Home Forums Ganymede & Titan Forum The Doctor Who Spoilers Thread – Part II

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  • #80702
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    > Still, it would be interesting if I?m proven wrong.

    Prepare to be interested.

    #80709
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Meanwhile, Lawrence Miles reckons he can do better than the Cardiff team, and attempts to prove it with a script supposedly “written in four days”.

    And it turns out… he can’t. Oh, it’s not a bad idea for a story. And I’m sure it would have made a great NA or EDA. But it ain’t a telly script, not by a long shot. Especially not a telly script designed to “reboot” or “reintroduce” the idea.

    #80710
    Andrew
    Participant

    Poor Chris. You went out on a limb, and it broke right out from under you. :-)

    Yeah. That’s Davros. Or…looking again, maybe it’s Norman Lovett?

    #80711
    ChrisM
    Participant

    Chris, trust me – it is Davros. Some of us have our sources, and we know he?s in the finale. He?s being played by an actor called Julian Bleach.

    That’s just cheating.

    And aside from anything else, that is most decidedly NOT a Dalek. IT?S THE WRONG SHAPE. IT IS DAVROS.

    Wrong shape? Sigh… I’m off for another look…
    …. back now.

    Ok, it might look a bit squatter at the bottom. That’s easy enough to miss though, you could easily take that for a dalek (and I stick with what I said about the silhouette, albeit that is likely deceptive.) It’s definitely not AS DIFFERENT as those capitals above suggest.

    And I did all my deducting from just the broadcast stuff.

    Rubbish deducting maybe… but I DIDN’T CHEAT!

    (That was meant in a kidding tone, I’m not having a go. It’s just a tv show after all.)

    Cheaters.

    ;)

    #2351
    John Hoare
    Participant

    This thread continues this discussion. The topic was split because the system was running out of memory. Bastards.

    #80704
    John Hoare
    Participant

    >As for Eurovision, I enjoyed it more than any episode of Who this series, I?m afraid

    Crikey really? I wouldn?t go near that far.

    To be fair, it really says as much about my love of Eurovision – and the kind of television Eurovision represents – as to how I feel about Who this year!

    #80714
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    From his gaping maw flew a thousand black crows, each one carrying this malevolent lyric on its wings…
    Yeah. That?s Davros. Or?looking again, maybe it?s Norman Lovett?

    Arf.

    #80716
    John Hoare
    Participant

    The way Rose says “Right… now we’re in trouble” in that trailer is fucking excellent. I don’t know why, but it is.

    #80717
    John Hoare
    Participant

    Also: I honestly enjoyed the Dalek two-parter last year… but the reappearance of the Daleks this year would have been SO much more effective if they hadn’t shown up since Series 2. (And I doubt last year’s two-parter will prove to have anything *vital* to this year’s plot.)

    If it hadn’t been for last year, each and every Dalek appearance in the new series so far would have proper far-reaching consequences for the series. Much as I enjoyed the two episodes (more than the Sontaran two-parter this year)… it *did* cheapen them, and there’s no getting away from that.

    #80718
    pfm
    Participant

    > The way Rose says ?Right? now we?re in trouble? in that trailer is fucking excellent. I don?t know why, but it is.

    Probably because it suggests something seriously kickass is going to happen. Hopefully something that’s gonna make us forget about the crap parts of the last two seasons’s finales. She delivers it brilliantly too. I think people too easily forgot that Billie was the best companion actress Who has ever had. Freema is like school play-standard in comparison (admittedly school plays can be good…)

    > about my love of Eurovision – and the kind of television Eurovision represents

    It’s not even worth me commenting on that.

    #80720
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    >The way Rose says ?Right? now we?re in trouble? in that trailer is fucking excellent. I don?t know why, but it is.

    Agreed. You-know-who aside, that was the best moment, and I really can’t wait for her to show up. As Cappsy says, I think she may well have got some of that series one mojo back.

    But what do we reckon’s going on with him flying through t’vortex like that? And notice the burning console room at one point – redesign next year? As I’ve mentioned to some people, the TARDIS playset has started to go uber-cheap in places, and apparently they’ve been saying for a while they want to re-do the console as it looks crap in HD…

    #80726
    pfm
    Participant

    > they?ve been saying for a while they want to re-do the console as it looks crap in HD?

    So they’re really considering going HD? Obviously it’s gonna happen eventually but considering it’s such a CG-heavy show it’s currently not a viable option. In Torchwood they just seem to be able to do big grey blob-like HD graphics and not much else.

    #80729
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    What they’ve actually been saying is that they won’t switch to HD because it’d make the console look crap. There’s been no talk of re-doing it.

    #80731
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Ah, okay – I’ve misinterpreted something someone else has told me, then.

    Nevertheless… the TARDIS playset is, like I say, ludicrously cheap in Forbidden Planets across the country at the moment (under fifteen quid). So I wouldn’t be surprised to see a revamp before too long.

    #80733
    Jonsmad
    Participant

    There is (and quite wonderfully so) so much new who discussion on this site,
    I think you need a seperate who forum. Ganymede and Tardis? It’s a far more popular topic than dwarf is around here, understandably.

    #80734
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    It’s not a bad idea, but the thing is… I don’t want to speak for everyone else, but in general we’re pretty against the idea of creating forums for the sake of it. Another Who forum would, to me, be a bit pointless as there’s already one (the old OG one) that’s big enough for every discussion you’d ever need.

    The main reason for the existence of the G&T forum is so that the regulars of this site can talk about what they want outside of the framework of a specific subject/fandom/etc. The group of people existed first, and we created the forum to cater for them, rather than vice versa. Yes, there happen to be loads of Who fans around here – but I like that all the discussion is just in these two threads (and it would be one, if the other didn’t exist for such a specific purpose). I personally don’t really see any reason to set up specific subforums (I prefer to just let people talk about what they want when they want to) or even a site in its own right. In the latter case, I don’t really think we have the time, inclination or depth of knowledge to do something like that – we all have enough trouble keeping up with the various sites we run as it is!

    #80736
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Gallifrey and Titan, anyone?

    #80742
    Danny Stephenson
    Keymaster

    Gallifrey and Tardis would be an excellent sister site to this :D

    #80744
    John Hoare
    Participant

    I agree with Seb. The thing I like about G&T’s forum is that you click on the link, and it’s all *there*. No links to click through to the different sections – everything’s where you need it. What you lose with scanning through topics you might not be interested in, you gain in it all being on one page, and being able to glance quickly down the list.

    If it ever got busy enough that topics were dropping off the front page before the conversation had truly finished, it might be an idea to start spinning off separate sections. Otherwise, it’s probably best how it is.

    *Optional* pagination for long forum threads is something that needs adding, though.

    #80768
    Phil
    Participant

    >The group of people existed first, and we created the forum to cater for them, rather than vice versa.

    Amazing how many other sites don’t seem to realize that this is the CORRECT way to do this. I remember at first being a bit nervous about this forum because it really did start pretty slowly…but before too long it got rolling and now the momentum is up high enough that it’s worth checking daily. Definitely went a long way toward expanding G+T’s value.

    #80770
    John Hoare
    Participant

    It is very, very weird how so many people seem to think that if they set up a forum, then people will automatically come to it. Except in extremely rare circumstances, it just ain’t gonna happen… and also generally reveals you to be more interested in having the word ‘Moderator’ by your name than having any well-meaning community spirit.

    #80796
    pfm
    Participant

    I’m still finding it hard to decide whether I like series 4 or not. Nothing has blown me away (the Pompeii episode would have if it had been a 2-parter). I think we’ve really missed the odd better-written episode in the first half of the season. In series 3 it was RTD’s Gridlock (Smith & Jones was great too). We really shouldn’t have had to wait for Moffat to deliver anything truly outstanding. Here’s to Moffat hiring BETTER mid-season writers for series 5!!

    And can you imagine the key episodes being penned by him? I have a feeling things are gonna get really good in 2010.

    #80797
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    performingmonkey told reporters on the scene…
    (the Pompeii episode would have if it had been a 2-parter)

    No it wouldn’t. It was perfectly fine in a 45-minute timeframe. Making it a two-parter would have stretched it out unnecessarily.

    I think the revived Doctor Who suffers from some bizarre parody of the Star Trek Movie Curse – it seems that the even-numbered series suffer from a dip in quality.

    #80798
    pfm
    Participant

    > the even-numbered series suffer from a dip in quality

    Except much of series 3 was shit too. The Lazarus Experiment, 42, debatably the Dalek 2-parter (IMO there’s NO debate about how shit they are). As things stand so far series 4 is probably better than 3 on the whole. Admit it, TDD and TU&TW were NOT as bad as Lazarus and 42, and the Sontaran Stratagem was the best first half 2-parter since series 1.

    Whatever, we still haven’t been delivered THE GOODS yet. Doctor Who is a kids’ programme, it doesn’t mean it can’t be great. Sarah Jane Adventures is proof of that (I loved the whole of that series).

    #80799
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Except much of series 3 was shit too. The Lazarus Experiment, 42, debatably the Dalek 2-parter (IMO there?s NO debate about how shit they are). As things stand so far series 4 is probably better than 3 on the whole. Admit it, TDD and TU&TW were NOT as bad as Lazarus and 42, and the Sontaran Stratagem was the best first half 2-parter since series 1.

    No, I’m sorry performingmonkey, but you’re very (half) wrong. Shut up now, I want you to stop.

    Lazarus may have been insubstantial and too reliant on a shit special effect but it has great performances, not least from Mark Gatiss who was brilliant, and actually felt substantial. TDD had absolutely nothing that stood out about it. It was a nothing episode.

    True, very few things on this Earth are worse than 42, but you;re forgetting the following FACTS:

    Smith and Jones > Partners in Crime
    Gridlock > Anything Series 4 has to offer
    Martha Jones >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Donna Fucking Noble.

    Those things mean that, at the moment, Series 3 is kicking 4’s arse all over the place. And, considering the last part of series 3 was close to being perfect Who, 4’s got a lot to live up to. Only the last two episodes of series 3 have any hope of being bettered this year, as far as I’m concerned.

    #80803
    Rad
    Participant

    Yep, agree with everything above (apart from Mark Gatiss performance in Lazarus which I don’t remember being brilliant). Series 3 has been much better than Series 4 was so far.

    #80804
    Andrew
    Participant

    > TDD

    Just for the sake of clarity, this is actually the acronym for TWO New Who episodes.

    > Gridlock > Anything Series 4 has to offer

    Never, ever going to understand the love for Gridlock.

    #80805
    ChrisM
    Participant

    >Martha Jones >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Donna Fucking Noble.

    I disagree with this.

    I like both characters, but I find Donna a much more three dimensional character. And I think Tate, as a whole, the better actress.

    Which isn’t to say Freema hasn’t had her moments. She actually does put her all into the more emotional scenes, and carries it off very well. For example she seemed genuinely distraught when the fish guy ended up sinking in the muck in The Doctor’s daughter, and it wasn’t just the pretty “Boohoo, boohoo” but heart wrenched sobs.

    She made a quick recovery though. And the rest of the time she seems to say her lines as if she’s, well, saying her lines. She’s a young actress though so she’s got room for improvement.

    Tate’s been pretty good from the set go though. Her character can be irritating, yes, but I think that’s part of what makes the character interesting.

    Course, looks wise, most would plump for Martha Jones, but I’m not just watching Who for eye candy (not to accuse people here of course, but the looks do sway some peoples appreciation of the characters. Not that Tate looks bad.)

    And soon we’ll have Rose. Rose with a big gun. Yum.

    #80810
    John Hoare
    Participant

    ME ME ME ME ME – bear in mind this is just a quick gut reaction as to how I feel about the series, not an intended dissection and justification, or I’d be here all day:

    Smith & Jones > Partners in Crime
    The Shakespeare Code and The Fires of Pompeii are about equal, I think – but I’d probably take Shakespeare because of the lack of Donna (of which more below).
    Gridlock > Planet of the Ood
    Dalek two-parter > Sontaran two-parter, for *all* its faults (and I agree it has many).
    The Doctor’s Daughter >>>>>>>>> The Lazarus Experiment, for me. I bloody hated Lazarus, although maybe I just couldn’t get past the shit monster to appreciate anything else. But it was the first New Who episode that I was actively bored by.
    The Unicorn and the Wasp > 42

    So, Series 3 wins for me, by five episodes to two. But perhaps it’s notable that the last two episodes of Series 4 I’ve preferred to their Series 3 counterparts. After the trailer for the second half of the series, I’m REALLY positive that, like Series 3, we’re going to have an amazing second half, too.

    The thing with Donna v. Martha is that, on paper, Donna is by FAR the more interesting character. By a million miles. And maybe Tate *is* the better actress. But I just can’t get past the fact that she irritates me too much to appreciate it (and she irritates me by what she does in the series – not by any of my preconceptions). I know a lot of people have been won over by her by her, but I really wish it was a different actress playing the same character…

    I have to say though – I’d say the first half of this series is “underwhelming”. Not by ANY means “shit” (although Partners veers far too close to it).

    #80812
    Andrew
    Participant

    Well if we’re going to do this properly:

    Rose >> Smith & Jones >> New Earth >>>>>>>>>> Partners in Crime

    The Fires of Pompeii >> The Shakespeare Code > Tooth and Claw > The End of the World

    School Reunion > Planet of the Ood >> The Unquiet Dead > Gridlock

    Sontaran two-parter > Slitheen two-parter > Cybermen two-parter > Dalek two-parter (Christ, they’ve never got this one right, have they.)

    The Girl in the Fireplace > Dalek >>> The Doctor’s Daughter >> The Lazarus Experiment

    The Unicorn and the Wasp >> 42 > The Idiot’s Lantern > The Long Game

    While I consider Partners in Crime an all-time low for the entire new run to date, Fires is a genuine classic for me – okay, it not up to Dalek or Fireplace, but close enough to impress.

    So while TUATW and the Sontarans mostly win their categories due to slack competition, as far as I’m concerned the balance with seasons past is pretty much cock-on.

    #80813
    Andrew
    Participant

    Also: How did I miss that Steve Pemberton was in the new Moffat story?!

    #80814
    John Hoare
    Participant

    I really want to watch the Cyberman two-parter again – I *loved* it at the time, and in my mind it’s by far the best out of the Cybermen/Dalek/Slitheen/Sontaran two-parters. But I’ve not seen it since broadcast (need the Series 2 DVD set!), and a lot of people have said how disappointing they found it on second viewing. Maybe the excellent Lion Sleeps Tonight bit just lingers too long in the memory – the first (but not the only) time New Who really grossed me out.

    The Fires of Pompeii >> The Shakespeare Code > Tooth and Claw > The End of the World

    What I find interesting about The End of the World is how little it stands up to rewatching. At the time, I LOVED it – but that’s because it was the BBC doing a big SF show again, and that was exciting in itself. Now, the odd moment aside, it does little for me – unlike Rose, which just gets better each time I watch it (and as you say, is definitely the best season opener to date).

    #80815
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    The End of the World is better than all of those other episodes, you great fannies.

    #80816
    John Hoare
    Participant

    Also, it’s interesting that whilst this game of directly comparing episodes from the same slot obviously doesn’t give the *whole* story with regards to the quality of the series, it does give a *reasonable* idea as to how much you like a series. This wouldn’t work so well with, say, Buffy, or Dwarf. Who’s seasons do have a set shape to them, which is pretty unusual.

    It’s generally a good shape too, but Moffat coming in and hopefully shaking things up a bit isn’t a bad thing either. But I really hope he keeps the Doctor-lite eps, as the two so far rank as two of my favourite episodes ever. It’s stunning what a virtue they’ve made out of a neccessity. Can’t wait for this year’s.

    #80817
    John Hoare
    Participant

    The End of the World is better than all of those other episodes, you great fannies.

    I’d happily take Pompeii or Shakespeare over TEOTW now – I had a great time with those. But I’ll admit that the BEST time I’ve had with that slot is with TEOTW on the first viewing – and maybe it’s the first viewing that’s most important, and the show has got to be seen in context of introducing the series. But then, as I said, it’s not a problem that I think Rose suffers from. (It doesn’t help that the chips dialogue at the end is some of the most irritating dialogue in New Who so far, though.)

    Still, I might prefer TEOTW to Tooth & Claw

    #80818
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    This is a fun game, despite the fact that going by episode order does mess up some of the categories of episode (it splits up the celebrity historicals and year 5 billion episodes, but never mind.)

    * Rose > Smith & Jones > New Earth > Partners in Crime
    * The End of the World > Fires of Pompeii > Tooth and Claw > The Shakespeare Code
    * Gridlock > The Unquiet Dead > Planet of the Ood > School Reunion
    * The Sontaran Sky > Manhatten of the Daleks > Aliens of War III > Rise of the Steel
    * Girl in the Fireplace > Dalek > The Lazarus Experiment > The Doctor’s Daughter
    * The Long Game > The Idiot’s Lantern > The Unicorn and the Wasp > 42 (Jesus, what a shit bunch)

    Aaaaand, continuing without series 4, for now:

    * Human of Blood > The Empty Child Dances > The Impossible Pit (all great, though)
    * Blink > Father’s Day > Love & Monsters
    * Utopia > Boom Town > Fear Her
    * Bad Ways > The Sound of Timelords > Army of Doomsday (again, all great)

    #80820
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    > and maybe it?s the first viewing that?s most important

    I think this is key. Talking on the phone to Julian right after TEotW finished I was almost entirely convinced I’d just seen the best episode of anything ever. It was the first time we got a hint that the mythology of The Doctor and his home planet is important, it was the first mention of the Time War, it was our first pre credits mini cliff-hanger, it was the first we saw of Gorton’s prosthetic works, it was the first time we saw The Mill doing ‘epic’… it was just so many things all at once. I can overlook its flaws as I can see them now, because I just keep looking at it in the context of that first viewing.

    Meanwhile, in opposite land, I can enjoy Boom Town much more now as it’s no longer the annoying filler while I’m waiting to get my DALEKS.

    #80821
    John Hoare
    Participant

    I think this is key. Talking on the phone to Julian right after TEotW finished I was almost entirely convinced I?d just seen the best episode of anything ever. It was the first time we got a hint that the mythology of The Doctor and his home planet is important, it was the first mention of the Time War, it was our first pre credits mini cliff-hanger, it was the first we saw of Gorton?s prosthetic works, it was the first time we saw The Mill doing ?epic?? it was just so many things all at once. I can overlook its flaws as I can see them now, because I just keep looking at it in the context of that first viewing.

    Can’t argue with a lot of that, actually. In fact, you’ve convinced me that TEOTW is a lot better than I thought it was. I fucking FORGOT that was the first mention of the Time War – it’s so much part of the series now…

    #80822
    Andrew
    Participant

    > Moffat coming in and hopefully shaking things up a bit isn?t a bad thing either.

    Please God let the Neil Gaiman rumours be true…

    #80823
    Andrew
    Participant

    Ooh, later episodes! Only Cappsy, I think your order got a bit muddled, and you missed G&M, Father’s Day and Utopia:

    Human of Blood = The Empty Child Dances = The Impossible Pit (I really can’t bring myself to choose! And this new stories are likely to only increase my dilemma.)

    Blink > Father’s Day > Love & Monsters (I like L&M, but it can’t hold a candle to the otehr two, Blink especially)

    Utopia > Boom Town > Fear Her (Though I liked Fear Her more than most)

    Army of Doomsday > Bad Ways > The Sound of Timelords (Hated the first cybermen story, loved the return)

    #80824
    John Hoare
    Participant

    Oh, god, I’ve got to do it for all of them now! Actually, it’s not far off yours, Capps:

    Rose > Smith & Jones > New Earth > Partners in Crime
    Fires of Pompeii > The Shakespeare Code > TEOTW > Tooth and Claw (yes, after a bit of thought, I’ve changed my mind on this one)
    Gridlock > The Unquiet Dead > Planet of the Ood > School Reunion
    Cybermen > Daleks > Slitheen > Sontarans
    Girl in the Fireplace > Dalek > The Doctor’s Daughter > The Lazarus Experiment
    The Idiot’s Lantern > The Long Game > The Unicorn and the Wasp > 42 (never understood the hatred for TIL, although I suppose it’s possible I’ll realise when I finally get the S2 set!)

    Gah, it gets messy from this point, doesn’t it? I forgot that the second two-parter wasn’t always in the same place in the series…

    SCARECROWS AND JOHN SMITH > WORLD WAR II AND CAPTAIN JACK > SATAN FUCKING ABOUT (but yes, there’s not an episode there that isn’t outstanding – The Impossible Planet is about the worst, I suppose)

    As for the final two/three-parters – I can’t decide between them. They’re ALL fucking great. I suppose for consistancy, Series 1 wins it – but Series 2 and 3 have so many standout moments (with John Simm being responsible for some of my favourite moments in New Who so far, and the end of Doomsday being the most emotionally affecting), that… no, I can’t choose.

    In fact, thinking of that bunch of seven episodes just makes me want Series 4’s finale RIGHT NOW.

    #80825
    John Hoare
    Participant

    Blink > Father?s Day > Love & Monsters (I like L&M, but it can?t hold a candle to the otehr two, Blink especially)

    Utopia > Boom Town > Fear Her (Though I liked Fear Her more than most)

    Agreed with all of this!

    God, thinking back on all these episodes just makes me realise how MUCH brilliant stuff New Who has managed to date…

    #80826
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    > Ooh, later episodes! Only Cappsy, I think your order got a bit muddled, and you missed G&M, Father?s Day and Utopia:

    Ah, crap. I’m way too tired.

    #80819
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Right, fixed. I’m not entirely happy with some of the comparisons as there are some VERY different episodes lumped into the same category there, but as a rough guide I think it shows my overall opinions of the series as a whole quite well.

    #80827
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    > God, thinking back on all these episodes just makes me realise how MUCH brilliant stuff New Who has managed to date?

    I had a big realisation last year when I was compiling a top ten to show to Gavin (Who-sceptic through and through) and I was absolutely spoilt for choice. The list I ended up with (can’t find it at the moment) was solid brilliance and that was with a lot of brilliant stuff missed off.

    Thinking about it, nothing from Series 4 so far would make it onto that list.

    #80828
    John Hoare
    Participant

    Thinking about it, nothing from Series 4 so far would make it onto that list.

    This is true for me as well, unfortunately. Still, that TRAILER… either we’re in for a fucking great last six episodes, or I’m going to be in for the biggest disappointment of my ENTIRE LIFE.

    Oh, we’ve not done the Christmas eps, have we? I’d go: The Christmas Invasion > The Runaway Bride > Voyage of the Damned. Easily.

    #80829
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    > This is true for me as well, unfortunately. Still, that TRAILER? either we?re in for a fucking great last six episodes, or I?m going to be in for the biggest disappointment of my ENTIRE LIFE.

    Indeed. Someone on Another Forum made a good point the other day. They said that when an episode is a top quality writing wise then everything steps up a level or two. The direction, the acting, the music – everything. I have a feeling that’s what we’ll see. I’m so excited about Moffatt’s episodes I think I might wee myself.

    Also:

    The Christmas Invasion > The Runaway Bride > Voyage of the Damned

    Like you say, easy, that one. Right after Voyage of the Damned I was sure it was my favourite, but it REALLY suffered on repeat viewings.

    #80830
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    > (apart from Mark Gatiss performance in Lazarus which I don?t remember being brilliant)

    There’s just something about Gatiss that makes me happy, I guess. He’s like Stephen Fry in the way he could read out the phonebook and I’d be transfixed. He’s got a way about him that I love.

    #80831
    John Hoare
    Participant

    I want him to write more Who. Even if people didn’t like The Idiot’s Lantern, most people love The Unquiet Dead, don’t they?

    And when the hell is Rob Shearman coming back?

    #80832
    Ridley
    Participant
    #80833
    Andrew
    Participant

    The Runaway Bride > The Christmas Invasion > Voyage of the Damned

    Oh yes. Deal with it!

    > Right after Voyage of the Damned I was sure it was my favourite, but it REALLY suffered on repeat viewings.

    To be fair I think this is the curse of disaster movies. The Poseidon Adventure (or its remake), Towering Inferno…Voyage worked really, really hard to be like them, and ended up cursed with the same problem – that they’re essentially shallow endeavors. Entertaining the first time, but when the tension is in survival/not, once you know who dies, who lives, how each problem is solved, and where the surprises come from, there’s not a lot left.

    #80835
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    MY TURN.

    * Rose > Smith & Jones > New Earth > Partners in Crime
    * The End of the World > The Shakespeare Code > Tooth & Claw > The Fires of Pompeii
    * Gridlock > School Reunion > The Unquiet Dead > Planet of the Ood
    * Slitheen = Cybermen = Daleks = Sontarans (I genuinely can’t choose between these at all! They’re all fun but deeply flawed. I like and hate them all equally.)
    * Dalek = Girl in the Fireplace > The Lazarus Experiment > The Doctor?s Daughter
    * The Long Game > The Idiot?s Lantern > 42 > The Unicorn and the Wasp

    * The Empty Child Dances = Human of Blood > The Impossible Pit (but all three are ace)
    * Father?s Day = Blink > Love & Monsters
    * Utopia > Boom Town > Fear Her (by about three billion miles)
    * Bad Ways > Army of Doomsday > The Sound of Timelords (but all three are ace)

    * The Christmas Invasion > Voyage of the Damned > The Runaway Bride

    #80837
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    * Rose > Smith & Jones >>>> Partners in Crime >>> New Earth
    * The Shakespeare Code > The End of the World > Tooth & Claw > The Fires of Pompeii
    * Gridlock > School Reunion > The Unquiet Dead > Planet of the Ood
    * Slitheen > Cybermen > Daleks > Sontarans
    * Girl in the Fireplace > Dalek (ooh, but it’s close) >>>>>>>> Lazarus > Doctor’s Daughter
    Dalek = Girl in the Fireplace > The Lazarus Experiment > The Doctor?s Daughter
    * The Long Game > The Unicorn and the Wasp > The Idiot?s Lantern >>>> 42 (by far the worst position of the series, this)
    * The Empty Child Dances > Human of Blood > The Impossible Pit (as with everyone else, there’s not been a foot put wrong on these)
    * Blink > Father’s Day > Love & Monsters
    * Utopia >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Boom Town >>>>>>>>>>> Fear Her
    * Bad Ways > Army of Doomsday > The Sound of Timelords (and not much to choose between them, Sound of Timelords loses out through a poor second half)

    * The Christmas Invasion >>>>>>>>>>> The Runaway Bride >>>> Voyage of the Damned United

    #80838
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Wow. I didn’t realise each season had such a rigid formula. And what’s bizarre is that the quality of the numbered episode seems to be, mostly, consistent year to year).

    Not that I’m any authority on Doctor Who, but here we go.

    * Smith and Jones > Rose = New Earth = Partners in Crime (1, 2 and 4 being rubbish)
    * The Fires of Pompeii >> The Shakespeare Code > The End of the World > Tooth & Claw
    * The Unquiet Dead > School Reunion > Planet of the Ood > Gridlock
    * Sontarans > Slitheen = Cybermen = Daleks (all pretty much awful)
    * Girl in the Fireplace >> Dalek > The Doctor’s Daughter > The Lazarus Experiment
    * The Unicorn and the Wasp > The Long Game > The Idiot?s Lantern > 42 (don’t think I’ve seen The Long Game since broadcast, mind)
    * Human of Blood > The Impossible Pit > The Empty Child Dances (All great)
    * Blink >>>>>> Father’s Day > Love and Monsters
    * Utopia > Boom Town >>>>> Fear Her (the final ten minutes of Utopia are awesome)
    * Bad Ways >>>> Army of Doomsday > The Sound of Timelords (third was such a let down)

    * The Christmas Invasion > Voyage of the Damned > The Runaway Bride

    #80848

    Your Nan > Your Mum

    #80851
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Daddy > Chips

    #80852
    John Hoare
    Participant

    It’s interesting what people are saying about Voyage of the Damned not standing up to rewatching – I wasn’t that keen on it first time round, and I was obviously in a good mood because it was Christmas. Maybe I wasn’t drunk enough.

    Frankly, TNG did the same idea better in Disaster. And it had better jokes, too.

    #80853
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    Oh, also:

    Time Crash > 2005 CiN mini-episode

    #80857
    Andrew
    Participant

    Time Crash > 2005 CiN mini-episode >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dimensions in Time

    #80859
    John Hoare
    Participant

    I CANNOT WAIT UNTIL SATURDAY.

    #80865
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Other weekdays are available.

    #80866
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Stupid series four (and advance word) has made me worried that this year’s Moffat won’t be as good as the previous years. Or indeed as good as the previous years’ “adult two-parters”. Sigh.

    #80867
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    Briefly reading DWM whilst pooing this morning, Midnight looks like it could be a surprise hit. It appears to be the Who equivalent of Marooned (or rather, an updated version of Edge of Destruction mixed with The Deadly Assassin) and, crucially, Catherine Tate is only in it for about thirty seconds.

    #80868
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Hmm, interesting. And if “Turn Left” does what it looks like it might be doing, it could turn out to be rather genius as well.

    #80895
    pfm
    Participant

    Moffat’s gonna hit it out of the park (ooh, that’s American sounding, isn’t it?) again, I’m damned sure of that. Getting Euros Lyn back for the first time since the fucking Runaway Bride is a fucking stroke of genius too. I wonder if Moffat actually requested his return (the last thing I remember seeing his name on was the Billy Goat episode of that fairy tale thing which Jeremy Dyson – of The League Of Fucking Gentlemen wrote and Bernard Hill was in it doing a funny voice).

    Here is a fact – SERIES 4 HAS BEEN SUB-PAR SO FAR.
    Here is another fact – SERIES 3 WAS HARDLY ANY BETTER AT THIS STAGE
    Here is the third in this zany, outrageous series of facts – TOO MANY PEOPLE HAVE FORGOTTEN HOW GOOD THE OLDER EPISODES WERE (E.G. THE END OF THE WORLD, THE IMPOSSIBLE PLANET) AND SO ARE JUST ACCEPTING SHIT WRITTEN AND DIRECTED BY HACKS AS THOUGH IT’S THE NORM

    Here is the fourth and most important fact, something that will have you reeling more than when you find out (if you haven’t already) who is in the coffin on Lost –

    MY SHIT-CAKED BUTTOCK HAIR > YOUR FACE

    #80897
    ChrisM
    Participant

    What a beautiful image. Makes me feel quite spiritual.

    Thank God for the helmet then. I was thinking of taking it off, but in retrospect, I think it would be best where it is.

    #80902
    John Hoare
    Participant

    THAT IS HOW YOU MAKE DOCTOR WHO KTHXBYE.

    #80904
    Rad
    Participant

    4/5. A bit slow in places and the shadow idea (which isn’t that original) wasn’t that well executed in my opinion. Still, they implied Catherine Tate’s death so it’s much closer to 5 than 3.

    #80905
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    This was about 12 million out of 5.

    #80906
    John Hoare
    Participant

    That wasn’t slow, that was building tension!

    God, SO much to enjoy, and so many mysteries that I have no idea what they’re going to do with. And so many standout moments. Best episode since The Sound of Drums for me, easily.

    #80907
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Just about to head out so will pop back to discuss this when I have more time, but I thought it was a corker. Plenty of mysteries and lots to be explained next week.

    Touches of TGITF (the little girl seeing glimpses of another world) and Blink (the Doctor meeting someone after they’ve already met him).

    Great stuff. Not quite up to the standards of the episodes above, but a return to form. When Doctor Who is good…It’s very, very good. And Steven Moffatt is usually the man responsible.

    The Doctor’s song is ending : River Song. Coincidence?

    #80908
    John Hoare
    Participant

    Touches of TGITF (the little girl seeing glimpses of another world) and Blink (the Doctor meeting someone after they?ve already met him).

    I have to say, if there’s ONE criticism of the episode, it’s that occasionally it felt a bit TOO much like a combination of those two episodes. Not nearly enough to annoy, mind.

    Also – the Library appears to be using my Apple keyboard. Which reminds me of seeing my BBC Micro keyboard in 80s Who, and Body Swap

    #80910
    John Hoare
    Participant

    I was just thinking that we haven’t had much from RTD this year – just the RUBBISH Partners In Crime… and then I just checked. I didn’t realise the last four episodes of the series are by him!

    This ep was the beginning of the turnaround for the series for me, I’m sure. I love Moffatt to bits, but I also love RTD doing end-of-season stuff. And if Love & Monsters is anything to go by, I’m going to love his Doctor-lite ep as well.

    It’s going to be brilliant, or… I’ll do something very complicated.

    #80917
    ChrisM
    Participant

    Indeed so far so good.

    It’s interesting how Moffat can take everyday things in our world, (statues, shadows etc) and make a scary alien threat out of it. Stuff that actually sounds daft, yet somehow really works. In fact possibly works because these are things we have seen in our world… twisted somehow. And not by much either.

    Blink was particularly effective for me as I actually had a fear of statues as a kid. (It’s something about those stone faces and those hard empty eyes.) And who isn’t afraid of the dark? True the shadow stuff wasn’t that original, but this take on it, parasitic organisms who devour you to the bone… interesting stuff.

    And what about the creepy chip stuff? I don’t really get the point of a person’s memory engrams being stored in your communications equipment (think I’ve got that right) but in terms of mixing the eerie with a sense of sadness… it worked.

    By the way, I’ve got my theory as to what’s happening with the girl. Not sure I should say it in case I end up spoiling things (if I turn out to be right. It’s not that much of a stretch though.)

    #80918
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Spot on. Wonderful. So many great moments (how fucking great was the bit where Colin Salmon turned round and said NOTHING IS REAL KTHXBYE), so many inherent childhood fears tapped into (when he said about the dust in sunlight, I almost applauded), and more ideas in 45 minutes than in an entire series of eps written by anyone other than himself and Rusty (stuff like the “ghost” thing – what a wonderful idea, and instead of building an ep around it, it’s just part of the tapestry).

    And yeah, let’s share theories about River. Mine is that she’s his wife, she’s going to die at the end of this story (so that the first time he meets her is the last time she meets him), but we’ll see her again (and she raises all sorts of questions about when we can be allowed to see DT regenerate). I reckon that when writing this, Moff will already have known he was taking over – and he’s setting up things to be brought back in his own run. Remember, too, that he was apparently the one that asked for Jenny to be kept alive…

    #80919
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Oh, and incidentally – Rachel went to school with Tallulah Riley…

    #80920
    ChrisM
    Participant

    I wondered about The Doctor’s regeneration on following River’s comments too. She suggests he is a lot younger than when she knew. Does this mean that Tenant will remain as the Doctor for longer than has been suggested?

    On the other hand, she sent him the message on his psychic paper (wonder how she managed that one by the way?) so she was expecting him to turn up. Hence she might still have known him in another incarnation. You’ll notice that she recognized him as younger, particularly by looking in his eyes which might support the ‘other incarnation’ idea. Otherwise, surely it would have been obvious when they first met that he was younger than the doctor she knew, as I understand the doctor does age like we do, albeit probably at a slower rate. (I think his first incarnation was a few centuries old wasn’t he?)

    Interesting thoughtful stuff. I’m not too keen on the romantic implications though (not sure how that fits the Doctor’s character, although he has had a romantic fling before with Madame De Pompadour and of course his late wife) but she is an interesting character and great actress. (Didn’t she play a prostitute character in a victorian setting a short while back? I forget the name of the character/show.)

    She’s also one of those older women who retains a vivacious and dare I say ‘cor!’ quality. (Not that that’s the most important thing…)

    #80924
    ChrisM
    Participant
    #80925
    Ridley
    Participant

    Your eyes can deceive you. Don’t trust them.

    #80930
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    >I?m not too keen on the romantic implications though (not sure how that fits the Doctor?s character, although he has had a romantic fling before with Madame De Pompadour and of course his late wife)

    While I don’t think romance should be a defining aspect of the show, I really hate the suggestion that the Doctor should somehow be completely free of it or should be portrayed as asexual. Let’s not forget that the absolute FIRST thing we ever find out about him is that he’s a grandfather. And while I’d hate to see any kind of overt romance with a companion, I think TGITF showed perfectly how you can do a romance in the context of the show. So I’d trust Moffat to do it again, frankly ;-)

    >but she is an interesting character and great actress. (Didn?t she play a prostitute character in a victorian setting a short while back? I forget the name of the character/show.)

    Moll Flanders was the name of both. Although it’s Restoration, not Victorian ;-) (couple of hundred years older…)

    #80931
    Tanya Jones
    Participant

    > Oh, and incidentally – Rachel went to school with Tallulah Riley?

    I’ve always thought a sign of getting older was when pop stars or up and coming actors are your age or younger! I wasn’t surprised she was called Tallulah; only a girl that pretty could get away with it. She could rival Angelina Jolie with those lips.

    Anyway, great episode, fantastic nasty deaths, I *heart* Steven Moffat.

    #80936
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    >I?ve always thought a sign of getting older was when pop stars or up and coming actors are your age or younger!

    Well, Rach was actually a couple of years above her – but she was in her sister’s year…

    #80937
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    While I don?t think romance should be a defining aspect of the show, I really hate the suggestion that the Doctor should somehow be completely free of it or should be portrayed as asexual. Let?s not forget that the absolute FIRST thing we ever find out about him is that he?s a grandfather. And while I?d hate to see any kind of overt romance with a companion, I think TGITF showed perfectly how you can do a romance in the context of the show.

    This.

    In my head, the Doctor can have a relationship/snog/shag/marriage/whatever with anyone he wants, just not his companions. That would be him abusing a position of trust, and the role of the companion is something completely different altogether.

    #80940
    pfm
    Participant

    Well I’m totally convinced that RTD is going to have the Doctor get together properly with Rose. OK, she isn’t his companion anymore, but if she was they would have got it on eventually without a doubt. There comes a point where they’re no longer just Doctor and companion but…potential fuck buddies.

    Rose’s final appearance (whenever that may be…) is going to end with her hand over her stomach, suggesting she is pregnant with the Doctor’s child. You know it.

    Btw Silence In The Library was excellent all-round. Tennant acting like he cares again, excellent guest performances, some of the best effects shots we’ve seen so far in all 4 series’ (the library exteriors!). They struggled to make the shadows effective though. Also, I still don’t understand why they kept using the skull in the space helmet in the promotion for the episode. That should have been a cool moment but everyone knew it was coming!

    Moffat is a genius. Fact.

    #80944
    ChrisM
    Participant

    >Moll Flanders was the name of both. Although it?s Restoration, not Victorian ;-) (couple of hundred years older?)

    Ah yes, that’s the one. It was one of those ‘tip of the toungue/fingers names. And silly me with the dates. Trust me to mentally lump all those olde period later than the middle ages under Victorian. (Ok, that’s a bit of an exaggeration, my memory was vague of the programme was vague, I couldn’t quite remember the setting.)

    And point taken concerning Doctor and romance (I did mention his marriage etc though.) As long as they don’t make a big thing of it, which I doubt they’ll do anyway.

    By the way, did you notice the sonic screwdriver gag? It’s wood, it won’t work! (Although they found a way of making it work.) Seems they are taking into account criticisms concerning the screwdriver.

    I didn’t have much of a problem with it being used that way mind. Using it as a communication/scanning device seemed a bit over the top though. Ok, sound waves could be used that way, but it seems the latest make of the screwdriver has integrated tricorder/psi-scan abilities too. I wouldn’t mind if he just had another gadget that dealt with that stuff. I’m sure there are plenty of odds and ends in the storage of the Tardis. Or those voluminous timelord pockets.

    #80947
    John Hoare
    Participant

    Has it ever been the case that we don’t officially know the name of the first episode of the series finale at this point?

    (I don’t know it unofficially yet either, mind you – is it out there? I’ve been avoiding spoilers…)

    #80948
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    There’s fan speculation out there, but I doubt any of it will turn out to be real. No, it’s never been the case before. I think it’s ridiculous, frankly – if the title’s “too spoilery”, then why not bloody change it to something that isn’t?

    #80949
    John Hoare
    Participant

    It probably is a bit ridiculous… but I can’t deny that not knowing it is working me up to fever pitch. Especially given the title of the last episode!

    #80952
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    I seem to remember ‘Bad Wolf’ being hidden for a while into the airing of the series.

    #80954
    pfm
    Participant

    I think they’re just winding the fans up by not revealing it yet. I would have liked them to have used ‘Davros’ somewhere, simply because his name has never appeared in a TV series title, but I think they’ve already said neither ‘Davros’ or ‘Daleks’ have been used.

    I bet it’s called something like ‘The Shadow Proclamation’ or ‘The Medusa Cascade’.

    #80958

    My bet is “Doctor gets Randy”

    #80964
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    It’ll have Skaro in the title, I bet you.

    #80977
    John Hoare
    Participant

    Is your name Holly?

    #80980
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Just watched SITL again. I don’t usually watch an episode again so soon after its airing (and don’t bother with the majority) but thought I’d try and figure out what the hell is going on.

    Not a clue. Still great though.

    #80983
    Danny Stephenson
    Keymaster

    Is your name Holly?

    “Is your name Holly?”

    #80988
    pfm
    Participant

    If you knew what was going on what would be the point in the second part? I say thank god there’s actually some mystery and that we, for once, give a toss about it, unlike the Sontaran 2-parter which I couldn’t have given several tosses over. Maybe if they’d shown us better shots of the naked Martha clone in that pool…

    That sums up this series for me, I couldn’t give a shit about what’s happening. I’m not one of those going ‘OMG ROSE just appeared on the Tardis screen! What could it mean???’ And the contained episode stories have bored me to death (the Pompeii episode aside, which was at least semi-interesting. James Moran definitely needs to return in series 5 to have another bash at an ep). They keep failing to grasp the concept of entertaining a viewer on more than a superficial, on-the-surface only fashion. Moffat knows how to do it, but he shouldn’t be the only one in an entire series. RTD’s final four really have a LOT to do to convince me the show isn’t generally in a state of disarray (again, Moffat aside).

    #80991
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    If you’re not interested in the show, why are you watching it?

    #80992
    pfm
    Participant

    Because at the very least it gives my cock a rest for 44 minutes. That is until I remember that Catherine Tate has breasts. Even my ladyfriend likes them (considering she goes out with me you might say she’s a big fan of tits…).

    #80993
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    You could watch Ready Steady Cook instead. Give your cock a rest by watching another one talk to people who are JUST TRYING TO COOK GODDAMIT AINSLEY I AM TRYING TO PEEL THESE SPUDS AND YOU ARE IN MY PERSONAL SPACE FUCK RIGHT OFF.

    #80997
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >If you knew what was going on what would be the point in the second part?

    I knew exactly what was going on in the first part of the Sontaran two-parter. Badly-written nonsense…but I still watched Part 2.

    Seriously, though. There’s so many questions from SITL that it will be quite an achievement if the entire 45 minutes of part 2 is not dedicated to exposition. You expect a few mysteries from Moffatt, but lets see:

    1)Little girl / security camera with conscious
    2)River Song (who is she?)
    3)What’s in the book?
    4)What’s happened to Donna?
    5)What does “saved” mean?

    …I could go on.

    In other news, according to a few websites, DT is dating Georgia Moffet. Jammy git.

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