Star Trek Crap

[Warbodog]

Sorry to lower the tone and for being so early in the morning. But if you’re a fan of ageing sci-fi franchises generally, or a fan of complaining about them, here are some things going on with Star Trek at the moment:

– Star Trek: Short Treks. Out Now! 4 x short episodes (10-15 mins) being released once a month before Discovery returns. Minimal and supplemental, but proper stories rather than DVD-padding minisodes. The second one (Calypso) is the most Trek has intrigued me since the 90s, written by Michael Chabon. I don’t know where you can watch these where you live.

– Discovery season 2 starts in January. Hope it’s good. I found S1 watchable and they’ve already concluded (abandoned) the war arc I didn’t like. Fan service tends to repel rather than attract me, but I have a soft spot for the ‘lost’ Captain Pike era (I probably watched ‘The Cage’ more than any other episode as a kid), so I’m more interested to see their take on that vaguely-defined crew than watching another reboot of Kirk & co.

– Star Trek: Lower Decks. An adult animated sitcom in development focusing on the humdrum lives of Starfleet technicians. Creator Mike McMahan explains, “I want to do a show about the people who put the yellow cartridge in the food replicator so a banana can come out the other end.” Where do they get their crazy ideas from? Maybe the same places Rob and Doug did, it’s not that similar really.

– Picard series in development starring Patrick Stewart. I didn’t find this announcement exciting, because I prefer new things, but I just found out Michael Chabon’s on the writing team, which will help. Excitement may come as details are released.

– Various rumours about other shows or miniseries invariably centred around existing characters and concepts, but I don’t think anything’s been confirmed and may all be uninteresting clickbait.

– Reboot Star Trek 4 is supposedly stuck in development hell, and something about a weird Tarantino proposal. I don’t care about the films any more.

But never mind that tot – best Trek film? I’d probably go with VI, because I love how timely its analogy is at the end of an era, but 1-IV are all classics or comfort watches in their own ways.

Topic

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Like those little reviews Warbofrog … has inspired me to re-watch the TOS films which I’ve generally struggled to particularly like though I have enjoyed.

That could say more about your ability to make them sound more interesting than they are though

[Warbodog]

I’m surprised you’d need to watch them after I described their plots beat for beat, although not too much worse than the official spoiler-filled trailers for III and especially IV.

The good ones are always worth a watch though. II-IV + VI are some of the best Trek there is.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

II-IV + VI are some of the best Trek there is.

eh … not too sure about that. Although I’ve never never really got on with TOS as a whole.

I quite like Motion Picture for what it is.

[Warbodog]

Not sure why I was in stating things as facts mode, other opinions are permitted. I just think those films really make the most of their run-time, are more memorable and have more depth to them (well, not IV admittedly) that you don’t find in most of the two-parters. Really, most of my favourite Trek is found in DS9, but that’s its own category. And plenty of TNG highlights too. I don’t outright hate Voyager and have lots of nostalgia for it, but there’s nothing in it that comes close to the level of the best TNGs for me.

[Ben Saunders]

Lmao I love the images to end and start each page, classic stuff.

I’m sure my opinions on the films are on the previous page, but to reiterate: The Motion Picture is slow, dull, lifeless and devoid of character, but there’s something so astonishingly beautiful about it towards the end that really affected me and made the whole experience really worth it. Star Trek II I found to be an extremely solid action movie with a tight script but not much more, except of course THAT ending which just hits you like a speeding train.
Star Trek III is my favourite of the movies so far, for its slightly odd structure, adventure tone and emotional core.

I read a post on 4chan’s Trek general which I would like to share, if you’ll forgive me. Somebody said that people who like TPM like their Star Trek slow and cerebral, those who like Wrath of Khan prefer their Star Trek to be like Star Wars, and “Search For Spock is for women and gays because it’s about grown men crying over each other”. Slightly problematic stereotyping aside, as a slightly effeminate bi man who loves the slow, cerebral stuff of TOS and the crying men of ST3, I think he was onto something.

I absolutely recommend watching the movies again, particularly coming off of the show when you have an understanding of the group dynamic and particularly the relationship between Kirk and Spock. I love Star Trek III because it shows what incredible lengths Kirk will go to in the name of Spock, sacrificing everything, right after Spock doing the same for him in 2. Also bringing back the TV show theme music at the end just kicks you right in the gut

[Warbodog]

I like VI best, what does this ‘4 Chan’ fellow have to say about that?!?

I did the pics when procrastinating today and realised I needed to bump the page and post them straight away rather than pointlessly stressing over missing it for however many days. The thread lasted 500 posts before it descended to slash, better than expected really. We didn’t even do “which ship would win” yet.

[Ben Saunders]

The hacker known as “4 Chan” was responding to me specifically about the first three, I think. You probably like comedy (somebody on a Red Dwarf forum appreciating comedy??) if what I’ve heard about IV is true. V is for contrarians I guess, VI is political (I also guess).

I have to admire my own constraint for not talking about breasts for so long, although I think I first expressed my love for Beverley pretty early on

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Do you find Q sexy?

[Warbodog]

VI and DS9 kind of go together tonally, so it makes sense. I liked III best growing up, but came to artistically appreciate II more. If I had to save one though, on a superficial level III introduces all those glorious models that are about 75% of TNG, so it’s very important (Spacedock, Bird-of-Prey (which was supposed to be Romulan), Excelsior class, Oberth class, Merchantman freighter).

Here’s something to get helplessly lost in, clicking through the series tabs to see the multiple reuses across decades: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Studio_model

[Ben Saunders]

Yeah, weren’t the Romulans changed to Klingons fairly Kraft minute because Nimoy thought they were more cinematic or something, leading to weird stuff like the Klingons having cloaking tech and there being a Klingon neutral zone?

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

how long is a Kraft minute in Earth time?

[Warbodog]

The issue of why proud Klingons would use a sneaky cloaking device never really made sense in the context of TNG era Klingons, so it’s probably that film’s/Nimoy’s fault. TOS’s no-budget third season already set a precedent for the two powers sharing ship designs at least, since they couldn’t afford to build another model, so it still works.

>Do you find Q sexy?

I’d go with Q, but I’d be thinking of Neelix.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I’d go with Q, but I’d be thinking of Neelix

Sir, you are sick! You are a sick, sick person! How can you possibly even conceive of such an idea?

[Warbodog]

He’d never leave his one-year-old girlfriend who it’s later established hasn’t entered puberty yet, and we know it.

Oh, Voyager.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

That really is a misstep on their part isn’t it … I like the idea of a species with very short life spaces, but then to pair her off with an old man, just why?!

[JamesTC]

They weren’t in a romantic relationship though. There were the occasional jealous moments in Season 3 (at which point she was the equivalent of a human in their twenties age wise) but a lot of that came across more as an overprotective parent than a jealous lover.

Things don’t seem to have gone well for Jennifer Lien since she left Voyager. It was very harsh how she was written out too. They needed to get rid of a cast member when bringing in Seven of Nine so they decided to get rid of Harry Kim but then he won a sexist man alive poll so the network wanted him to be kept.

[Ben Saunders]

How did he win the sexiest man alive poll? Was it rigged?

[Warbodog]

The parent angle didn’t come across to me at all, but I haven’t watched it since that time, so maybe. She was introduced in promotional materials as “Neelix’s partner,” which you could say was ambiguous. They were going to have a baby at one point, which is less. Do parents refer to their children as “my sweet?” Maybe they do. Bit weird.

I was going to save this up for when Ben reached Voyager, but my introduction to the series was this interesting/funny trailer for the pilot that’s notable for its non-quality-controlled voice-over that uses the Doctor’s redacted name from promotional materials and mispronounces half of the others. A very progressive character summary for Kez [sic] too.

[Warbodog]

Trailer breakdown:

– “One of the most respected captains in the Starfleet” – I always took Voyager and her captain and crew to be pretty ordinary by Starfleet standards, as a contrast to the elite Enterprise. Jeri Taylor’s semi-canon novels probably clear it up.

– “Chah Kartay.”

– “Toowok” – don’t know what the “peacekeeper” stuff’s about, just say security officer.

– “Communications Officer Harry Kim” – technically operations officer like Data, but this probably still applies, his role’s a bit vague compared to the others. According to Rick Berman, his role was “the ensign.”

– “Barlarner Tarrez.”

– “An alien unlike any ever encountered by the Federation” – see most episodes of Star Trek.

– “Kez, a young and beautiful alien and Neelix’s partner” – get the Bechdel Test on that.

– “Doc Zimmerman” – they dropped the name quite late on, it was in magazine previews too.

– “Voyejoh.”

[GlenTokyo]

Phantasms with the Gunmen esque plot point again. Considering these aired 4 days apart, suppose Android characters just lend themselves to certain concepts.

[Warbodog]

Phantasms was the first TNG I saw, turning on part way through as a kid. Bit of a weird one to come in on, but very memorable.

Roddenberry’s failed TV pilot The Questor Tapes would have been the definitive android series if that had been picked up in the 70s (probably, I haven’t seen it).

[GlenTokyo]

Force of Nature is a bit on the nose, a noble theme but it’s so obvious it’s a bit like one of those WWF adverts currently airing telling me I’m killing the planet even though I’ve been recycling for 20 years and don’t drive.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

You just being alive is killing the planet you selfish bastard

[Ben Saunders]

Big corporations and China are destroying the planet. You’re doing fine. 100 companies are responsible for 71% of global C02 emissions, but don’t forget to switch your TV off at the wall and walk to school.

[GlenTokyo]

Truth. Literally couldn’t do anymore outside of covering my house and self in some kind of vegetation to suck up the CO2 I come into contact with. LED bulbs, smart meters, solar panels, 4 kinds of recycling, I walk or use hybrid/electric public transport. So WWFs panda hit squad can chase someone else haha…

Back on Trek, Troi is fucking amazing – why did they just use her for tits appeal for so long?

[JamesTC]

I was thinking about Force of Nature a few weeks ago.

It completely fails in terms of trying to make people pay attention to environmental issues and even in-universe the future episodes just pay it a little lip service or ignore it completely…

…just like when governments try to “go green” and it is ignored within a few months.

Force of Nature being a complete disaster makes it a perfect analogy for the fight against global warming.

“What? Warp drive is destroying the universe? Ahh we’ll be fine”

[GlenTokyo]

It was nearly there, they could have played the “can’t train a cat” up more because it being an analogy for not being able to control the force of nature was a bit lost. Generally though it’s just that it ends poorly, just speeches in the observation room and then “oh, Starfleet say keep it to warp 5”.

[GlenTokyo]

Attached and Dark Page were good. Attached in particular, although the tag things looked like those locks you get on bus station lockers.

[Warbodog]

Here’s some Deep Space Nine concept art for the sake of it, because I love this stuff and because more images will help to make this page more annoying to load as it goes on.

Designer Herman Zimmerman:

“Berman said: find me the most alien thing that you can create that could be a space station at the edge of the galaxy. I thought of a gyroscope shape as maybe being a basic form that we could work with. We also vaguely connected the gyroscope shape with the shape of an atom, with all the electons running around the nucleus. So what you see in the Deep Space Nine exterior now is a combination of an atom, a Mercedes emblem and a gyroscope.”

“The Cardassian mind prefers balance to symmetry, ellipses to circles, angles to straight lines and hard metallic surfaces and dark colors. They don’t like ninety-degree angles.”

Here’s a floor plan of how the massive Promenade set and adjoining sets on Paramount Stage 17 fit together in real life. I would have loved to have taken a walk around there.

I wish they’d release the DS9 Companion in ebook some time, it’s the best reference book I’ve ever seen. I got rid of my paperback years ago, wasn’t going to lug that 700-pager in my backpack everywhere.

The Art of Star Trek was great too. I can fill this page with TOS / Phase II / Movies / TNG concept art if anyone wants it.

[Ben Saunders]

I’ve listened to this about six times this morning, learning the bassline and chords. I fucking love it. Almost as good as the actual video of Shatner talking nonsense for what must be fifteen minutes, and making you believe every word he says. I love how on show Shatnerian pauses are in this, and that typical Captain Kirk talking… slowly… before… finishingyoursentencequickly, on “and the climb… is… going… wherenomanhasgonebefore.” Shatner and Kirk are indistinguishable in the clip.

[Ben Saunders]

Reminds me most obviously of this speech from TOS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cOlJdObNlc

Those facial expression he does, before “risk”, after “equally great”.

[Ben Saunders]

For anyone who’s interested (ie nobody), the bass line is this: https://i.imgur.com/LzUlCrn.png and the chords for the chorus are Dm F Gm C

[Warbodog]

Discussing the episodes and films is all well and good, but this thread is best when it’s fixating on obscure extracurricular tangents in unnecessary detail.

TOS rock: http://vulcansrock.com/freemusic.html

[Ben Saunders]

I don’t think anybody in here is into music theory, but I found it interesting how the Kirk Climbing A Mountain song starts on a Bb lydian sound before going into F major for the chorus, where the key signature doesn’t change, but the tonal center does.

Nobody?

I’ll check out that TOS rock later

[Plastic Percy]

I’ve been watching Trekkies again, and it’s brought up a bit of mixed feelings.

I was far too young for it, but there’s a cosy nostalgia to life as a Trek fan in the nineties. All those small town conventions and homemade costumes that don’t look quite right; but get 10/10 for effort and imagination. It’s quite refreshing in this day and age where sci-fi conventions are big, sleek corporate affairs and people spend hundreds of pounds on screen accuracte costumes (honestly, I’ve seen people pay over £80 just to get the right buttons for their Matt Smith Doctor jackets).

But also, and I’m not entirely sure this is deliberate on the part of the producers, but in making a film about how Trekkies are just everyday people with a passion for Star Trek, the first film in particular just showcases the worst of fan excess. I also felt a little sorry for Barbra Adams, the Whitewater juror who turned up in her Starfleet uniform. The second film, where we get to see more of her day-to-day life, gives the impression she’s stuck in a dead-end job and has retreated into Star Trek as an escapist fantasy.

I was googling randomly and discovered that Douglas Marks – the crossdressing Wrath of Khan singer – was imprisoned for elder abuse in 2010, having left his elderly mother in a bathtub unattended for 18 hours. And, more worryingly, came across what appears to be the genuine Twitter profile of Tony Alleyne – the guy who transformed his flat into the Enterprise and was arrested for downloading photos of child abuse.

[Warbodog]

I was thinking about Trekkies earlier in the thread, when we were talking about Denise Crosby moving on to greater things… that amounted to some guest spots in TNG and fronting a documentary they couldn’t bag a bigger name for.

It definitely goes for the freak show angle, tempered by occasional sweetness like James Doohan talking about how he inspired a suicidal woman to become an engineer. I watched Trekkies 2 once, but it mustn’t have been exploitative enough for me to remember.

My favourite part was Brent Breaks, because I knew someone who was similarly obsessed with a celebrity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT9j2pVxius

[Plastic Percy]

Yeah, you have to wonder how quickly Denise Crosby realised she’d shot herself in the foot. I think she’s the weakest actress out of the initial crew, but Tasha as a character had a lot of potential. Of the original three female characters she’s the only one not in a ‘caring’ job and is shown to be tough and capable without compromising her femininity.

The character of Sela, the convoluted daughter of alternate Tasha, feels like an awkward idea for Crosby to get her foot back in the door.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Fuck knows what Denise was thinking leaving. I know her reason was “her character didn’t have anything to do” – but really, no-ones character was that fleshed out that they had anything to do but visit planets and deliver lines.

As you point out Percy, she was one of the better written female characters in the lead roles at the time, much more interesting which a back story that could have created some excellent stories has she stuck around.

Instead she crops up in bit roles here and there and desperately clings to her Trek credentials to try and stay somewhat in the game, which is quite sad really.

[Warbodog]

I forgot she produced Trekkies and Trekkies 2, so I was being unfair about them not attracting a bigger name. But that makes the sense of regret even stronger. Maybe she’d done the lucrative convention circuit a lot and felt comfortable with her position in the franchise by then, that’s how she comes across.

I like Tasha as well and see the potential there, but that might largely be the novelty of her being rare.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I don’t even really see the point of her doing the convention circuit. Apart from fucking Data and dying, she character has nothing of note for her to really discuss, and all her production stories must pale in comparison to actors who spent 7+ years making the show

[Ben Saunders]

Did they just abandon they storyline about Wesley being told he’s the fucking chosen one and will grow up to be Jesus, according to The Traveller? Good.

[Warbodog]

Nope.

[Warbodog]

Where you at? If Rightful Heir put you off, I think that’s the last full-on Klingon episode in TNG. Klingon stories in DS9 and the films usually have bigger picture things going on than some dead guy’s honour to keep you invested, or they start mucking around a bit because Ron Moore was sick of being asked to write the Klingon ones.

[GlenTokyo]

Lower Decks got me right in the feels. Lt Ogawa is unbelievably annoying though, can you imagine working with her? No thanks.

[Warbodog]

Lower Decks is great, the animated sitcom it inspired remains to be seen. You might have recognised the Vulcan from Voyager, he’s played by producer Jeri Taylor’s son, but in a Tom Paris-style aversion to crossover continuity they gave the characters slightly different names (Taurik/Vorik). For some bloody reason.

[Warbodog]

Didn’t want to pay René Echevarria and the other writers royalties for their character, I guess.

[GlenTokyo]

Whenever I see him in it goes “I never knew Freddie Prinze Jr was in Star Trek” then I Google it and find out he isn’t. Then it’s “wasn’t he in Voyager/TNG?” depending on what I’m watching.

It’s funny you say about them not just keeping the characters and transferring them though because the one they actually kept I didn’t remember even though I watched The First Duty about 2 weeks ago.

[GlenTokyo]

Suppose that was within their own show though, rather than across the Bermanverse.

[Hamish]

You can believe most Vulcans look the same though.

[Warbodog]

Y’all look alike.

[Author]

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