Your Unpopular Red Dwarf Opinions

[Piplup2003]

The title says it all. What opinions do you have about Red Dwarf that no-one else seems to agree on?

For me, it’s that VIII is my second favourite series (behind V) and that I prefer Chloë over Claire as Kochanski (this may be partially influenced by the fact that I’ve met Chloë).

And please, no arguing.

Topic

[Warbodog]

It’s widely known that Krytie TV at least was largely salvaged from the pilot script for Doug’s prison sitcom that wasn’t commissioned and he very awkwardly contrived the rest of Series VIII to fit around it. [/untrue fact, probably]

[Moonlight]

After all, Series 1 and Series 2 also have many differences, but you could easily feel like they are more similar to eachother than Series 3.

I would make the argument that Series 2 and 3 are a lot more similar than a massive aesthetic difference makes it seem on the surface. There is a lot of really wacky stuff in Series 2 that doesn’t feel in keeping with Series 1 but would be at home in 3. Better Than Life, Stasis Leak and especially Parallel Universe all come to mind to varying degrees. Meanwhile, episodes like Thanks for the Memory and Queeg feel more like an evolved, refined Series 1.

Not sure where to place Kryten on this spectrum.

My main point is that I feel like Series 2 would seem like a much cleaner half-step between 1 and 3 if the latter didn’t look and sound like a different show.

[Warbodog]

Plus Series VI has an actual overarching plot, which otherwise only Series 1, VII and VIII have. (And for Series 1 and VII, the plot doesn’t even cover the whole series like it did with Series VI.)

There’s also Lister’s twin babies arc that runs from Future Echoes to Backwards, intermittently admittedly.

[Flap Jack]

Kind of, but I really mean plots that are actively progressed from episode to episode, or are at least mentioned. I’m not going to count the twins being established in Future Echoes and being explained in Parallel Universe (and then getting a too-fast-to-actually-read “so that happened, but don’t think about it” in Backwards) as an overarching plot for Series 1 and 2.

[gerrydelasel]

Unpopular opinion: The sentient vanding machines aren’t funny and aren’t a good vehicle for gags.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Unpopular opinion: The sentient vanding machines aren’t funny and aren’t a good vehicle for gags.

I’m not against the concept. The one in Future Echos and even Only the Good are fun enough. But the Dave era ones are too much, and have too much personality. All the different accents and nationalities and stuff is sort of perpetually series 8ing the joke

The AI in the vending machines, toaster, the toilet, are funny when used sparingly, but Doug started to use them as and in lieu of additional characters. 

[Moonlight]

I think Mechocracy used them well given the specific plot actually necessitated using the machines of the ship.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I think Mechocracy used them well given the specific plot actually necessitated using the machines of the ship.

I’d still rather less comedic voices/personalities. 

The idea of the machines going on strike is a fine plot idea. If I was a vending machine going on strike, I wouldn’t vote in a two party race of the people you’re striking against. Both Kryten and Rimmer are responsible for their grievances.

I really think that they should have brought Talkie in sooner and have him run as a 3rd candidate and win.

[gerrydelasel]

The one in Future Echos are fun enough. But the Dave era ones are too much, and have too much personality. The AI in the vending machines, toaster, the toilet, are funny when used sparingly, but Doug started to use them in lieu of additional characters.

The machines going on strike could have been really funny if they’d kept the machine dialogue minimal and more machine-like, as in Bodyswap.

[Technopeasant]

But the Dave era ones are too much, and have too much personality. All
the different accents and nationalities and stuff is sort of perpetually
series 8ing the joke

I am going to assume the skutters never did anything and the malfunction devolved into accents.

[Turk Thrust]

If they were going to use talking vending machines again, they really could have brought Tony Hawks back.

I wonder whether part of the reason why they have been used quite a lot in Dave Dwarf is down to Rob and Doug completing the Bodysnatcher script. In the commentary, Doug mentions that they initially planned to use talking machines a lot more but that it was a shame that got lost as the years went by.

My unpopular opinion would be that Talkie Toaster should not have returned. It’s a one joke character and they basically just got David Ross to say the same lines he had 20+ years earlier.

[Rushy]

I always liked the John Lenahan Toaster more. His jokes weren’t always bread related. They were quite curranty too. 

[International Debris]

My unpopular opinion would be that Talkie Toaster should not have returned. It’s a one joke character and they basically just got David Ross to say the same lines he had 20+ years earlier.

I dunno if it’s that unpopular, quite a few of us sighed at it at the time. I think the list of bread products could have been funny if it had gone into ridiculous territory, Lister wracking his brain to try and preempt every absurd possibility, but instead we basically just got the original scene again. 

[Turk Thrust]

Another unpopular opinion: Back to Earth and Series X were not returns to form or a significant improvement over VII and VIII.

[Ben Saunders]

Is that really an unpopular opinion? Most people seem to think Back to Earth is a weird one-off with various opinions on its quality, and X is a noticeably low-budget, slightly generic-sitcom series we were just happy to have on, which has moments of brilliance and moments of absolute shit.

[Dave]

I think X definitely has the reputation of being a return to “proper” Red Dwarf for the first time since VI, which I think in many ways it is.

[Turk Thrust]

Is that really an unpopular opinion? Most people seem to think Back to Earth is a weird one-off with various opinions on its quality, and X is a noticeably low-budget, slightly generic-sitcom series we were just happy to have on, which has moments of brilliance and moments of absolute shit.

Well, in the polls the Series X episodes do quite well.

I agree that the low-budget is very apparent upon repeated viewings. 

[Warbodog]

I wouldn’t group Back to Earth and X like that, I find BTE more the delayed tail end of the lousy era. I like about 3 episodes of X compared to only 2 or 3 in all of VII-VIII, so that makes me feel it’s significantly better, even if still struggling.

[International Debris]

When it was broadcast, I liked BtE even less than VIII. That changed when I did a full series rewatch and BtE actually felt like Red Dwarf again, just very, very bad Red Dwarf, which was still preferable to whatever the hell VIII is.

I have a friend who maintains that VIII is better than everything in the Dave era, which he says is so bad it wouldn’t have even been commissioned if it wasn’t part of a show with an existing fanbase. So there are people who feel like this. Again, I think the fact that the Dave stuff actually has the recognisable characters, character-led stories and so on makes them immediately better than VIII; X being on par with VII seems fair to me, though.

[tombow]

never thought Cassandra was that great an episode, it may be the best of S8 but it never really stood out to me as a good Dwarf ep in general. It still has the S8 wacky tone and the story isn’t that great by “outwitting a tricky computer” sci fi standards.

[Dax101]

The Dave era feels familiar because it goes back to structure of the earlier series when it was the 4 guys on red dwarf, along with the studio audience and some feel good nostalgic beats here and there. So I do tend to wonder how much of the back to form and how much of that is an nostalgic illusion from going back to what was loved?

Im not saying the 2nd was is the case, but i do tend to wonder sometimes.

For me Series 10 is jammed full of plot ideas and sometimes logic thats just too silly or convoluted. And the comedy ranges from to annoyingly predictable or to silly. For me that takes away any return to form and im often surprised when people think its a return to form. But i guess everyone looks at things differently.

[Ben Saunders]

it wouldn’t have even been commissioned if it wasn’t part of a show with an existing fanbase

Well this is probably true but not for reasons of quality, crap shows get commissioned all the time but they’re rarely expensive sci-fi audience sitcoms starring men in their 50s

[Rushy]

For me Series 10 is jammed full of plot ideas and sometimes logic thats just too silly or convoluted. And the comedy ranges from to annoyingly predictable or to silly. For me that takes away any return to form and im often surprised when people think its a return to form. But i guess everyone looks at things differently.

I like that it’s more quiet and character driven than XI-XII, which basically wanted to be “IV, but modern-ner”

The Lister development in Fathers and Suns is fantastic by any standard, and I wish Doug had leaned more into those kinds of stories. These characters are old. It’s okay (and realistic) to slow them down.

[Dave]

For me there’s a general lack of sincerity that distinguishes the Dave era from the bubble era. It’s rare that a Dave episode feels confident enough to commit to its ideas in a dramatic and serious way as well as a platform for jokes and humour.

There are moments that feel like they’re reaching for that kind of quality – the Lister scenes about Kochanski in BTE, some of the Rimmer stuff in the Beginning, the threat of the early scenes in Give & Take, the Moonlight scene in TPL – but even then they’re surrounded with over-the-top silliness that makes it clear that nobody is taking it all that seriously.

Some of that is down to the broader performances, but a lot of it is in the writing.

[Warbodog]

never thought Cassandra was that great an episode, it may be the best of S8 but it never really stood out to me as a good Dwarf ep in general. It still has the S8 wacky tone and the story isn’t that great by “outwitting a tricky computer” sci fi standards.

I don’t disagree with any criticisms of Cassandra I read (there are things in there worse than the wacky tone), but they’ve never taken the shine off it basically feeling like one of the weaker bubble episodes to me and mostly a good time.

[International Debris]

My favourite bits of the Dave era are up there with some bubble stuff, and I definitely felt the joy of it feeling like Red Dwarf whenever it returned. The cracks are also a lot more obvious on rewatches, though, and despite the major upturn in writing, it’s clear that Doug’s worst impulses in both VII and VIII never fully went away.

[Frank Smeghammer]

It’s interesting because I really do think nothing outside of the Series I-VI “bubble” even gets close to the bubble except a few remnant moments of Series VII where shreds of the magic still pervade.

I like almost everything Dwarf, so not to say none of it was any good because lots and lots of it is good. But the bubble is perfect.

I realise that view is probably very much the “popular view” and it doesn’t really belong here. But I do sense it is an unpopular view on this site in particular (I say respectfully). I think it’s quite a “normie” view and not one shared by the more hardened Dwarfers who lurk here.

[gerrydelasel]

I still think Smoke me a Kipper is as good as any Series I-VI episode and I wish it was somehow part of them. If someone would just fix the terrible CGI it would be excellent, but it would have to be a season finale (then Rimmer would return in the next season because reasons).

[Turk Thrust]

Watching X again now, Chris Barrie’s performance is way below what it was during the BBC days and also below what it became in XI.

I can understand people enjoying having just the 4 main characters on the ship and that aspect was undoubtedly an improvement over VIII. But the vast majority of guest characters and vending machines are ridiculously OTT in the same way that Kill Crazy and Baxter had been.

There are several good ideas in the plots, but also lots of rushed ideas that don’t go anywhere. 

And Doug’s writing for women hadn’t really improved since VIII.

[International Debris]

Chris is really quite poor in X. I think you can see his performance gradually improving over the course of the following years, to the extent that I think he’s just about got it down by The Promised Land. But he’s absolutely the weak link in the Dave era, and it’s kind of sad.

[Technopeasant]

I realise that view is probably very much the “popular view” and it doesn’t really belong here. But I do sense it is an unpopular view on this site in particular (I say respectfully). I think it’s quite a “normie” view and not one shared by the more hardened Dwarfers who lurk here.

Not sure it’s so much “hardened Dwarfers” do not believe in the bubble as much as we do so strongly that we enjoy it being challenged just for the novelty.

[Turk Thrust]

With regard to the bubble, I think when you are enjoying episodes, you can overlook some of the faults. There are some bad jokes and production issues are occasionally apparent (eg. Demons and Angels), but you could still rely on it to be a generally good show.

After the bubble, there are good jokes and ideas, but it feels like there is no quality control. There are in and out of character moments and the idea of being alone in a godless universe is long gone. Not just in terms of the number of guest stars, but also Kryten collecting all of the toilet paper in the ship to make expenditure cuts! (yes, I just rewatched Dear Dave).

[Unrumble]

The thing I found odd about the stuff with the JMC onboard computer (probably been discussed to death at the time, in the commentary thread etc) is how does that fit in with idea of Holly?

Is it something that was always supposedly around, only Holly was able to override/deactivate its bureaucracy, and without him it’s defaulted back to being able to assert its rules? 

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

The thing I found odd about the stuff with the JMC onboard computer (probably been discussed to death at the time, in the commentary thread etc) is how does that fit in with idea of Holly?
Is it something that was always supposedly around, only Holly was able to override/deactivate its bureaucracy, and without him it’s defaulted back to being able to assert its rules? 

Think of it like a default OS. Holly is software on top that can control it and make decisions alongside and on behalf of the crew. Without Holly it goes back to default settings 

[Asclepius]

My favourite bits of the Dave era are up there with some bubble stuff, and I definitely felt the joy of it feeling like Red Dwarf whenever it returned. The cracks are also a lot more obvious on rewatches, though, and despite the major upturn in writing, it’s clear that Doug’s worst impulses in both VII and VIII never fully went away.

Trojan, Fathers and Suns, Lemons, Give & Take, Officer Rimmer, Cured, The Promised Land (feature length finale).

One perfect Dave-era season of seven. You can remove whichever one you want to make it six.

[gerrydelasel]

Lemons really grinds my gears because all the Red dwarf fans on Reddit absolutely love it. You’d think there had never been a better episode the way they clap like seals whenever it is mentioned. It must appeal to American sense of humour or something. 
Whereas I loath it. Full of all the wak gags, out-of-character behaviour, and bad Chris acting that is familiar to us. Moreover, I could just about buy it if Lister and Cat were the ones who needed a battery, but having Kryten there (who somehow now has less knowledge of DIY batteries than my mum), just makes the whole premise of *walking to India* eye-wateringly dumb. The whole episode reads like fan fic. Bad fan fic, not even good fan fic.

[Asclepius]

Lemons really grinds my gears because all the Red dwarf fans on Reddit absolutely love it. You’d think there had never been a better episode the way they clap like seals whenever it is mentioned. It must appeal to American sense of humour or something. Whereas I loath it. Full of all the wak gags, out-of-character behaviour, and bad Chris acting that is familiar to us. Moreover, I could just about buy it if Lister and Cat were the ones who needed a battery, but having Kryten there (who somehow now has less knowledge of DIY batteries than my mum), just makes the whole premise of *walking to India* eye-wateringly dumb. The whole episode reads like fan fic. Bad fan fic, not even good fan fic.

I hadn’t spotted the plot hole about the battery before. Argh! You’ve killed it for me now! Boooo….!

But I do like the episode. The Geordie Jesus is brilliantly well written and well played. The parts where he discovers what “he” is responsible for re: Christianity, the initial ‘Jesus! Yes?’ gag. It’s all good stuff. Without a good Jesus actor, I think the whole thing would collapse massively. But it has got a good Jesus, and I do like it. It’s fun, it’s funny and it’s a little bit moving at times. Feels like a lesser Series III/IV episode to me.

[International Debris]

I see increasing popularity of Cured over the years and feel it’s my duty to stop it. It’s a poor episode. Some good gags, but a really saggy plot. Fathers and Suns has the whole Taiwan Tony plot which stops it being perfect, too.

My Dave era best-of would be:

Lemons, The Beginning, Give & Take, Krysis, M-Corp, Skipper, The Promised Land (feature length finale). 

[Ben Saunders]

Lemons annoys me too, I very much dislike Geordie Jesus waving a bag around and his very high-pitched, loud delivery. It’s like an episode of Always Sunny, a notoriously crap show. Much of the humour feels pretty lazy and lifted from r/atheism. It has a really impressive set, though. Inventive use of the lemon battery. The gag that they went all the way to India then realised they needed something they left back in Britain is a funny idea but staged pretty poorly, more like they’d gone for the train and left their headphones in the flat. It’s an episode I’d simply have forgotten about and moved on from if it wasn’t for the bizarre response it got.

I quite like Cured. Broad, yes. But I love Hitler.

[Asclepius]

I see increasing popularity of Cured over the years and feel it’s my duty to stop it. It’s a poor episode. Some good gags, but a really saggy plot. Fathers and Suns has the whole Taiwan Tony plot which stops it being perfect, too.
My Dave era best-of would be:
Lemons, The Beginning, Give & Take, Krysis, M-Corp, Skipper, The Promised Land (feature length finale). 

I think Cured’s the strongest episode of that last series. I do like it, but I do recognise its crappy plot. But it is fun. I enjoyed it watching it, I’ve enjoyed rewatching it.
I’d forgotten that Taiwan Tony featured in ‘Fathers and Suns’. I just remembered the Lister stuff and Pree. They were good bits.
I’ll take your list too, tbh. The Beginning has a cringe moment for me where Rimmer’s gardening father has the ridiculous name ‘Dungo’ or something, and Rimmer carries out the antique lamp that’s just appeared out of nowhere. Argh. I have trouble getting past those moments!

Krysis – yeah, good call. That’s a good story, and Butler is great.

M-Corp I’ve struggled with too. It’s an interesting idea, but as my young child says about various Doctor Who episodes – you know that what’s happened (Lister’s ageing) isn’t really real and is just going to be reset at the end of the episode.

Skipper is a good laugh, but those laughs are almost entirely through “Oh, look who this is from the olden days” or “Here’s that joke again”. It would have been amazing to watch being recorded though, I imagine. But yeah, it is funny!

[Spaceworm Jim]

I like the Dave era mainly for the atmosphere. The gags are inconsistent, some good, some awful, but I really like the chemistry of the characters, although I find Chris and Danny are on autopilot with their acting sometimes. I prefer it to the most popular series (VII and VIII).

[Unrumble]

Always Sunny, a notoriously crap show.

If you think it’s crap, that’s all well and good, but ‘notoriously’? I thought it had plenty of acclaim to go with its large fanbase, or have I missed something?

[Spaceworm Jim]

Think Ben’s joking there.

[gerrydelasel]

I quite like Cured. Broad, yes. But I love Hitler.

I, for one, have had quite enough of Hitler references and cameos in RD. There must be other historical characters Doug can think of.

[Dave]

Dave-era Superseries:

——

Trojan

The Beginning

Give & Take

Officer Rimmer

M-Corp

Skipper

——

I did this purely on the basis of quality and favourites, but it’s nice that it works out at two episodes from each series.

A shame to lose decent episodes like Krysis (which has the standout guest performance of the entire Dave era) but:

Also, with the exception of M-Corp, the whole thing also has a nice overarching Rimmer arc, which is a bonus.

[Unrumble]

Think Ben’s joking there.

Perhaps I missed an entirely different thing then.

[Turk Thrust]

Having just re-watched X again, I would rank Lemons as the strongest by a fair distance. A solid plot, some laughs, and they did a good job with the look considering the budget constraints.

Twentica and Give & Take would certainly also be in my top 6 Dave episodes, but I need to have a re-watch of the rest as my memory is atrocious.

[Frank Smeghammer]

Krysis is absolutely horrendous shite, I’m sorry. It ends with them meeting the universe itself. Meeting the universe… The Universe.

They met “The Universe”.

And “The ACTUAL Universe” was having a midlife crisis

Give over with that toss.

[Rushy]

Fathers and Suns, Dear Dave, Officer Rimmer, Cured, Krysis, Mechocracy, Give & Take, Promised Land are all up there for me

I quite like M-Corp, but it’s full of too many plot holes for me to fully appreciate it. 

Chris’ acting is… something, but I’ve always felt Danny’s ascendancy to glory makes up for it. I absolutely love the Dave era Cat.

[Flap Jack]

Lemons is a good episode. All respect to Red Dwarf’s only female writer, Many Ampersand Symbols.

[Author]

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