The Doctor Who Spoilers Thread – Part II

[John Hoare]

This thread continues this discussion. The topic was split because the system was running out of memory. Bastards.

Topic

[Seb Patrick]

>It IS real, btw (it?s been removed from OG, and regardless of that you can tell it?s a real shot)

Yeah, that’s definitely real. The stuff that we know for definite, based on descriptions of a genuine embargoed promotional image that’s out there, is that he has a wide headrest behind his head, and that there are buckles on his tunic. Both of those are present and correct in that pic, so I’d say it’s real. Looks good to me!

[Andrew]

Forest of the Dead was so good that I went out today and bought a sonic screwdriver with free psychic paper and wallet. True story.

Don’t usually bother with the online commentaries, but in this week’s Davies, Moffat and Tennant barely mention the episode itself in their hurry to discuss the change of showrunner…

[pfm]

One of the funniest things in that commentary is when they say how Steve Pemberton was supposed to be doing it but couldn’t so they get Tennant instead. RTD simply can’t believe that the Doctor is the standby for the commentary!

Interestingly enough, there’s only one person who can talk more on a commentary than RTD and that’s Moffat!! He’ll have to learn though. How crazy is he giving clues for an episode we won’t be seeing for 22 months??

Another thing, we were previously led to believe that RTD has nothing to do with Moffat’s scripts and just lets him get on with it with no interference. Evidently not so. I reckon it’s a shame the two of them couldn’t have collaborated on the entireity of series 4 with no other writers (Moran’s Fires of Pompeii could stay).

Despite the joke of Tennant sending Moffat his CV for series 5 I don’t think he will, or should, do it. Moffat should start his rein with a brand new Doctor, otherwise he’s finishing what the previous showrunner started. Ten should go in the final RTD episode (Christmas ’09?). I think that will be more than enough Tennant. The worst thing would be a season too many. You want it so people AREN’T clamouring for him to leave. And NO James Nesbitt cannot, will not be the 11th Doctor!!!

[Andrew]

> Another thing, we were previously led to believe that RTD has nothing to do with Moffat?s scripts and just lets him get on with it with no interference

See, I always thought people grabbed onto this simplistic view insanely quickly. We’ve all seen the footage of the tone meetings – Moffat didn’t, for example, come up with the clockwork nature of TGITF’s robots. He’s writing on someone else’s show and doesn’t create in a vacuum.

RTD makes the odd ‘I don’t have to touch them’ comment – quick, publicity-friendly praise based on a general ‘he delivers great scripts’ idea – and suddenly it’s ‘see, Moffat doesn’t need Davies and his WAYS’. Of course there are rewrites, of course there are changes, and of course the exec producer and huge creative team do more than simply bend to the will of Moffat’s words.

> Moffat should start his rein with a brand new Doctor

I don’t think ‘should’ at all. ‘Could’, or ‘might’, but being ‘stuck’ with a brilliant actor in a career-defining part is no bad thing. Tennant’s a long way from outstaying his welcome.

It’s an odd fan thing, to want the edges so tidy, as if having a great leading man roll over is somehow hampering to creativity.

[Ian Symes]

I think it’d be hugely preferable to *not* have a clean break. Tennant should stay on to smooth the transition. Having *everything* change at once is a huge gamble, and anything to ease the burden has got to be grabbed with both hands.

[Pete Part Three]

Quite. And I really do think they’ll struggle to find anyone half as good.

[John Hoare]

By the end of next year, Tennant will have done four years in the role. That’s longer than any other actor since Colin Baker (ignoring McCoy’s long wait).

I wouldn’t mind him staying on for a fifth year at all… but I can’t see it happening. He’ll probably want to move on. The benefit is that at least one of the big specials next year will be his regeneration, which is worthy of big fuck-off special.

[Andrew]

> That?s longer than any other actor since Colin Baker (ignoring McCoy?s long wait).

True, but those are unusual years – Baker fired, McCoy cancelled, McGann not picked up, Eccleston used as a series spark plug…

…or did you mean TOM Baker? Which would also be accurate. (Or at least on-par.)

[John Hoare]

Gah, I meant Tom Baker!

I’m OBSESSED.

[John Hoare]

Anyway, I haven’t really got an opinion on this – it depends where Moffat wants to take the show, and we don’t really know details yet. Depending on what his vision for the show is, it’s either a good idea for Tennant to stay on, or a bad idea.

I really don’t think Tennant will want to do a fifth year, though. But that’s pure guesswork.

[pfm]

The specials pretty much amount to half a series so it’s not as though he’s NOT doing a 5th year in the role. I just get the nagging feeling that with everything else new in 2010 Tennant shouldn’t be there. If series 5 was going to be the last ever series then I would say he should definitely stay on, but other than that I’m hoping for a brand new fresh Moffat-created Doctor and companion pairing.

I want the first episode of series 5 to be like the equivalent of ‘Rose’ where everyone was excited not knowing what the show was going to be like. With Tennant there we would already know because in a way it would be same-old same-old. In some ways I’m sick of his mannerisms as the Doctor. I don’t DISLIKE his Doctor but it’s coming around to the point where major change would help the show.

[Andrew]

> I?m hoping for a brand new fresh Moffat-created Doctor and companion pairing.

Though Tennant remaining wouldn’t prevent this…

I suspect – given comments about Tennant coasting through series 4 (when he blatantly isn’t, even if the writing sometimes is) – this is more about your tiring of the actor than anything else. Certainly I don’t see how losing him would ‘help the show’ – would a Moffat series with a new actor be automatically better than one that kept the current incumbent? Not likely.

Plus the number of people who could easily follow Tennant are not many in number.

[Pete Part Three]

I think it would be strange for him to leave before Series 5, as surely the main reason for doing specials next year (as opposed to a full series) is to accommodate him.

[Jonathan Capps]

Why would it be strange, though? He’ll be in all the specials (which exist to accommodate his work load) but not in series 5 (which doesn’t exist to accommodate his work load).

[Pete Part Three]

Because the fact that there’s only 4 of them seems like a way of giving Tennant a break so he can do other stuff and be refreshed for another 13 episodes in 2010.

Or maybe I’m just hopelessly optimistic. In my defence, he’s the only actor I really like in the role (but then again, I haven’t clocked up a full tenure with any of the others aside from McGann and Eccleston).

Colin Baker’s first scene was enough to convince me he was a twat and his performance in The Two Doctors didn’t change that initial opinion. I did try and watch a few “classic” episodes on the anniversary weekend on UKGold recently but it wasn’t for me (aside from An Unearthly Child which was at least accessible).

[pfm]

Slay me if you like but IMO Tom Baker, Troughton, Eccleston and (eventually) Tennant simply ARE the Doctor in their episodes. The others are the actors playing the Doctor. Maybe the later Tom Baker era suffers from that a little too, but you can’t touch him in that role from seasons 12 through 16.

Because Tennant was intent on playing the Doctor as a character as opposed to being all natural I think he took a while to get used to. It didn’t help that his first main story (New Earth) was pretty crap, Tooth & Claw a mediocre runaround and School Reunion fanwank crossed with a CBBC plot and villains. Eccleston’s first three eps were MUCH better (I don’t care what anyone says, I fucking love Rose and End of the World). His whole season was hugely better than Tennant’s first in terms of writing.

[Ben Paddon]

Monkey, this is one of those rare occasions where I agree with you (although I enjoyed Tooth & Claw).

[Arlene Rimmer BSc SSc]

>Slay me if you like but IMO Tom Baker, Troughton, Eccleston and (eventually) Tennant simply ARE the Doctor in their episodes. The others are the actors playing the Doctor.

Funnily enough, one of the biggest reasons Tom Baker was so convincing as the Doctor is because he more or less became the Doctor, twenty-four hours a day (in his autobiography he as much as admits that this wasn’t any good for his psychological health).

In other news, has anyone else seen anything of the First Doctor? It’s just that (after giving up the first time around and trying again once I got my fancy-pants new computer) I recently contrived to have “The War Machines” turn up innocently on my hard drive in nearly-ten-minute chunks, and I really like William Hartnell’s take on the character.

[ChrisM]

I did try and watch a few ?classic? episodes on the anniversary weekend on UKGold recently but it wasn?t for me (aside from An Unearthly Child which was at least accessible).

I was never that keen on the classic doctor series either. Then I saw City of Death this year.

Rather good.

Moffat didn?t, for example, come up with the clockwork nature of TGITF?s robots.

From a realism point of view maybe they shouldn’t have gone that route. I didn’t really think the clockwork droids fitted with the tech of the ship.

Have to admit, I really liked them though.

[Seb Patrick]

In other news, has anyone else seen anything of the First Doctor? It?s just that (after giving up the first time around and trying again once I got my fancy-pants new computer) I recently contrived to have ?The War Machines? turn up innocently on my hard drive in nearly-ten-minute chunks, and I really like William Hartnell?s take on the character.

I shall come back… yes, I shall come back.

[Seb Patrick]

Ep twelve title (apparently) confirmed by the Beeb. It’s one of the already-mooted ones, and to be quite frank, it’s not spoilerish in the slightest (highlight to see) : The Stolen Earth

[Michael Warren]

You can find the info at http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/proginfo/tv/wk27/sat.shtml#sat_doctorwho (contains mild spoilers)

[Ben Paddon]

Chris M doesn’t look like Judie Dench…
From a realism point of view maybe they shouldn?t have gone that route. I didn?t really think the clockwork droids fitted with the tech of the ship.

Y’see, I disagree. The clockwork men are repair droids. That’s their sole purpose. It makes sense that the ship would need something that can’t be taken out by, say, a strong EMP. “Analog” droids are perfect for this – they are more than likely powered by kinetic energy, not electrical.

[John Hoare]

Going back to the Doctors for a moment – I don’t think there has been a miscast Doctor yet. But then, I think it’s very difficult to miscast the role – the show is so adaptable that you can shape it around pretty much anybody.

But I think you underrate Hartnell at your peril. He’s amazing, fluffs and all. And anybody who thinks that the Doctor and love stories are original to New Who needs to go and watch The Aztecs – and Hartnell shines in it.

[ChrisM]

Y?see, I disagree. The clockwork men are repair droids. That?s their sole purpose. It makes sense that the ship would need something that can?t be taken out by, say, a strong EMP. ?Analog? droids are perfect for this – they are more than likely powered by kinetic energy, not electrical.

I didn’t think of that, good point actually.

And also, on eventuality the ship has no power, the droids still have a power source.

What’s with the Judie Dench?

[ChrisM]

And… very interesting picture.

Strange, completely naked apart from the shades, I can’t quite make out her face. The nose and lips look familiar… Piper?

[Arlene Rimmer BSc SSc]

>But I think you underrate Hartnell at your peril. He?s amazing, fluffs and all.

I know. I’m saying he’s excellent! Even when he fluffs a line, it lends to the overall notion that the First Doctor is an incredibly intelligent (and more than a bit secretive) person playing the role of “eccentric old man”.

I think next I might have a Patrick Troughton story land innocently in my hard drive. Any suggestions (for either the First or Second Doctors)?

[Seb Patrick]

It’s gotta be Tomb of the Cybermen for Troughton, surely?

[Jonathan Capps]

Dodgy racial attitudes aside!

[John Hoare]

Yeah, Toberman is really dodgy. But apart from that, it’s an excellent serial. I also recommend The Invasion.

God, the survival rate of the Troughton era is just depressing. Enough of the Hartnells survive to get a good indication of the era, but huge swathes of Troughton eps just don’t exist.

[pfm]

All the surviving Troughton’s that I’ve seen (episodes I mean, not members of his family who seem to crop on on everything :)) have been stellar. Tomb, The Invasion, Seeds of Death, The Mind Robber(my personal favourite). And Evil of the Daleks is one of the best Dalek stories but sadly aside from one episode it only exists in audio form. It’s a CRYING shame that the Troughton era doesn’t exist in its entireity.

> I can?t quite make out her face. The nose and lips look familiar? Piper?

Surely you should recognise the nipple from Secret Diary of a Call Girl…

[Tanya Jones]

FFS PM; think of those of us at work!

[Ian Symes]

Ooh yes, The Mind Robber is excellent.

[Baz]

>It?s a CRYING shame that the Troughton era doesn?t exist in its entireity.

As well as the others- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incomplete_Doctor_Who_serials

Invent a FTL drive, get ahead of the TV signal as it spreads out from Earth and record them. Or ask some nice neighbourhood aliens, lessee… Ah, the inhabitants of Zeta Reticuli (39 light years out, binary system, G-type stars) will just have finished enjoying the Troughton era. You can go ask them. Hmm, Chigs or Pierin, I’d suggest the latter. Stay clear of LV-426 though…

[pfm]

Here we go with another REAL spoiler image.

I have to say I’m most pleased. Although it still looks like Tennant’s makeup from Last of the Time Lords, albeit a different colour. Whatever, that’s being too picky, it looks great. Now we’ve got to trust Julian Bleach to give us a good performance. His voice is 100% perfect.

[ChrisM]

Another minor spoiler-

Did the original Davros have that “thing” on the forehead area? (I know what it is, I’m just trying to keep the spoilers to a minimal.) Either way, it’s a nice little link to the look of the daleks….

….unclothed, so to speak.

[Andrew]

> Did the original Davros have that ?thing? on the forehead area?

Yes.

Typing ‘Davros’ into Google can be so tiring, though, can’t it? :-)

[pfm]

Does he have an all-mechanical body? It would make sense if you consider past episodes. They probably won’t deal with it.

[Seb Patrick]

Whoa. Is that officially allowed to be out there now, or has someone been naughty?

I think he looks fantastic. It’s a brilliant piece of updating, and a nice cross between the Wisher and Molloy versions. I like that the chair is black rather than gold, as well. And the red Dalek looks great, too – but I will be bloody annoyed if it turns out to be who/what it’s rumoured to be…

[Seb Patrick]

Hey, notice how the red Dalek doesn’t have a “name tag”…?

[Ian Symes]

What’s it rumoured to be?

[Seb Patrick]

Highlight : Harriet Jones

[Andrew]

I wrote the following towards the end of series two:

“It’s worth asking, though, what’s next for this production. Last year, to make the schedule work, they wrote a sub-plot in for a minor character (it involved having a hatch put into his forehead. Not especially inspired). Just so the main actors could have a break. This year they made an entire episode without the mains (a couple of scenes aside).

My suggestion: split the buggers up. Doctor goes one way, companion goes the other. Then you spend two weeks on a single storyline, told from both sides, from two perspectives. You can even cliffhanger the companion’s half, then resolve it at the 30-minute mark of the Doctor’s ep.”

While it’s not a single story, it DOES sound like the next two eps of series four are a ‘Doctor episode’ then a ‘Donna episode’. Which proves I am a scripty legend. (As if the ‘Work’ quotes on andrewellard.com didn’t already. :-))

[pfm]

I reckon something’s gonna happen at the end of ‘Midnight’ that’s gonna leave the Doctor either stranded somewhere or actually DEAD, from a certain point of view. Donna will pilot the Tardis back home herself at the start of ‘Turn Left’ (that’s why they showed her using the controls a few episodes back) then Rose will appear saying something like ‘Donna Noble? Hi, my name’s Rose Tyler…’ cut to intro. Or that might be how ‘Midnight’ ends.

[Andrew]

> Which proves I am a scripty legend.

Though obviously it would have been more impressive if I’d just written “Steven Moffat should write Blink”.

[Jonathan Capps]

Firstly: Davros. Looks. Fucking. AWESOME. All my worries about him just looking like old Doctor have gone. That mask is fucking brilliant and terrifying.

Secondly: I agree with ‘monkey. These last episodes are going to be a four part finale in the same way that last year’s was three part.

[John Hoare]

Yeah, I can’t remember whether I said that earlier in the thread, but ever since I saw that RTD wrote the last four episodes, I’ve thought of it in my head as a big four-parter. Equivalent to an EIGHT-parter in old series terms…

[Jonathan Capps]

Just in case any of you haven’t seen the HUGE resolution photo of You-Know-Who:

http://www.cpnet.co.uk/oldnoeyes.jpg

[Jonathan Capps]

Also, for those who care:

Empty Dances > Human of Blood > Silence in the Forest > The Impossible Pit

[Andrew]

Empty Dances > Human of Blood > Silence in the Forest > The Impossible Pit

I’m still struggling to choose between them. I rewatched Empty Dances recently and found the first section to be a touch hasty and far-fetched in the set-up (people meeting people, Doc and Rose separated), but the whole thing to be especially awesome in in its second half.

The Moffats seem to be better in their second halves, with the others best up front, but…nope, that still gives me an even score. Impossible Pit gets points knocked off for a cheat in the cliffhanger (a POV shot turning out to be nothing of the sort), I suppose.

[Author]

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