

And yes, Mac Macdonald is just awfully damned good. Altho’ I will always remember him best for being possibly the only person in England who knows how to properly pronounce the place name Oregon, albeit I think he only knows how to do that because he’s a Yank (yes?) =P .

[Danny Stephenson]

What did happen on the Oregon with the rabbits?…

[Jonathan Capps]

It amuses me that you’re called The Disillusionist and posted this thread.

I do agree with Arlene on this one – VIII certainly has its decent jokes (and it’s a series that’s oft quoted round these part, surprisingly, although that can often be in an ironic way) it’s just that there’s seam of dismal shit running through the entire thing, and it makes it impossible for me to like.

[Seb Patrick]

Does “Follow the Rimmer-shaped blur!” count as a Pete Part Two gag or a Pete Part One gag? Doesn’t it appear in both? Either way, it’s the only bit that actually made me properly laugh in either episode. Oh, but I do quite like “what’s the short version?” as well, even though it meant we had to sit through all the “WE’RE FINISHED!” bollocks as setup to it.

[Seb Patrick]

>albeit I think he only knows how to do that because he?s a Yank (yes?)

I’m pretty sure he’s a Yank. Either that or he’s always playing them in stuff filmed in England (Aliens, Superman IV, that “don’t get run over” advert…)

[John Hoare]

I agree with every single one of those five good bits. Especially five, which I agree is absolutely the best bit of the episode. It’s stuff like this that means I generally prefer VIII to VII. You can usually find similar good bits in VIII eps, wheras it’s a *lot* harder in the majority of VII. (But not impossible. “Listen you stupid jumped up son of a…”)

I’ve always hated the Rimmer-shaped blur line, though, for some reason.

[Tarka Dal]

Out of those I actually like #5 the least. Cappsy has a great point though, both series 7 and 8 are much quoted and yet I class both series as inferior products. It’s something I’ve always tried to work out but never fully put my finger on. It’s like all the ingredients are right…

[Jonathan Capps]

I’m starting to appreciate series VII more and more these days. the thing I like about it is that it *is* different and it’s not nearly as funny as what came before it… but crucially, it feels like it’s succeeding in what it’s trying to do. Series VIII, form start to finish, feels like a failed attempt to recapture old glories.

VII is far more honest and far easier to accept, for me.

[John Hoare]

MUST… RESIST… URGE… TO… START… VII/VIII… ARGUMENT…

If anyone wants me, I’ll be taking a cold shower in liquid oxygen.

[Andrew]

> What did happen on the Oregon with the rabbits??

http://www.aitoday.co.uk

:-)

[Somebody]

So, basically, The Trouble With Tribbles with rabbits? :)

[Jonathan Capps]

> MUST? RESIST? URGE? TO? START? VII/VIII? ARGUMENT?

Actually, I’ve been thinking about all this a bit recently, and I think it’d make a great topic for a DwarfCast discussion forum. I think we have a decent split between us… one for the next time we’re all together, anyway.

[John Hoare]

Actually, I?ve been thinking about all this a bit recently, and I think it?d make a great topic for a DwarfCast discussion forum. I think we have a decent split between us? one for the next time we?re all together, anyway.

Oooh, yes! Have it all out once and for all. I think with all of us, there’s at least enough of a difference of opinion to make it worthwhile. And the Tikka Xtended one worked well.

Also: FIX YOUR COMPUTER.

[The Disillusionist]

Actually, I?ve been thinking about all this a bit recently, and I think it?d make a great topic for a DwarfCast discussion forum. I think we have a decent split between us? one for the next time we?re all together, anyway.

Good old VII v VIII debates never get stale, so yeah, go for it guys!

[John Hoare]

It’s like a big weeping scab that I can’t stop picking at.

[The Disillusionist]

Excellent. I look forward to finding out whether it’s a vaguely positive affair – as in “this series is better than that one” or more like “this series is less shit than that one.” Then again, perhaps I already know.

[John Hoare]

I think, in all honesty, Pete 2 gets a bad rap for being the worst Dwarf ep. I’d put more than half of VII as worse – every ep apart Tikka, Stoke, and Blue, really, and the latter two are borderline. (Blue only gets in there because of The Rimmer Experience – the best realised part of the entirety of VII/VIII – and Stoke… well, I’ve never been that keen on it as an episode, really. But that’s a discussion for another time.)

Pete 2 has some good jokes and moments, whilst also having a lot of appalling stuff. (“The whole hog? Like it wasn’t hard enough getting the whole cow.” Oh, go away. I’d prefer Lister to start asking what the fuck an iguana was again.) But stuff like Ouroboros and Epideme I find pretty much unwatchable, with very little to recommend them. I really *don’t* think they succeed at what they’re trying to do – which is be funny, and do interesting character stuff. Wheras VIII, whilst having lots of embarrassing stuff, still has a sense of *fun* and good-naturedness about it which VII lacks. And just plain more funny moments. (“LOOK AFTER IT!”)

Get me drunk, or in a *really* good mood, and I can sometimes forgive VIII’s many, many shortcomings, and concentrate on the good bits. But VII usually has me shouting at the screen within five minutes. Especially if I’m drunk.

[pfm]

I know that I could watch all the episodes from series’ 1-5 over and over again and enjoy them every single time. The same applies for choice episodes in VI (Rimmerworld does my head in apart from one line, you can probably guess which). But I can hardly get through VII/VIII episodes without wishing I’d decided to put something else on. At least now we’ve got the commentaries, which are much more interesting and funny to listen to than the dialogue.

Pete Pt. 2? Mac is good in it. There’s no way it’s the worst episode of Dwarf. I fucking despise Nanarchy, and that’s swearing. The individual episodes of BITR are also worse.

Problems first arose in VI IMO. The show became too self-aware in VI. This happened no doubt due to the popularity of the show blowing up. You can’t go off doing U.S. pilots and then come back and write/produce the show the same way (it happens loads when writers, instead of just writing their show as they normally do, start writing in a way that they think the audience perceives the show to be. RULE NO. 1 for writers – do NOT pander to the audience. The ultimate example of this, IMHO, is Return Of The Jedi.).

The change from Back To Reality to Psirens is actually quite staggering. To me, the start of Psirens feels like a reboot for a bigger, dumber audience. The series is a parody of itself in places. The saving grace, of course, is the out-and-out classic Gunmen.

[John Hoare]

But I can hardly get through VII/VIII episodes without wishing I?d decided to put something else on.

I think it’s probably important to note that whenever I defend VIII, it’s mainly by stating it’s better than VII. Which I honestly believe – I think it’s miles, miles better than VII. But I can’t really defend it as a good sitcom series in its own right. Sure, it’s better than The Crouches, but then so are anal warts.

Anyway, I very much disagree that VI feels like a parody. And whilst it certainly feels different, I don’t feel the writers are talking down to the audience at all. Sure, Back To Reality and Psirens are very different shows, but Psirens is always going to suffer against possibly one of the best episodes of Dwarf ever made.

Although actually, whilst I don’t think it’s the better episode – the plot and characterisation are nowhere near as good – I think Psirens is definitely the funnier episode. Which counts for a lot in a comedy series…

[Phil]

>it?s better than The Crouches, but then so are anal warts.

I just laughed. Was that actually funny, or have I been awake too long?

[Pete Part Three]

The ol’ VII vs VIII debate again, huh?

They’re both pretty lame (VIII more so). The interesting thing is that both lame for entirely different reasons. Series VII has more in common with series V than VIII.

And Pete Part 2 is the worst episode, no question. What the hell actually happens? Hollister gets raped by a dinosaur or something.

[Pete Part Three]

On a similar note, someone should do a 25 minute edit of Back im the Red. There are a few good moments in there, they’re just drowning in dross.

[Andrew]

> On a similar note, someone should do a 25 minute edit of Back im the Red. There are a few good moments in there, they?re just drowning in dross.

Simply not true.

…and so on.

[Somebody]

Worst episode of Red Dwarf, full stop?

Ouroboros. There’s not even any contest. Not funny, not clever, just 100% annoying.

[Pete Part Three]

>Simply not true.

Yeah. Maybe I was being a bit generous calling them ‘good’ moments.

[Phil]

Man, I’m amazed at how much Ouroboros hate there is. I’ve only picked up on it recently, in the past year or so. As far as I’m concerned, it’s not a bad episode, and it’s one of my favorites from the final two series. It gets enough out of me in terms of laughter, and I do feel that Kochanski’s introduction is the best thing about her role in series VII. It was a decent set-up…it just wasn’t sustained all that well.

[John Hoare]

Maybe we should get together and write a Love/Hate article, Phil…

[Danny Stephenson]

I don’t want to create a rift in this group, but I’m also a fan of ‘Ouroboros’. Sorry guys, but to me it is one of the better episodes. But then, i’m not as much of a critic of the episodes as you guys, I just watch Dwarf like a mindless drone.

[Phil]

>Maybe we should get together and write a Love/Hate article, Phil?

Actually, I think I’d be up for that. I remember you and Ian did an IRC debate about the setting of VIII and that made for some good reading.

Not that I’m suggesting the same format or anything, but I do kind of like the point/counterpoint articles.

[John Hoare]

When I’m back on the case with G&T stuff, we’ll have a go.

Seb actually likes Ouroboros as well. And Cappsy has said in this thread that he’s beginning to like VII more. The episode is by no means universally hated round here, which perhaps isn’t something you’d expect…

[John Hoare]

Oh yeah, one thing I forgot to mention:

Pete Pt. 2? Mac is good in it.

Mac McDonald is *fantastic* in VIII. He provides a lot of my favourite moments in the series. Him backing out of the toilet spraying air freshener is the funniest thing in Back in the Red for me. And I don’t mean that snidely – it’s really, really funny.

[pfm]

I’m not a fan of the whole Lister-is-his-own-father loop thing. The episode does very little for me. Duct Soup is a lot better, despite the annoying Kochanski stuff and the fact that the whole thing hinges on Kryten being jealous of her. The worst thing is the lack of the laughter track in the Xtended version. It’s particularly disturbing when Kryten is doing what I like to call the Miss Piggy voice. When he does it and there’s no laughter it just seems so…wrong.

I’ll say it again, I don’t know WHAT the audiences for the VII/VIII episodes were on. Nitrous oxide must have been pumped into the studio. Surely they must do this for the recording of something like My Hero.

[Phil]

>Kryten is doing what I like to call the Miss Piggy voice.

That just tripled my enjoyment of the Kryten whine.

[Seb Patrick]

Ouroboros contains the best non-set-piece (i.e. not the Rimmer Experience) gag in VII : “It’s an obscene phone call, sir…”

[John Hoare]

It *is* a good line. But by that time, the episode has stretched my patience so much that it loses any impact for me.

It’s not my favourite VII joke either, by a long way – that goes to Kryten in Blue:

“Sorry, sir! Wrong disk – that was my German language course; an extract from Hitler’s Nuremburg speech. Definitely hypnotic, but not in the right way.”

That is just a superb line. It’s the kind of line that just makes me stand back in sheer admiration for how clever it is. Something incredibly rare in VII for me, sadly.

But no, Ouroboros does nothing for me. There’s the very occasional good bit – the set for the recreation of Red Dwarf is fantastic, and I love the costumes too – but… well, I just couldn’t get through writing the Xtended differences article on it. It just depressed me far too much. I don’t find it in the slightest bit amusing.

Pete 2 at least makes me laugh before the 25 minute mark. And more than once.

[Andrew]

“And you can’t confuse Rimmer with a book. For a start a book’s got a spine.”

It’s a clever, clever line, and all the better for being character-specific. One of the best of the season.

As for Ouroboros, I find the set-up very uncomfortable. The pub location is fantastic, but the ‘Scouse’ dialogue is weak (and not helped by the performances), and the opening crew scene just shows how badly they need a new character – there’s literally no conflict.

That said, I love the transition of Lister shaving AND brushing his teeth…

My opinion of the overall ep, though, is all over the place. There are times when it commits all the crimes that bug me about VII – it’s actually too tightly-packed for the story to breathe, uses cartoon logic (the dental floss), duff set-ups (the dressing gown) and takes once-subtle gags and makes them overly-literal (the cooking tongs; see also Rachel at Rimmer’s funeral).

But there are sections when I’m genuinely impressed by it. I really like the old-Dwarf flashback, and the harpoon sequence. I like Lister and Kochanski sharing a moment on the balcony. I like the logic of looking your stupidest just when the girl of your dreams returns (no matter the clumsy set-up). I like the way the ouroboros concept gets used (again, no matter the clumsy handling). I like the bluescreen work a lot – making the tunnel itself blue was a genius move and makes it look better than it otherwise would have done.

Also: “You married this?” “He had to.” “You mean…? (indicates pregnancy)” Mis-played, but SUCH a smart joke, without obvious structure and specific punchline. Proper, proper writing, that.

Me, I’d have advised splitting the episode -do a ‘Kochanski arrives’ plot and a ‘Lister discovers his past’ plot. Both are big enough on their own, and, I think, too big to be combined.

[pfm]

> I?d have advised splitting the episode -do a ?Kochanski arrives? plot and a ?Lister discovers his past? plot.

YES! The Lister stuff is dealt with in such a slap-dash fashion, it could have made a great episode if it had been focussed on and reworked a little. It would have made a better series 2 or 3 episode when character stuff actually mattered. OK OK there’s character stuff in VII but it doesn’t feel natural enough for me. That’s one reason I love the early series’, particularly series 2 where there are a lot more character gags and development. I’ll never stop banging on about series 2. It’s easily my favourite.

[Steve Harris]

It made me laugh:

[The Disillusionist]

It made me cry:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKGzVVUtNiw

Lucky it wasn’t around to compete with TM:YNYN.

[John Hoare]

lol random

[Tonguetied]

I feel that Pete part deux was an above average episode, however I did like the short Holly snippets and Mac Mcdonald was a delight throughout. I found the Lister/Rimmer leaping around to be ok, however nothing too side splitting. I would have prefered to see Rimmer being more bossy with Lister, more in line with his personality from the first few series. After all, he is meant to be back to that original Rimmer, albeit with a different setting, a slight mislook doth feel.

[Seb Patrick]

I would presume, though, that rank – something which Rimmer takes incredibly seriously, as Balance of Power demonstrates – goes out of the window when you’re in prison. When they’re in the Tank, Rimmer is not Lister’s superior – he’s his equal. Therefore, he can’t boss him around quite as he’d otherwise want to. I think his desire to obey the hierarchy probably (painfully) outweighs his desire to be cruel to Lister…

[Tonguetied]

Yeah I suppose, but you can’t change his personality, I think it still would have shone through to some extent. I mean he could have at least thrown a line about how much he loathed spending a cell with Lister.

[Pete Part Three]

I think that’s another entry in my lost list of things I hate about VIII. The fact that Rimmer and Lister appear to be quite good mates at certain stages. Uniting against Hollister, other cellmates, over-acting semi-regulars and, at one stage, Kryten.

[John Hoare]

Andrew says some interesting things about the Lister/Rimmer relationship in VIII in this Down Time article. I don’t agree with all the article, but I think the friendship stuff is spot on.

Personally, I don’t care that they become more friendly – indeed, I think that’s what *would* happen. But they’re hardly at each other’s throats all the time anyway in previous series – I love their relationship in The Last Day, for instance, and that’s not antagonistic at all.

[Seb Patrick]

While they still snipe at each other in later series, and it’s never really a given that Lister *likes* Rimmer, I think you can take Me2 as a definite watershed in terms of their relationship…

[Author]

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