We say good things about the Dave-era

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  • #232919

    Bargain Bin Holly

    Here’s one, I like Lister’s custom vest he sometimes wears that has all the four main character’s faces on it in Series XI and XII.

    #232921

    flanl3

    It brought us the incredible “spit on her wrist” joke. I don’t think I’ve ever laughed harder.

    #232924

    Piplup2003

    Mark Dexter. Ryan Gage. Need I say more about these two?

    #232934

    Ben Saunders

    Some of the model shots are quite nice

    #232938

    bloodteller

    i liked The Beginning and Give & Take and Cured, those were quite good.

    the sets are lovely too, especially in XI and XII.

    #232941

    Flap Jack

    There’s not much I can say here, because while I like the Dave era a lot, the things I like about it aren’t unique to it, so I’d just be saying “I like this episode”, “Oh, and that episode”, “This bit was funny” etc.

    #232943

    Ben Saunders

    The time loop revelation in Give & Take is really rather good, as is all of the time travel stuff in it really, and is definitely some of the strongest writing we’ve seen from the Dave era, and would put up a good fight against some of the more beloved episodes of the original six series. Lister’s kidneys aside.

    #232944

    Ben Saunders

    The Dave era, while mediocre in (quite a lot of) places, every now and then affirms itself as worthy of being made, imo. The only episode I’ve ever finished and thought “I did not enjoy that” was Timewave.

    #232957

    International Debris

    Skipper made me laugh on first watch more than any other episode of Red Dwarf.

    #232961

    Dax101

    Series XI and XII look visually nice.

    Some of the ideas in X,XI and XII are ambitious and unique, but not always executed as well as they could be.

    XI and XII feels more energized and youthful after BTE and X felt abit tired.

    #232963

    Pete Part Three

    Series XI and Series XII were better than Series X which was better than Back to Earth, so I guess we’re getting somewhere.

    Were it not for the Dave era, I’d never have seen the show recorded live.

    It’s better than Over to Bill.

    Even if you hate Red Dwarf VIII, the BBC’s disinterest in the show is utterly baffling, and the success of the show on Dave shows how dumb this was.

    Seeing Red Dwarf advertised on the tube and on billboards is surreal but nice.

    It’s in HD and looks a lot better than the picture quality of BBC Dwarf.

    This website had something substantial to report on beyond the first 52 episodes, DVDs and Merchandise and it does so very well indeed, The live Dwarfcasts are great.

    The scene with Kryten’s showing invisible stuff to Lister in M-Corp is premium Dwarf and up there with some of the show’s best moments,

    Snacky!

    Anything’s better than Series VIII.

    #232964

    Darrell

    Trojan, Lemons, The Beginning, Krysis, Cured, M-Corp and Skipper are for me as good as any episodes of Red Dwarf ever made, and Back To Earth, Fathers And Suns, Officer Rimmer and Can Of Worms aren’t far off.

    (Btw, I have no interest in debating or arguing about this. I am saying I like some TV episodes. End of.)

    #232973

    Warbofrog

    I can’t credit the cast’s natural ageing to the Dave era, but I like when it’s addressed in the stories a lot, more of that would be great. Rimmer and Binks made gibes about the state of Lister’s health in the old days, but it’s not until Give & Take that he’s convincingly fucked.

    #232977

    Hamish

    > but it’s not until Give & Take that he’s convincingly fucked.

    Were we watching the same show?

    #232979

    Warbofrog

    Maybe it’s only in retrospect, but smoking and drinking “20s” Lister seems sprightly now, he’ll be fine. Maybe they should have gone with an older actor from the start like they’d intended, except now he’d be in his 70s and might not be up to it any more, or dead.

    #232984

    MANI506

    Ten years ago the show was dead, thanks to Dave there are 21 new episodes which hold up very well to the previous 52. I was pumped for Back To Earth, X and XI (which was bigger, better and smeggier for at least half the episodes) and by the time of XII I settled down and just enjoyed (mostly) six new episodes. Mr Rat made me giggle for a week. I still get a laugh out of ‘sometimes they sleep with me’ followed by ‘mmmmmmmmm!’

    #233005

    Ben Saunders

    The reveal of Mr. Rat just about broke me, Jesus Christ. The way it’s set up so you’re intently expecting -something- funny to appear, but then you get hit with Mr. Fucking Rat and you fall off your chair. Brilliant.

    #233022

    Ridley

    I like that simply because Kryten is the only one to say the character’s name, Mr. Rat is given an undue level of formality from fandom.

    #233025

    Dave

    Well, I mean, the others presumably just call him Rat.

    #233031

    Ben Saunders

    Lister doesn’t name him, at all? Odd.

    #233036

    Pete Part Three

    We got rid of the pencil.

    #233041

    GlenTokyo

    Didn’t get rid of it, just sharpened it.

    #233491

    bloodteller

    the Dave era is new Red Dwarf, which is better than no Red Dwarf. obviously the show can’t go on forever (it’s a miracle it’s lasted as long as it has) and while i personally would like to see the show come to an end one day, it is nice that we’re still getting new episodes and more adventures of the posse as they continue to drift directionless through space. the Dave era has been a bit hit-and-miss with some episodes being amazing and then some others being mediocre and then one of them being awful, but i think it’s definitely better to have a new series with a couple of dodgy eps than no new series at all. though if the show goes on much longer i will no longer be able to fit all the DVDs in my shelf. maybe i need a bigger shelf

    also- the poker face punchline of Cured was excellent.

    #233500

    flanl3

    The opening scene paying off has become one of the best parts of the Dave era, hasn’t it? A lot of the earlier bantery dialogue that seems like filler turns out to have actually meant something, and there’s something more satisfying about the show when it feels like more of the things they’ve done were done for a reason.

    #233505

    Hamish

    > there’s something more satisfying about the show when it feels like more of the things they’ve done were done for a reason.

    We all know that Dear Dave and the ending of Entangled “were done for a reason”.

    Sorry, sorry, we are supposed to be nice. I like Cured.

    #233506

    flanl3

    I’m not sure if you’ve deliberately missed my point or if I’m bad at explaining, but I suppose I’m more getting at the ‘XI beginning’ phenomenon, where, for example, Lister wakes up hungover only remembering having two beers in Give & Take, or in Samsara with the whole seemingly pointless dice scene that ends up having been caused by Samsara’s karma field.

    I guess maybe it is just more of an XI thing.

    Maybe that’s part of why XI is easily my favorite of the Dave ones and among my favorites of all of them.

    #233530

    Hamish

    > I’m not sure if you’ve deliberately missed my point or if I’m bad at explaining.

    No, no, I am just being a idiot for the sake of a weak joke. Like always.

    #233541

    Katydid

    I really have to insist large swathes of Series XII and more so Series XI are classic-era quality in terms of the enjoyment and rewatchability they have in my eyes. A bit different of a writing style, as you’d expect from one writer taking over the work of two, but I find myself going back to my XI/XII favorites incredibly often in a way I just don’t for Series VII-X. They also have that newness that Series I-VI obviously don’t, as I’ve been watching them since tweenhood. I haven’t regularly watched VIII in many years, but I watched so much Red Dwarf then I still feel like I remember it word for word in a way I’m only starting to for the new eps.

    #233542

    Katydid

    For the record I’m abnormally good at memorizing TV quotes, in case it sounded like I’m pouring over the episodes repeatedly in a deliberate attempt to memorize them.

    I don’t need no idiot boards noways, you scaly old piscines.

    #233546

    bloodteller

    >pouring over the episodes

    pouring what over them?

    #233549

    Bargain Bin Holly

    >pouring what over them?

    Maple syrup and taramasalata

    #233550

    Katydid

    Literally every time I use that phrase people make that joke.

    I never learn, do I?

    #233568

    flanl3

    Yes, it might help if you talked about poring over things instead.

    #233576

    bloodteller

    yeah it’s spelt “poring” which is why everyone makes that joke

    #233582

    Dave

    By the way, you spell it ‘poring’.

    #233584

    International Debris

    pouring over the episodes

    I think you mean ‘poring’.

    #233589

    bloodteller

    it’s also spelt “poring”. did anyone mention that yet?

    #233591

    Dave

    This joke is getting poring.

    #233592

    Plastic Percy

    I’m just glad the show now doesn’t end on a cliffhanger.

    #233639

    Hamish

    American gets in trouble for forgetting to drop the letter “u” in lingual shocker.

    #233724

    Katydid

    Yeah, well, we saved your ass in World War II.

    #233727

    Dave

    Yeah, well, we saved your arse in World War III.

    #233731

    flanl3

    >Yeah, well, we saved your ass in World War II.

    As an American, I know this isn’t actually true.

    #233732

    bloodteller

    i wasn’t in World War II

    #233733

    GlenTokyo

    I saved an ass during WWI

    That donkey was in a bad way before I got there in the summer of ’14.

    #233734

    bloodteller

    you must be very old, glen

    #233735

    Dave

    Five long years, he wore this watch, up his ass.

    #233736

    Stabbim the Skutter

    The Beginning is an amazing episode and one of my favourites. I’m happy we got XI and XII, but I would be totally satisfied if The Beginning were the grand series finale.

    #233741

    Dax101

    I am one of those people who don’t get all the fuss made over The Beginning. Yes it probably feels like one of the more stronger character-driven episodes of the dave era but it still suffers from a fair amount of issues IMO.

    The Rimmers dad stuff i still think it was a huge mistake. after years and many series of hearing about Rimmers father and the sort of person he was and how alot of that could contribute to how Rimmer turned out Doug throws this gardener father thing into the mix like it has some strong relevance to who Rimmer is and that just feels like taking years of gradual development and resolving it as quickly as possible with one shock reveal

    The simulants got very goofy and were definitely weak villains.

    And sorry Doug the writing at the end with Rimmer being all heroic was probably supposed to be cool and Rimmers best moment… but somehow it felt very awkward.

    #233744

    Plastic Percy

    Mr. Rimmer still made him what he was. Dungo was his father, but Mr. Rimmer was his dad. And he still does the prickish thing of “you’re a success now, but fuck off”.

    #233745

    Dax101

    See thats where things get abit twisted though with the revelation. not only did Doug throw in some jokes to almost state that Rimmers shortcomings are hereditary, but many fans have since asked the question whether Dungo was also howards father… and why? well because Howard was shock revealed to be just like Rimmer and the message of the episode obvious came out to many as Father was a loser because he was his fathers son.

    Maybe Doug didn’t mean it to come out that way but that was the way it was executed.

    #233746

    Dax101

    *Rimmer was a loser

    #233747

    Ben Saunders

    Suddenly having Rimmer’s biological father revealed as somebody else doesn’t delete the fact that he -was- raised by the other man and still went through everything he went through up to and including that point. In exactly the same way that undoing the Time War doesn’t undo 9, 10 or 11’s character development in Doctor Who. It adds dramatic irony to a viewer re-watching old events, but it doesn’t change what the character experiences, does or feels in any way retroactively. Rimmer in Series III still thinks is father is who he thought it was and still acts accordingly.

    #233749

    bloodteller

    i don’t mind Rimmer’s dad not actually being his dad- i think it works in a way, that he’s spent all these years trying to exorcise this man’s disapproval and hear him say “well done” just once and it turns out he wasn’t even his dad. i think that’s quite an interesting idea, that after everything he’s done to try and be someone his father would be proud of- he was that person all along, Dungo would’ve been really happy that Rimmer made it as far as he did.

    on the other hand, it does kind of soil the excellent Observation Dome scene in Better Than Life. and i absolutely love that scene

    #233750

    Bargain Bin Holly

    >See thats where things get abit twisted though with the revelation. not only did Doug throw in some jokes to almost state that Rimmers shortcomings are hereditary, but many fans have since asked the question whether Dungo was also howards father… and why? well because Howard was shock revealed to be just like Rimmer and the message of the episode obvious came out to many as Father was a loser because he was his fathers son.

    I don’t understand what you are saying really. It wasn’t biological but since the Rimmer brothers were all raised by Lecturer Rimmer they could’ve just as easily picked up his obsession with military success as being blood-relatives with him. I assume it’d be all too possible to inherit certain traits one could’ve grown-up with without having to be related to the ones influencing it.

    >The simulants got very goofy and were definitely weak villains.

    I think this complaint that the simulants from The Beginning are too goofy is way overblown, they are never portrayed as incompetent, Hogey only managed to steal the map while they were asleep and they quickly located him soon afterwards. The jokes regarding the simulants in that episode are the simulant underlings bending-over backwards to the Dominator’s every command no matter how ridiculous or nonsensical the demand is.

    >And sorry Doug the writing at the end with Rimmer being all heroic was probably supposed to be cool and Rimmers best moment… but somehow it felt very awkward.

    I disagree wholeheartedly, it was one of the best moments in the Dave-era so far.

    #233751

    bloodteller

    actually never mind, lister’s dad mentioned in that scene isn’t lister’s real dad either. i guess it evens out

    #233752

    Bargain Bin Holly

    >on the other hand, it does kind of soil the excellent Observation Dome scene in Better Than Life. and i absolutely love that scene

    Not for me, Rimmer still experienced that, even if it wasn’t by his biological father he still grew-up being mistreated by him and having a shit childhood. I thought the opening scene at the school was a good demonstration of that.

    #233753

    Ben Saunders

    This is just a nature vs. nurture argument in the context of Red Dwarf, lol

    #233754

    Dax101

    >I don’t understand what you are saying really. It wasn’t biological but since the Rimmer brothers were all raised by Lecturer Rimmer they could’ve just as easily picked up his obsession with military success as being blood-relatives with him. I assume it’d be all too possible to inherit certain traits one could’ve grown-up with without having to be related to the ones influencing it.

    Well the Original idea was that Rimmers Brothers were all successful and Rimmer always fell behind which had been a question that had been answered in subtle ways whether it was dimension jump or other episodes that told you abit about how Rimmers family life.

    Howard apparently is just another Rimmer now, but presumably the other 2 are still successful.

    I think what the father reveal does actually is ask MORE questions then it answers. and the question it might be trying to answer isn’t as good as the years of bit by bit explanation the show has gone through in exploring Rimmer.

    And there are at least 2 jokes in the episode that are aimed at saying oh that explains everything and i feel like that was misplaced.

    But then i also feel like Dougs message about Lecturer Rimmer is also an odd one since the guy is obviously meant to be this demon that is holding Rimmer mentally back and Rimmer has to detach that expectation… but if you go by what Lecturer Rimmer said then you come to the conclusion that he wasn’t actually a bad guy since the only reason he didn’t tell Rimmer he wasn’t his father is because he didn’t wanna hold him back from reaching his dreams… but then you kinda get the sense that the message is that Lecturer Rimmer is bad.

    And there are fans who have said oh well that explains why Lecturer Rimmer always treating Rimmer bad… but it was already said in BTL that Rimmers dad treated him and his brothers the same way so this reveal really creates alot of assumptions that is ok aslong as you don’t reflect too much back.

    #233755

    bloodteller

    there’s a deleted scene from Rimmerworld which states all of the 3 other Rimmer brothers went insane and killed the crews of their ships too, so the other brothers being failiures was a thing long before Trojan

    #233756

    Bargain Bin Holly

    Well not really since it got deleted

    #233759

    Pete Part Three

    I don’t need explanations about why Rimmer is a failure. I like the thought of him, the youngest of 4 brothers, just being the runt of the litter and his parents realising far too late that the hardline they took with the other three essentially broke Arnold. Rimmer failing to “fight back” is what led him to down one route (whereas Ace took the other).

    Rob and Doug brought up the idea of Rimmer and Lister being brothers in Back to Reality with the idea that this would induce despair in Rimmer (as their social standings have switched, yet their mother is shared… and I’d wager that if it was anyway believable than Chris and Craig could be “full” brothers it would have been written as both parents) and rob him his defence mechanism of irrationally blaming his parents. It’s bizarre that, then in deleted scenes, novels and finally the ‘canon’ itself, they repeatedly begin tampering with Rimmer’s childhood. Suddenly Rimmer’s failings are explained in various ways and start to become understandable. Rimmer’s not iiratuonal because all his brothers have emotional problems, Rimmer’s a screw-up because he did not have a chip in his head, Rimmer had a different Dad to his brothers… etc.

    The idea of all the Rimmer boys being secretly shit is awful. I’ll let Howard off because I rather like Trojan and Mark Dexter’s perfromance, but it does start muddling things up, especially with the Dungo reveal (which is the worst kind of twist, as it means fuck all, has no lasting consequence and hasn’t been mentioned since).

    #233760

    Bargain Bin Holly

    >hasn’t been mentioned since

    “I got some issues with my father, who I discovered wasn’t my father, also I got some issues with my mother, who very sadly, is my mother.”

    #233761

    Pete Part Three

    *has been mentioned once in a throwaway line*

    #233762

    Bargain Bin Holly

    What would you consider to be some lasting consequences that would justify the twist

    #233771

    Hamish

    Rimmer takes up gardening?

    #233772

    Pete Part Three

    >What would you consider to be some lasting consequences that would justify the twist

    That’s the point. Rimmer, who is dead, finds out that his father, who is dead, is not really his father, but Dungo, who is dead.

    It can’t go anywhere. It’s a meaningless plot reveal. Why do I want to justify it? I think it’s shite.

    #233773

    Flap Jack

    I just wanted to jump in and say that I am absolutely cool with both the Howard reveal and the Dad reveal.

    Regarding Howard, it was Rimmer’s idea of his brothers, and his treatment as the youngest child, which created his inferiority-superiority complex, not the reality of them. The revelation in Trojan that Howard is also a failure in life is a good opportunity for some self-reflection on Rimmer’s part (not that they do anything with it), but ultimately it’s not going to change Rimmer’s core personality, because his neuroses are already too well ingrained.

    Regarding Rimmer Sr., the revelation that he isn’t Rimmer’s biological father justifiably doesn’t change who Rimmer is in the long term, because his character was shaped by his upbringing, not his genes. However, given how entrenched the idea of “good breeding” would be in the kind of middle-to-upper class background Rimmer came from, the Dungo reveal does make Rimmer reconsider his feelings about his identity and agency, even if only for one episode, and I appreciate that.

    #233774

    bloodteller

    you’d think Rimmer learning who his real dad is would have made him a better and more confident person who’s happy with his place in life. sadly this only seems to apply in The Beginning, as in XI/XII he’s a complete bastard, maybe the most bastardy he’s ever been. definitely feels a bit odd, that.

    maybe he got a bit full of himself after learning his real dad would be proud of him, and he’s a bastard in XI/XII because he thinks he’s great. but even then it doesn’t feel right.

    #233776

    GlenTokyo

    Rimmer’s dad and Howard reveals are both bleedin’ awful. Former shits on what went previous, particularly some nice bits of proper acting in Better Than Life and Marooned, latter is just crap and I know everyone loves him but Mark Dexter overplayed Howard to a ridiculous degree, completely not believable as an actual person.

    Positive: that bit where Lister is locked out and flies into the scoop, I like that bit.

    #233777

    cwickham

    I don’t see how the revelation of Rimmer’s dad ruins than Better than Life or Marooned. As far as Rimmer was concerned, it *was* his biological father who died. And Lecturer Rimmer still raised Rimmer as his own.

    #233778

    bloodteller

    lister wasn’t talking about his biological father in Better Than Life to be fair. so is it such a big deal that Rimmer wasn’t either

    #233780

    Dax101

    Well really it shouldn’t change anything. Lecturer Rimmer is the one that raised him so technically would always be seen as his father.

    And personally i prefer that family dynamic being what made rimmer who he is rather than the idea thats its just part of his fathers genes.

    #233792

    flanl3

    he’s a complete bastard, maybe the most bastardy he’s ever been.

    I’m fairly certain that that’s the literal point of the father reveal.

    #233798

    Bargain Bin Holly

    That’s the point. Rimmer, who is dead, finds out that his father, who is dead, is not really his father, but Dungo, who is dead.

    It can’t go anywhere. It’s a meaningless plot reveal. Why do I want to justify it? I think it’s shite.

    It clearly isn’t meaningless in the context of the episode

    #233800

    GlenTokyo

    I don’t see how the revelation of Rimmer’s dad ruins than Better than Life or Marooned.

    It ruins neither, that’s not what I’m saying, I just think it lessens there importance in the series as a whole.

    #233810

    Ben Paddon

    You’re right, if someone told me that my dad wasn’t my dad, it’d definitely lessen the importance of his influence on my life.

    #233817

    Pete Part Three

    Ok, the thing it’s parodying is obviously the Vader reveal in The Empire Strikes Back.

    The Vader reveal has lasting ramifications for the character, is integral to the plot of the subsequent episodes and makes you re-evaluate what’s previously been established. This is a shining example of a plot-twist.

    The Rimmer reveal does none of this. It’s there to parody a scene, and to give Rimmer some motivation to do something five minutes later, whereupon the character is reset to default settings and casual viewers can forget about the whole thing.

    #233825

    Flap Jack

    The reveal isn’t “there to parody a scene”, it’s there as a core part of Rimmer’s story in the episode. The parody element is just an execution detail.

    Ultimately, the Rimmer Sr. reveal was never portrayed as something that would fundamentally change Rimmer as a person in the long term, and it worked well for the episode it was in, so it was worth doing.

    Because let’s be real: Red Dwarf is not a space opera, it’s a sitcom. While the sitcom format isn’t immune to characters developing over time, it’s also expected that characters will stay more or less the same, and that not every major event or revelation that occurs will arbitrarily change a character’s personality in the long term.

    Did Rimmer’s experience of requited love on the Holoship fundamentally change him? Did Lister’s experience of giving birth to twins and then having to give them up fundamentally change him? Did Kryten’s time as a human fundamentally change him? Did Rimmer regaining the ability to touch things after years of essentially being a ghost fundamentally change him? Did Rimmer’s experience with his other self in Me^2 fundamentally change him? Did Rimmer dying and coming back as a being of pure light in the first place fundamentally change him?

    OK, the answer to that last one is “yes” obviously, but it’s still not as immediate or major as you might expect.

    It just seems like you’re picking on this character development in particular for not having more obvious lasting consequences, when there’s no particular reason why it should.

    After all, failing to grow as a person despite being given ample opportunity for continued introspection is just who Rimmer is.

    (I do think that him having a secret message from his dad stashed away all this time was a pretty lazy way to do the reveal, though.)

    #233826

    Dax101

    >Ultimately, the Rimmer Sr. reveal was never portrayed as something that would fundamentally change Rimmer as a person in the long term

    Well thats how many people took it. which is probably because it was executed in a way that gave the impression it was gonna have a lasting influence on Rimmer.

    But really it was likely just something to give the show a resolution of sorts in case there wasn’t another series… course then there was.

    The risk really comes down to unraveling Rimmers character since if something drives the character to be a certain way and then you take that away… then you kinda expect thats gonna have big effect on the character. but really it didn’t and i kinda glad about that.

    #233827

    International Debris

    Although it is given a touch more weight than most of the other examples Flap Jack suggested, I do agree that on the whole it’s something that was written for the episode and little else. Too much character growth and the characters stop being themselves.

    #233831

    bloodteller

    >Too much character growth and the characters stop being themselves.

    what about Kryten though? in Series 3 he’s just a droid following orders, but Lister teaches him how to be human and by Series 7 he is almost a completely different character.

    same goes for Lister, the characters change a lot over the course of the series.

    #233836

    International Debris

    Indeed, but those are subtle growths over the course of several series, rather than one event completely changing them.

    If anything, Kryten is a good example of how not to do it: in VII, his reaction to Kochanski being aboard is so strong that it makes him barely recognisable as the character from III-VI, and that’s generally regarded as an unpopular change.

    Rimmer’s low self-confidence and reaching beyond his grasp as a result of his upbringing and his own neuroses responding to his upbringing, these are absolutely key parts of the character that haven’t really changed over the course of the show. Lose that, and you lose Rimmer. It might be doable in a long running serialised drama, but in a character-driven sitcom, the characters have to remain largely the same for it to work.

    #233844

    Pete Part Three

    >The reveal isn’t “there to parody a scene”, it’s there as a core part of Rimmer’s story in the episode.

    I’m glad we had that key scene in Out of Time that rewrote Rimmer’s backstory to explain why he wanted to fight. Oh, there wasn’t one. And the episode wasn’t any better or any worse for it.

    The reveal is clumsy (“Let’s bring this item along, which I haven’t mentioned before but is incredibly important to me”) and isn’t required for the story ; same as the godawful scene in the classroom at the beginning of the episode that’s clearly been shot in one of the rooms above the studio.

    #233846

    Flap Jack

    OK, to be fair, I was being a touch disingenuous with my response. I don’t think anyone seriously wanted Rimmer to come out of The Beginning a completely humble, generous, nice guy. What they want is a subtle softening of Rimmer’s character over time, so that he’s back to being about as likable as he was in the latter Grant/Naylor era.

    However, it seems to me that such a softening is wanted regardless of circumstance, and The Beginning is just being latched onto as a potential “logical explanation” for it happening. That’s a bit different to a softening being outright required as a consequence of The Beginning.

    Imagine, if you will, The Beginning never happened (!), but over the course of Series XI and XII Rimmer had gradually become a lot less of a bastard, would anyone be going “This doesn’t make any sense! Nothing specific happened to cause this!”? I don’t think they would; they’d just accept Rimmer’s character subtly changing as a natural effect of being around the same people for long enough and going through sci-fi adventures in general.

    So, I think we should be able to express dissatisfaction with Rimmer’s characterisation without feeling the need to blame The Beginning.

    #233847

    Flap Jack

    I’m glad we had that key scene in Out of Time that rewrote Rimmer’s backstory to explain why he wanted to fight. Oh, there wasn’t one. And the episode wasn’t any better or any worse for it.

    Ah, the curse of “replying without refreshing the page in a while” strikes again!

    Just to address this particular point, the comparison with Out of Time seems unfair. In Out of Time, Rimmer receives new information – that in the future he completely crosses the line and starts palling around with Hitler – and this inspires him to stand up and fight back. In The Beginning, Rimmer receives new information – that his dad isn’t who he thought he was – and this inspires him to come up with a plan to beat the simulants. It doesn’t matter that one is technically “rewritten backstory” and one isn’t, because in both episodes Rimmer is given some fresh insight into his identity which upsets the way he sees himself.

    #233848

    Dax101

    >So, I think we should be able to express dissatisfaction with Rimmer’s characterisation without feeling the need to blame The Beginning.

    Well really there is gradual character change over time and there is the flick of a switch where Rimmer mindset is meant to change based on what he has learnt about himself. which is what the idea of the beginning seems to suggest.

    In the beginning he was told he father was actually an Imbecile gardener with a crappy heritage and not the one he was trying to live up to all these years. he then talks about how much of a weight its taken off his mind and by the end if calls himself a working class hero… yeah none of that needs to say he has to change but its easy to see why this development may expect some kind of change in Rimmer.

    Again i am glad it didn’t though.

    #233849

    Bargain Bin Holly

    same as the godawful scene in the classroom at the beginning of the episode that’s clearly been shot in one of the rooms above the studio.

    It isn’t “godawful” tho, I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about

    #233850

    Ben Saunders

    In Out of Time everybody Fucking Dies which I would say is a shock equal to or on par to finding out about your biological father

    #233851

    Pete Part Three

    >It isn’t “godawful” tho, I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about

    It’s called a difference of opinion, dear.

    #233852

    Ben Saunders

    My favourite thing about the classroom scene is the terrible fan edit on YouTube that makes it ten times worse by ruining the “baboon four eyes” reveal by showing it to us twice

    Apologies if it’s your fan edit btw

    #233853

    Ben Saunders

    Actually it shows the note before that twice I think, I don’t remember

    #233854

    Bargain Bin Holly

    It’s called a difference of opinion, dear.

    I’d be able to understand the opinion if you elaborated on it, is it purely just because it looks like it got shot in a room above the studio? Did you not like the acting by the teenage Rimmer? Do you think it doesn’t add to the episode?

    #233855

    bloodteller

    >My favourite thing about the classroom scene is the terrible fan edit on YouTube that makes it ten times worse by ruining the “baboon four eyes” reveal by showing it to us twice

    i just took a look at that fanedit. it’s rather shit from what little i bothered to watch of it imo

    #233856

    Ben Saunders

    Some fan edits are just really bonkers with regards to what they find funny/offensive, and the fact that they don’t really have much outside of the episode itself to work with means all the cuts feel pretty awkward. There was one fan edit of Fathers & Suns which removed the lines about Rimmer wanting the new computer to have big tits because it was offensive, and it just left me thinking, who is this person? Then there was one which leaves in the “this place is a total shithole” line from that one X smeg up, which is funny I guess, but it’s funny AS a smeg up. Then there’s the one that changes “slag” to “trollop” but tries to merge the two takes together, leaving in an awkward edit, and leaving me thinking… how is trollop better than slag?

    #233857

    bloodteller

    yeah, there are some really weird fanedits, and that The Beginning/Fathers and Suns combo one is the weirdest by far. why would you try to combine two separate episodes into one? and yeah, i dont know why would anyone be offended by Rimmer wanting the computer to have big tits. the way they’ve edited it out still leave in the punchline of Kryten going “aha, i really like that frame size don’t you?” so its all incredibly awkward and strange

    there’s one edit somewhere by the same guy that inexplicably cuts Give And Take down to 24 minutes…why? why would you cut anything from that episode at all, and why specifically 24 minutes? is he planning to air it on a half-hour TV slot and needs to leave 6 minutes for adverts?

    there was quite a good fanedit by someone of Only The Good on Dailymotion i saw a few times called “Every Dog…” which although it vastly improves the episode by cutting the Talia scenes and restoring the original ending, but bizarrely it’s all been weirdly cropped so it can be in widescreen. what’s up with that? it’s still much better than the actual episode though so I guess its fine

    #233858

    Ben Saunders

    >why would you try to combine two separate episodes into one?
    There’s a joke in there, somewhere.

    I guess both episodes have vaguely similar themes regarding parenthood? It still isn’t a decision that makes much sense, given that both episodes have beginnings, middles and ends which are hardly interchangeable and any attempt to mesh the two together will ruin the flow of both.

    I watched a fan edit of Attack of the Clones called the anti-cheese edit which tries to take out as much of the cheese, padding and general badness of Episode II as much as it can, and for the most part it was surprisingly good – it made me enjoy Attack of the Clones – but a couple edits were really awkward. They gave Jar Jar a really deep, alien voice with subtitles to tell you what he was saying, and they cut out the “I hate sand” line so that the film (noticeably) skips straight to them kissing. The first change sticks out because you know what Jar Jar is supposed to sound like and he doesn’t even say/do anything particularly annoying in AotC, and the second change is really awkward because the footage jumps noticeably and the music doesn’t flow, but at least with those edits you can appreciate what the creator was trying to do.

    I also saw a fan edit of Destiny of the Daleks, which makes it feature length (fair enough), but also crops it into widescreen, which just makes me feel really uncomfortable and like everything is too close. They at least did it properly, re-framing every shot rather than just cutting the top and bottom off, so A for effort.

    #233859

    Me Own Stunts

    Regarding Rimmer’s revelation in The Beginning, I think some character interest could have been derived from Rimmer attempting to self-identify as working class, and Lister rejecting that (in the same way he rejected Kryten’s dishonesty about being a true human in DNA). That would have been interesting because we’d have seen that actually Rimmer *does* silently and begrudgingly respect Lister in certain ways (his authenticity and his happiness), as briefly witnessed in Thanks For The Memory. And we would have seen that Rimmer’s neuroses can’t be magically erased just by understanding his biological father wasn’t Lecturer Rimmer.

    The main problem I had with the end of series 10 is that, along with the end of series 6, it shows that there’s some desire from the writer(s) to push Rimmer towards bravery, albeit briefly, just to see what happens to him. But then in both instances it’s also obvious that there’s no depth to the tease. The best development should have been in series 7, where they could have linked Rimmer saving the crew in Out of Time to his decision to take on the mantle of Ace. But instead they buried the former strand, and the latter came out of nowhere.

    I suspect there will be at least one more moment of Rimmer needing to discover his potential courage, selflessness and bravery, but it’s clear that there’s no natural step after this that Doug wants to commit to. Not that he particularly should, of course, but it means we’re slightly within Simpsons character-stasis territory whenever he ignores it entirely.

    #233860

    bloodteller

    >The best development should have been in series 7, where they could have linked Rimmer saving the crew in Out of Time to his decision to take on the mantle of Ace. But instead they buried the former strand, and the latter came out of nowhere.

    to be fair though, his actions in Out Of Time do affect his behaviour in VII. in Tikka To Ride he takes the whole time-travel venture rather seriously and is very responsible about it all- pointing out they shouldn’t use the time drive again, quietly reprimanding Lister when he messes up the timelines etc. he feels like a much more serious and leader-ey Rimmer than before in VII.

    #233861

    Me Own Stunts

    I’ve said it before, but giving Rimmer brave moments at the end of a series is akin to the way Scrooge becomes a more generous person by the end of A Christmas Carol. It creates a feel-good ending, but it can’t really be followed up satisfyingly because nobody wants to see the ongoing adventures of brave Rimmer or generous Scrooge. But also nobody wants to see a sequel where Scrooge reverts back to being miserly. It creates an ‘end’, not a tantalising tease for what will happen next.

    Which is why I think it would have been interesting at the start of series 11 to explore Rimmer’s misplaced notion that being more like Lister might make him happier.

    Character stuff.

    #233862

    Me Own Stunts

    > to be fair though, his actions in Out Of Time do affect his behaviour in VII. in Tikka To Ride he takes the whole time-travel venture rather seriously and is very responsible about it all- pointing out they shouldn’t use the time drive again, quietly reprimanding Lister when he messes up the timelines etc. he feels like a much more serious and leader-ey Rimmer than before in VII.

    I feel like that was because the writers and Chris Barrie had respectively forgotten how to write and perform Rimmer, not because of a conscious decision to build on the series 6 cliffhanger. Plus Barrie was doing a more ‘dramatic’ performance due to the single camera / lack of live audience set-up.

    In fact the Tikka to Ride resolution to the cliffhanger completely ignores Rimmer’s involvement in it. They don’t say “Rimmer did something that resulted in us being saved”; they say “our future selves killed us”. This is why I was so disappointed by the first scenes of series 7 – I felt Doug had completely misunderstood what the Out of Time cliffhanger was about. For me the cliffhanger wasn’t about how the crew were still alive – I was completely expecting this to be hand-waved. I was interested in what the cliffhanger would mean for Rimmer’s future. And this was ignored, but with very little extra effort they could have built on that cliffhanger properly and made the transition into Ace a part of that.

    #233863

    International Debris

    There was one fan edit of Fathers & Suns which removed the lines about Rimmer wanting the new computer to have big tits because it was offensive

    This I find odd. I could understand it being removed because it’s a potentially good gag done very badly, in a clunky, predictable way, but the idea of removing Rimmer’s offensive views – given the fact that he’s a character at least partially defined by being a selfish dickhead – is really odd. He’s done and said worse than that.

    #233864

    Dax101

    >I felt Doug had completely misunderstood what the Out of Time cliffhanger was about. For me the cliffhanger wasn’t about how the crew were still alive – I was completely expecting this to be hand-waved. I was interested in what the cliffhanger would mean for Rimmer’s future.

    Oddly this one i don’t think really would have much of an effect on Rimmers character just because he had one heroic moment that was just that… of the moment. well unless he spends most of series 7 bragging about it.

    Even if you look at the Original ending to Out of time thats on the smegs up and deleted scenes with Kryten speaking of Rimmers heroics its Rimmer who modestly accepts it and moves on.

    Now you could argue that Doug kinda gave Rimmer no credit in Tikka to Ride because he said it was their future selves that destroyed the time drive instead of Rimmer… and that one is unfortunate.

    #233865

    clem

    I was half expecting the revelation about Rimmer’s father to be addressed in Officer Rimmer, especially because it’s mentioned very briefly in the previous episode. It seems right for Rimmer to become so snooty when he gets promoted but maybe Lister could have brought up the dad thing to get him to stop being such a condescending prick.

    #233866

    Pete Part Three

    >I’d be able to understand the opinion if you elaborated on it, is it purely just because it looks like it got shot in a room above the studio? Did you not like the acting by the teenage Rimmer? Do you think it doesn’t add to the episode?

    Well, I already said it adds nothing to the episode. But aside from that:

    * Characters talking to themselves to reveal exposition to the audience is crap. And when it’s already telling us stuff we’ve just been told it’s even worse (“First day of term, and I’m late”)

    * The acting is like a children’s TV show. Especially Young Rimmer’s “so embarrassing” exclamation, just so the audience is aware that Rimmer is embarrassed.

    * The experiment is repeated three times, just to hammer home the point…and then cuts before we get any kind of conclusion. What is it even saying? That Rimmer will go along with a crowd?

    * It’s been filmed on a budget of 20p and it shows.

    * Oh, yeah. It’s not funny.

    >Apologies if it’s your fan edit btw

    No, mine would be the one without that scene altogether.

    #233869

    Bargain Bin Holly

    The experiment is repeated three times, just to hammer home the point…and then cuts before we get any kind of conclusion.

    It’s repeated twice actually (unless you’re including the battle plan scene), and even then it doesn’t drag on. The scene doesn’t need any kind of added conclusion, it’d be like unnecessary padding; it’s purpose is to act as build-up towards the climax later in the plot.

    What is it even saying? That Rimmer will go along with a crowd?

    Evidently. Noticing this I think this ties nicely with the Simulants in a way, since they all act in unison to the Dominator’s orders they are only defeated by Rimmer thinking for himself.

    It’s been filmed on a budget of 20p and it shows.

    It may for you, but I think they worked well with what they had. They put good effort in making Rimmer’s father look like how he last appeared in Better Than Life; and the actor they got to play the teenage Rimmer looked the part. The classroom is fine for me, you can see some piping on the walls but I’ve seen classrooms like that irl. I liked the exterior shots they got of Io too, especially the planet shot. Overall, I feel the passion makes up for the lack of budget.

    #233871

    Dax101

    * The acting is like a children’s TV show. Especially Young Rimmer’s “so embarrassing” exclamation, just so the audience is aware that Rimmer is embarrassed.

    Its not so much the acting but more that Doug feels he needs to spell it out to the audience that Rimmer is feeling embarrassed at that moment..

    I agree i always found him saying that out loud in class as strange.

    #233872

    Me Own Stunts

    The look of the classroom was never a problem to me. Why wouldn’t a learning environment in the future continue to look more or less like the classrooms we have today?

    I was personally grateful for all the additional environments we saw in ‘The Beginning’. Series 10 generally felt too cramped to me, and not in a good, Series 1 way. Series 1 showed us a wide variety of spaces inside the ship, making it feel as vast as we were told, while in series 10 Red Dwarf itself felt like a tiny ship because we mostly saw only the living space, which combined living room, kitchen and bedroom into one space, a drive room that resembled a tiny cockpit, and a tiny bit of corridor that they kept obviously redressing in unimaginative ways.

    So yeah, even on their own terms the classroom, the simulant ship and the model sequences all make The Beginning into a highlight of series 10 to me, not a weak link.

    #233873

    bloodteller

    all futuristic classrooms need modems and speaking slide rules, obviously.

    and yeah the ship does feel very small in X.

    #233875

    International Debris

    This thread is very close to turning into We Say Bad Things About the Dave Era.

    #233878

    Me Own Stunts

    > This thread is very close to turning into We Say Bad Things About the Dave Era.

    I know what you mean but it’s a mixture of balanced feelings on the Dave Era. A thread that rigidly shows only positive or negative feelings can be quite boring.

    #233888

    Ben Saunders

    What is a classroom 200 years in the future supposed to look like? Most of X looks cheap anyway, singling out that particular “set” is a bit dubious

    #233892

    Pete Part Three

    That’s the point; it’s not a set. Series 1 was a lot better at repurposing the space around the studios as “locations”. I don’t think it’s dubious when when it’s evident *onscreen* that they were budget problems throughout X. It’s obviously a big concern when the model shoots come back looking shit, why isn’t the same care extended to this?

    >Overall, I feel the passion makes up for the lack of budget.

    Oh, that’s nice. They tried hard. I’ll let them off the fact that I think it’s shit. I’m sure they busted a gut making Timewave too, Timewave 2.

    Um…Snacky was good, I liked Snacky. Have I said that already?

    #233893

    Ben Saunders

    It’s very obvious in series 1 that they’re just running up and down the lighting gantry or whatever, and the outside of the ship in Confidence and Paranoia looks like arse. Also the sets are all really grey and cheap in case you hadn’t noticed. Tongue Tied being obviously set in a TV studio is dubious from the perspective of Cat but forgivable for being a blatant dream sequence. I don’t think it’s possible to make an argument against the final set seen in Series II where Lister finds out he’s pregnant looks like utter, utter shit.

    But I like the shows so I look past it.

    #233894

    Flap Jack

    While we’re on the subject of sets (and to segue into a more unabashed “good thing about the Dave era”), the set and costume design in Skipper was amazing.

    I’d be totally fine with a Series XIII where Red Dwarf looked as it did in that final parallel universe, and Rimmer is wearing his Series 1 outfit the entire time.

    #233895

    Ben Saunders

    It did look quite nice, I like how even though the corridors are obviously just redressed red ones it still works, and they shoot them slightly differently as well. The darker grey and the more sturdy material really makes it look better than Series 1.

    I guess that in (parallel) universe it makes perfect sense for the old corridors to look basically like the new ones, doesn’t it

    #233897

    Dax101

    Going back to his series 1 outfit full term would be going abit too far backwards for the show.

    The show really should be going forwards and not backwards.

    #233898

    bloodteller

    >It’s very obvious in series 1 that they’re just running up and down the lighting gantry or whatever

    but in Series I, i’m more immersed. although it is a lighting gantry, i can believe it’s a big fuck-off mining ship in the middle of deep space. in Series I the ship feels like a believable place.

    in X, it doesn’t much feel like they’re on spaceships at all. it just feels like they’re sat around on sets in a studio which kind of breaks the illusion a little.

    and to say a good thing about the Dave era, the Chinatown market chase scene was excellent

    #233899

    Ben Saunders

    Not to bang on about it, but now that I know what TV studios actually look like, it’s very obvious that parts of the Dwarf ship in V and Starbug in VI are just parts of the studio straight up used as locations, especially when they pan up and you can see the lights and stuff. Also, in the scene in Marooned where the camera looks up through the guitar-shaped hole in Rimmer’s trunk, you can see the studio lights. And then there’s that shot where they move the camera too far too the right and you can see off the set and almost into the bloody audience.

    There’s that story of the Who director who was fired for shooting directly up at the studio lights, using them as set dressing, because unions exist or something. Warrior’s Gate?

    It -does- bother me in Series V, a little, but not really VI. It also bothers me in The Three Doctors where we’re supposed to be in some anti-matter universe, but the camera pans too high and it turns out Omega’s domain is lit with BBC TV studio lighting.

    I don’t think X looks particularly realistic either but I’m not comfortable with giving earlier series a free pass for things I criticise later series for.

    #233900

    International Debris

    I do think X looks a bit shit. Not just the lighting and directing being very broad, but just the real lack of interesting sets and the repeated corridors. The more I watch I and II, the more obvious the reuse of various corridors becomes, but in general I’d say X is the time when Red Dwarf itself has felt the smallest. The drive room really doesn’t help, even after I’ve headcanoned the ‘auxiliary drive room on level 138’ line from Carnie’s Homecoming fanfic.
    Overall, it just doesn’t feel immersive.

    #233902

    bloodteller

    yeah the lighting is really not very good in Series X. it just looks really…wrong in a way I don’t know how to explain with words. there’s something about it that just makes it feel like actors wandering about on studio sets rather than characters on a massive mining ship in deep space. and it’s the only series where i get that feeling.

    the lighting was massively improved in XI/XII, at least. so i guess even the production people must have noticed it didn’t look too good in X.

    #233904

    Ben Saunders

    I got the “actors on a set” vibe recently from Demons & Angels, but yeah the lighting is very flat on X. Like the bridge on The Next Generation. Or almost any given 80s Doctor Who.

    Speaking of TNG, I’m still making my way through TOS right now, but I saw a clip of TNG S1 in a documentary and man, the alien planet studio set looked like it was just re-used from TOS. A single-colour, block green sky, polystyrene rocks etc. Which was fair enough in the 60s but you’d think they’d have made some progress in 20 years (I know TNG was pretty low budget though)

    #233905

    Hamish

    To be fair, I can see why an enclosed room on a mining ship might be lit in a way similar to an enclosed room in a television studio. It is less inexplicable than it would be in say a sitcom that was set in a terrestrial house instead.

    #233908

    Ben Saunders

    It makes more sense than everything being plunged in darkness/blueness like in XI and XII, but it doesn’t look better

    #233909

    International Debris

    I think the layout of the X bunkroom doesn’t help – it’s very stagey, and having a lot of brightly lit, static shots of it just adds to that. One of the strong points of XI and XII’s direction was the cameras actually getting further in, making you feel like you’re actually in there rather than watching from a distance.

    Comparing images of the original design and officers quarters, those two look a lot more cluttered and that makes them seem less ‘flat’ looking. Having stuff like the wardrobe, the communication screen at a severe angle to the bunk, etc. gives them a lot more depth and interest.

    #233910

    International Debris

    In keeping with the spirit of the thread title, though, I absolutely love the BtE bunk room. Wish we’d had more of that.

    #233912

    bloodteller

    generally BtE looks good visually, it’s really impressive especially when you consider the extremely tight budget.

    the bunkroom and the chinatown set were especially impressive though

    #233915

    Dave

    Yeah, the BtE bunkroom was a great take that took the best of the officers quarters and the original grey bunkroom and gave it a modern spin. The window looked great too.

    #233918

    International Debris

    Yeah, I love the way it felt both connected to earlier series and also fresh at the same time. And again, it felt slightly cluttered and cramped, which is frankly what a double bunk room on a mining ship should be. If you can afford to be living in a space as big as the X-XII room, you’re probably above double bunk-level.

    #233919

    Dave

    I reckon they got Kryten to knock a few sleeping quarters through and make them a giant bunkroom big enough to fit a studio audience.

    #233920

    Dax101

    The BTE bunkroom is fairly unimpressive to me. perhaps its because of BTE as a whole but i think i prefer the X-XII bunkroom

    The only thing that stands out to me about it is that its a 4 wall set. but then with the BTE bunkroom you would probably have to remove the Window part of the set since chances are thats where the audience would be looking in.

    #233921

    quinn_drummer

    The great thing about windows, Dax, is that they’re see through ;)

    #233922

    Dax101

    True but instead of stars outside the window there would be an audience ;p

    #233923

    quinn_drummer

    Drape a big black cloth over the audience with little eye holes cut out so they can see. The whites of their eyes will act as stars.

    Job done.

    #233924

    Dax101

    Alright, you got me there…

    #233926

    Dave

    And when the crew say or do something funny, the stars will vibrate. It’ll be like a visual laugh-track.

    #233930

    Plastic Percy

    It’s not Rimmer’s genetics from Dungo or Mr. Rimmer that makes him a failure, that was never the point.

    Rimmer is a failure because he’s an anal-retentive idiot raised by a military failure and a Bitch Queen from Hell.

    It’s just that by the standards of his father he is a failure, but by the standards of Dungo he is a success.

    #234110

    tombow

    I’ve only just gotton into the Dave era and I just finished X. I loved Rimmer being revealed as “working class” and winning a new respect from Lister. I’ve ordered XI and I’m hoping there’s some kind of different dynamic now.

    #234181

    Hamish

    Oh dear.

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