The Doctor Who Spoilers Thread – Part II

[John Hoare]

This thread continues this discussion. The topic was split because the system was running out of memory. Bastards.

Topic

[Jonathan Capps]

> Still, it would be interesting if I?m proven wrong.

Prepare to be interested.

[Seb Patrick]

Meanwhile, Lawrence Miles reckons he can do better than the Cardiff team, and attempts to prove it with a script supposedly “written in four days”.

And it turns out… he can’t. Oh, it’s not a bad idea for a story. And I’m sure it would have made a great NA or EDA. But it ain’t a telly script, not by a long shot. Especially not a telly script designed to “reboot” or “reintroduce” the idea.

[Andrew]

Poor Chris. You went out on a limb, and it broke right out from under you. :-)

Yeah. That’s Davros. Or…looking again, maybe it’s Norman Lovett?

[ChrisM]

Chris, trust me – it is Davros. Some of us have our sources, and we know he?s in the finale. He?s being played by an actor called Julian Bleach.

That’s just cheating.

And aside from anything else, that is most decidedly NOT a Dalek. IT?S THE WRONG SHAPE. IT IS DAVROS.

Wrong shape? Sigh… I’m off for another look…
…. back now.

Ok, it might look a bit squatter at the bottom. That’s easy enough to miss though, you could easily take that for a dalek (and I stick with what I said about the silhouette, albeit that is likely deceptive.) It’s definitely not AS DIFFERENT as those capitals above suggest.

And I did all my deducting from just the broadcast stuff.

Rubbish deducting maybe… but I DIDN’T CHEAT!

(That was meant in a kidding tone, I’m not having a go. It’s just a tv show after all.)

Cheaters.

;)

[John Hoare]

>As for Eurovision, I enjoyed it more than any episode of Who this series, I?m afraid

Crikey really? I wouldn?t go near that far.

To be fair, it really says as much about my love of Eurovision – and the kind of television Eurovision represents – as to how I feel about Who this year!

[Ben Paddon]

From his gaping maw flew a thousand black crows, each one carrying this malevolent lyric on its wings…
Yeah. That?s Davros. Or?looking again, maybe it?s Norman Lovett?

Arf.

[John Hoare]

The way Rose says “Right… now we’re in trouble” in that trailer is fucking excellent. I don’t know why, but it is.

[John Hoare]

Also: I honestly enjoyed the Dalek two-parter last year… but the reappearance of the Daleks this year would have been SO much more effective if they hadn’t shown up since Series 2. (And I doubt last year’s two-parter will prove to have anything *vital* to this year’s plot.)

If it hadn’t been for last year, each and every Dalek appearance in the new series so far would have proper far-reaching consequences for the series. Much as I enjoyed the two episodes (more than the Sontaran two-parter this year)… it *did* cheapen them, and there’s no getting away from that.

[pfm]

> The way Rose says ?Right? now we?re in trouble? in that trailer is fucking excellent. I don?t know why, but it is.

Probably because it suggests something seriously kickass is going to happen. Hopefully something that’s gonna make us forget about the crap parts of the last two seasons’s finales. She delivers it brilliantly too. I think people too easily forgot that Billie was the best companion actress Who has ever had. Freema is like school play-standard in comparison (admittedly school plays can be good…)

> about my love of Eurovision – and the kind of television Eurovision represents

It’s not even worth me commenting on that.

[Seb Patrick]

>The way Rose says ?Right? now we?re in trouble? in that trailer is fucking excellent. I don?t know why, but it is.

Agreed. You-know-who aside, that was the best moment, and I really can’t wait for her to show up. As Cappsy says, I think she may well have got some of that series one mojo back.

But what do we reckon’s going on with him flying through t’vortex like that? And notice the burning console room at one point – redesign next year? As I’ve mentioned to some people, the TARDIS playset has started to go uber-cheap in places, and apparently they’ve been saying for a while they want to re-do the console as it looks crap in HD…

[pfm]

> they?ve been saying for a while they want to re-do the console as it looks crap in HD?

So they’re really considering going HD? Obviously it’s gonna happen eventually but considering it’s such a CG-heavy show it’s currently not a viable option. In Torchwood they just seem to be able to do big grey blob-like HD graphics and not much else.

[Ben Paddon]

What they’ve actually been saying is that they won’t switch to HD because it’d make the console look crap. There’s been no talk of re-doing it.

[Seb Patrick]

Ah, okay – I’ve misinterpreted something someone else has told me, then.

Nevertheless… the TARDIS playset is, like I say, ludicrously cheap in Forbidden Planets across the country at the moment (under fifteen quid). So I wouldn’t be surprised to see a revamp before too long.

[Jonsmad]

There is (and quite wonderfully so) so much new who discussion on this site,
I think you need a seperate who forum. Ganymede and Tardis? It’s a far more popular topic than dwarf is around here, understandably.

[Seb Patrick]

It’s not a bad idea, but the thing is… I don’t want to speak for everyone else, but in general we’re pretty against the idea of creating forums for the sake of it. Another Who forum would, to me, be a bit pointless as there’s already one (the old OG one) that’s big enough for every discussion you’d ever need.

The main reason for the existence of the G&T forum is so that the regulars of this site can talk about what they want outside of the framework of a specific subject/fandom/etc. The group of people existed first, and we created the forum to cater for them, rather than vice versa. Yes, there happen to be loads of Who fans around here – but I like that all the discussion is just in these two threads (and it would be one, if the other didn’t exist for such a specific purpose). I personally don’t really see any reason to set up specific subforums (I prefer to just let people talk about what they want when they want to) or even a site in its own right. In the latter case, I don’t really think we have the time, inclination or depth of knowledge to do something like that – we all have enough trouble keeping up with the various sites we run as it is!

[Pete Part Three]

Gallifrey and Titan, anyone?

[Danny Stephenson]

Gallifrey and Tardis would be an excellent sister site to this :D

[John Hoare]

I agree with Seb. The thing I like about G&T’s forum is that you click on the link, and it’s all *there*. No links to click through to the different sections – everything’s where you need it. What you lose with scanning through topics you might not be interested in, you gain in it all being on one page, and being able to glance quickly down the list.

If it ever got busy enough that topics were dropping off the front page before the conversation had truly finished, it might be an idea to start spinning off separate sections. Otherwise, it’s probably best how it is.

*Optional* pagination for long forum threads is something that needs adding, though.

[Phil]

>The group of people existed first, and we created the forum to cater for them, rather than vice versa.

Amazing how many other sites don’t seem to realize that this is the CORRECT way to do this. I remember at first being a bit nervous about this forum because it really did start pretty slowly…but before too long it got rolling and now the momentum is up high enough that it’s worth checking daily. Definitely went a long way toward expanding G+T’s value.

[John Hoare]

It is very, very weird how so many people seem to think that if they set up a forum, then people will automatically come to it. Except in extremely rare circumstances, it just ain’t gonna happen… and also generally reveals you to be more interested in having the word ‘Moderator’ by your name than having any well-meaning community spirit.

[pfm]

I’m still finding it hard to decide whether I like series 4 or not. Nothing has blown me away (the Pompeii episode would have if it had been a 2-parter). I think we’ve really missed the odd better-written episode in the first half of the season. In series 3 it was RTD’s Gridlock (Smith & Jones was great too). We really shouldn’t have had to wait for Moffat to deliver anything truly outstanding. Here’s to Moffat hiring BETTER mid-season writers for series 5!!

And can you imagine the key episodes being penned by him? I have a feeling things are gonna get really good in 2010.

[Ben Paddon]

performingmonkey told reporters on the scene…
(the Pompeii episode would have if it had been a 2-parter)

No it wouldn’t. It was perfectly fine in a 45-minute timeframe. Making it a two-parter would have stretched it out unnecessarily.

I think the revived Doctor Who suffers from some bizarre parody of the Star Trek Movie Curse – it seems that the even-numbered series suffer from a dip in quality.

[pfm]

> the even-numbered series suffer from a dip in quality

Except much of series 3 was shit too. The Lazarus Experiment, 42, debatably the Dalek 2-parter (IMO there’s NO debate about how shit they are). As things stand so far series 4 is probably better than 3 on the whole. Admit it, TDD and TU&TW were NOT as bad as Lazarus and 42, and the Sontaran Stratagem was the best first half 2-parter since series 1.

Whatever, we still haven’t been delivered THE GOODS yet. Doctor Who is a kids’ programme, it doesn’t mean it can’t be great. Sarah Jane Adventures is proof of that (I loved the whole of that series).

[Jonathan Capps]

Except much of series 3 was shit too. The Lazarus Experiment, 42, debatably the Dalek 2-parter (IMO there?s NO debate about how shit they are). As things stand so far series 4 is probably better than 3 on the whole. Admit it, TDD and TU&TW were NOT as bad as Lazarus and 42, and the Sontaran Stratagem was the best first half 2-parter since series 1.

No, I’m sorry performingmonkey, but you’re very (half) wrong. Shut up now, I want you to stop.

Lazarus may have been insubstantial and too reliant on a shit special effect but it has great performances, not least from Mark Gatiss who was brilliant, and actually felt substantial. TDD had absolutely nothing that stood out about it. It was a nothing episode.

True, very few things on this Earth are worse than 42, but you;re forgetting the following FACTS:

Smith and Jones > Partners in Crime
Gridlock > Anything Series 4 has to offer
Martha Jones >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Donna Fucking Noble.

Those things mean that, at the moment, Series 3 is kicking 4’s arse all over the place. And, considering the last part of series 3 was close to being perfect Who, 4’s got a lot to live up to. Only the last two episodes of series 3 have any hope of being bettered this year, as far as I’m concerned.

[Rad]

Yep, agree with everything above (apart from Mark Gatiss performance in Lazarus which I don’t remember being brilliant). Series 3 has been much better than Series 4 was so far.

[Andrew]

> TDD

Just for the sake of clarity, this is actually the acronym for TWO New Who episodes.

> Gridlock > Anything Series 4 has to offer

Never, ever going to understand the love for Gridlock.

[ChrisM]

>Martha Jones >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Donna Fucking Noble.

I disagree with this.

I like both characters, but I find Donna a much more three dimensional character. And I think Tate, as a whole, the better actress.

Which isn’t to say Freema hasn’t had her moments. She actually does put her all into the more emotional scenes, and carries it off very well. For example she seemed genuinely distraught when the fish guy ended up sinking in the muck in The Doctor’s daughter, and it wasn’t just the pretty “Boohoo, boohoo” but heart wrenched sobs.

She made a quick recovery though. And the rest of the time she seems to say her lines as if she’s, well, saying her lines. She’s a young actress though so she’s got room for improvement.

Tate’s been pretty good from the set go though. Her character can be irritating, yes, but I think that’s part of what makes the character interesting.

Course, looks wise, most would plump for Martha Jones, but I’m not just watching Who for eye candy (not to accuse people here of course, but the looks do sway some peoples appreciation of the characters. Not that Tate looks bad.)

And soon we’ll have Rose. Rose with a big gun. Yum.

[John Hoare]

ME ME ME ME ME – bear in mind this is just a quick gut reaction as to how I feel about the series, not an intended dissection and justification, or I’d be here all day:

Smith & Jones > Partners in Crime
The Shakespeare Code and The Fires of Pompeii are about equal, I think – but I’d probably take Shakespeare because of the lack of Donna (of which more below).
Gridlock > Planet of the Ood
Dalek two-parter > Sontaran two-parter, for *all* its faults (and I agree it has many).
The Doctor’s Daughter >>>>>>>>> The Lazarus Experiment, for me. I bloody hated Lazarus, although maybe I just couldn’t get past the shit monster to appreciate anything else. But it was the first New Who episode that I was actively bored by.
The Unicorn and the Wasp > 42

So, Series 3 wins for me, by five episodes to two. But perhaps it’s notable that the last two episodes of Series 4 I’ve preferred to their Series 3 counterparts. After the trailer for the second half of the series, I’m REALLY positive that, like Series 3, we’re going to have an amazing second half, too.

The thing with Donna v. Martha is that, on paper, Donna is by FAR the more interesting character. By a million miles. And maybe Tate *is* the better actress. But I just can’t get past the fact that she irritates me too much to appreciate it (and she irritates me by what she does in the series – not by any of my preconceptions). I know a lot of people have been won over by her by her, but I really wish it was a different actress playing the same character…

I have to say though – I’d say the first half of this series is “underwhelming”. Not by ANY means “shit” (although Partners veers far too close to it).

[Andrew]

Well if we’re going to do this properly:

Rose >> Smith & Jones >> New Earth >>>>>>>>>> Partners in Crime

The Fires of Pompeii >> The Shakespeare Code > Tooth and Claw > The End of the World

School Reunion > Planet of the Ood >> The Unquiet Dead > Gridlock

Sontaran two-parter > Slitheen two-parter > Cybermen two-parter > Dalek two-parter (Christ, they’ve never got this one right, have they.)

The Girl in the Fireplace > Dalek >>> The Doctor’s Daughter >> The Lazarus Experiment

The Unicorn and the Wasp >> 42 > The Idiot’s Lantern > The Long Game

While I consider Partners in Crime an all-time low for the entire new run to date, Fires is a genuine classic for me – okay, it not up to Dalek or Fireplace, but close enough to impress.

So while TUATW and the Sontarans mostly win their categories due to slack competition, as far as I’m concerned the balance with seasons past is pretty much cock-on.

[Andrew]

Also: How did I miss that Steve Pemberton was in the new Moffat story?!

[John Hoare]

I really want to watch the Cyberman two-parter again – I *loved* it at the time, and in my mind it’s by far the best out of the Cybermen/Dalek/Slitheen/Sontaran two-parters. But I’ve not seen it since broadcast (need the Series 2 DVD set!), and a lot of people have said how disappointing they found it on second viewing. Maybe the excellent Lion Sleeps Tonight bit just lingers too long in the memory – the first (but not the only) time New Who really grossed me out.

The Fires of Pompeii >> The Shakespeare Code > Tooth and Claw > The End of the World

What I find interesting about The End of the World is how little it stands up to rewatching. At the time, I LOVED it – but that’s because it was the BBC doing a big SF show again, and that was exciting in itself. Now, the odd moment aside, it does little for me – unlike Rose, which just gets better each time I watch it (and as you say, is definitely the best season opener to date).

[Jonathan Capps]

The End of the World is better than all of those other episodes, you great fannies.

[John Hoare]

Also, it’s interesting that whilst this game of directly comparing episodes from the same slot obviously doesn’t give the *whole* story with regards to the quality of the series, it does give a *reasonable* idea as to how much you like a series. This wouldn’t work so well with, say, Buffy, or Dwarf. Who’s seasons do have a set shape to them, which is pretty unusual.

It’s generally a good shape too, but Moffat coming in and hopefully shaking things up a bit isn’t a bad thing either. But I really hope he keeps the Doctor-lite eps, as the two so far rank as two of my favourite episodes ever. It’s stunning what a virtue they’ve made out of a neccessity. Can’t wait for this year’s.

[John Hoare]

The End of the World is better than all of those other episodes, you great fannies.

I’d happily take Pompeii or Shakespeare over TEOTW now – I had a great time with those. But I’ll admit that the BEST time I’ve had with that slot is with TEOTW on the first viewing – and maybe it’s the first viewing that’s most important, and the show has got to be seen in context of introducing the series. But then, as I said, it’s not a problem that I think Rose suffers from. (It doesn’t help that the chips dialogue at the end is some of the most irritating dialogue in New Who so far, though.)

Still, I might prefer TEOTW to Tooth & Claw…

[Jonathan Capps]

This is a fun game, despite the fact that going by episode order does mess up some of the categories of episode (it splits up the celebrity historicals and year 5 billion episodes, but never mind.)

* Rose > Smith & Jones > New Earth > Partners in Crime
* The End of the World > Fires of Pompeii > Tooth and Claw > The Shakespeare Code
* Gridlock > The Unquiet Dead > Planet of the Ood > School Reunion
* The Sontaran Sky > Manhatten of the Daleks > Aliens of War III > Rise of the Steel
* Girl in the Fireplace > Dalek > The Lazarus Experiment > The Doctor’s Daughter
* The Long Game > The Idiot’s Lantern > The Unicorn and the Wasp > 42 (Jesus, what a shit bunch)

Aaaaand, continuing without series 4, for now:

* Human of Blood > The Empty Child Dances > The Impossible Pit (all great, though)
* Blink > Father’s Day > Love & Monsters
* Utopia > Boom Town > Fear Her
* Bad Ways > The Sound of Timelords > Army of Doomsday (again, all great)

[Jonathan Capps]

> and maybe it?s the first viewing that?s most important

I think this is key. Talking on the phone to Julian right after TEotW finished I was almost entirely convinced I’d just seen the best episode of anything ever. It was the first time we got a hint that the mythology of The Doctor and his home planet is important, it was the first mention of the Time War, it was our first pre credits mini cliff-hanger, it was the first we saw of Gorton’s prosthetic works, it was the first time we saw The Mill doing ‘epic’… it was just so many things all at once. I can overlook its flaws as I can see them now, because I just keep looking at it in the context of that first viewing.

Meanwhile, in opposite land, I can enjoy Boom Town much more now as it’s no longer the annoying filler while I’m waiting to get my DALEKS.

[John Hoare]

I think this is key. Talking on the phone to Julian right after TEotW finished I was almost entirely convinced I?d just seen the best episode of anything ever. It was the first time we got a hint that the mythology of The Doctor and his home planet is important, it was the first mention of the Time War, it was our first pre credits mini cliff-hanger, it was the first we saw of Gorton?s prosthetic works, it was the first time we saw The Mill doing ?epic?? it was just so many things all at once. I can overlook its flaws as I can see them now, because I just keep looking at it in the context of that first viewing.

Can’t argue with a lot of that, actually. In fact, you’ve convinced me that TEOTW is a lot better than I thought it was. I fucking FORGOT that was the first mention of the Time War – it’s so much part of the series now…

[Andrew]

> Moffat coming in and hopefully shaking things up a bit isn?t a bad thing either.

Please God let the Neil Gaiman rumours be true…

[Andrew]

Ooh, later episodes! Only Cappsy, I think your order got a bit muddled, and you missed G&M, Father’s Day and Utopia:

Human of Blood = The Empty Child Dances = The Impossible Pit (I really can’t bring myself to choose! And this new stories are likely to only increase my dilemma.)

Blink > Father’s Day > Love & Monsters (I like L&M, but it can’t hold a candle to the otehr two, Blink especially)

Utopia > Boom Town > Fear Her (Though I liked Fear Her more than most)

Army of Doomsday > Bad Ways > The Sound of Timelords (Hated the first cybermen story, loved the return)

[John Hoare]

Oh, god, I’ve got to do it for all of them now! Actually, it’s not far off yours, Capps:

Rose > Smith & Jones > New Earth > Partners in Crime
Fires of Pompeii > The Shakespeare Code > TEOTW > Tooth and Claw (yes, after a bit of thought, I’ve changed my mind on this one)
Gridlock > The Unquiet Dead > Planet of the Ood > School Reunion
Cybermen > Daleks > Slitheen > Sontarans
Girl in the Fireplace > Dalek > The Doctor’s Daughter > The Lazarus Experiment
The Idiot’s Lantern > The Long Game > The Unicorn and the Wasp > 42 (never understood the hatred for TIL, although I suppose it’s possible I’ll realise when I finally get the S2 set!)

Gah, it gets messy from this point, doesn’t it? I forgot that the second two-parter wasn’t always in the same place in the series…

SCARECROWS AND JOHN SMITH > WORLD WAR II AND CAPTAIN JACK > SATAN FUCKING ABOUT (but yes, there’s not an episode there that isn’t outstanding – The Impossible Planet is about the worst, I suppose)

As for the final two/three-parters – I can’t decide between them. They’re ALL fucking great. I suppose for consistancy, Series 1 wins it – but Series 2 and 3 have so many standout moments (with John Simm being responsible for some of my favourite moments in New Who so far, and the end of Doomsday being the most emotionally affecting), that… no, I can’t choose.

In fact, thinking of that bunch of seven episodes just makes me want Series 4’s finale RIGHT NOW.

[John Hoare]

Blink > Father?s Day > Love & Monsters (I like L&M, but it can?t hold a candle to the otehr two, Blink especially)

Utopia > Boom Town > Fear Her (Though I liked Fear Her more than most)

Agreed with all of this!

God, thinking back on all these episodes just makes me realise how MUCH brilliant stuff New Who has managed to date…

[Jonathan Capps]

> Ooh, later episodes! Only Cappsy, I think your order got a bit muddled, and you missed G&M, Father?s Day and Utopia:

Ah, crap. I’m way too tired.

[Jonathan Capps]

Right, fixed. I’m not entirely happy with some of the comparisons as there are some VERY different episodes lumped into the same category there, but as a rough guide I think it shows my overall opinions of the series as a whole quite well.

[Jonathan Capps]

> God, thinking back on all these episodes just makes me realise how MUCH brilliant stuff New Who has managed to date?

I had a big realisation last year when I was compiling a top ten to show to Gavin (Who-sceptic through and through) and I was absolutely spoilt for choice. The list I ended up with (can’t find it at the moment) was solid brilliance and that was with a lot of brilliant stuff missed off.

Thinking about it, nothing from Series 4 so far would make it onto that list.

[John Hoare]

Thinking about it, nothing from Series 4 so far would make it onto that list.

This is true for me as well, unfortunately. Still, that TRAILER… either we’re in for a fucking great last six episodes, or I’m going to be in for the biggest disappointment of my ENTIRE LIFE.

Oh, we’ve not done the Christmas eps, have we? I’d go: The Christmas Invasion > The Runaway Bride > Voyage of the Damned. Easily.

[Jonathan Capps]

> This is true for me as well, unfortunately. Still, that TRAILER? either we?re in for a fucking great last six episodes, or I?m going to be in for the biggest disappointment of my ENTIRE LIFE.

Indeed. Someone on Another Forum made a good point the other day. They said that when an episode is a top quality writing wise then everything steps up a level or two. The direction, the acting, the music – everything. I have a feeling that’s what we’ll see. I’m so excited about Moffatt’s episodes I think I might wee myself.

Also:

The Christmas Invasion > The Runaway Bride > Voyage of the Damned

Like you say, easy, that one. Right after Voyage of the Damned I was sure it was my favourite, but it REALLY suffered on repeat viewings.

[Jonathan Capps]

> (apart from Mark Gatiss performance in Lazarus which I don?t remember being brilliant)

There’s just something about Gatiss that makes me happy, I guess. He’s like Stephen Fry in the way he could read out the phonebook and I’d be transfixed. He’s got a way about him that I love.

[John Hoare]

I want him to write more Who. Even if people didn’t like The Idiot’s Lantern, most people love The Unquiet Dead, don’t they?

And when the hell is Rob Shearman coming back?

[Ridley]

He’s better in anything that isn’t Doctor Who

Official anyway.

[Andrew]

The Runaway Bride > The Christmas Invasion > Voyage of the Damned

Oh yes. Deal with it!

> Right after Voyage of the Damned I was sure it was my favourite, but it REALLY suffered on repeat viewings.

To be fair I think this is the curse of disaster movies. The Poseidon Adventure (or its remake), Towering Inferno…Voyage worked really, really hard to be like them, and ended up cursed with the same problem – that they’re essentially shallow endeavors. Entertaining the first time, but when the tension is in survival/not, once you know who dies, who lives, how each problem is solved, and where the surprises come from, there’s not a lot left.

[Author]

Replies