Thoughts on the Series XII Flipside Cover?

[Renegade Rob]

Over this past weekend, I’ve been processing the reveal of the Series XII flipside cover. As someone who likes consistency but also wants each series to have their own identity, I’ve been trying to figure out how I feel about the color. The pale red bunkroom and pale blue Starbug cockpit made perfect sense for X and XI, but the fact that the Science Room for XII, despite being an obvious choice, still nags at me a bit, so I’ve created this post more as a sounding board to help me work out how I come down on this very important issue.

I really want each series to feel like it’s own distinct entity with its own identity, and up until now, they have. But let’s face it: the military blue Science Room XII cover is a little close to the ocean blue of the Starbug cockpit XI cover, so that’s 2 pale-blues in a row. Granted, they’re slightly different shades, with XII having more than a dash of light purple. But it’s the equivalent of making Series IV the officers Bunkroom and Series V the old III-V Science Room: same color scheme because of similar production design. If they had made XII yellow with the new Science Room at Yellow Alert, that would’ve been great. Or they could have, as I thought they might do, made XII pale-green with the Starbug 19 interior and echo the pattern of the original 6, so that a Series XIII cover would be even paler beige and so on.
As it is, two light blues in a row, leaves me a little cold.

But then I did some more thinking about the cover (What better way is there to spend a Sarurday night?), and the thought occurred that part of XII’s identity is the fact that it’s of a pair with XI. Thet were commissioned together, written together, share sets and even moved scenes, and were basically filmed together. This sort of was one long series split over two, more than possible any pair of series before. Now true, XII is, give or take a Timewave, way better than XI overall, as almost certainly it built off the momentum established by XI to be more bold and confident.

In that light, it makes some deal of sense to have XI and XII be similar colors, because much of their identity is the fact that they’re intrinsically linked. Like those weird quasi-two-parters from Series 9 of Doctor Who. So I think I’m coming down on the side of “I get it and can live with it” but would have preferred something a little more distinct.

Thoughts?

Topic

[Dave]

The series between series I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII and series X, XI, XII is definitely not series IX, ok? I can’t believe anyone would be foolish enough to think that it was.

[flanl3]

Y’know Windows? Here’s a little story for you: a few years ago, around 2012 I think, a new version of Windows was released, and it was called Windows 8. A few years later, in 2015, a different version of Windows was released, they called it Windows 10. In between those two, only one main version of Windows was released. Theymust have called it Windows 9, right?

Wrong. It was Windows 8.1.

Have you ever heard of iPhone? I suppose you might have heard of iPhone. This year, they announced three separate goddamn iPhones. One was the iPhone 8, and another was the iPhone X (ten). If you announce 8, X, and another, you’d suppose that other would be the iPhone Nine, right? It always gets listed in the order of 8, the other one, X. It has to be Nine in some form, right?

Wrong, it’s the iPhone 8 Plus.

There’s this thing, it’s called an Xbox. Some of you have probably heard of it. Back in 2005, they came out with an Xbox that they called the Xbox 360. Then, in 2013, there was a new Xbox that they called the Xbox One. This year, they’ve come out with a new one. Well, technically, it’s a massive revision of the Xbox One, but it’s nearly one all on its own. I could compare it to the Game Boy Color, not entirely different from the Game Boy, but different enough. Anyways, you’d expect Xbox to follow the pattern and either call it the Xbox -358 or maybe the Xbox -178.5, either as a full next Xbox or maybe halfway along, to follow the pattern of decreasing by 359. But you know what they called it?

Xbox One X.

Xbox I X.

Xbox IX.

Tell me again how sure you are that nine is the one that comes between eight and ten.

[Ben Saunders]

Xbox XI is just a souped up Xbox One, not a new installment in the Xbox franchise.

They had to skip Windows 9 because of all the legacy programs that just look for the first number of the OS version in code, for example they’d see Win95 or Win98 and only see Win9x.

Apple are stupid.

[Moonlight]

They had to skip Windows 9 because of all the legacy programs that just look for the first number of the OS version in code, for example they’d see Win95 or Win98 and only see Win9x.

That is truly hilarious and I’d expect no less from Windows.

KyoSo I get your point but it shouldn’t matter, Netflix or whoever will put it in the chronological right place regardless.

Not if they were listing it as a separate entity called Red Dwarf: Back to Earth rather than as the ninth series of Red Dwarf. That’s something I could easily have seen happening when it was initially released, before there was any sign of a tenth series. Which is what my point was, about not designating the special as its own separate show on the listing the way they do with other specials.

Seeing as how we’ve dug up the Series IX debate, I think we should definitely argue about Hyperdrive again. I liked it when I was 14.

[flanl3]

Xbox XI is just a souped up Xbox One, not a new installment in the Xbox franchise.

I’m assuming you mean IX, but are you telling me that Red Dwarf IX is…

…Red Dwarf I Remastered?

[Renegade Rob]

Lister reads off the literal cover of BTE which even on the physical copy IRL says it takes place after “series ten.” And that’s clearly bullshit because Series X is definitely continuing off plot strands established in BTE, like Kochanski being alive and all that. Which leads to my conclusion:

The post-VIII series numbering of the BTE Earth universe do not correspond to “our series.” As funny as it might be to skip series IX, the reference to a “series ten” clearly reveals a separate continuity of series in that universe. So anyone saying IX already happened in the special can’t really be referring to a real series in “our” universe and are unreliable evidence of BTE being separate from IX.

For “our” purposes, i.e. Real People, BTE is Series IX, as the ninth series produced and between VIII and X.

[Ben Saunders]

>Nick Frost and Miranda Hart as leads
Oh dear.

[International Debris]

As funny as it might be to skip series IX, the reference to a “series ten” clearly reveals a separate continuity of series in that universe.

Imagine if Doug had only written in a reference to series 9 in BtE, and then carried on with 10, that would have been the most wonderfully meta thing about the whole story.

I’m sure he said in an interview that he won’t be doing a series 9, but might be doing a 10, “which makes sense if you watch Back to Earth” or something. Which annoyed me as it makes no more sense then.

[flanl3]

I mean, I do think they called Series IX “the best yet” while they did not call Series X “the best yet”

[Ben Saunders]

All they say is Back to Earth happens after Series Ten, which I guess is possible, they just de-age a little at some point and then re-age again

[Seb Patrick]

>If we’re taking word of the author, ‘Liberation’ is the first Divine Comedy album

It is. Fanfare for the Common Muse is an album by a different band that also happens to be called The Divine Comedy and also happens to have Neil Hannon as one of its members.

[Ben Saunders]

Just like how the last blink-182 release was Dogs Eating Dogs in 2012, and the fact that there is a more recent album out called California, also by a band calling themselves blink-182, doesn’t change that fact. And all of the members of Weezer died in 2002, etc.

[Dave]

Actually Rivers Cuomo just kicked Death in the nuts when he came for him.

[Lily]

Imagine if Doug had only written in a reference to series 9 in BtE, and then carried on with 10, that would have been the most wonderfully meta thing about the whole story.

You mean like “That’s Dave Lister’s bath from season 9. Best season ever if you ask me. Awesome season, best by miles. You were in that remember, when Kyten ran in and told you that Kochanski had been sucked out of an airlock”

Strange that it’s season and not series though. When Lister read off the back of the box he says “Back to Earth. Takes place after series 10.” etc etc

[International Debris]

Indeed. If series 9 was truly a ‘lost’ series, then it would make sense of BtE not being 9, X coming along. There would actually be a joke in the numbering of the series, which is about as meta as it comes.

It is. Fanfare for the Common Muse is an album by a different band that also happens to be called The Divine Comedy and also happens to have Neil Hannon as one of its members.

Nope, it’s been officially acknowledged as the first DC album for some time now:
http://thedivinecomedy.com/music

[GlenTokyo]

You have to think that series/season IX would be fucking horrible to watch then. Love of man’s life is suddenly and violently killed and then he has to deal with it.

Sort of glad it doesn’t exist if that’s the story arc haha

[Seb Patrick]

I might have been not being entirely serious about the Divine Comedy thing anyway. But yes, I figured when he did Victory that was the point at which he was finally acknowledging Fanfare as a thing rather than brushing it away.

As for Weezer, they have made three great albums post-2002, so nyeh.

[Seb Patrick]

Indeed. If series 9 was truly a ‘lost’ series, then it would make sense of BtE not being 9, X coming along. There would actually be a joke in the numbering of the series, which is about as meta as it comes.

This is the point, though, isn’t it? BTE contains dialogue that refers to a mythical series 9 that we haven’t seen and will never see. Then the show comes back for another series, and it’s not series 9, it’s series 10.

That’s the joke. That’s absolutely the joke. I’ve always seen it as deliberate.

[Ben Saunders]

I actually like post-2002 Weezer (for the most part), it was just a joke

[Lily]

>This is the point, though, isn’t it? BTE contains dialogue that refers to a mythical series 9 that we haven’t seen and will never see. Then the show comes back for another series, and it’s not series 9, it’s series 10.

But BtE also refers to series 10?

[International Debris]

But BtE also refers to series 10?

Exactly. If only 9 was mentioned in BtE then it would be possible to consider it canon (just canon we’ll never see). Instead, to consider it series 9 then we have to consider that there are two separate series 10s, with BtE in the middle.

I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX X BtE X XI XII
Not a chance.

[GlenTokyo]

If Derek from work left and was replaced by Clive, would you call Clive Derek 2 or Clive?

It might make sense to call Back to Earth Red Dwarf IX if BtE wasn’t given a name, for example if it had just been called Red Dwarf as some sort of special semi reboot thing, but it was called Back to Earth, it’s not a tongue twister, it’s easily shortened and is as quick to say as “Red Dwarf IX” because you say “I’m going to watch Red Dwarf IX” not “Im going to watch IX” and with Back to Earth you just say “Back to Earth”.

The only thing if doesn’t do is tell you where it comes chronologically, but we know where it comes, so why so we have to call if IX? And nobody else outside this thread gives a shit so why not just call it Back to Earth?

[Hamish]

If you are appealing to apathy now though, why not just let people call it Series IX?

[Lily]

>Exactly. If only 9 was mentioned in BtE then it would be possible to consider it canon (just canon we’ll never see).

I’ve got ya now. I was reading your “if only” as a wish, rather than indicating exclusivity. However, that still precludes BtE from being referred to as 9 if you consider the events of BtE as canon.

Considering it was all a hallucination though, it would be fair to say that the actual contents of BtE is irrelevant and it’s still series 9, being after 8 and before 10.

[GlenTokyo]

If you are appealing to apathy now though, why not just let people call it Series IX?

Because it’s called Back to Earth, but I’d never presume anyone pays attention to what I say anyway.

[Pete Part Three]

The only half-way decent meta idea in the whole thing and they fuck it up by mentioning X within the story.

Ah, well. X is not actually 10, but “unknown” because no one knows how many series we’ve had by that point. of series. XI is unknown +1. And so on.

[Pete Part Three]

All I want for Christmas is an edit button on the forum.

[Ben Saunders]

>Ah, well. X is not actually 10, but “unknown” because no one knows how many series we’ve had by that point. of series. XI is unknown +1. And so on.

Series XI would be unknown -1, meaning the thing that came before the first unknown series, Series X. This would be Back to Earth, hence making BtE Series XI.

Sorted.

[Ben Saunders]

Series X would be unknown ********************************
Hence making BtE Series IX ********************************

>All I want for Christmas is an edit button on the forum.
I concur

[Dave]

If Derek from work left and was replaced by Clive, would you call Clive Derek 2 or Clive?

If Derek from work left and was replaced by someone else called Derek, and this happened so many times that you had a Derek 1 all the way through to a Derek 8, and later on you also had a Derek 10, 11 and 12, and the bloke between Derek 8 and Derek 10 was also called Derek, what would you call him?

[bloodteller]

okay but what if after Derek 8, there was a new guy called Back To Derek? you wouldn’t call him Derek 9 would you, you’d call him Back To Derek. because that’s his name

[International Debris]

Has this thread been nominated for Hall of Fame status yet? Because it bloody deserves it. Thus I nominate it for Hall of Fame status.

So, is BtE IX or XI then?

[Ben Saunders]

Back to Earth is Series 11 and Series XI is Series 9

[GlenTokyo]

okay but what if after Derek 8, there was a new guy called Back To Derek? you wouldn’t call him Derek 9 would you, you’d call him Back To Derek. because that’s his name

Back to Derek would keep asking to be called by his correct name, to responses of “fuck off you’re Derek IX” and then he’d go home to his wife and cry, eventually he’d take it up with management, “we know you’re called Back to Derek, but you did come after Derek 8, so there’s nothing we’re willing to do about it”.

At the highest court in the land Back to Derek the right honourable Douglas Naylor rules he should be awarded £50million of compensation and henceforth any reference to him as anything but Back to Derek be a crime in itself with a punishment of 120 hours of community service.

[Ben Saunders]

I can imagine Doug reading this thread and just laughing to himself maniacally. He knew what he was doing

[flanl3]

Also, don’t pull that Britbox crap on me. It can’t even decide if QI is hosted by Sandi or Sandy Toksvig, or in fact occasionally by anyone at all.

[Dave]

okay but what if after Derek 8, there was a new guy called Back To Derek? you wouldn’t call him Derek 9 would you, you’d call him Back To Derek. because that’s his name

But what if he was called Derek and was the ninth Derek but insisted on calling himself ‘Derek: Back To Derek’? You’d say “no, stop being pretentious, this is silly, you’re called Derek just like all the other Dereks. I’m happy to call you Back To Derek but it doesn’t stop you from being Derek 9”.

[Pete Part Three]

I am not a number, I’m a Derek.

[Dave]

Now I’m hoping that the next series of Inside No. 9 has an episode entirely based around Back To Earth.

[flanl3]

Fine, maybe the ninth Derek has got a middle name, and insists on going by it. You call him Derek Joseph, or DJ for short. He has specifically asked not to just be called Derek. You can’t call him Derek IX, since he has told you that’s not his name, and you can’t call him Derek Joseph IX, since he’s not the ninth Derek Joseph, unless he was, in which case whomever is responsible for hiring at that company needs to be audited to see if there’s any sort of bias towards people called Derek or Derek Joseph.

[International Debris]

DJ IX spins some good tunes.

[Dave]

You can’t call him Derek IX, since he has told you that’s not his name

Imagine my surprise when I found out that he *does* call himself Derek IX, but only when he’s travelling on business in France.

[Ben Saunders]

>Imagine my surprise when I found out that he *does* call himself Derek IX, but only when he’s travelling on business in France.

Ha.

[bloodteller]

so is Derek USA called Derek 5.5, I wonder?

[Ben Saunders]

We don’t talk about Derek USA.

[GlenTokyo]

Imagine my surprise when I found out that he *does* call himself Derek IX, but only when he’s travelling on business in France.

He does but only due to Derek de retour sur Terre being the name of an infamous serial killer in France

[Ben Saunders]

What do you call the second attempt at Derek USA?

[Dave]

Shite.

[Hamish]

What would you call it if you combined nine separate Dereks into one though?

[Renegade Rob]

Wowee! A thread I’ve started has been nominated for Hall of Fame status! Even though I made stupid typos in the opening post that I don’t know how to fix, and even though the conversation drifted into things completely separate from what the thread was originally about, I’ll take it!

X being “unknown” instead of ten is something I could possibly get behind to settle the dispute. Even though the past couple series have clearly been called ten, eleven, and twelve (not x, x+1, or x+2). But you’re onto something here, because of course the Dwarfers would have at least a couple full “series” of adventures during the nine year gap.

It sort of reminds me of one of the few things I liked about that stupid miniseries Heroes Reborn, which took place five years after the original Heroes run ended at season four, which was how the showrunner explained that this series was functionally “season ten” because the heroes have actually been having five seasons-worth of adventures during that five year gap, it’s just that we the audience haven’t been privy to those.

My proposed solution, if you can call it one, that keeps the sequential numbers intact in both continuities, is to employ imaginary numbers. It actually makes sense because the crux of BTE is just a hallucination/alternate reality, as are the “series nine” and “series ten” mentioned within, so the term imaginary is apt. If you think of the joy squid reality’s post VIII-series as imaginary, then the mentioned nine and ten become “Series 9-i” and “Series 10-i” completely separate from “our” series nine and ten. Still with me? Good.

So here’s my thought: In this paradigm, BTE is a complex number, in this case “9 + 11i”. It’s 9 because it’s clearly the 9th series produced in our world between 8 and 10, and it’s 11i because it takes place after the series 10i mentioned in the hallucination universe on the DVD cover. BTE occupies two different points on the series numerology depending on which reality’s continuity you’re using.

So saying it’s Series IX is correct in many ways. Saying it takes place “after series ten” is also correct in the context of the special. Both are right. But if we’re just dealing with “our” universe of produced series, then undoubtedly BTE is Series IX. But from a god’s eye view, the proper series numeration for BTE is “Series IX +11i.” I have thus solved the BTE/IX debate for all time. Q.E.D.

Still, I’d be remiss if I didn’t try to contribute something even slightly pertaining to the original topic I started this thread about, so um… The possible good thing about XII being pale blue even though XI is a similar pale blue is that there’s a continuity of color between II and XII, both blue and sharing the “II.”

Eh. Whatever. It still nags at me, the double-blue. I’m just running out of ways to rationalize it…

[Author]

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