Home Forums Ganymede & Titan Forum We say good things about the Dave-era

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  • #232919

    Here’s one, I like Lister’s custom vest he sometimes wears that has all the four main character’s faces on it in Series XI and XII.

    #232921
    flanl3
    Participant

    It brought us the incredible “spit on her wrist” joke. I don’t think I’ve ever laughed harder.

    #232924
    Piplup2003
    Participant

    Mark Dexter. Ryan Gage. Need I say more about these two?

    #232934
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Some of the model shots are quite nice

    #232938
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    i liked The Beginning and Give & Take and Cured, those were quite good.

    the sets are lovely too, especially in XI and XII.

    #232941
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    There’s not much I can say here, because while I like the Dave era a lot, the things I like about it aren’t unique to it, so I’d just be saying “I like this episode”, “Oh, and that episode”, “This bit was funny” etc.

    #232943
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    The time loop revelation in Give & Take is really rather good, as is all of the time travel stuff in it really, and is definitely some of the strongest writing we’ve seen from the Dave era, and would put up a good fight against some of the more beloved episodes of the original six series. Lister’s kidneys aside.

    #232944
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    The Dave era, while mediocre in (quite a lot of) places, every now and then affirms itself as worthy of being made, imo. The only episode I’ve ever finished and thought “I did not enjoy that” was Timewave.

    #232957

    Skipper made me laugh on first watch more than any other episode of Red Dwarf.

    #232961
    Dax101
    Participant

    Series XI and XII look visually nice.

    Some of the ideas in X,XI and XII are ambitious and unique, but not always executed as well as they could be.

    XI and XII feels more energized and youthful after BTE and X felt abit tired.

    #232963
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Series XI and Series XII were better than Series X which was better than Back to Earth, so I guess we’re getting somewhere.

    Were it not for the Dave era, I’d never have seen the show recorded live.

    It’s better than Over to Bill.

    Even if you hate Red Dwarf VIII, the BBC’s disinterest in the show is utterly baffling, and the success of the show on Dave shows how dumb this was.

    Seeing Red Dwarf advertised on the tube and on billboards is surreal but nice.

    It’s in HD and looks a lot better than the picture quality of BBC Dwarf.

    This website had something substantial to report on beyond the first 52 episodes, DVDs and Merchandise and it does so very well indeed, The live Dwarfcasts are great.

    The scene with Kryten’s showing invisible stuff to Lister in M-Corp is premium Dwarf and up there with some of the show’s best moments,

    Snacky!

    Anything’s better than Series VIII.

    #232964
    (deleted)
    Participant

    Trojan, Lemons, The Beginning, Krysis, Cured, M-Corp and Skipper are for me as good as any episodes of Red Dwarf ever made, and Back To Earth, Fathers And Suns, Officer Rimmer and Can Of Worms aren’t far off.

    (Btw, I have no interest in debating or arguing about this. I am saying I like some TV episodes. End of.)

    #232973
    Warbodog
    Participant

    I can’t credit the cast’s natural ageing to the Dave era, but I like when it’s addressed in the stories a lot, more of that would be great. Rimmer and Binks made gibes about the state of Lister’s health in the old days, but it’s not until Give & Take that he’s convincingly fucked.

    #232977
    Hamish
    Participant

    > but it’s not until Give & Take that he’s convincingly fucked.

    Were we watching the same show?

    #232979
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Maybe it’s only in retrospect, but smoking and drinking “20s” Lister seems sprightly now, he’ll be fine. Maybe they should have gone with an older actor from the start like they’d intended, except now he’d be in his 70s and might not be up to it any more, or dead.

    #232984
    MANI506
    Participant

    Ten years ago the show was dead, thanks to Dave there are 21 new episodes which hold up very well to the previous 52. I was pumped for Back To Earth, X and XI (which was bigger, better and smeggier for at least half the episodes) and by the time of XII I settled down and just enjoyed (mostly) six new episodes. Mr Rat made me giggle for a week. I still get a laugh out of ‘sometimes they sleep with me’ followed by ‘mmmmmmmmm!’

    #233005
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    The reveal of Mr. Rat just about broke me, Jesus Christ. The way it’s set up so you’re intently expecting -something- funny to appear, but then you get hit with Mr. Fucking Rat and you fall off your chair. Brilliant.

    #233022
    Ridley
    Participant

    I like that simply because Kryten is the only one to say the character’s name, Mr. Rat is given an undue level of formality from fandom.

    #233025
    Dave
    Participant

    Well, I mean, the others presumably just call him Rat.

    #233031
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Lister doesn’t name him, at all? Odd.

    #233036
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    We got rid of the pencil.

    #233041
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Didn’t get rid of it, just sharpened it.

    #233491
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    the Dave era is new Red Dwarf, which is better than no Red Dwarf. obviously the show can’t go on forever (it’s a miracle it’s lasted as long as it has) and while i personally would like to see the show come to an end one day, it is nice that we’re still getting new episodes and more adventures of the posse as they continue to drift directionless through space. the Dave era has been a bit hit-and-miss with some episodes being amazing and then some others being mediocre and then one of them being awful, but i think it’s definitely better to have a new series with a couple of dodgy eps than no new series at all. though if the show goes on much longer i will no longer be able to fit all the DVDs in my shelf. maybe i need a bigger shelf

    also- the poker face punchline of Cured was excellent.

    #233500
    flanl3
    Participant

    The opening scene paying off has become one of the best parts of the Dave era, hasn’t it? A lot of the earlier bantery dialogue that seems like filler turns out to have actually meant something, and there’s something more satisfying about the show when it feels like more of the things they’ve done were done for a reason.

    #233505
    Hamish
    Participant

    > there’s something more satisfying about the show when it feels like more of the things they’ve done were done for a reason.

    We all know that Dear Dave and the ending of Entangled “were done for a reason”.

    Sorry, sorry, we are supposed to be nice. I like Cured.

    #233506
    flanl3
    Participant

    I’m not sure if you’ve deliberately missed my point or if I’m bad at explaining, but I suppose I’m more getting at the ‘XI beginning’ phenomenon, where, for example, Lister wakes up hungover only remembering having two beers in Give & Take, or in Samsara with the whole seemingly pointless dice scene that ends up having been caused by Samsara’s karma field.

    I guess maybe it is just more of an XI thing.

    Maybe that’s part of why XI is easily my favorite of the Dave ones and among my favorites of all of them.

    #233530
    Hamish
    Participant

    > I’m not sure if you’ve deliberately missed my point or if I’m bad at explaining.

    No, no, I am just being a idiot for the sake of a weak joke. Like always.

    #233541
    Moonlight
    Participant

    I really have to insist large swathes of Series XII and more so Series XI are classic-era quality in terms of the enjoyment and rewatchability they have in my eyes. A bit different of a writing style, as you’d expect from one writer taking over the work of two, but I find myself going back to my XI/XII favorites incredibly often in a way I just don’t for Series VII-X. They also have that newness that Series I-VI obviously don’t, as I’ve been watching them since tweenhood. I haven’t regularly watched VIII in many years, but I watched so much Red Dwarf then I still feel like I remember it word for word in a way I’m only starting to for the new eps.

    #233542
    Moonlight
    Participant

    For the record I’m abnormally good at memorizing TV quotes, in case it sounded like I’m pouring over the episodes repeatedly in a deliberate attempt to memorize them.

    I don’t need no idiot boards noways, you scaly old piscines.

    #233546
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    >pouring over the episodes

    pouring what over them?

    #233549

    >pouring what over them?

    Maple syrup and taramasalata

    #233550
    Moonlight
    Participant

    Literally every time I use that phrase people make that joke.

    I never learn, do I?

    #233568
    flanl3
    Participant

    Yes, it might help if you talked about poring over things instead.

    #233576
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    yeah it’s spelt “poring” which is why everyone makes that joke

    #233582
    Dave
    Participant

    By the way, you spell it ‘poring’.

    #233584

    pouring over the episodes

    I think you mean ‘poring’.

    #233589
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    it’s also spelt “poring”. did anyone mention that yet?

    #233591
    Dave
    Participant

    This joke is getting poring.

    #233592
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    I’m just glad the show now doesn’t end on a cliffhanger.

    #233639
    Hamish
    Participant

    American gets in trouble for forgetting to drop the letter “u” in lingual shocker.

    #233724
    Moonlight
    Participant

    Yeah, well, we saved your ass in World War II.

    #233727
    Dave
    Participant

    Yeah, well, we saved your arse in World War III.

    #233731
    flanl3
    Participant

    >Yeah, well, we saved your ass in World War II.

    As an American, I know this isn’t actually true.

    #233732
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    i wasn’t in World War II

    #233733
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    I saved an ass during WWI

    That donkey was in a bad way before I got there in the summer of ’14.

    #233734
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    you must be very old, glen

    #233735
    Dave
    Participant

    Five long years, he wore this watch, up his ass.

    #233736
    Stabbim the Skutter
    Participant

    The Beginning is an amazing episode and one of my favourites. I’m happy we got XI and XII, but I would be totally satisfied if The Beginning were the grand series finale.

    #233741
    Dax101
    Participant

    I am one of those people who don’t get all the fuss made over The Beginning. Yes it probably feels like one of the more stronger character-driven episodes of the dave era but it still suffers from a fair amount of issues IMO.

    The Rimmers dad stuff i still think it was a huge mistake. after years and many series of hearing about Rimmers father and the sort of person he was and how alot of that could contribute to how Rimmer turned out Doug throws this gardener father thing into the mix like it has some strong relevance to who Rimmer is and that just feels like taking years of gradual development and resolving it as quickly as possible with one shock reveal

    The simulants got very goofy and were definitely weak villains.

    And sorry Doug the writing at the end with Rimmer being all heroic was probably supposed to be cool and Rimmers best moment… but somehow it felt very awkward.

    #233744
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    Mr. Rimmer still made him what he was. Dungo was his father, but Mr. Rimmer was his dad. And he still does the prickish thing of “you’re a success now, but fuck off”.

    #233745
    Dax101
    Participant

    See thats where things get abit twisted though with the revelation. not only did Doug throw in some jokes to almost state that Rimmers shortcomings are hereditary, but many fans have since asked the question whether Dungo was also howards father… and why? well because Howard was shock revealed to be just like Rimmer and the message of the episode obvious came out to many as Father was a loser because he was his fathers son.

    Maybe Doug didn’t mean it to come out that way but that was the way it was executed.

    #233746
    Dax101
    Participant

    *Rimmer was a loser

    #233747
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Suddenly having Rimmer’s biological father revealed as somebody else doesn’t delete the fact that he -was- raised by the other man and still went through everything he went through up to and including that point. In exactly the same way that undoing the Time War doesn’t undo 9, 10 or 11’s character development in Doctor Who. It adds dramatic irony to a viewer re-watching old events, but it doesn’t change what the character experiences, does or feels in any way retroactively. Rimmer in Series III still thinks is father is who he thought it was and still acts accordingly.

    #233749
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    i don’t mind Rimmer’s dad not actually being his dad- i think it works in a way, that he’s spent all these years trying to exorcise this man’s disapproval and hear him say “well done” just once and it turns out he wasn’t even his dad. i think that’s quite an interesting idea, that after everything he’s done to try and be someone his father would be proud of- he was that person all along, Dungo would’ve been really happy that Rimmer made it as far as he did.

    on the other hand, it does kind of soil the excellent Observation Dome scene in Better Than Life. and i absolutely love that scene

    #233750

    >See thats where things get abit twisted though with the revelation. not only did Doug throw in some jokes to almost state that Rimmers shortcomings are hereditary, but many fans have since asked the question whether Dungo was also howards father… and why? well because Howard was shock revealed to be just like Rimmer and the message of the episode obvious came out to many as Father was a loser because he was his fathers son.

    I don’t understand what you are saying really. It wasn’t biological but since the Rimmer brothers were all raised by Lecturer Rimmer they could’ve just as easily picked up his obsession with military success as being blood-relatives with him. I assume it’d be all too possible to inherit certain traits one could’ve grown-up with without having to be related to the ones influencing it.

    >The simulants got very goofy and were definitely weak villains.

    I think this complaint that the simulants from The Beginning are too goofy is way overblown, they are never portrayed as incompetent, Hogey only managed to steal the map while they were asleep and they quickly located him soon afterwards. The jokes regarding the simulants in that episode are the simulant underlings bending-over backwards to the Dominator’s every command no matter how ridiculous or nonsensical the demand is.

    >And sorry Doug the writing at the end with Rimmer being all heroic was probably supposed to be cool and Rimmers best moment… but somehow it felt very awkward.

    I disagree wholeheartedly, it was one of the best moments in the Dave-era so far.

    #233751
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    actually never mind, lister’s dad mentioned in that scene isn’t lister’s real dad either. i guess it evens out

    #233752

    >on the other hand, it does kind of soil the excellent Observation Dome scene in Better Than Life. and i absolutely love that scene

    Not for me, Rimmer still experienced that, even if it wasn’t by his biological father he still grew-up being mistreated by him and having a shit childhood. I thought the opening scene at the school was a good demonstration of that.

    #233753
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    This is just a nature vs. nurture argument in the context of Red Dwarf, lol

    #233754
    Dax101
    Participant

    >I don’t understand what you are saying really. It wasn’t biological but since the Rimmer brothers were all raised by Lecturer Rimmer they could’ve just as easily picked up his obsession with military success as being blood-relatives with him. I assume it’d be all too possible to inherit certain traits one could’ve grown-up with without having to be related to the ones influencing it.

    Well the Original idea was that Rimmers Brothers were all successful and Rimmer always fell behind which had been a question that had been answered in subtle ways whether it was dimension jump or other episodes that told you abit about how Rimmers family life.

    Howard apparently is just another Rimmer now, but presumably the other 2 are still successful.

    I think what the father reveal does actually is ask MORE questions then it answers. and the question it might be trying to answer isn’t as good as the years of bit by bit explanation the show has gone through in exploring Rimmer.

    And there are at least 2 jokes in the episode that are aimed at saying oh that explains everything and i feel like that was misplaced.

    But then i also feel like Dougs message about Lecturer Rimmer is also an odd one since the guy is obviously meant to be this demon that is holding Rimmer mentally back and Rimmer has to detach that expectation… but if you go by what Lecturer Rimmer said then you come to the conclusion that he wasn’t actually a bad guy since the only reason he didn’t tell Rimmer he wasn’t his father is because he didn’t wanna hold him back from reaching his dreams… but then you kinda get the sense that the message is that Lecturer Rimmer is bad.

    And there are fans who have said oh well that explains why Lecturer Rimmer always treating Rimmer bad… but it was already said in BTL that Rimmers dad treated him and his brothers the same way so this reveal really creates alot of assumptions that is ok aslong as you don’t reflect too much back.

    #233755
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    there’s a deleted scene from Rimmerworld which states all of the 3 other Rimmer brothers went insane and killed the crews of their ships too, so the other brothers being failiures was a thing long before Trojan

    #233756

    Well not really since it got deleted

    #233759
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    I don’t need explanations about why Rimmer is a failure. I like the thought of him, the youngest of 4 brothers, just being the runt of the litter and his parents realising far too late that the hardline they took with the other three essentially broke Arnold. Rimmer failing to “fight back” is what led him to down one route (whereas Ace took the other).

    Rob and Doug brought up the idea of Rimmer and Lister being brothers in Back to Reality with the idea that this would induce despair in Rimmer (as their social standings have switched, yet their mother is shared… and I’d wager that if it was anyway believable than Chris and Craig could be “full” brothers it would have been written as both parents) and rob him his defence mechanism of irrationally blaming his parents. It’s bizarre that, then in deleted scenes, novels and finally the ‘canon’ itself, they repeatedly begin tampering with Rimmer’s childhood. Suddenly Rimmer’s failings are explained in various ways and start to become understandable. Rimmer’s not iiratuonal because all his brothers have emotional problems, Rimmer’s a screw-up because he did not have a chip in his head, Rimmer had a different Dad to his brothers… etc.

    The idea of all the Rimmer boys being secretly shit is awful. I’ll let Howard off because I rather like Trojan and Mark Dexter’s perfromance, but it does start muddling things up, especially with the Dungo reveal (which is the worst kind of twist, as it means fuck all, has no lasting consequence and hasn’t been mentioned since).

    #233760

    >hasn’t been mentioned since

    “I got some issues with my father, who I discovered wasn’t my father, also I got some issues with my mother, who very sadly, is my mother.”

    #233761
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    *has been mentioned once in a throwaway line*

    #233762

    What would you consider to be some lasting consequences that would justify the twist

    #233771
    Hamish
    Participant

    Rimmer takes up gardening?

    #233772
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >What would you consider to be some lasting consequences that would justify the twist

    That’s the point. Rimmer, who is dead, finds out that his father, who is dead, is not really his father, but Dungo, who is dead.

    It can’t go anywhere. It’s a meaningless plot reveal. Why do I want to justify it? I think it’s shite.

    #233773
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    I just wanted to jump in and say that I am absolutely cool with both the Howard reveal and the Dad reveal.

    Regarding Howard, it was Rimmer’s idea of his brothers, and his treatment as the youngest child, which created his inferiority-superiority complex, not the reality of them. The revelation in Trojan that Howard is also a failure in life is a good opportunity for some self-reflection on Rimmer’s part (not that they do anything with it), but ultimately it’s not going to change Rimmer’s core personality, because his neuroses are already too well ingrained.

    Regarding Rimmer Sr., the revelation that he isn’t Rimmer’s biological father justifiably doesn’t change who Rimmer is in the long term, because his character was shaped by his upbringing, not his genes. However, given how entrenched the idea of “good breeding” would be in the kind of middle-to-upper class background Rimmer came from, the Dungo reveal does make Rimmer reconsider his feelings about his identity and agency, even if only for one episode, and I appreciate that.

    #233774
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    you’d think Rimmer learning who his real dad is would have made him a better and more confident person who’s happy with his place in life. sadly this only seems to apply in The Beginning, as in XI/XII he’s a complete bastard, maybe the most bastardy he’s ever been. definitely feels a bit odd, that.

    maybe he got a bit full of himself after learning his real dad would be proud of him, and he’s a bastard in XI/XII because he thinks he’s great. but even then it doesn’t feel right.

    #233776
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Rimmer’s dad and Howard reveals are both bleedin’ awful. Former shits on what went previous, particularly some nice bits of proper acting in Better Than Life and Marooned, latter is just crap and I know everyone loves him but Mark Dexter overplayed Howard to a ridiculous degree, completely not believable as an actual person.

    Positive: that bit where Lister is locked out and flies into the scoop, I like that bit.

    #233777
    cwickham
    Participant

    I don’t see how the revelation of Rimmer’s dad ruins than Better than Life or Marooned. As far as Rimmer was concerned, it *was* his biological father who died. And Lecturer Rimmer still raised Rimmer as his own.

    #233778
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    lister wasn’t talking about his biological father in Better Than Life to be fair. so is it such a big deal that Rimmer wasn’t either

    #233780
    Dax101
    Participant

    Well really it shouldn’t change anything. Lecturer Rimmer is the one that raised him so technically would always be seen as his father.

    And personally i prefer that family dynamic being what made rimmer who he is rather than the idea thats its just part of his fathers genes.

    #233792
    flanl3
    Participant

    he’s a complete bastard, maybe the most bastardy he’s ever been.

    I’m fairly certain that that’s the literal point of the father reveal.

    #233798

    That’s the point. Rimmer, who is dead, finds out that his father, who is dead, is not really his father, but Dungo, who is dead.

    It can’t go anywhere. It’s a meaningless plot reveal. Why do I want to justify it? I think it’s shite.

    It clearly isn’t meaningless in the context of the episode

    #233800
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    I don’t see how the revelation of Rimmer’s dad ruins than Better than Life or Marooned.

    It ruins neither, that’s not what I’m saying, I just think it lessens there importance in the series as a whole.

    #233810
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    You’re right, if someone told me that my dad wasn’t my dad, it’d definitely lessen the importance of his influence on my life.

    #233817
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Ok, the thing it’s parodying is obviously the Vader reveal in The Empire Strikes Back.

    The Vader reveal has lasting ramifications for the character, is integral to the plot of the subsequent episodes and makes you re-evaluate what’s previously been established. This is a shining example of a plot-twist.

    The Rimmer reveal does none of this. It’s there to parody a scene, and to give Rimmer some motivation to do something five minutes later, whereupon the character is reset to default settings and casual viewers can forget about the whole thing.

    #233825
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    The reveal isn’t “there to parody a scene”, it’s there as a core part of Rimmer’s story in the episode. The parody element is just an execution detail.

    Ultimately, the Rimmer Sr. reveal was never portrayed as something that would fundamentally change Rimmer as a person in the long term, and it worked well for the episode it was in, so it was worth doing.

    Because let’s be real: Red Dwarf is not a space opera, it’s a sitcom. While the sitcom format isn’t immune to characters developing over time, it’s also expected that characters will stay more or less the same, and that not every major event or revelation that occurs will arbitrarily change a character’s personality in the long term.

    Did Rimmer’s experience of requited love on the Holoship fundamentally change him? Did Lister’s experience of giving birth to twins and then having to give them up fundamentally change him? Did Kryten’s time as a human fundamentally change him? Did Rimmer regaining the ability to touch things after years of essentially being a ghost fundamentally change him? Did Rimmer’s experience with his other self in Me^2 fundamentally change him? Did Rimmer dying and coming back as a being of pure light in the first place fundamentally change him?

    OK, the answer to that last one is “yes” obviously, but it’s still not as immediate or major as you might expect.

    It just seems like you’re picking on this character development in particular for not having more obvious lasting consequences, when there’s no particular reason why it should.

    After all, failing to grow as a person despite being given ample opportunity for continued introspection is just who Rimmer is.

    (I do think that him having a secret message from his dad stashed away all this time was a pretty lazy way to do the reveal, though.)

    #233826
    Dax101
    Participant

    >Ultimately, the Rimmer Sr. reveal was never portrayed as something that would fundamentally change Rimmer as a person in the long term

    Well thats how many people took it. which is probably because it was executed in a way that gave the impression it was gonna have a lasting influence on Rimmer.

    But really it was likely just something to give the show a resolution of sorts in case there wasn’t another series… course then there was.

    The risk really comes down to unraveling Rimmers character since if something drives the character to be a certain way and then you take that away… then you kinda expect thats gonna have big effect on the character. but really it didn’t and i kinda glad about that.

    #233827

    Although it is given a touch more weight than most of the other examples Flap Jack suggested, I do agree that on the whole it’s something that was written for the episode and little else. Too much character growth and the characters stop being themselves.

    #233831
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    >Too much character growth and the characters stop being themselves.

    what about Kryten though? in Series 3 he’s just a droid following orders, but Lister teaches him how to be human and by Series 7 he is almost a completely different character.

    same goes for Lister, the characters change a lot over the course of the series.

    #233836

    Indeed, but those are subtle growths over the course of several series, rather than one event completely changing them.

    If anything, Kryten is a good example of how not to do it: in VII, his reaction to Kochanski being aboard is so strong that it makes him barely recognisable as the character from III-VI, and that’s generally regarded as an unpopular change.

    Rimmer’s low self-confidence and reaching beyond his grasp as a result of his upbringing and his own neuroses responding to his upbringing, these are absolutely key parts of the character that haven’t really changed over the course of the show. Lose that, and you lose Rimmer. It might be doable in a long running serialised drama, but in a character-driven sitcom, the characters have to remain largely the same for it to work.

    #233844
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >The reveal isn’t “there to parody a scene”, it’s there as a core part of Rimmer’s story in the episode.

    I’m glad we had that key scene in Out of Time that rewrote Rimmer’s backstory to explain why he wanted to fight. Oh, there wasn’t one. And the episode wasn’t any better or any worse for it.

    The reveal is clumsy (“Let’s bring this item along, which I haven’t mentioned before but is incredibly important to me”) and isn’t required for the story ; same as the godawful scene in the classroom at the beginning of the episode that’s clearly been shot in one of the rooms above the studio.

    #233846
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    OK, to be fair, I was being a touch disingenuous with my response. I don’t think anyone seriously wanted Rimmer to come out of The Beginning a completely humble, generous, nice guy. What they want is a subtle softening of Rimmer’s character over time, so that he’s back to being about as likable as he was in the latter Grant/Naylor era.

    However, it seems to me that such a softening is wanted regardless of circumstance, and The Beginning is just being latched onto as a potential “logical explanation” for it happening. That’s a bit different to a softening being outright required as a consequence of The Beginning.

    Imagine, if you will, The Beginning never happened (!), but over the course of Series XI and XII Rimmer had gradually become a lot less of a bastard, would anyone be going “This doesn’t make any sense! Nothing specific happened to cause this!”? I don’t think they would; they’d just accept Rimmer’s character subtly changing as a natural effect of being around the same people for long enough and going through sci-fi adventures in general.

    So, I think we should be able to express dissatisfaction with Rimmer’s characterisation without feeling the need to blame The Beginning.

    #233847
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    I’m glad we had that key scene in Out of Time that rewrote Rimmer’s backstory to explain why he wanted to fight. Oh, there wasn’t one. And the episode wasn’t any better or any worse for it.

    Ah, the curse of “replying without refreshing the page in a while” strikes again!

    Just to address this particular point, the comparison with Out of Time seems unfair. In Out of Time, Rimmer receives new information – that in the future he completely crosses the line and starts palling around with Hitler – and this inspires him to stand up and fight back. In The Beginning, Rimmer receives new information – that his dad isn’t who he thought he was – and this inspires him to come up with a plan to beat the simulants. It doesn’t matter that one is technically “rewritten backstory” and one isn’t, because in both episodes Rimmer is given some fresh insight into his identity which upsets the way he sees himself.

    #233848
    Dax101
    Participant

    >So, I think we should be able to express dissatisfaction with Rimmer’s characterisation without feeling the need to blame The Beginning.

    Well really there is gradual character change over time and there is the flick of a switch where Rimmer mindset is meant to change based on what he has learnt about himself. which is what the idea of the beginning seems to suggest.

    In the beginning he was told he father was actually an Imbecile gardener with a crappy heritage and not the one he was trying to live up to all these years. he then talks about how much of a weight its taken off his mind and by the end if calls himself a working class hero… yeah none of that needs to say he has to change but its easy to see why this development may expect some kind of change in Rimmer.

    Again i am glad it didn’t though.

    #233849

    same as the godawful scene in the classroom at the beginning of the episode that’s clearly been shot in one of the rooms above the studio.

    It isn’t “godawful” tho, I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about

    #233850
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    In Out of Time everybody Fucking Dies which I would say is a shock equal to or on par to finding out about your biological father

    #233851
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >It isn’t “godawful” tho, I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about

    It’s called a difference of opinion, dear.

    #233852
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    My favourite thing about the classroom scene is the terrible fan edit on YouTube that makes it ten times worse by ruining the “baboon four eyes” reveal by showing it to us twice

    Apologies if it’s your fan edit btw

    #233853
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Actually it shows the note before that twice I think, I don’t remember

    #233854

    It’s called a difference of opinion, dear.

    I’d be able to understand the opinion if you elaborated on it, is it purely just because it looks like it got shot in a room above the studio? Did you not like the acting by the teenage Rimmer? Do you think it doesn’t add to the episode?

    #233855
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    >My favourite thing about the classroom scene is the terrible fan edit on YouTube that makes it ten times worse by ruining the “baboon four eyes” reveal by showing it to us twice

    i just took a look at that fanedit. it’s rather shit from what little i bothered to watch of it imo

    #233856
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Some fan edits are just really bonkers with regards to what they find funny/offensive, and the fact that they don’t really have much outside of the episode itself to work with means all the cuts feel pretty awkward. There was one fan edit of Fathers & Suns which removed the lines about Rimmer wanting the new computer to have big tits because it was offensive, and it just left me thinking, who is this person? Then there was one which leaves in the “this place is a total shithole” line from that one X smeg up, which is funny I guess, but it’s funny AS a smeg up. Then there’s the one that changes “slag” to “trollop” but tries to merge the two takes together, leaving in an awkward edit, and leaving me thinking… how is trollop better than slag?

    #233857
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    yeah, there are some really weird fanedits, and that The Beginning/Fathers and Suns combo one is the weirdest by far. why would you try to combine two separate episodes into one? and yeah, i dont know why would anyone be offended by Rimmer wanting the computer to have big tits. the way they’ve edited it out still leave in the punchline of Kryten going “aha, i really like that frame size don’t you?” so its all incredibly awkward and strange

    there’s one edit somewhere by the same guy that inexplicably cuts Give And Take down to 24 minutes…why? why would you cut anything from that episode at all, and why specifically 24 minutes? is he planning to air it on a half-hour TV slot and needs to leave 6 minutes for adverts?

    there was quite a good fanedit by someone of Only The Good on Dailymotion i saw a few times called “Every Dog…” which although it vastly improves the episode by cutting the Talia scenes and restoring the original ending, but bizarrely it’s all been weirdly cropped so it can be in widescreen. what’s up with that? it’s still much better than the actual episode though so I guess its fine

    #233858
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    >why would you try to combine two separate episodes into one?
    There’s a joke in there, somewhere.

    I guess both episodes have vaguely similar themes regarding parenthood? It still isn’t a decision that makes much sense, given that both episodes have beginnings, middles and ends which are hardly interchangeable and any attempt to mesh the two together will ruin the flow of both.

    I watched a fan edit of Attack of the Clones called the anti-cheese edit which tries to take out as much of the cheese, padding and general badness of Episode II as much as it can, and for the most part it was surprisingly good – it made me enjoy Attack of the Clones – but a couple edits were really awkward. They gave Jar Jar a really deep, alien voice with subtitles to tell you what he was saying, and they cut out the “I hate sand” line so that the film (noticeably) skips straight to them kissing. The first change sticks out because you know what Jar Jar is supposed to sound like and he doesn’t even say/do anything particularly annoying in AotC, and the second change is really awkward because the footage jumps noticeably and the music doesn’t flow, but at least with those edits you can appreciate what the creator was trying to do.

    I also saw a fan edit of Destiny of the Daleks, which makes it feature length (fair enough), but also crops it into widescreen, which just makes me feel really uncomfortable and like everything is too close. They at least did it properly, re-framing every shot rather than just cutting the top and bottom off, so A for effort.

    #233859
    Me Own Stunts
    Participant

    Regarding Rimmer’s revelation in The Beginning, I think some character interest could have been derived from Rimmer attempting to self-identify as working class, and Lister rejecting that (in the same way he rejected Kryten’s dishonesty about being a true human in DNA). That would have been interesting because we’d have seen that actually Rimmer *does* silently and begrudgingly respect Lister in certain ways (his authenticity and his happiness), as briefly witnessed in Thanks For The Memory. And we would have seen that Rimmer’s neuroses can’t be magically erased just by understanding his biological father wasn’t Lecturer Rimmer.

    The main problem I had with the end of series 10 is that, along with the end of series 6, it shows that there’s some desire from the writer(s) to push Rimmer towards bravery, albeit briefly, just to see what happens to him. But then in both instances it’s also obvious that there’s no depth to the tease. The best development should have been in series 7, where they could have linked Rimmer saving the crew in Out of Time to his decision to take on the mantle of Ace. But instead they buried the former strand, and the latter came out of nowhere.

    I suspect there will be at least one more moment of Rimmer needing to discover his potential courage, selflessness and bravery, but it’s clear that there’s no natural step after this that Doug wants to commit to. Not that he particularly should, of course, but it means we’re slightly within Simpsons character-stasis territory whenever he ignores it entirely.

    #233860
    bloodteller
    Blocked

    >The best development should have been in series 7, where they could have linked Rimmer saving the crew in Out of Time to his decision to take on the mantle of Ace. But instead they buried the former strand, and the latter came out of nowhere.

    to be fair though, his actions in Out Of Time do affect his behaviour in VII. in Tikka To Ride he takes the whole time-travel venture rather seriously and is very responsible about it all- pointing out they shouldn’t use the time drive again, quietly reprimanding Lister when he messes up the timelines etc. he feels like a much more serious and leader-ey Rimmer than before in VII.

    #233861
    Me Own Stunts
    Participant

    I’ve said it before, but giving Rimmer brave moments at the end of a series is akin to the way Scrooge becomes a more generous person by the end of A Christmas Carol. It creates a feel-good ending, but it can’t really be followed up satisfyingly because nobody wants to see the ongoing adventures of brave Rimmer or generous Scrooge. But also nobody wants to see a sequel where Scrooge reverts back to being miserly. It creates an ‘end’, not a tantalising tease for what will happen next.

    Which is why I think it would have been interesting at the start of series 11 to explore Rimmer’s misplaced notion that being more like Lister might make him happier.

    Character stuff.

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