Your Unpopular Red Dwarf Opinions

[Piplup2003]

The title says it all. What opinions do you have about Red Dwarf that no-one else seems to agree on?

For me, it’s that VIII is my second favourite series (behind V) and that I prefer Chloë over Claire as Kochanski (this may be partially influenced by the fact that I’ve met Chloë).

And please, no arguing.

Topic

[Rushy]

Danny has gotten so much better as a performer, and the material Doug writes for him is better. 

After series 2, the amount of great Cat moments in the BBC run can be counted on one hand. 

If I’m truly honest, I kinda prefer Lister in the Dave era too. Although in this case, it’s probably because it feels more like Craig than Lister, and I love Craig. 

[Dax101]

Not sure about that.

[gerrydelasel]

The focus on pathos for example assumes bubble era is full of it,
which it isn’t.

Series 1 & 2 are overflowing with it. The observation dome scenes, in partiular, make me weep, not to mention thanks for the memory. And I sitll see loads of it up to series 6.

lets no pretend Series IV is different to series II or that VI is
different to any of the previous series.

I don’t understand this comment?

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I do think there is more pathos in th

[Dax101]

I do think there is more pathos in the BBC era. Series 2 and 4 had a fair amount. Series 4 is almost a moral of the week show. Then there is Holoship, Back to reality. I think the reason why it stands out so much when its done in the Dave era is because its done very little in the Dave era. Rimmer for example is often used as that character who is snooty and always gets whats coming to him at the end for it. When thats the chosen path for comedy, it doesnt really create much room for pathos.

[Rushy]

Fathers and Suns has more pathos than all of VI put together, and that’s a hill I’m willing to stub my toe on. 

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

> Series 1 & 2 are overflowing with it. The observation dome scenes, in partiular, make me weep, not to mention thanks for the memory. And I sitll see loads of it up to series 6.

examples of, doesn’t mean it’s full of it. I’d say there’s about as much in bubble era as there is Dave era. Point is the focus isn’t pathos. It’s comedy first, often but not always, with interesting character based stories. 

> I don’t understand this comment?

it’s just highlighting how the show has always done things differently and that a lot of the “differences” in the Dave era aren’t new 

[Warbodog]

That’s probably the most common fan criticism I’ve seen since I’ve been on the internet, it’s just not been common around these parts since the Dave era properly kicked off because we’ve been invested and appreciating the good bits we got (while not letting the worst bits off the hook).

While Series VII & VIII had a lot of bad creative decisions, I think the Dave era’s main problem was its nature as a largely nostalgia-driven continuation of a show into double figure seasons that had pretty much run its course in the 90s, more than a disinterested Rob Grant not being involved.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Here’s a controversial opinion for you

Red Dwarf’s comedy drama days started in series V and is worse for it and the worst series of the first 6.

I enjoy episodes from it, and think things like Holoship are genuinely brilliant, but it’s never a series I go to often in that era and the shows are more focused on the story (looking at you Inquisitor) than the comedy.

Also, much like series VIII is a reaction to series VII, series VI is a reaction to V and it funnier and overall more entertaining.

[Dax101]

Well Series VIII was indeed a reaction to Series VII, but thats more because fans seemed less impressed with how Series VII turned out.
Series VI isn’t in that respect an attempt to fix anything from Series 5. They had gone to america to do the US pilot in between V and VI, so they may have been influenced by that experience.

[Rushy]

At that point, they probably craved anything that would make the experience of writing Red Dwarf feel fresh. 

Getting rid of the ship, adopting American style writing, it’s the kind of gimmickry that seeps in when someone gets bored. 

We know Doug only wrote VII and VIII for the syndication, so he was mentally already moving on to the next big change: the movie. 

[Unrumble]

[Moonlight]

Quinn, explaining why VI is better than V by listing all the reasons why I like V better than VI.

That’s what Your Unpopular Red Dwarf Opinions is all about, Charlie Brown.

[Warbodog]

the shows are more focused on the story (looking at you Inquisitor) than the comedy.

You could say that about White Hole and Dimension Jump from IV. Quarantine is mainly about the comedy and I associate Holoship with being full of zingers, while the Rimmer love story is like Camille’s Kryten love story. Terrorform and Demons and Angels don’t have much of a story, they’re mainly mucking about in the dark without even making the serious points that DNA and Meltdown mixed with their frivolity. The Inquisitor and Back to Reality are mainly about the story (while still being funny). Justice averages out to technically be the ideal Red Dwarf episode by committee but seemingly no one’s favourite.

[Moonlight]

Justice is pretty high up for me.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Well Series VIII was indeed a reaction to Series VII, but thats more because fans seemed less impressed with how Series VII turned out.
Series VI isn’t in that respect an attempt to fix anything from Series 5. They had gone to america to do the US pilot in between V and VI, so they may have been influenced by that experience.

Is there anything in the record that VI is a direct influence from going to the US? Or is that more fan speculation? Either way the fact that VI goes more gag / comedy focused after a a more story heavy series is comparable to VIII vs VII was the point.

At that point, they probably craved anything that would make the experience of writing Red Dwarf feel fresh. 
Getting rid of the ship, adopting American style writing, it’s the kind of gimmickry that seeps in when someone gets bored. 
We know Doug only wrote VII and VIII for the syndication, so he was mentally already moving on to the next big change: the movie. 

He didn’t only write it for syndication. He wrote longer series to help sell it abroad which would indeed help get a movie made. But I don’t think there’s any suggestion Doug didn’t want to write them at all.

[Frank Smeghammer]

Still, it’s nice to be on a forum where I don’t get downvoted into a black hole for not liking reboot-era RD.

Only because we don’t have a voting system on replies. If we did I suspect you would have been “red-thumbed” into a coma

[Unrumble]

[Dave]

[Dax101]

 Is there anything in the record that VI is a direct influence from going to the US? 

Well the “its better to live one hour as a tiger” line in series 6 was from the 2nd US pilot that Rob and Doug put together. Its all speculative but i imagine whatever they thought the US pilot would become was still on their minds as they were likely just as invested at that time. So if none of that was carried over onto series 6 it would be more surprising.

But I don’t think there’s any suggestion Doug didn’t want to write them at all.

The Series 8 script book suggests he wasn’t that interested in continuing the show, but then someone told him that if they got to around 50 episodes they would have enough to potentially get a movie made. And looking at Series 7 and 8… you can kinda see Doug was always eyeing the movie. People think Kochanski was a replacement for Rimmer, but according to Doug, no, she was added because they needed a female main character to be part of the cast to help get a movie made.
Thats not to say he didn’t want to write them. But i dunno, Doug made some interesting decisions around that time with Series 7,8 and remastered

[Rushy]

Series VI relies so heavily on structure that I refuse to accept it’s not heavily American-influenced. 

The numerous running gags, the overreliance on the Starbug cockpit setup, the reuse of Legion’s opening for Emohawk. It feels very alien to the way the show was written before and after. 

[gerrydelasel]

People think Kochanski was a replacement for Rimmer, but according to
Doug, no, she was added because they needed a female main character to
be part of the cast to help get a movie made.

The mistake was trying to make her Kochanski. Don’t cast a posh English girl and then tell me she grew up in Glasgow and is Lister’s long lost love. That’s why I never liked her; I’m not that gullible. If they couldn’t get the original actress they should have made her into a new independent character, which would have been fine.
e.g. a better story line would have been that she was the woman rescued by Ace Rimmer in Stoke me a Clipper, before he jumped to their dimension, and he had to leave her with them so she was forever searching for a way back to her own dimension. Or something.

British sitcoms don’t have structure? That’s a new one.

[Dax101]

Yeah, but then you wouldn’t have the ex-gf dynamic to work with, and remember, this was all for the movie. That plot with Kochanski was likely going to be explored in a rebooted way, with presumably the same dynamic coming out of it. I imagine it just seemed like the most natural way to go to make it Kochanski and really test those waters.

I don’t think they tried to get Clare Grogan back. Probably felt Clare worked best in small doses and not so much a regular role.

Doug also added Kochanski to his novel, Last Human.

[Dave]

I don’t think they tried to get Clare Grogan back. Probably felt Clare worked best in small doses and not so much a regular role

I suspect the experience working with her again on VI may have played some part in the decision. 

[International Debris]

VII has pathos, although it’s occasionally awkwardly handled. VIII has no pathos and is terrible. BtE has pathos and it’s the best thing about it; it’s a shit comedy but a half decent drama. X has pathos but yes, some terrible VIII-esque jokes to ruin the spell. XI and XII are surprisingly lacking, other than maybe Rimmer’s fish moment in Siliconia. TPL has a good bit and it’s actually well handled and properly enhances the story and characters.

fwiw I don’t think VI has much pathos and this is to the detriment of the series. 

V as a precursor to VII is absolutely true, VII almost feels like course correction from VI in places. I have no problem with this, I think the problem with VII is Doug isn’t as good a writer on his own as he is with Rob, not the direction the show was going in. 

[Rushy]

I don’t really follow how V is a precursor to VII? The two are completely different in style, tone, approach

[Dax101]

Series 5 is darker and grittier in sci-fi, but wouldn’t say it was a drama. I remember reading there was an increase in viewership for Series 5, as well as getting the call to produce a US version. So if anything i think Series 6 was just an extension of what they felt was successful for 5.

While Series 7 feels like drama. It has that feel. Its a series thats not afraid to stop and have more slower dramatic moments. Which i put down to being a tester for how you would make a movie and not a sitcom.

[International Debris]

V is much lower on gags than the series around it. It’s generally more serious in tone, even though it’s still obviously a comedy. VI is a lot broader, sillier, less character-based, almost cartoony in contrast, like they pulled back from the brink a bit. VII feels like Doug’s decided to carry on with the slightly less sitcommy aspects of V. They’re very different, but it VI feels like a bit of an outlier in between the two.
I always thought the idea of VII being a drama was massively overstated. It’s single camera and has more dramatic moments than earlier series, but it’s still by-and-large a comedy. I’d say the climactic scenes of The Inquisitor are more dramatic than most of VII, for example.
My post from Refresh the Memory: Series V Byte II, having just watched the show up to that point:

V, then. It’s still my favourite series, but this is the first time I’ve
properly watched the show with a critical eye and it surprised me at
how different it is to even IV. It’s definitely much more serious in
tone, and yet the characters sometimes feel very slightly broader at
times. Red Dwarf (especially the bunk room, as Rudolph says) and Holly
are in it even less than I remembered. In some ways, VII feels like a
more natural continuation of the changes than VI’s much lighter tone.

[Rushy]

Tbh, I mainly think of V as “IV, but as a series of Halloween specials”. 

VII always reminded me of Farscape and Firefly and that whole era of slightly corny, slightly weird late 90s/early 00s space adventures. 

[International Debris]

Yeah, that’s not a bad description of V. I suppose I see the run from 1-VII as a continual evolution, but VI sticks out as something a bit different, rather than a halfway point between V and VII. 

[Dax101]

Id say VI is more similar to V though then neither are to VII. VII feels way more like a step in a different tone than what VI does. VII feels like a sci-fi drama but with comedy. its the series where Lister could lose his arm and have an episode centered around that struggle. V and VI i don’t feel would attempt that.

Id say VI is just the gritty space adventure elements of V but stripped of the more IV style story telling which is all but gone by VI.

[gerrydelasel]

I concur. Series 6 is no different from 5; a series of episodic adventures. Series 7 went in a radically new direction.

[clem]

Even though I love V and would probably have to say it’s objectively a better series than VI, I wouldn’t rather have a Series VI that’s more like V instead of the one we got. I pretty much agree with all the usual criticisms directed at VI – it’s formulaic, broader and less character-driven, reuses ideas from previous series and has less heart than the rest of the bubble – but none of that hinders my enjoyment. Arguably it’s the most purely fun Red Dwarf. 

[Rushy]

I love the scrappy nature of their predicament in VI. There’s a sense of danger without the main ship. 

[Warbodog]

VI and VII feel more connected to me for the obvious setting and Holly reasons, the more conventional setup of established enemy races having fleets and local space and continuity/overuse of the Time Drive and AR in VII. All the Stoke Me a Clipper excess and Pride and Prejudice stuff felt like they were trying to do Gunmen again even to an 11 year old.

It’s also very different though, obviously. But then VIII is even more different. [/unremarkable opinion]

[Moonlight]

I like Holoship and The Inquisitor more than Back to Reality.

[Rushy]

I like Holoship and The Inquisitor more than Back to Reality.

I second that.

Holoship is my favourite episode.

[Nick R]

If they couldn’t get the original actress they should have made her into a new independent character, which would have been fine.e.g. a better story line would have been that she was the woman rescued by Ace Rimmer in Stoke me a Clipper, before he jumped to their dimension, and he had to leave her with them so she was forever searching for a way back to her own dimension. Or something.

If she had become a recurring character, I’d hope that she would have been given a better name than the “Princess Beryl Bonjella” joke. (Hmm, that gives me an idea for turning over two pages at once…)

Mind you, Kochanski’s name is arguably also kind of a joke, with that mysterious “Z” middle initial. (Zoë? Zelda? Ziggy?)

And for that matter, “Rimmer” is also a double entendre of a name.

[Moonlight]

I concur. Series 6 is no different from 5; a series of episodic adventures.

By those standards basically every series is no different from any other. There is a fairly significant difference in the writing between V and VI and I don’t see how anyone could argue there isn’t.

[gerrydelasel]

There is a fairly significant difference in the writing between V and VI

And yet I’ve not heard a coherent explanation of the difference

[Dave]

And yet I’ve not heard a coherent explanation of the difference

In V the writing is less concerned with wringing gags and one-liners out of every single setup and situation, and more willing to develop the story ideas dramatically and take them seriously. It’s also happy to explore the darker sides of the characters in a way that is willing to risk being unsympathetic and unlikeable.

In VI there’s much more of a sense of maximising the comedic potential of every moment, particularly by introducing a set of formulaic stock setups and punchlines that you can plug into any scene (see the VI section of this article for more on that). The stories are slightly more cartoonish and the implications are generally played for comedy value rather than taken seriously (you can imagine storylines like Emohawk or Rimmerworld written in a V style and being quite different and much darker).

That’s not to say that there aren’t moments of seriousness and darkness in VI – Psirens is creepy at times, Legion has some sinister elements and the end of Out Of Time is maybe the greatest example of the show taking itself seriously and being all the better for it – but in general I think there’s more a darkness and seriousness to V that is relatively absent in VI, and there’s a sense of humour being the primary goal in VI in a way that isn’t always true in V.

[Flap Jack]

Yeah, I think people have explained it clearly enough? Series VI episodes adhere to a stricter formula. The plot always kicks off with the 4 regulars gathered in the cockpit, they run through somewhat interchangeable banter (Rimmer and Kryten’s space corps directive thing, Cat doing a “we’re deader than [fashion choice]” bit), and then whatever hijinks follow is going to be a relatively more focused on gags than character exploration.

Plus Series VI has an actual overarching plot, which otherwise only Series 1, VII and VIII have. (And for Series 1 and VII, the plot doesn’t even cover the whole series like it did with Series VI.)

[gerrydelasel]

OK after reading the article I think I see what you’re driving at. Series 5 was still finding the formula, whereas series 6 found the formula and served up a Macdonald’s BigMac for every episode. I get it now. Personally I have no problem with a formula, most successful sitcoms are formulaic.
Series 7, meanwhile, is endless callbacks (I think of it as the RD equivalent of the Force Awakens). I’m new to the forum so I’m still learning the intrinsic forum knowledge.

[Rushy]

I think this is one of those cases where I have to step back and say “we watched two different shows”

[Unrumble]

In V the writing is less concerned with wringing gags and one-liners out of every single setup and situation, and more willing to develop the story ideas dramatically and take them seriously.

‘The Inquisitor’ is one of the darkest episodes overall anyway, but that’s a good example. The final scene where Lister threatens/saves The Inquisitor is pure drama, with no real gags (though there is obvious humour inherent in the delivery of “it’s the old backfiring time gauntlet trick!”) until it ends on a deliberately grotesque punchline, that’s still in keeping with the grim tone of the ep.

If you look at another closing ‘climactic showdown’ scene, ‘The Last Day’ presents another ‘the crew are in mortal peril’ scenario, but it has plenty of humorous moments set against the menace of Hudzen.

[Rudolph]

In the first two series he’s basically there to fill a gap, to stop it just being Rimmer and Lister bickering.

I’ve always like that Cat is at his most cat-like in these series. That he’s off happily doing his own thing, only turning up to interact with Lister or Rimmer when he wants food, attention or somebody to play with.

[Rushy]

In the first two series he’s basically there to fill a gap, to stop it just being Rimmer and Lister bickering.

I’ve always like that Cat is at his most cat-like in these series. That he’s off happily doing his own thing, only turning up to interact with Lister or Rimmer when he wants food, attention or somebody to play with.

I love the bit (I think it’s in Kryten, could be mistaken) where he’s just in the background of a scene, knitting and observing. It gave me a strong impression of a cat just lounging near humans, not really giving a shit but also enjoying the company. 

[Technopeasant]

I’d say part of it is the contrast is strongest if you are only comparing V to VI or to an extent VII. VI is definitely darker than III or even IV in terms of regular peril.

[Dax101]

I feel like reading the differences people bring up from V and VI, I don’t know if I’d separate the series to that degree. After all, Series 1 and Series 2 also have many differences, but you could easily feel like they are more similar to eachother than Series 3. And that’s where I stand with Series V and VI. while they have differences and are balanced a little differently, they ultimately aim at the same type of tone. You could probably put The Inquisitor in Series 6 and you wouldn’t feel it was strange at all. I certainly wouldn’t say V and VII were similar though.

Same way 3 and 4 could be said to be similar even with the differences.

[gerrydelasel]

[Author]

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