The Doctor Who Spoilers Thread – Part II

[John Hoare]

This thread continues this discussion. The topic was split because the system was running out of memory. Bastards.

Topic

[Somebody]

> I wondered how many people would think that, if they didn?t know that it was only at the last minute that he?d written it?

Wait… didn’t he say he keeps “three or four” scripts in a drawer for just such an eventuality?

Notice how the companion is sidelined, and forget about Turn Left for a moment. It wouldn’t take much to rewrite Donna’s brief scenes for Rose, or Martha…

[Seb Patrick]

Well, alright then… let’s say “at the last minute that he’d put it into the series”. The point about it not linking up with the main arc still stands ;-)

You may be on to something there, though, as the quality and sharpness of the script certainly didn’t feel like a rush-job. That was a proper piece of human drama that had had a lot of thought put into its execution, even while the ideas were left deliberately vague.

[Ben Paddon]

In an attempt to Learn French While He Slept gone awry, Andrew is now only capable of saying…
(In the same way Utopia is about bringing Jack and the Master back, alongside a ?save the humans? plot – it?s not really part one of the final story.)

Except that the entire “Utopia” thing – the promise of a continued existence in dying Universe – directly led to the creation of the Toclafane, which is a major plotpoint of The Sound Of Drums and The Last Of The Time Lords.

[Andrew]

> Except that the entire ?Utopia? thing – the promise of a continued existence in dying Universe – directly led to the creation of the Toclafane, which is a major plotpoint of The Sound Of Drums and The Last Of The Time Lords.

Right. But that’s like saying the series two finale is the end of a four-parter with the cybermen story. Continuing threads are to be expected in a series, and you COULD have put episodes between Utopia and the finale, more or less…but NOT between Sound of Drums and Last of the Time Lords.

[Jonathan Capps]

> but NOT between Sound of Drums and Last of the Time Lords.

Well, apart from lots of episodes covering the year under The Master’s control ;)

[Somebody]

Andrew:
…you COULD have put episodes between Utopia and the finale, more or less?

Uh-huh? Tardisless episodes, of course…

[Andrew]

> Well, apart from lots of episodes covering the year under The Master?s control ;)

Fair point. But…bah, you know what I mean!

> Uh-huh? Tardisless episodes, of course?

cf The Sontaran Experiment and Genesis of the Daleks. Thanks.

[Seb Patrick]

Utopia had a “to be continued”, though, and Sound of Drums continued DIRECTLY from it (where would you put episodes between them? One ends with them about to be got by the Futurekind. The other begins with them escaping the Futurekind and jumping back to Earth). It’s definitely a three-parter, no question about it. It’s just that we were sold a dummy – and, as Julian so memorably put it, we were completely satisfied with the price negotiated.

[Andrew]

> where would you put episodes between them? One ends with them about to be got by the Futurekind. The other begins with them escaping the Futurekind and jumping back to Earth

To repeat myself: “Bah, you know what I mean!” :-)

Of course they literally fit together. So does the end of The Poison Sky to the start of The Doctor’s Daughter. But with minimal rewrite, Utopia COULD have happened mid-season. (And you could put ‘to be continued’ at the end of every new Who story if you really wanted to.)

You know how Invasion of Time is a six parter, but really a four-part story and then a two-part story? I dunno, Utopia feels like the teaser at the start of a Bond or an Indy movie. It’s a set-up story about a different villain and a different problem taking place on a different world. But with parallel-cybermen-style set-up.

I’m not saying it’s definitely NOT a three-part story, I’m just saying you can see it a couple of ways – and that either way, it informs the possible understanding of how Turn Left may fit in.

[ChrisM]

Bah, we know what you mean. (Mustn’t forget the->) :-)

Just kidding. Must’ve slipped into ‘smart-ass’ mode for a moment there. Possibly without the ‘smart’ bit. Damn these diodes…

Purely from what I’ve seen of the little preview I reckon the next episode will be something like that. I.e. a different monster and story (to the finale), but leading pretty quickly into the finale episodes, connected in continuity surely, but probably just by Rose and of course the time-frame (from the characters’ and viewers’ point of view I mean, not timeline the events occur.)

Course if the next episode is as ‘Doctor-light’ (or ‘lite’ as people seem to like to spell it…grrrr) as it looks, then there could be an overlap of time from different perspectives. In which case the next episode could be the equivalent of Martha mucking about with the Gaff (or whatever the fishy-folk were called.) but still separate stories in their own right. (Parallel events I mean, that wasn’t a judgment on the Martha section of Doctor’s Daughter.)

Anyway, just a couple of days to go now…

[Andrew]

Let’s talk for a moment about the Turn Left clip posted on the BBC Who site right now…

I get the marketing logic in showing ‘the Doctor is dead’ as a lead-in. Very enticing. But it’s a bit of a mistake otherwise.

Firstly – and SPOILERS HERE! – there’s a line of dialogue right up front that tells you exactly what’s really going on, and sucks all the concern out of the thing. “Big red spider”, “flood” – gotcha.

Added to which, there’s a very poor ADR line whacked in there saying “It must have happened to fast for him to regenerate”. Which is so blatantly a last-minute fix that…well, it makes me worry about how under-thought the rest of the thing might be. Especially when the spoiler above puts us on fairly well-worn, been-here-before SF territory.

I’ve never been and RTD nay-sayer, and I suspect I’ll still enjoy the ep, but I think that’s a really duff clip choice. Worse, in many ways, than the usual week-early monster reveals, because it’s LESSENED my anticipation.

[Seb Patrick]

I’ve heard rumours about all the knock-on effects of what happens, though, and it sounds pretty good fun.

I don’t think there was ever any concern about “OMG THE DOCTOR’S DEAD!” once you have any kind of inkling what the story’s about. Like he’s NOT going to be back for the finale? Come on…

[Andrew]

> I?ve heard rumours about all the knock-on effects of what happens, though, and it sounds pretty good fun.

Well, as I say, I don’t expect the episode to be poor. Just that the clip choice is a mistake.

> Like he?s NOT going to be back for the finale? Come on?

Well sure, but the WAY that gets resolved…well, I was curious as to how that would work. Now that one clip, when combined with the title, has already answered the question they’re clearly intending to use as a tease. In one fell swoop, they’ve taken the teaser they had and neutralised it.

[pfm]

Watching that clip, can I just say again how fucking (and that’s swearing) great it is to have the ‘President Flavia’ theme back in the series. That won’t be the Doctor on the stretcher.

Incidentally, my theory for the end of the series is that Donna ends up swapping places with Rose, she’s in the parallel world. But she will CHOOSE to do it as some kind of mad gesture for the Doctor.

[Andrew]

> That won?t be the Doctor on the stretcher.

I take back everything I said. Apparently the clip’s giving away nothing…

[Pete Part Three]

It doesn’t look like either the brown suit or the blue suit. It can’t be him!!

I don’t think the clip is THAT bad. But the line “It must have happened too fast for him to regenerate” is officially awful.

[Jonathan Capps]

Well, they *are* setting up regeneration at a conscious choice n the new series where as before it was pretty ambiguous. And, you know, conscious choice is a bit hard when you’ve been deaded in a split second. its a good way of bringing some peril to the character.

I’m sure the ADR is poor, but the line and idea behind it isn’t so much.

[Pete Part Three]

>Well, they *are* setting up regeneration at a conscious choice n the new series where as before it was pretty ambiguous.

Does this actually contradict the original series? From what I remember, 5 seemed pretty uncertain about whether he would regenerate.

[Ben Paddon]

performingmonkey says things!
That won?t be the Doctor on the stretcher.

Given some of the info I’ve been privy to, it seems very likely that the occupant of the stretcher is indeed the Doctor. There’s also a lot of speculation in fan circles that the events of this episode will tie in to the Sarah Jane Adventures serial “Whatever Happened To Sarah Jane?”, which doesn’t seem entirely unlikely but I shall refrain from comment until the episode has aired.

[Seb Patrick]

Does this actually contradict the original series? From what I remember, 5 seemed pretty uncertain about whether he would regenerate.

I don’t know about onscreen, but spinoff media has always tended to state that you have to trigger a regeneration mentally. So if you know you’re dying, you can do it – for example, in The Infinity Doctors, some Time Lords get murdered by having both their hearts stabbed simultaneously, so they don’t get a chance to regenerate. And RTD certainly seemed to be following up this idea with what he did with the Master, I think.

How this reconciles with the 7/8 regeneration, though, I wouldn’t care to speculate…

[Andrew]

So that whole ‘he’s a parallel Doctor’ thing ISN’T totally blown by the clip, then?

Ah, if not, I guess I’ve ruined everybody’s evening…

Good. Don’t see why I should be the only miserable fucker out there.

[Danny Stephenson]

Who told you?

[pfm]

> There?s also a lot of speculation in fan circles that the events of this episode will tie in to the Sarah Jane Adventures serial ?Whatever Happened To Sarah Jane??

Probably Davros/Dalek Caan/the Daleks in general use the Trickster (or something like him) to fuck with spacetime and somehow a parallel Doctor is created. We will be led to believe that the parallel Doctor (‘Bizarro Doctor’??) was the one who was killed by the ‘red spider’ but in fact it WAS our Doctor and he ISN’T dead, he wakes up in the ambulance later on, with the Time Lord-y stuff coming out of his mouth like when Jennie woke up.

Donna and everyone else will think Bizarro Doctor is their Doctor. It’s Bizarro who gets exterminated by a Dalek at the end of episode 12 but they all think their Doctor is now dead so they cry and stuff then all band together like the slick motherfuckers they are to defeat Davros. They are all about to be exterminated by the red Supreme Dalek when Ten comes smashing into the room…with K9!! Rose gets her vag out and proceeds to frig herself off amid the chaos around her.

[Seb Patrick]

Or, alternatively, “Turn Left” is about what would have happened if Donna hadn’t met the Doctor, and is set in a parallel universe that spins off from that event, and all parallel universes are crashing into one-another and that’s what the “Medusa Cascade” is.

S’my guess, anyway.

[Andrew]

> Or, alternatively, ?Turn Left? is about what would have happened if Donna hadn?t met the Doctor

See, I thought, yeah, the clip made this entirely blatant – Donna not being with the Doctor during the ‘red spider’ events of Runaway Bride. (Hang on, is that possible given that her arrival triggered his involvement?!) But apparently not!

[Michael Warren]

Very spoilery pics from “The Stolen Earth” have emerged:

http://www.ranger-retrocenter.com/misc/stolen_earth_pic6.jpg

(there are fifteen pictures, just replace the digit in the file name with 1 – 15)

[Seb Patrick]

#4 and #6 are BRILLIANT. I couldn’t get #13, though?

BBC press release for Journey’s End has gone up. First official BBC confirmation of Davros…

[Ian Symes]

They’ve been pretty slack with the old spoiler leaks this year. This time last year, we didn’t even know for sure that it *was* The Master in the finale, it was only rumours and speculation. Which is what made Utopia so good to watch; we were only *just* ahead of the characters in figuring it all out. Now we know fucking everything about the last three episodes already. What a pisser.

[Michael Warren]

>I couldn?t get #13, though?

I just checked, and it’s not in the list I got these from, either. That is odd. I wonder what it was?

[pfm]

Yeah we didn’t know for sure about the Master until the end of Utopia. That was a much easier secret to keep though because Simm was always mentioned as playing Saxon, not The Master. Just as Jacobi was always the Professor and the regeneration scene was kept secret (despite the strong rumour for months that Jacobi would regenerate into Simm there was no proper confirmation).

I hope they still have one hidden surprise up their sleeve (now that we know these episodes aren’t really about the Time War as was perhaps hoped, there’s no chance of McGann/Eccleston or anything of equal monumentity). All this makes me regret looking at any spoilers, but even if I hadn’t there is just NO WAY I wouldn’t have known Davros was returning. When the pic appeared in The Sun I even had my dad on the phone to me banging on about it!

A Tennant/Eccleston/McGann special next year. With Sheridan Smith, Billie and Freema (Tate can’t return considering Donna will either die or be trapped). I’m not joking, I would have to watch that one in my boxers…

[ChrisM]

Donna Noble action figure.

Go on. You know you want one!

Quite a good likeness actually.

[Ben Paddon]

performingmonkey says words…
A Tennant/Eccleston/McGann special next year. With Sheridan Smith, Billie and Freema (Tate can?t return considering Donna will either die or be trapped). I?m not joking, I would have to watch that one in my boxers?

I seem to recall (but have been unable to source) Russel T Davies saying that one of the three specials next year is going to be “very fanwanky”, and there are some rumours floating around about Paul McGann being involved. We may well get a “Time War flashback”, or perhaps some kind of multi-Doctor story with the Eighth and Tenth Doctors.

[Pete Part Three]

Ben Paddon does that thing what he does…

We may well get a ?Time War flashback?, or perhaps some kind of multi-Doctor story with the Eighth and Tenth Doctors.

Some kind of acknowledgement of McGann’s contribution (aside from a picture in Journal of Impossible Things) would be kinda cool.

[Andrew]

> Some kind of acknowledgement of McGann?s contribution (aside from a picture in Journal of Impossible Things) would be kinda cool.

Indeed. While I’d like to see Eccleston and Tennant’s Doctors together – they seem to have more chance of interesting clashes than the arguably more similar eighth and tenth (though I’ve not seen any spin-offs, so I’m only going from The Movie – it feels incredibly unlikely that Eccleston would come back. Just as I never expect to see him in spin-off media.

I honestly think Time Crash is an absolute gem, and better than I remember any multi-Doctor story being. I’d happily see Davison return – age be damned. Moreover, it feels like this incarnation of the show can better handle the kind of ‘event television’ a meeting of Doctors needs to be.

[Ridley]

More Raston Robot. :D

I once thought Tom Baker should come back and have him turn out to be The Master.

(I should point out my grip on old series Who is very loose)

[John Hoare]

I honestly think Time Crash is an absolute gem, and better than I remember any multi-Doctor story being. I?d happily see Davison return – age be damned.

Yep. Out of all the Doctors still alive and willing to be associated with the show, he’d be by far the best – you need someone that contrasts with Tennant’s Doctor, and also someone who matches him in acting ability. Davison is by far the best match.

I really hope they see Time Crash as a taster for a full episode – rather than as a “Oh, that would have been great as a full episode, but never mind – we’ve kinda done them two now…”

[Ben Paddon]

Ridley is prescient…
I once thought Tom Baker should come back and have him turn out to be The Master.

So did Tom Baker, funnily enough. He’d even been quoted as saying so. While I don’t doubt it would’ve been fun it would have annoyed the Hell out of anyone with any sort of interest in the shows continuity (or lack of one).

I’m convinced RTD wrote in the Jelly Baby thing in The Sound of Drums as a wink to Tom Baker’s expressed desire to play the Master.

[Smeg4Brains]

Is there anybody not in the next episode? We’ve even got the torchwood team. I think todays episode was a very good idea but it seems like its just setting up the main story in the next two episodes.

[Pete Part Three]

I preferred “Turn Left” when it was called “The Wish” and was part of Buffy’s third year. That episode had an actual story rather than serving as a trip down memory lane through RTD’s greatest shits (typo accidental, but actually quite accurate considering the episodes referenced).

Seriously, I was watching it 10 minutes behind broadcast time and was inclined to spin on throughout in search of a scene where SOMETHING happened, rather than a bunch of sequences about how lousy life would be without the Doctor (and the UK government committing genocide? Nice!).

And Horseface is back. And the Torchwood guys too.

Yay.

[Seb Patrick]

>Is there anybody not in the next episode?

Opening titles :

DAVID TENNANT

CATHERINE TATE

BILLIE PIPER

FREEMA AGYEMAN

JOHN BARROWMAN

ELISABETH SLADEN

THEM LOT OFF TORCHWOOD

… oh, shit, we’ve only got five minutes left. Oh, look, it’s Davros! Yay!

NEXT TIME…

[Smeg4Brains]

> And Horseface is back.

Gwen?

[Seb Patrick]

(joking aside, I genuinely think the opening titles will feature those names, in that order, up to and including Barrowman. Because all those people have had their names in it before, and that seems to be the “rule”. Sladen hasn’t, so she won’t this time.)

[Ridley]

THEM LOT OFF TORCHWOOD

Both of them.

That kid from the Sarah Jane thing was there too.

[Ian Symes]

Don’t forget Luke Smith and Harriet Jones!

[Pete Part Three]

>> And Horseface is back.

>Gwen?

Billie, actually. My automatic response to everyone raving about how good looking she is. I’m also inclined to call her nothing special in the acting department. She needs to be killed off pronto so there’s never any inclination to bring her back and make her over-shadow another series.

THIS FINALE IS SO MASSIVE WE NEED TO TRIPLE THE CAST LIST AND THEN STRUGGLE TO GIVE THEM EACH SOMETHING SUBSTANTIAL TO DO!!!

Utopia poos over this as far as lead-ins to the finale. And as for Doctor-lite episodes….let’s not even go there.

[Ridley]

Leeds?

[Pete Part Three]

“Oh, and can you get this thing off my back?”

“Well, you could try taking your coat off.”

[pfm]

*picks up flamethrower* *aims at Pete* *trips and accidentally engulfes ALL the Catherine-Tate-as-Donna haters, as well as Pete, oh and also Billie Piper’s dentist/surgeon, in searing flame*

I don’t think we’re worthy of RTD. It’s just a shame they didn’t have enough money to blow the Tardis apart like how he wanted during the time travel scene. I fucking LOVED the line about how Gwen and Ianto gave their lives to defeat the Sontarans and Jack was transported to the Sontaran homeworld! And on the news about Sarah Jane and the kids being killed!! Bad Wolf!!! Screw all you hating idiots.

Incidentally, even though this was a Tennant-lite episode I thought he perhaps stole the whole thing with his reaction to hearing ‘Bad Wolf’. Excellent. I can’t wait for him to face Davros and the Daleks!

[Pete Part Three]

Fan-fiction blah blah reset button zzzzz Bad wolf been done waffle waffle hope Jack gets raped by Sontarans big yawn.

[Smeg4Brains]

> hope Jack gets raped by Sontarans

I’m not sure it’d be rape

[Author]

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