The Doctor Who Spoilers Thread – Part III

[Pete Part Three]

Thoughts on Martha’s key, anyone?

I forget its actual name, but it’s bound to be anagram friendly. Personally, I think it’s the reset button with the ability to wipe the memories of ever human being so they can’t remember any of the events when the Doctor eventually saves the day.

[Andrew]

> it?s bound to be anagram friendly

Osterhagen could = “Earth’s Gone”:

http://www.denofgeek.com/television/77938/doctor_who_what_is_the_osterhagen_key.html

[Tarka Dal]

Yeah I thought the Mr Copper reference was just a throw away, although that’s quite a decent anagram to throw-up.

I thought I had a good one when I found that ‘Osterhagen’ re-arranged to be “Earth’s Gone” until I read a much better theory involving the word ‘reset’. Which of course work’s much better because RTD can reset the finale out of Earth’s history, although didn’t he do that last year?

All that said, when I catch myself using an anagram machine on the internet my self-worth drops through the floor :(

[Andrew]

> I found that ?Osterhagen? re-arranged to be ?Earth?s Gone? until I read a much better theory involving the word ?reset?

Osterhagen Key = Hokey reset nag?

[Andrew]

> >But why would tracking the bees lead to the earths new location in the region of the Medusa cascade?

> Because it was the ?trail? left by the bees that the Daleks had themselves used to whisk the Earth along. I think.

I think this is still wrong. Two watchings and I still had to go to the published subtitles to figure it all out!

http://sandwich.ukcod.org.uk/~matthew/subtitles/?q=series:4+ep:12#I446

They blasted through it so quickly…and kinda skipped a beat:

“If the migrant bees felt something coming, some danger, and escaped…The Tandocca Scale!…It’s wavelengths used as a carrier signal. Infinitely small…The transmat that moved the planets used the same wavelength, we can follow it!”

The suggestion, as far as I can tell, is that the bees knew trouble was coming because they use/read/pick-up anything on the Tandocca Scale. So they buggered off, but now the Doctor knows what scared them away – a transmat using that scale. And, knowing the signal being used, he can follow its wavelength.

So – ain’t nobody following the bees.

[Zombie Jim Undead]

That’s not even real words! You’re just saying things!

Seriously, though…that scene showed a major disregard for the audience. Tennant speaks so quickly it’s an utter nonsense…and even reading the script it’s pretty nonsensical.

[Andrew]

I really don’t blame Tennant. Exposition’s a tough needle to thread and the actor kinda has to trust the writer (and director).

But it’s such a DUMB problem to have. All it needs is a line like this:

“The Tandocca Scale! The bees use the signal, it’s how they navigate as a swarm. But they picked up a great big, planet-moving version – no wonder they scarpered. The transmat that moved the planets used the same wavelength. Oh-ho! And now we know what we’re looking for – we can follow it!?

They went from ‘bees’ to ‘signal-following’ and skipped the connection, which is vaguely implied rather than stated. Mistake. Even played at regular speed it doesn’t do the job.

[Zombie Jim Undead]

> ?The Tandocca Scale! The bees use the signal, it?s how they navigate as a swarm. But they picked up a great big, planet-moving version – no wonder they scarpered. The transmat that moved the planets used the same wavelength. Oh-ho! And now we know what we?re looking for – we can follow it!?

Perfect!

[ChrisM]

That makes a lot of sense. I heard the Tandocca scale in reference to the bees, and the ‘infinitely small’ and just associated it with the bees (being small) …. which confused the whole thing.

I had this horrible idea they were resolving the plot with a major unlikely coincidence, but the proper explanation resolves that somewhat. Course, it’s handy the bees happened to be aliens who knew that signal…

Never mind. I’m enjoying it!

[Andrew]

> You just know that RTD was very pleased with himself when he came up with those lines. Especially ?it?s how they navigate as a swarm.? Brilliant!

Huh?

[ChrisM]

Heh, heh.

[pfm]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2RmFTFyz8o8

I usually hate videos like this, but that’s because My Heart Will Go On or something like it tends to be used as the music. However, when you get something GOOD on there and it’s actually edited to fit the lyrics…pure genius!

This is also pretty good, but only if you like Rose/Billie, or at least how she USED to look…

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=A_-FWE-C7cU

[Tarka Dal]

> So, ain?t nobody following the bees.

In my head I heard that as spoken by Mr. T. Obviously with the word ‘fool’ at the end. Infact Mr. T to be the 11th Doctor.

[Andrew]

> > You just know that RTD was very pleased with himself when he came up with those lines. Especially ?it?s how they navigate as a swarm.? Brilliant!

> Huh?

Hmm, PM’s original post has vanished. Thus I shall remain confused forever…

[Seb Patrick]

Can’t believe it took so long to think of this :

[Andrew]

Ha ha!

[pfm]

Watching Call Girl the other day (ITV1 repeat) and she definitely had the same huge teeth as she has now. It must be stuff she’s had done to her lip. Botox injections? They can make people sound like when they’ve just come back from the dentist and can’t speak properly due to the numbness.

[Seb Patrick]

Ooh, you cheeky monkey.

[Pete Part Three]

I think we’ve experienced this period of time before.

[Andrew]

And that one.

[Somebody]

So, what is it?

[Paul Muller]

Aha! First post of the evening! And I have very little to say.

It was ok – really quite slushy and sentimental and a complete RTD over the top muddle, but I quite enjoyed it.

EXCEPT FOR THE FUCKING 3D TEXT AT THE VERY END.

Your views.

[Jason aka Smeg4Brains]

I’m still recovering.

They crammed a hell of a lot in there didn’t they.

[Seb Patrick]

Never have so many ABSOLUTELY FUCKING SHIT IDEAS made such an ABSOLUTELY FUCKING PERFECT EPISODE.

[Andrew]

> Never have so many ABSOLUTELY FUCKING SHIT IDEAS made such an ABSOLUTELY FUCKING PERFECT EPISODE.

I’m facing a similar conflict.

With the overall two-parter (yes two, blah blah), I felt a great villain was being sorely underused. I felt it stumbled on its predictions (which companion died in the end? Rose, because she went to a parallel universe like the last time she ‘died’? Doctor B, because he WILL die someday? Donna, because she lost he memories?). I felt irritated that Martha, by far the least interesting companion, is the one who gets to keep bouncing back. And I really don’t care for the strictly romantic interpretation of Rose and the Doctor’s love, so a once-great relationship was somehow…reduced.

Yet for the whole thing I was edge-of-my-seat, heart-in-my-mouth, heart-on-my-sleeve thrilled. Entertained and impressed, and overall keener on this climax than series three’s. Plus – more excellence from Cribbins. So I’m feeling fine.

How does RTD do it?!

[ChrisM]

The bit where they were towing back the earth was so very corny….

… so why did I enjoy it? Pretty rubbishy mechanism for such an advanced craft having a bunch of guys tugging stuff in and out… but it was amusing.

Yep, I liked this episode as a whole a lot.

Donna said she got the best bit of the Doctor, his mind. But the hybrid doctor still had all the memories of the original though didn’t he? I.e. he came up with that strange gun thing which homes in on Davros’s DNA and does some magical thing in wiping out the Daleks back through time in a way that didn’t make much sense….

… but they didn’t use it as the resolution, so fair enough.

I’m assuming they meant it was more a copying of minds rather than: you get this bit, I get that bit…

… or something.

Handy having all those dalek magnetising bits and pieces in the vault, i.e. the prison of the ship. Just waiting for Donna to utilize… and that thing hybrid doctor did kind of lost me (another bit I’ll need to watch again.)…

… yet it still worked somehow.

Great finale.

Did you see who is back for the Christmas episode? I wonder if this’ll be the originals or the parallel universe versions?

[Andrew]

Worth also noting that right now, in some other dimension, Rose is shagging the Doctor to the point where he shouts “Cor blimey, this is a turn up!” in Donna-ish tones…

> I wonder if this?ll be the originals or the parallel universe versions?

It’s the same old design, complete with Cybus logo. So I’m going with ‘escaped from Rose’s universe’.

Hmm, a quick Google reveals a site I’d not seen before in this condition:

http://www.cybusindustries.net

[Stabbim the Skutter]

Lovely stuff. :D My only complaint is that there wasn’t enough naked Tennant. I mean, considering how much Eccleston bared this was a disappointment. Still funny though.

[Somebody]

That’s from 2005-6 – like all the official sites, it’s been in stasis since then (unit.org.uk hasn’t been updated for this series at all, even to say “Unified Intelligence Taskforce”)

[ChrisM]

> Never have so many ABSOLUTELY FUCKING SHIT IDEAS made such an ABSOLUTELY FUCKING >PERFECT EPISODE.

The thought occurs, this episode was a Triple Fried Egg Chili Chutney Sandwich. ;)
(I make those sometimes. Actually with mango chutney and west indian extra hot pepper sauce, and it really is good.)

[Seb Patrick]

We did them with mango chutney and sweet chilli sauce, and they were perfection in sandwich form.

[ChrisM]

I think I’ve tried the sweet chilli with it too. (Thai sweet chilli I think it was.) Very nice. (I tend not to buy the sauces in the house, and grab whats in stock. The extra hot is good but a little goes a long way.)

[Pete Part Three]

> Never have so many ABSOLUTELY FUCKING SHIT IDEAS made such an ABSOLUTELY FUCKING >PERFECT EPISODE.

This is so IT. I stupidly read a few spoilers and hated the sound of them…but in the episode they actually worked. This is SOOO much better than last year’s conclusion. I’m wondering if I’d find the appearance of a second Doctor so stupid if it hadn’t been previously revealed. Moral of the story is that I’m never reading spoilers again.

The resolution to last week’s cliffhanger was awful, the stuff with the Daleks was OK…and I was heading for a pretty medicore resolution.

But the last fifteen minutes were fantastic and elevated this episode so much. I’m slightly pissed as I write this (and watching Confidential, incidentally) but I don’t think alcohol is to blame for my enthusiasm.

I loved that the Doctor had to put up with his flawed photocopy wandering off with Rose, I loved that Donna reverted to her gobby persona, and I loved this bit more than anything:

Doctor: And for one moment. One shining moment, she was the most important women in the whole wide universe.

Donna’s Mum : She still is. She’s my daughter.

And Cribbins. Get that man in the TARDIS. STAT!

[ChrisM]

Another thing, Daleks speaking German made me smile. Particularly in light of the non-spoiler thread. (And it really suited their voices didn’t it?)

The big German lady seemed to be almost like someone out of ‘Ello, ‘ello. In a good way. Not that they had any female germans who looked like her, just the complete farcical exaggeration of the accent. (I’ll probably find out she’s actually a German actress now and have to eat my helmet.)

[pfm]

The whole crazy Martha’s adventures in Germany-but-it’s-not-it’s-a-Welsh-castle-and-some-trees was thankfully saved by the reveal of what the Oskethingy Key (fuck off) was, basically Earth’s self-destruct key. Sadly I don’t think the ‘strategically placed nuclear warheads’ would destroy Earth in real life, but that’s by the by…

Loads of material should have been cut out. Gwen and Ianto, for instance. They do nothing apart from NOT get exterminated by the Dalek due to a time freeze thing Tosh was working on before she DIED (how, incindentally, can Freema and Noel Clarke replace the greatness of Naoko Mori and Burn Gorman? Good luck to them).

All the way through I wanted Rose to just not be there. It turns out all the stuff her Torchwood and our UNIT was working on was just for her selfish reason of wanting to get back to the Doctor! Her character (and acting) was pretty crap in this episode. The kiss at the end wasn’t good either. Billie on Confidential said she didn’t like the idea that she was kissing the ‘wrong’ Doctor. That’s NOT how that moment should have felt. It should have seemed like it didn’t matter which Doctor he was. Ah I don’t know… too much focus on Rose and not enough on the BRILLIANT Davros.

Special mention should go to Catherine Tate. She blew everyone else away (apart from Bernard Cribbins in that heartbreaking scene at the end, some proper acting there, gave the episode that extra lift that was needed). Hands up who started to well up as she was pleading with the Doctor in the Tardis at the end. Suddenly things go beyond what you’re expecting from Who.

The only thing…I wish this was the end of Tennant. Journey’s End should have been a real end of an era. It’s too similar to the last two finales where he’s been left lonely and miserable on his own. Rather than it being like ‘oh, here we are again’ we should have had a new Doctor looking forward positively. He should have regenerated in a ‘what? WHAT?’ moment right at the end, into…Craig Charles!

[Tarka Dal]

It was utter nonsense.

Utterly wonderful nonsense.

[Jason aka Smeg4Brains]

> He should have regenerated in a ?what? WHAT??

Thats a good point…where was the “What?” moment…..I demand a “what?”

[pfm]

The other good one would have been Jenny appearing in the Tardis. It was quite sad to see the Doctor think of her as dead in the flashback. After all the doom and gloom it would have been a great ending IMO. But seeing as she was only saved in retrospect by Moffat it wouldn’t have fit into RTD’s plan for the Christmas special.

[Zombie Jim Undead]

Afraid I thought it was a massive pile of plops…with a few gleaming nuggets.

The bad:

Davies has once again proved that he can’t cash the cheques that his brain writes. Why destroy two “fix everything” plot maguffins, only to turn Donna into a walking talking one?

The Doctor Donna was possibly the most annoying thing ever created.

Why did Rose have to go back to her own universe? Surely it’d be better for the potentially dangerous human / timelord doctor to remain in ours, so that the real doctor can sort him out in case he goes mental? Plus, I thought the dimension hopping was tearing the universe apart and should be avoided at all costs?

Freema Agyeman – awful.

Mickey and Jackie – shoe-horned into it, appearing out of nowhere brandishing guns.

Not enough Davros!

Destroying the entire Dalek fleet AGAIN. We all know they’re coming back, so why create the need to re-invent them yet again?

Donna isn’t still half timelady, is she? So why would just the memories of her time with the Doctor kill her?

The Doctor’s depression at being alone again has been played up so many times…just wanted him to cheer the hell up.

The good:

Bernard Cribbins. Utterly superb.

German Daleks!

Davros was perfect.

[Pete Part Three]

>Why destroy two ?fix everything? plot maguffins

You’ve answered this question already. They were macguffins. And technically there were three : the Osterhagen key, the warp star (admittedly lame…I assume this first came about in The SJ Adventures) and the weapon that the 2nd(?!) Doctor created.

Personally, I loved that the 2nd Doctor arrived in the nick of time to save the day with is hastily constructed gizmo…only to be shot and the gizmo destroyed.

>only to turn Donna into a walking talking one

Disagree. This isn’t a macguffin.

>The Doctor Donna was possibly the most annoying thing ever created.

Every fibre of my being told me I was going to hate this. And I wanted to simply because Tate and her abomination of a shitty TV programme, but I couldn’t. It was the right side of cheese. It’s been hinted at and there have been clues galore. Fair play, I say.

>Why did Rose have to go back to her own universe?

Because the endless Billie love has to end sooner or later. Her appearances over-shadowed this season and her performances weren’t enough to justify the hype. Having her on our Earth would mean that people would scream “Why doesn’t he go and see Rose!!11” every other episode.

>Freema Agyeman – awful.

Yeah. The girl can’t act. Cuter than Billie and Tate though.

>Mickey and Jackie – shoe-horned into it, appearing out of nowhere brandishing guns.

A nasty mainstay of RTD finales. CJ popping up to blast a Dalek last week was bad, Pete Tyler jumping in to save Rose was worse, Mickey and Jackie appearing was the absolute nadir. It didn’t help that it was accompanied by the Torchwood sequence which was similarly awful.

>Destroying the entire Dalek fleet AGAIN. We all know they?re coming back, so why create the need to re-invent them yet again?

Agreed. Spending five minutes of every Dalek story explaining the “get-out-clause” is getting rather old.

>Donna isn?t still half timelady, is she? So why would just the memories of her time with the Doctor kill her?

Because it would…I dunno…Pandora’s box. Just go with it!

>The Doctor?s depression at being alone again has been played up so many times?just wanted him to cheer the hell up.

I don’t think it’s been done before quite as well as they did it here. Cribbins and Sladen both drummed the point home at different stages of the finale. The fact that the Doctor has to watch HIMSELF wander off with Rose was incredibly effective. And for once it wasn’t overshadowed by a “What??…what??…what???” moment.

[Tarka Dal]

> Because the endless Billie love has to end sooner or later. Her appearances over-shadowed this season and her performances weren?t enough to justify the hype.

> Having her on our Earth would mean that people would scream ?Why doesn?t he go and see Rose!!11? every other episode.

This is true. Although I don’t it was her performance that made it unjustified. After the huge deal about getting back to the Doctor, she didn’t seem to have anything to do once she’d found him.

I’ve been wondering about the specials and thinking a lot about The forthcoming Moffat-era. Previously I’ve thought and wanted Ten to stay on, but last night I started to consider that a complete clean-break with RTD-era would be better. New EVERYTHING. Doctor, Companion, Tardis Set, Theme tune… maybe even a new Logo.

I’m also curious as to how the specials are going to work. A short series of individual stories or an epic story spread across several parts. Has anyone heard anything? Also companion-wise having only a series of guest stars seems a bit wrong.

I hope we see a bit more of Jack, the ‘Who’ version seems infinitely more watchable than as Torchwood’s leading man.

[Andrew]

> After the huge deal about getting back to the Doctor, she didn?t seem to have anything to do once she?d found him.

I think it’s a huge error in judgement to have her come back only to spend a tiny amount of time actually WITH the Doctor. She spent more time talking to Donna (which was one of the reasons I didn’t care much for Turn Left), so while the actress is around, you never felt ‘Hey, Rose is really back’.

It’s interesting that Davros had the same problem – big promises of a return, and then not nearly enough time spent on the verbal sparring between hero and villain…which is the REAL special effect.

[Zombie Jim Undead]

> I?m also curious as to how the specials are going to work. A short series of individual stories or an epic story spread across several parts. Has anyone heard anything? Also companion-wise having only a series of guest stars seems a bit wrong.

Rumours are that they will be as follows:

Easter – one-off special featuring the Sea Devils

Christmas Day, Boxing Day and New Year’s Day – 3-part special featuring the return of the master.

[Pete Part Three]

Semi-relevant in light of the finale:

http://www.empireonline.com/empireblog/Post.asp?id=187

[John Hoare]

“But she was better with you.”

The more I think about it, the more the resolution of Donna’s arc feels the most successful – and genuinely moving – part of the episode. (Apart from Captain Jack’s foursome joke.) More affecting than the Rose/Doctor split in Doomsday…

[Tarka Dal]

That article makes lots of good points, but I don’t think it applies to the Who finale. It’s almost the end of the RTD era, and so for me he’s totally justified in bringing back all his creations.

For the most part they were also very well used in the Series Four finale. Faces from all series and both spin-offs were an obvious way to hype up the scale of the threat. It wasn’t all perfect (see other thread), but it did tie-up or refresh every characters arc. Rose out of the picture, Donna reset, Martha and Mickey presumably to Torchwood.

[Zombie Jim Undead]

> Mickey presumably to Torchwood.

It’s amazing…I honestly didn’t think that there could possibly be any more reasons for me not to watch it… and then BAM! They pull this out of the bag!

[Tarka Dal]

Hold on. Why is it that Rose has to go back to the parallel world, yet Mickey is able to stay in our one? I know her family are over there now, but Jackie had come back through. So thinking about all the damage to time n’ space stuff wouldn’t it just have been easier for the Doctor to go and get ‘alternative’ Pete and bring him back to our Earth?

[Pete Part Three]

>That article makes lots of good points, but I don?t think it applies to the Who finale. It?s almost the end of the RTD era, and so for me he?s totally justified in bringing back all his creations.

As justified as any writer bringing back his creations for a sequel. You just need to make sure they’ve got something substantial to do. A lot of them were, unfortunately, there for the sake of being there.

>Hold on. Why is it that Rose has to go back to the parallel world, yet Mickey is able to stay in our one?

There’s probably not a decent in-show reason for this. The real reason is “So we never have to see them again”.

This human doctor idea is underdeveloped though and deserving a bit more attention. He seemed remarkably fine with settling down with Rose while his counterpart get to swan off in the TARDIS. Are you telling me, he’s not going to miss that after 900 years of memories?

[Zombie Jim Undead]

The way he was largely mute and was being told where to go…

He ended up seeming like Rose’s inflatable Doctor sex toy.

And if timelord / human hybrids created in these circumstances cannot exist for long (i.e. Donna), how come he can?

[Author]

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