Thoughts on the Series XII Flipside Cover?

[Renegade Rob]

Over this past weekend, I’ve been processing the reveal of the Series XII flipside cover. As someone who likes consistency but also wants each series to have their own identity, I’ve been trying to figure out how I feel about the color. The pale red bunkroom and pale blue Starbug cockpit made perfect sense for X and XI, but the fact that the Science Room for XII, despite being an obvious choice, still nags at me a bit, so I’ve created this post more as a sounding board to help me work out how I come down on this very important issue.

I really want each series to feel like it’s own distinct entity with its own identity, and up until now, they have. But let’s face it: the military blue Science Room XII cover is a little close to the ocean blue of the Starbug cockpit XI cover, so that’s 2 pale-blues in a row. Granted, they’re slightly different shades, with XII having more than a dash of light purple. But it’s the equivalent of making Series IV the officers Bunkroom and Series V the old III-V Science Room: same color scheme because of similar production design. If they had made XII yellow with the new Science Room at Yellow Alert, that would’ve been great. Or they could have, as I thought they might do, made XII pale-green with the Starbug 19 interior and echo the pattern of the original 6, so that a Series XIII cover would be even paler beige and so on.
As it is, two light blues in a row, leaves me a little cold.

But then I did some more thinking about the cover (What better way is there to spend a Sarurday night?), and the thought occurred that part of XII’s identity is the fact that it’s of a pair with XI. Thet were commissioned together, written together, share sets and even moved scenes, and were basically filmed together. This sort of was one long series split over two, more than possible any pair of series before. Now true, XII is, give or take a Timewave, way better than XI overall, as almost certainly it built off the momentum established by XI to be more bold and confident.

In that light, it makes some deal of sense to have XI and XII be similar colors, because much of their identity is the fact that they’re intrinsically linked. Like those weird quasi-two-parters from Series 9 of Doctor Who. So I think I’m coming down on the side of “I get it and can live with it” but would have preferred something a little more distinct.

Thoughts?

Topic

[Renegade Rob]

Wow. Fucked that up.

Block quote fail. Don’t know how to go back and fix it.

Sorry :(

[GlenTokyo]

You can’t fix it, the edit button doesn’t do anything, our mistakes live forever on the G&T Forums

[Ben Paddon]

I’m really really really glad this conversation is happening.

[International Debris]

On the up side, the Guinness Book of Records phoned up and nominated us for Longest Discussion of Series Numbering in a Sitcom.
On the down side, the Guinness Book of Records phoned up and nominated us for Longest Discussion of Series Numbering in a Sitcom.

[Warbodog]

The Black Adder
Blackadder II
Blackadder the Third
Blackadder: The Cavalier Years
Blackadder’s Christmas Carol
Blackadder Goes Sixth

[International Debris]

You missed out Blackadder Back and 4th

[Moonlight]

Nobody has this debate when Blackadder to Earth came out. Why does our fandom to have to so wrapped up in this argument my side was clearly winning?

[Moonlight]

Guinness Book called again. Apparently we have the longest non-functioning edit button in forum history.

[flanl3]

Never mind when BoJack to Earthman, Earthrested Backvelopment, The Back Earth Theory, and Backmastearth came out. Guess the Red Dwarf fandom are just a bunch of pricks.

[Moonlight]

Then again, look at Blacktoearthula. That film got ravaged.

[flanl3]

By the way, the Book have called me for most failed attempts at making a joke on a single internet forum.

[Moonlight]

I’ve never seen so many depressed record-holders in one topic before.

[Ben Saunders]

Guinness just called and they say they’re combining all of our records into one “saddest fanbase on the internet” accolade, and only printing one certificate

[Seb Patrick]

The Blackadder the Third Goes Back and Forth II

[International Debris]

No he doesn’t.

[Captain No-Name]

Surely

The Blackadder the Third Goes Back and Forth II: The Cavalier Years

[Captain No-Name]

Also, Upstart Crow is set in the same continuity as Blackadder II, so maybe that wants bunging in too..?

[Pete Part Three]

No.

[Moonlight]

I hope we get a new Complete Series DVD that comes out right after they announce four new series to be shot in two back-to-back blocks.

[GlenTokyo]

Get it on Blu-ray. Find the model footage and scan it in HD. Episodes and other extras in SD but on the same disc, updated interactive menus. Cast commentary for the Dave episodes. Laaavely

[Moonlight]

They’d probably excise the original bonus features entirely, crop all the old episodes into 16:9, and accidentally include the Remastered version of Marooned but with the audio track of the unaltered episode. It claims to feature brand new commentaries, but they’re just segments of the Infinity audiobook pasted over the top of Series I episodes.

There’s one new documentary, but it’s just 52 minutes of Doug Naylor uncontrollably sobbing.

[GlenTokyo]

Haha, 3 hour long series 8 documentary of just the cast saying it’s the best dwarf they’ve ever done, interspersed with the rapiest moments.

It’d be great if they did a TNG if they could find the model shoot film, redo any video effects and have the models in HD re-edited into the existing episodes.

Can you trust it not to turn into remastered 2 at that point though.

[Lilly Queen]

You could if I was in charge of it. Also Back to Earth interlaced correctly and 5.1 audio on XI and XII. And every missing raw model shot included. And commentaries with Rob and Doug on everything. Rob proceeds to praise the Dave episodes but says he prefer VIII.

The negatives of those model shots must be out there. What was it Doug once said? The BBC lost them? That seems really odd to me. They don’t lose anything. They do junk things, but only pre-1976. I bet it’s buried somewhere in the archives. Someone needs to get on the case.

[GlenTokyo]

I’d love Rob and Doug commentaries for 1-6 but I think making Rob do everything after is a bit perverse.

Ed and Doug maybe, Ed has previous when it comes to talking about episodes he wasn’t involved with on Six of the Best.

Yeah Doug said on the BtE commentary that they’d lost them around then, so between 2001ish and 2009, assuming they had access to them for the DVDs and didn’t use something they had at GNP, a highish quality (good enough for DVD) betamax or something.

I wondered if they’d found some due to the old model shot in Skipper which seemed of no worse quality than the rest of the episode when viewed at 1080p but no-one engaged on that at the time.

It’s a shame. I’d hope that for the 30th something could be done. Get a PI. I bet Doug is planning like crazy for the massive 30th Blu-ray mega box set.

[Lilly Queen]

I still need to analyse that Skipper shot. Side by side with the raw fx shot from the dvd. It could be an upscale but I’m not sure. If it does mean a new hd transfer has been made, then there is much to be excited about.

But the dvd raw model shots are definitely from a telecine transfer. Unmistakably. If they were from a videotape source they would look as shit as they do in the episodes. So the negatives were available within the decade Back to Earth was made. That seems even more unlikely that they would be lost in that time. It also begs the question of why an HD transfer wasn’t made at the time that they had them.

Also, if that is an upscale in Skipper, with how good it looks, it makes me wonder why they just didn’t do that for Back to Earth.

[bloodteller]

isn’t there a bit in the XII documentary where they explain exactly how they ended up with the old model shot in Skipper? i don’t actually have the XII dvd to confirm that, it’s just something i read

[Lilly Queen]

No, there was nothing like that. Although I haven’t watched the font or lighting featurettes yet, but I doubt it would be there.

[Ben Paddon]

We know Red Dwarf I-VIII were, for a while at least, planned to receive a BLuray release before Doug killed it. If so, is it possible they were able to find the original model shot film and scan it in HD for a possible remastering? Considering the project was killed, it isn’t against all reason that the film may have been put to use in “Skipper”.

Mind you, my money is on a simple upscaling of the original footage.

[GlenTokyo]

All he said was the quality wasn’t there so who knows, they weren’t for us though were they? Didn’t they turn up on non UK Amazon first? I got the impression it was for foreign markets as a slightly better looking just the shows, and so they could give better versions to TV channels. Not sure the scope included rescanning film and re-editing stuff.

[Ben Paddon]

In fairness, the model shots were shot on film and the show proper was shot on video. Upscaled video is almost always going to look a bit rubbish. Frankly, even though the picture quality is a little better, I’m still shocked that they bothered putting out Doctor Who series 1-4 on Bluray at all.

[Ben Paddon]

Frankly I’m still a bit shocked that “Shada” is getting a Bluray release.

[GlenTokyo]

Since it’s Doctor Who I imagine they just thought they’d get a bit of money out of it.

I think everyone is aware of the one inch tape related issues, I just want stuff on one disc to be honest, and it’s an excuse to re release the Bodysnatcher Docs with the early series.

[GlenTokyo]

Aren’t they redoing all the model shots for that? Well it looks like it from the Model Units Instagram anyway. I’m sure they’ll take advantage of the extra resolution.

Mike Tucker’s tash needs to be committed to Blu-ray for future generations.

[Ben Saunders]

Mike Tucker the Starbug fucker

Cool dude

Much of pre-S5 Doctor Who looks like somebody smeared vaseline on the lens and the lighting is dreadful

And some of the “wacky” editing – looking back on it makes me cringe, and I wonder if non-Who fans were as forgiving of it as we were back then or if they knew how shit it looked from day one

[Captain No-Name]

I’m intrigued. Example of “wacky” editing..?

[Ben Saunders]

Any moment where they speed shit up and do the wooshy motion blur stuff. I wish I had an example on hand, I really do. The End of Time and Voyage of the Damned both have bits in it that are just hard to stomach now. Some of it just feels so low budget, like School Reunion looks like it was made for 25p. I think part of it is just how quickly the TV-tier CGI aged, and how we’re used to much better looking shows now like Heaven Sent and anything directed by Rachel Talalay.

It’s hard to pinpoint exactly what just looks so off in series 1 especially – the lighting, the resolution, the way it’s shot? The way all the lights catch the camera and flare. People have said “out of focus” and used the lens smeared with vaseline line, but I just don’t know.

I thought it looked pretty good when I actually watched it going out live, which makes me wonder if it looks worse with age or always looked bad.

[GlenTokyo]

The first episode of Ecclestone Who was like Zzzapp made a sex tape with EastEnders and someone who really wanted to be Edgar Wright directed it.

My memories of that first series include lots of quick pans and whoosh noises

[Ben Saunders]

Don’t forget farting aliens and WALES

Man what a time

[Ben Paddon]

I just want stuff on one disc to be honest

Which won’t happen, mostly because of Bluray formatting standards. The BDA doesn’t allow pure SD content (i.e. not upscaled) on Bluray discs.

[Captain No-Name]

The BDA doesn’t allow pure SD content (i.e. not upscaled) on Bluray discs.

I always think it’s a shame they don’t just release SD content on Bluray disc but marketed under a different name. Exactly the same technology, but market them as super-duper DVDs with lots of space. Only the boffins would know it was a bluray disc with SD content on. Normal people would just think of them as DVDXs or whatever.

I mean a disc’s a disc. They contrive the boxes to look slightly different and stick a bluray logo on it, but the actual plastic disc just looks like a CD or a DVD.

I suppose it’s not a sound marketing idea. You can sell me 12 series of Red Dwarf across multiple discs, with a release per series, or you can sell me all 8 series of BBC Dwarf on a single disc, and all 4 Dave series on a second disc…

[Pete Part Three]

*cough* NAS

[Captain No-Name]

*coughcough* what does NAS mean?

[GlenTokyo]

Network Access Storage?

Anyway, as with season 1 of NuWho which was SD but released on Blu-ray, as long as the content was better than DVD, could they do it? Was Red Dwarf broadcast at 576 lines? That’s better than DVD quality if they can release it at that resolution, would that qualify? Wouldn’t the higher bandwidth also help? Not that I’ve noticed any compression on the DVDs but someone might have.

[GlenTokyo]

Oh apparently you can have SD DVD content on Blu-ray, they’re just called SD Blu-ray. Concert DVDs release on them with SD picture but a lossless audio track and apparently there are some benefits regarding compression and bandwidth.

[bloodteller]

>Frankly I’m still a bit shocked that “Shada” is getting a Bluray release.

saw this in Sainsbury’s the other day, is it any good? i looked on the back of the box and its all mixed in with weird Flash animation. surely that won’t gel together well?

[Ben Saunders]

The alternatives are a 199X VHS featuring old Tom Baker just telling you what happened in the bits they didn’t film, in character, which is weird, or a Big Finish audio production with Paul McGann, Lalla Ward and John Leeson, which I haven’t seen.

I watched the VHS. It’s alright – it’s not a brilliant story, it’s only reached mythical status because it was never seen by most people and it was WRITTEN BY DOUGLAS ADAMS (who admits he was phoning it in) – but it’s worth your time if you’re a completionist, I’d say.

The “flash animation” features voiceover by Baker and Ward, I think, so if anything it will be a more cohesive version of the story compared to the VHS, but less cohesive than the audio – but to be honest, if you’re a completionist, the audio won’t satisfy you, because it’s essentially a remake, and you don’t get to see any of the original footage, which for me is sort of the point.

Tom Baker pretending to be an older Doctor in character (The Curator, in a way) is quite something, so it’s up to you. I’ll watch the DVD eventually but having just watched Shada, I don’t feel like it any time soon.

[Captain No-Name]

Network Access Storage?

Ah right. Not a disc format then.

Oh apparently you can have SD DVD content on Blu-ray, they’re just called SD Blu-ray.

Interesting. Didn’t know that.

its all mixed in with weird Flash animation. surely that won’t gel together well?

I bought this yesterday, and am looking forward to watching it over Christmas.

A few years ago I saw the legendary unofficial Levine version (which was similarly part-animated) and I found it to be a perfectly satisfying way of completing the story. As Ben says, the only real alternative is that 1990s version with Tom Baker narrating across the gaps, which I’m not a fan of.

I enjoyed the McGann webcast, but it had a completely different cast (apart from Lalla Ward) so it’s very much it’s own beast.

The Gareth Roberts novelisation is without doubt the most I have ever enjoyed a Doctor Who novel, and is probably the best version of the story. Not least because it gives Douglas Adams’s script that final polish which it needed.

But you know what, I can’t join in with the naysayers who reckon Shada is only well-regarded because of its incomplete status. I think it’s Douglas Adams’s best DW story. I know it’s sacrilege but I prefer it to City of Death, which I is all good fun but curiously overrated.

Douglas Adams didn’t think highly of Shada, but then he didn’t think highly of the TV version of H2G2, and I think that is a joy from beginning to end, personally. Sometimes creators can’t see how good their stuff is, because they are fixated on the gap between their imagination and the (imperfectly-realised) version that actually got made.

[Ben Saunders]

Here’s a bombshell for you: I don’t think Douglas Adams is good at writing Doctor Who. City of Death is only the most highly regarded Who story because it’s the one most people saw (17 million, I think) by a long-shot because ITV were on-strike at the time.

His tenure as script editor provided us with one of the worst seasons of the show, and coupled with Tom Baker turning into a gurning maniac (partly due disallowing the show to continue down its horror-fueled path, leaving them to turn to comedy as there was nothing else left).

City of Death is FUN, very enjoyable as a comedy, but doesn’t have that great of a story behind it, and neither does Shada, and Shada isn’t as fun. It might be a better story, but it doesn’t have lines like “you’re a very beautiful woman, probably”.
The Pirate Planet was alright too, and features an uncharacteristically good performance from Tom Baker given the period it was made in. Tom was great to begin with, became a clown at some point, then started taking it seriously again and put in some great stuff on his final season.

[Ben Saunders]

I love Hitchikers, by the way, and do not deny Adam’s talent, I just don’t think he was a good fit for Who. If they made another show starring Tom Baker written by Douglas Adams it would have been glorious, but not Doctor Who.

[Captain No-Name]

Here’s a bombshell for you: I don’t think Douglas Adams is good at writing Doctor Who.

I gather that was in fact the consensus view of Doctor Who fandom circa about 1980.

Personally, while I love a bit of Warrior’s Gate, I also love a bit of Shada. I see the shift from Season 17 to 18 as just a change from one type of Who (which I enjoy) to another type of Who (which I enjoy). There’s good and bad in both. Tom Baker’s Season 18 burgundy costume is definitely a trade-off for the worse, but the opening titles are all spangly and new so…

The one thing I take issue with when people criticise Douglas Adams Who is this idea that comedy is a bad thing that needed stamping out of the programme. I just can’t understand that. Give me “undergraduate” one-liners over dialogue about Charged Vacuum Emboitments any day.

[Author]

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