Home Forums Ganymede & Titan Forum The Spoilery Doctor Who Thread (The Next Doctor / Matt Smith casting)

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  • #88213
    pfm
    Participant

    Probably best if this thread dies now.

    #88214
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    >Oh and just because I don?t like ?Blink? you think my opinion is no longer valid

    I was quoting…

    #88215
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Why not get the guy who written ?Jubilee? and say write something original, I hate them re-making previous Who, why re-make it when you have a universe of ideas to explore.

    Well, how many people do you think have read Human Nature? A couple of hundred thousand, if that? How many people will have seen the TV version, in total? Close to ten million? Isn’t it good that Cornell gets to see what was, let’s face it, a bloody brilliant story brought to a wider audience?

    I have never met RTD but comments from him about people on message boards who don?t like his episodes are just, well, it is a bit up his arse of him to say we can?t not like his episode and discuss it isn?t it?

    Have you actually read what he says, or are you just taking it second-hand or going by assumption? Because he doesn’t say that people can’t like his episodes. What he doesn’t like is people making personal attacks against people like Helen Raynor.

    #88216
    JamesTC
    Participant

    How do I quote?

    I guess you are right about ‘Human Nature’, it is good to see it reach a bigger audience, its just I prefer it when Who goes into new original directions.

    Anyway I have read several interviews were RTD says fans on message boards don’t like his episodes and has mocked people on message boards, I don’t attack him personally until he does it to me. In one interview he compared fans to mosquitoes, too far I think, fine don’t like people on message boards but don;t mock us!
    I think when people attack RTD for being gay or for any other reason it is wrong accept for his writing, they can say they can hate an episode and even attack the episode (though not really apt word to use). He is in the proffesion of writing so when he says in interviews that people on message boards are like mosquitoes for mocking an episode of his then he should really stop working for such a high profile show, wait a minute.
    I actually like alot of RTDs episodes (Partners in Crime, Journeys End, Smith and Jones, The Christmas Invasion, The Next Doctor) and over all I praise them more than I bash episodes I hate (Parting of the Ways, Doomsday, Last of the Time Lords, Voyage of the Damned) and many other people on message boards are the same. Over all I just think certain comments from him have gotten me angry and have just led me to dis-like the guy, he is a good writer and a funny guy but he offends me too much.

    #88217
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >I think ?Blink? would probably be average for me if it wasn?t so overhyped, to me I watch Who to see that over-active alien from Gallifrey, not some bird (that is a double entendre) scared of statues

    SoundableObject; you’re obviously quite a big fan of Doctor Who, whereas muggins here has no interest in looking at the show pre-McGann days. However, I can say with absolute sincerity that Blink is the finest piece of TV Drama of the last ten years, regardless of how much the title character appears.

    #88218
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >SoundableObject; you?re obviously quite a big fan of Doctor Who

    Was it my DVD collection behind Mr Flibble that shown you?

    #88220
    ChrisM
    Participant

    However, I can say with absolute sincerity that Blink is the finest piece of TV Drama of the last ten years, regardless of how much the title character appears.

    Yes! I actually enjoy the fact that the Doctor has a small role in this episode. It’s a chance to do something different, and episodes without the Doctor are very much in the minimum anyway. How many have there been in new Who? Three? Four?

    Also, one of the interesting things about Blink! is that, although the Doctor’s role is small, it is still very central in it’s own way in the sense that he has the key required for the plot resolution. Ultimately it’s still about him, even though you might miss him if you … blink. (Sorry, couldn’t resist. Corny I know.)

    #88221
    ChrisM
    Participant

    >How do I quote?

    You can use the blockquote tag. i.e [blockquote] [/blockquote]

    Just replace the square brackets for angular.

    #88222
    si
    Participant

    Sorry, I’ve been away. Has anything happened in the last few hours?

    So. Matt Smith. He’s currently presenting the Football highlights on ITV1, doesn’t seem very Doctory.

    I jest, of course. I know it’s not *that* Matt Smith.

    Initial reaction? “Oh-kay…” It could have been a hell of a lot worse. I’m glad they didn’t go for a really established, star name, actor. Glad it’s not a woman/kid/token black/ethnic actor.
    Not really aware of much of his stuff – I watched The Ruby in the Smoke, but couldn’t really tell you much about him.
    My sister thinks he has a head shaped like a peanut, and hair like a walnut whip, but he has an oddness about him, which I think could work.
    A bit worried he could be a bit, well, Emo, but, as has been discussed here and elsewhere, Steven Moffat has shown that he is a man who can be trusted in these matters…

    #88223
    JamesTC
    Participant

    You can use the blockquote tag. i.e [blockquote] [/blockquote]

    Just replace the square brackets for angular.

    Thanks!

    #88225
    si
    Participant
    #88226
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    >Glad it?s not a woman/kid/token black/ethnic actor

    What would make an ethnic actor ‘token’, then? Would *anyone* ethnic be token or does is tokenness something only a few actors possess?

    #88227
    JamesTC
    Participant

    If it was a black actor he would be shrouded by that fact and not by the fact that he is the 11th Doctor. Even if he wasn’t “token” he would always be seen that way by the media which is a great shame.

    #88228
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    I think that’s balls, I’m afraid. And even if it was true, it’s no reason *not* to hire someone black.

    #88229
    JamesTC
    Participant

    I don’t think the production team were against a black Doctor, they just found the person they thought were best, I don’t doubt the award winning writer on his choice.

    #88230
    Andrew
    Participant

    > fine don?t like people on message boards but don;t mock us!

    Yeah, because that’s a depth online posters would never stoop to. Come on…

    #88231
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    > I don?t think the production team were against a black Doctor

    I wasn’t suggesting otherwise. I was just a little troubled by si seemingly lumping all black or ethnic possibilities as “token”.

    #88232
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    I think that’s being a bit presumptious. Yes it’s naive to think that it wouldn’t be mentioned at all, but if you excuse my wording I don’t think it’s so black and white. A lot of people were very excited about the idea of Paterson Joseph or Chiwetel Ejiofor simply because they are brilliant actors. One benefit of a talented black actor getting the role is that any subsequent casting of a black actor wouldn’t carry anywhere near as much stigma.

    #88235
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    Successful?

    Justified?

    #88239
    Andrew
    Participant

    And Karl gets 200 points for correctness.

    #88233
    JamesTC
    Participant

    > fine don?t like people on message boards but don;t mock us!

    Yeah, because that?s a depth online posters would never stoop to. Come on?

    High profile writers such as himself should really take the higher ground don’t you think, some people on message boards are idiots who mock the person, RTD is just copying them and is no better, so when he acts like he is better then them I just feel he is a little, whats the word?

    #88240
    Andrew
    Participant

    SoundableObject – every time you edit your posts they move to the bottom of the forum. Unless the change is really vital, once people have replied it’s best to leave them alone for the sake of the clear flow of discussion.

    #88241
    JamesTC
    Participant

    Yes, I’m sorry, I done it once and it did change the flow of the discussion, the next time it didn’t really matter, if it does change the flow of the discussion I will leave my spelling errors alone.

    #88242
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Where as I don’t agree with SO’s tone, I do think that RTD can be a huge pillock with his comments at times. He clearly has massive problems with OG (no right minded shouldn’t have problems with it, really) but his blanket chastising of ‘the Internet’ can seem horribly petty. It’s not *always* a bad thing that a large number of people can have their opinions aired, you know, and a great deal of those opinions are well considered and fair, even if they are sometimes saying that Helen Raynor has written two mainly rubbish stories.

    Back to Matt Smith (I’m trying to resist the temptation to moan about his boring, unmemorable name as I’ve already been told off for doing that by Julian and Gav) I now have a nice hi definition picture of him and the TARDIS as my background to try and hammer the imagry into my head and see if grows on me. I think it’s a bit of a mistake to show him with the TARDIS, though, as it implies that what he’ll look like as The Doctor, which simply can’t be something that’s been decided yet.

    #88243
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    (On the subject of the post editing bug, this *is* going to be fixed soon when G&T moves over to a more recent and better version of Drupal. We’re gonna need a more robust back-end (oooh pardon!) for the hopefully very busy period to come.

    #88244
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    His hair is very ‘Flock of Seagulls’. Clearly this was inspired by my attempted New-Romantic Doctor at the Series 3 party a few of us had.

    #88245
    pfm
    Participant

    > If it was a black actor he would be shrouded by that fact

    As opposed to being shrouded by his evil black skin. Black. Black!! Like the clouds of DEATH that follow me into the forest of DOOM and hide in the wardrobe of DARKNESS! BLACK! BLACK!! I’m a fly trapped in a bottle of SHADOWS!!

    We could never have had a black Doctor. I mean, we wouldn’t have been able to see him on the front of the annuals! and Silence In The Library would never have worked!

    #88247
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    And the thing about space, your basic space colour…

    #88251
    Andrew
    Participant

    Is it wrong that I’m quite taken with this bit of BBC News imagery?

    http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45343000/jpg/_45343497_new_doctor_tardis.jpg

    #88252
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    I have the larger version of that as my desktop in an attempt to hammer the imagery into my head. It is a lovely photo, though, but I’m not sure it was wise putting him with the TARDIS as it gives the impression that we’re seeing a fully realised Doctor rather than Matt Smith.

    #88253
    si
    Participant

    When I mentioned that ‘token’ thing, I wasn’t meaning to sound so pompous or political. What I meant was that the press would be reporting on ‘The first Black Doctor’, in the same way as they would have reported on ‘The first female Doctor’, as opposed to ‘The Eleventh Doctor’. Okay, so as it is, we’ve got ‘The Youngest Doctor’, but that’s nothing.

    Another thing. A point I wanted to make, without wanting to sound just as pompous and political, is that although the Doctor can change his body, all those years ago, he was born a White Male. If he could change into a woman, then surely you wouldn’t be able to differentiate between Time Lords and Ladies, yes? And so, I’d argue that skin tone isn’t so easily changed either – it’s not a matter of race, just remaining as you were born. Please don’t get upperty with me. I’m not a barrister, just expressing my thoughts.

    Plus, I didn’t want Paterson Joseph or Catherine Zeta Jones.

    #88254
    James
    Participant

    Is that the final costume? A dark Columbo? The Time Detective. It must be. To show it this way, it would be silly to have him in bright pink in the regeneration.

    #88256
    si
    Participant

    Dark Victoriana would be nice.

    #88259
    TheLeen
    Participant

    > You have to read this. This is brilliant?
    > http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/topic.php?uid=4701958740&topi…

    Those were my thoughts as well. That’d be quite a stunt.

    > Dark Victoriana would be nice.

    Yeah… and it’d be popular with the fangirls as well, I’m sure.

    #88263
    Andrew
    Participant

    > And so, I?d argue that skin tone isn?t so easily changed either – it?s not a matter of race, just remaining as you were born.

    While gender on Gallifrey is confirmed as relevant – people marry and breed – we don’t know that skin colour serves any purpose to them beyond an aesthetic one. If it is only a matter of appearance, then skin tone is reasonably as changeable as height, mouth shape, and eye or hair colour. All are generated the same way – which is to say not, as on Earth, simply via genetic heritage.

    As far as I know, there is no biological imperative that separates black from white which is akin to that which separates male from female. If a Time Lord’s wife awakes on day to find her husband is a woman, she has to change sexuality for the relationship to continue, which is ridiculous. If she wakes to find he’s gone from white to black, they’re fine. Unless she’s a member of the Gallifreyan Klan.

    #88267
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > she has to change sexuality for the relationship to continue

    Homophobe!

    #88287
    ChrisM
    Participant

    I love that photo and the black suit works well I think.

    P J Holden, an artist who has done a lot of work for 2000 AD did this excellent little caricature:

    Clickety click!

    He went for more Baker-type garb what with the scarf, but I think it’s great.

    #88291
    Al
    Participant

    In regards to the skin tone issue, something is tugging at the back of my mind from my academic days – I dont know how to phrase this as succinctly as I maybe should, but theres something about whether someone has black skin/features or white skin/features being a smaller difference on a genetic level than height, build, ear shape, mouth size, loads of other little minutae. Which, if you look at previous regenerations, never seemed to be a concern.

    #88293
    Dave
    Participant

    >Probably best if this thread dies now.

    It seems to have rallied and become relevent again. I’ve decided it’s best that I don’t comment on some of what’s been said.

    #88296
    si
    Participant

    Can’t someone start a new thread entitled ‘Matt Smith – The Eleventh Doctor’ or something? then we can start over.

    #88297
    Rad
    Participant

    Do we know how tall Matt Smith is?

    #88301
    Danny Stephenson
    Keymaster

    I’m no good at guessing the height of people, but I’d say he’s 18 million feet tall.

    #88308
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > I?ve decided it?s best that I don?t comment on some of what?s been said.

    Hmm. Dangling a carrot much? Out with it! Otherwise why bother commenting at all?

    #88311
    Ridley
    Participant

    And he better sort that fucking hair out before filming.

    I think he should keep it his interview look (just not that last shot on Confidential) because those clips of what he’s been in didn’t really give me any optimisim. Unlike Casanova for Tennant. In my opinion.

    #88315
    TheLeen
    Participant

    I think he should be CLEARLY distinguishable from Tennant’s Doctor, with his own unique look, and that means abandon the crazy hair, or give him an altogether different type of crazy hair.

    #88317
    ChrisM
    Participant

    Or shave it off all together! Doctor X!

    Ok, maybe not…

    It’s weird as I found his hair annoying…. yet I think it fits the character well.

    #88320
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    Maybe he should shave all his hair off, black-up and base his entire persona on the Marquis de Carabas from Neverwhere.

    It’s only a thought.

    Has anyone seen Gaiman’s journal? I’d love it for him to write a Who episode and if it’s in the Moffat-era all the better.

    #88321
    TheLeen
    Participant

    I don’t read Gaiman’s blog, but I open it every two weeks or so and do a text search for “doctor”.

    I, too, want this.

    #88322
    Dave
    Participant

    >Dangling a carrot much?

    Look at my beautiful carrot

    >It is popular and I higly enjoy it
    Have some gratitude then

    >but I hate RTD as a person
    As opposed to what? As a Louis XV chair? A pipecleaner? A papercut?

    >I will be much happier when he is far away from the show so I don?t have to here is up-he-arse comments about how great he is and how great the show is because it is all him being up his arse.
    Thorough.

    >Oh and ?Blink? was barely average if you ask me
    No one did.

    >the show is not called The amazing adventure of Sally Sparrow and co, I want to see the Doctor!
    And you did, more than you did in The Keys Of Marinus Parts 2 & 3, Mission To The Unknown, or The Massacre Parts 2 & 3 all of which went out under the banner Doctor Who. The effects of the Doctor’s travels on other people is a perfectly valid thing to explore, especially when revealing too much about your leading man is seen as unravelling the myth. The Doctor’s involvement in the episode as a fixed unchanging point was a very clever device.

    >it is easy to blink one eye at a time, try it.
    It’s called a wink

    >?Human Nature? was based on a virgin novel
    I haven’t read Human Nature and I probably never will, I loved the episodes, I loved Jessica Hynes, I loved Tennant’s performance.

    >hardly an original idea but a great two parter.
    I will grant you that ‘What if the Doctor were human?’ is not the hugest of intuitive leaps, but no one acted upon it before Paul Cornell. Give the man his dues. The setting, the tone of piece, the other characters are all beautifully chosen and balanced.

    >?Midnight? was repetitive and boring and too unoriginal for me.
    I think you’ve missed the point, but I forgive.

    >?Dalek? – Based on an audio called ?Jubilee?, it was about half as good.
    Dalek owes a debt to Jubilee, but it is not based slavishly on it, plus Jubilee struggles to fill 4 episodes even with a ‘who-is-that-mysterious-wheelchair-user’ subplot.

    >?Doomsday? – Hoover! I would like to re-name it ?Canon Fodder of the Daleks?
    Knock yourself out.

    >shame he didn?t use the Cybermen, he used some weird alternative robot.
    They are Cybermen, get over it.

    >?The Empty Child? – Brilliant, you can see why Moffat is getting the job.
    >?Girl in the Fireplace? – Brilliant, you can see why Moffat is getting the job.
    It’s obviously far easier to write one or two episodes a year than it is to orchestrate 14. I don’t think know yet how many episodes Moffat will actually write in Season 5 but I predict less than RTD.

    >?Silence in the Library? – Do I have to say it again.
    No

    >Lest we not forget the biggest punch in teh face for every hardcore Doctor Who fan in the shit fest that was ?Last of the Time Lords?, hello gollum, my you look like David Tennant, hello Jesus, my you look like David Tennant.
    Some hardcore Doctor Who fans need a big punch in the face. I didn’t like the gollum-esque Doctor either but to call the entire episode a shit fest is a bit of a stretch.

    >Lets all think world peace at the same time all across the world and see if it happens.
    Don’t knock it ’til you’ve tried it.

    >As much as it seems I dis-like the new series I do enjoy it
    It doesn’t seem like you enjoy it all. It barely seems like you deserve it.

    >It is just annoying because I enjoy the Confidential show and it is full of RTD comments which are just him being up his own arse.
    There it is again

    >He is a good writer as long as he sticks to small scale character driven plots,
    Like Midnight?

    >he needs some original ideas though.
    Like Midnight?

    >Well its got me exited, Who has a bright future once up-his-arse RTD leaves
    There it is again.

    >I was never so bitter to RTD until I listened to Big Finish Audio and saw just how much he steals
    Borrowed. With consent.

    >not some bird (that is a double entendre) scared of statues,
    If you have to tell me it’s a double entendre then it’s not a double entendre.

    >I guess when Who tries to be out-right scary I just lose interest.
    You are going to hate Series 5.

    >Midnight? was alot like ?The Edge of Destruction? in that an unknown alien was outside the ship and attacking
    That isn’t what happens in The Edge of Destruction.

    >I don?t attack him personally until he does it to me
    I think he?s sat at a keyboard right now writing SoundableObject is up his own arse

    >over all I praise them more than I bash episodes I hate
    Very magnanimous of you

    >Glad it?s not a woman/kid/token black/ethnic actor.
    How could casting a black Doctor be token?

    >I don?t doubt the award winning writer on his choice
    RTD is an award winning writer who made a pretty good choice too.

    >some people on message boards are idiots who mock the person
    I?d agree with that

    #88323
    TheLeen
    Participant

    > I think he?s sat at a keyboard right now writing SoundableObject is up his own arse

    Hahaha!

    #88324
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    *Yum, Yum*

    > *Moffat will actually write in Season 5 but I predict less than RTD.

    This just made me think. One thing I’m really going to miss in season 5 is ‘The Moffat episode’. Presumably he’ll do the opener, season finale and maybe one or two more to move the arc along, but I won’t get that here comes the higlight of my series feeling anymore. Still hopefully Cornell, Gaiman etc will be drafted in and it won’t be missed.

    Smith mentioned that he had read scripts for episodes 1 and 4. It’s an assumption but the opener has to be Moff surely? I would assume the finale would be as well and hopefully that episode 4 script too. So that’s at least three.

    #88325
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >>I guess when Who tries to be out-right scary I just lose interest.
    >You are going to hate Series 5.
    I doubt Moffat will make it out right scary all the way through, I think he will move to comedy for atleast the first episode.

    >>Midnight? was alot like ?The Edge of Destruction? in that an unknown alien was outside the ship and attacking
    >That isn?t what happens in The Edge of Destruction.
    I used the wrong word, unknown force was disrupting the TARDIS, ‘Midnight’ was a little too much like ‘The Edge of Destruction’ for me, not to say it wasn’t a good episode, I just think many new series episodes get too much praise, ‘Blink’ and ‘Doomsday’ mainly.

    Matt Smith mentioned he read episode 1 and 4 and it sounded like Moffat written both of them.

    By the way I wouldn’t watch the new series if I wasn’t a fan, episodes like ‘Last of the Time Lords’ make me angry when they are meant to be epic and have the opposite effect (ever heard of less is more?) but so do classic series episodes, ‘Time and the Rani’ is the definition of pile of shit.
    I seem bitter to the new series because it is not what it used to be or what it is in Big Finish, the viewer deserves more than CGI that really is not very good in the first place compared with other shows, ‘The Lazerus Emperiment’ was terrible. RTD written an intelligent storyline in ‘The Next Doctor’ but look what happened, big CGI robot, what was the point? It didn’t ruin the episode but it would have been alot better without it, one is reminded of the robot from ‘Robot’, couldn’t they learn it was a bad idea then, it is a bad idea now.
    I also think RTD is pushing the “gay” agenda down too much, “not that theres anything wrong with that” as in being gay but looking over episodes I am just shocked by the amount of gay characters, it is unrealistic, I have nothing wrong with a gay character but the amount he bringsd in is just sticking it too far down us, why didn’t he bring in a gay companion, does Jack count?
    I don’t want an intelligent story every time, RTD gets the definition of fun romp perfect in his opening stories, they set a great tone for the rest of the series.

    #88326
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    I actually thought RTD was going to push a gay agenda more so than I think he ever did. Captain Jack as a companion is always such a joy and I love the playful sexual aspect he brought to the show without ever manifestly shoving it down your throat.

    Torchwood is obviously far more in your face, but then why shouldn’t homosexuality and bisexuality be upfront and a huge part of the mix in a spin-off show that’s always been pushed as an adult sci-fi show. My only trouble with Torchwood is that… well it’s shit.

    #88327
    TheLeen
    Participant

    > I am just shocked by the amount of gay characters, it is unrealistic,

    How many gay characters are there in Doctor Who? I’ve seen them all now and I can remember really only Jack Harkness. How could that be unrealistically many?! (If even the realistic 10-30% of characters in Who were gay or bi, I would’ve noticed!!)

    #88328
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >>the show is not called The amazing adventure of Sally Sparrow and co, I want to see the Doctor!
    >And you did, more than you did in The Keys Of Marinus Parts 2 & 3, Mission To The Unknown, or The Massacre Parts 2 & 3 all of which went out under the banner Doctor Who. The effects of the Doctor?s travels on other people is a perfectly valid thing to explore, especially when revealing too much about your leading man is seen as unravelling the myth. The Doctor?s involvement in the episode as a fixed unchanging point was a very clever device.

    I saw a repeat of the Doctor in DVDs and two scenes with him in, in stories you mentioned and I can add ‘The Seeds of Death’ to that the person playing teh Doctor needed a holiday, through each of those episodes the companion took centre stage, like in ‘Turn Left’, it still felt like Doctor Who, ‘Blink’ did not, it felt as I said like the amazing adventures of Sally Sparrow.
    ‘Mission to the Unknown’ was about the Daleks, when you see the Daleks it feels like Who.

    >>shame he didn?t use the Cybermen, he used some weird alternative robot.
    >They are Cybermen, get over it.

    They are made on a parralel earth and not Mondas or Telos, not the proper Cybermen, I call them Cybusmen.

    #88329
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >not some bird (that is a double entendre) scared of statues

    Sally Swallows?

    And to say that Turn Left is better than Blink is WRONG.

    Aside from that, Last of the Time Lords was pretty shit.

    #88330
    JamesTC
    Participant

    The old women in ‘Gridlock’, they have two guys in ‘The unicorn and the Wasp’. ‘Voyage of the Damned’ has one doesn’t it?
    Jack is a great companion, while he doesn’t push it down you he is still obvious, don’t know how its done.
    I think most gay people are not really obvious about it, I don’t see why he can’t just make a characters with an unspecified sexuality.
    I do think characters like Jack are needed though, a positive gay role model leads children away from seeing it as a bad thing as is the perspective today from many kids, I just think Jack has done the job and now is in Torchwood, no more needed to be that obvious.

    #88331
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >And to say that Turn Left is better than Blink is WRONG.

    No, it is an opinion which alot of people disagree with, if everyone in the word thought I was wrong it doesn’t mean I am, it just means I have different taste.

    #88332
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > when you see the Daleks it feels like Who.

    Maybe I’m unique in this but this isn’t me. My first Who memories were the end of the Baker.C era and then Bonnie Langford, McCoy and Ace. I went to MOMI to see a some Doctor Who exhibits when I was a bit older and the combination of that and scattered old Who eps on UK Gold mean that for me Who = being slightly scared/creeped out and yet exhilirated about what I was seeing and the infinite cosmos. The monsters I associate this with are Sea Monsters, Sontarans and a man-size Bertie Bassett.

    So for me ‘Blink’ was every bit a Who episode. Sally Sparrow = us. The viewer. A normal person, bit inqusitive and one of the classic all-time Doctor Who monsters – An enemy who only moves when you’re not looking. Instead of just idly sitting by and watching the Doctor wave his sonic screwdriver and fix everything he can only offer guidance and the human, the person we all could be is the one who has to work it all out. It’s bloody brilliant.

    > Sally Swallows?

    Have I told you lately that I love you?

    #88333
    JamesTC
    Participant

    I guess since I got into Who in 2003 it was the point were it could not be scary just entertaining. The only enemy that has sent a chill down my spine was the Dalek in ‘The Dalek Invasion of Earth’ coming out of the Water, now that was brilliant, coming out of the sand was not such a good idea though as is seen in ‘The Chase’. I’m not a guy to watch a scary film, don’t see the point really, I would rather watch a comedy, a smart film or an action film so when I watch Who I would rather it be a comedy, a smart story or full of action (The latest Sontaran two parter, spot on).

    #88334
    TheLeen
    Participant

    > I don?t see why he can?t just make a characters with an unspecified sexuality.

    I don’t see why you think every character with an unspecified sexuality to be heterosexual.

    #88335
    ChrisM
    Participant

    The old women in ?Gridlock?, they have two guys in ?The unicorn and the Wasp?. ?Voyage of the Damned? has one doesn?t it?

    That’s not that many if you think about it. Especially as they’re scattered about. There are a lot more homosexual people than you might think. Two of my closest female friends are inclined that way (one gay, the other sort-of-bi), and I didn’t meet them in a gay club, this is pure coincidence. If there’s such a thing.) If I were a character in a book that might look unrealistic or as if the author had a gay agenda. (Or I’m just the unluckiest single guy in the universe. ;) )

    It did get ridiculous in Torchwood though… Everyone in the team having inclinations that way? (Sure Gwen was under the influence but even so..)

    #88336
    Andrew
    Participant

    > I also think RTD is pushing the ?gay? agenda down too much

    How did I know that was coming…

    > I am just shocked by the amount of gay characters, it is unrealistic,

    The fact that you’re ‘shocked’ at the number of gay characters only shows how necessary the agenda is, frankly. Are you shocked at the number of black characters, too?

    ‘Unrealistic’ is my favourite, though. Unless you it’s well over, say, ten percent of the characters seen (you’ve named six in four years), it’s not only realistic, it’s STILL under-representative.

    > They are made on a parralel earth and not Mondas or Telos, not the proper Cybermen,

    Discrimination!

    > I?m not a guy to watch a scary film, don?t see the point really

    Then could it be that the issue of Who’s scariness is yours rather than the shows? Where did you think all the ‘behind the sofa’ stories came from? What did you think people meant when they said they were scared by Midnight, Blink, The Empty Child, The Impossible Planet? It’s not a mass hallucination.

    > The latest Sontaran two parter, spot on.

    And there you have it.

    #88337
    Andrew
    Participant

    > > I don?t see why he can?t just make a characters with an unspecified sexuality.

    > I don?t see why you think every character with an unspecified sexuality to be heterosexual.

    Marleen being brilliant, there.

    The women in Gridlock were married. That’s all. Two married people. Donna’s parents were married, too. What crazy, heterosexual propaganda!

    #88338
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > The old women in ?Gridlock?, they have two guys in ?The unicorn and the Wasp?. ?Voyage of the Damned? has one doesn?t it?

    So that’s 4 gay characters then and we’ve had what 56 (?) episodes of New Who. Right let’s have some fun with Maths. How many characters would you say the Doctor meets in an average adventure..one? two, three? Let’s go with three although it’s often more.

    3 * 52 = 158. 4 / 158 = 0.025. Convert that as a percentage and we’ve 2.5%

    And our survey says…

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1505277/Six-per-cent-of-population-are-gay-or-lesbian,-according-to-Whitehall-figures.html

    SIX PERCENT! Crikey. RTD better bring back The Master and Davros for a big ol’ gay-romp-gang-bang-finale!! Throw in a couple of Dalek’s too.

    “EJACULATE! EJACULATE!”

    > I think most gay people are not really obvious about it,

    Repression? Homophobia? Perhaps we should consider alien concepts here that don’t include flying pepperpots and men in tin-foil suits.

    > I don?t see why he can?t just make a characters with an unspecified sexuality.

    Like for instance every character who isn’t shown to have a romantic involvement.

    #88339
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > It did get ridiculous in Torchwood though? Everyone in the team having inclinations that way? (Sure Gwen was under the influence but even so..)

    Of course a women with Lesbian tendencies won’t do a thing for the average red-blooded male Torchwood viewer.

    #88340
    JamesTC
    Participant

    There have been more than the ones I mentioned, just can’t remember now. It is right to discuss the issues in a kids show buit not to continue using it, just do that and then carry on.
    I have two friends who are gay, both rescent too, I have nothing wrong with people being gay though I am in the field which believes it is biological rather then a choice.
    Yes the “gay” thing is brought up alot, it is because this is a kids show, we have had Jack and he comes back regualry, obviously gay but who cares, with other characters it is completely irelevant to the plot and put in their for the sake of it promoting “gay” which I feel is not needed.

    >> They are made on a parralel earth and not Mondas or Telos, not the proper Cybermen,
    >Discrimination!
    They are made on different worlds and are completely different things, Cybusmen are brains in a big shell, the Cybermen are humans who were dying and so needed to survive by adding mechanical parts to themselves. I found the Cybusmen closer to the Daleks especially with their cringe worthy catchphrase “Delete”.

    >> I?m not a guy to watch a scary film, don?t see the point really
    >Then could it be that the issue of Who?s scariness is yours rather than the shows?
    It is mine, you are right, its my opinion, if i hate ‘Last of the Time Lords’ their is obviously a large portion of the general public who loved it, thing is what they think won’t change what I think though overrated things sort of get to me, I don’t know why. ‘Blink’ is a fine episode if you are into that sort of story but I’m not and it is why I didn’t really like it, its my problem.

    >> The latest Sontaran two parter, spot on.
    >And there you have it.
    Do people on not understand opinions? The Sontarans two parter outside the awful catchphrase (I see a pattern) was great, the new costume was fantastic, better than ever, the first part was not promising but the second part explained it all and in the end it was highly enjoyable.

    #88341
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Companion talk:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/4108697/Search-for-new-Doctor-Whos-partner-begins.html

    “We saw a dozen or so people, some of them black. There was never any resistance to the idea of a black Doctor and it would have got us all sorts of headlines and brownie points”

    Chortle.

    Anyway, some worrying names in there, but if Kelly Brook were cast I would be happy because I’m not one of those disgusting gays RTD keeps banging on about.

    #88342
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > it is completely irelevant to the plot and put in their for the sake of it promoting ?gay? which I feel is not needed.

    So was that opinion or fact? Just to clarify.

    I shouldn’t argue so much, I agree with one or two of your points, it’s just so much fun.

    #88343
    JamesTC
    Participant

    Oh I’m having fun too, I love a good argument, I am getting a little desperate now arn’t I? I just want it to continue.

    >> it is completely irelevant to the plot and put in their for the sake of it promoting ?gay? which I feel is not needed.
    >So was that opinion or fact? Just to clarify.
    It is an opinion, many people might think characters are part of the plot no matter how small the character.

    #88344
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > Anyway, some worrying names in there, but if Kelly Brook were cast I would be happy because I?m not one of those disgusting gays RTD keeps banging on about.

    So you would oppose the idea of Rachel Stevens and Kelly Brook as nymphomaniac twins from the planet LesBos?

    #88346
    JamesTC
    Participant

    > So you would oppose the idea of Rachel Stevens and Kelly Brook as nymphomaniac twins from the planet LesBos?

    Save that for the weird fan fiction. I read one which included the Sixth Doctor, Peri, a skimpy robe and punishment from a power shower, I will never look at my favourite Doctor in the same way, I still look at Peri the same way.

    #88345
    TheLeen
    Participant

    > Yes the ?gay? thing is brought up alot, it is because this is a kids show

    And that’s another thing I don’t get, what does Who being a kids’ programme have to do with anything?

    Telly shows people. There are tall and short, fat and thin, gay and straight people in the world. Straight couples are on tv all the time, especially in kids’ programmes, so gay couples should, too. Being gay is not out of the ordinary, and the best thing to ensure that something is perceived as out of the ordinary is to not have shown the thing to children 20 years ago. Keeping gay characters out of children’s telly is an agenda, if anything.

    #88349
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    Likewise some people are appallingly bad actors or actresses so isn’t it great that Who has represented that minority too?

    #88351
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >we have had Jack and he comes back regualry, obviously gay but who cares,

    I was under the impression that Jack was trisexual.

    #88352
    Andrew
    Participant

    > we have had Jack and he comes back regualry, obviously gay but who cares

    So once you’ve had one gay character, that’s the box ticked and we can all move on?

    > with other characters it is completely irelevant to the plot and put in their for the sake of it promoting ?gay? which I feel is not needed.

    You’ll have to help me out on why ‘including’ is the same as ‘promoting’. What the show does is include gay characters, not ‘promote’ them. It deems them normal, that’s all. Regular, part of. It’s not “Hey darling, try this, it’s fun!’ Marleen’s spot on – you don’t know which characters are gay, beyond the few whose romantic interactions are relevant to the story or their character.

    “The old women in ?Gridlock?” are two married people. You can’t mean ‘It would have been better if it was a man an a woman’. Why? What’s the difference?

    The “two guys in ?The unicorn and the Wasp?”. It’s a 1920s mystery story about hidden secrets. Their secret is an affair, given a layer of poignancy by the fact that the guy is unable to express his grief publicly. It’s a comment on the mores of the time. Again, you can’t possibly mean ‘It would have been better if it had been a heterosexual affair’. Why would it?

    Lesley Sharp in Gridlock? Her grief, her intent to take a final trip and commit suicide, would have been somehow more reasonable if she’d lost a male partner? In what universe?

    Which examples are so off-the-wall offensive as to be deemed promotion, irrelevant to plot AND character (plot ain’t everything)? Which ones do you mean?

    > Do people on not understand opinions?

    Completely. You don’t like Blink and think the latest Sontaran story was Doctor Who as it should be. That is your opinion, and it clarifies, to some degree, your perspectives and tastes. And there, as I said before, you have it.

    #88353
    Andrew
    Participant

    > >we have had Jack and he comes back regualry, obviously gay but who cares,

    > I was under the impression that Jack was trisexual.

    Indeed. Though I always preferred omnisexual.

    But then who wouldn’t?

    #88354
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    I just… the idea that someone could like the Sontaran two-parter more than Blink is as baffling to me as the question of why Carey Mulligan has stopped taking my calls.

    #88355
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > I was under the impression that Jack was trisexual.

    Well you would wouldn’t you.

    …Oh I see Andrew beat me to that one.

    #88356
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >The ?two guys in ?The unicorn and the Wasp??. It?s a 1920s mystery story about hidden secrets. Their secret is an affair, given a layer of poignancy by the fact that the guy is unable to express his grief publicly. It?s a comment on the mores of the time. Again, you can?t possibly mean ?It would have been better if it had been a heterosexual affair?. Why would it?
    Guess your right! It was an episode I don’t remember very well as the last time I saw it was original broadcast when I usually don’t pat too much attention, I usually re-watch episodes a few weeks later but I have not got round to it.

    >?The old women in ?Gridlock?? are two married people. You can?t mean ?It would have been better if it was a man an a woman?. Why? What?s the difference?

    Would not have been better or worse, I just found it show horning the idea in, it felt like it, doesn’t mean that was what RTD was intending.

    I know there is more gay characters in either series 1 or series 3 as I have not sene both for quite some time. It is much worse in Torchwood though RTD has only written one episode of that up to now so I don’t know if that is his doing.

    I’m not going to discuss this anymore since really its not a major thing for me, the main problem as I see with RTD is his view on what is epic, millions of aliens attacking earth and killing of a bunch of people is not what I call epic, I think less is more, I felt that he got it right in ‘Journeys End’ when most of the action took place in one room, it felt smaller and to me more epic. Stories like ‘Parting of the Ways’,’Doomsday’ and ‘Last of the Time Lords’ are just over the top which go so over the top an ending is immpossible, while the ending to ‘Journeys End’ was a little out of the blue I could imagine Davros putting a switch to destroy the Daleks in his room, he hasn’t had a good track record with them has he?

    #88357
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    the main problem as I see with RTD is his view on what is epic, millions of aliens attacking earth and killing of a bunch of people is not what I call epic, I think less is more, I felt that he got it right in ?Journeys End? when most of the action took place in one room, it felt smaller and to me more epic

    Can you get a dictionary before you carry this on? I can see a point fighting to make its way out, but until you find out that “epic” isn’t the word you’re looking for, you’re going to struggle.

    #88358
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    The very idea of one of us having Carey Mulligan’s phone number.

    *Come on lads group…*

    #88359
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >I just? the idea that someone could like the Sontaran two-parter more than Blink is as baffling to me as the question of why Carey Mulligan has stopped taking my calls.

    I have explained it is not my type of story so the Sontaran two-parter which was very good (about 7.5/10) was better in my view then ‘Blink’ which was about 5/10, average, because it is not my type of story, its like if you hate musicals and they made a musical episode of Doctor Who and everybody loved it but you hate musicals and so hate the episode.
    Plus I am a complete fanboy who loves old enemies being returned, the Sontarans were done justice in that episode, in ‘The Two Doctors’ the Sontrans were awful though the story itself was fantastic, to see the Sontarans back as a great enemy was very satifying.

    #88361
    Andrew
    Participant

    > I know there is more gay characters in either series 1 or series 3 as I have not sene both for quite some time. It is much worse in Torchwood though RTD has only written one episode of that up to now so I don?t know if that is his doing.

    I think your choice of the word ‘worse’ there shows exactly why this aspect of the discussion does, indeed, need to end.

    #88362
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    Whilst old villains returning is a great fanboy thing the lifeblood of the series is reliant on new enemies. The future lies in new enemies, not re-cycling old ones. RTD’s time has been great but one of the things I’m most looking forward to about Moff as show-runner is a finale where it’s not guess which classic baddie will turn up this time. We know the Doctor can beat the old guys. We know their weak points. New enemies need new solutions.

    #88363
    JamesTC
    Participant

    I hope that the finales arn’t a big deal under Moffat.
    I also hope Moffat leaves classic enemies for a while but I hope by about series 7 he returns one, the Sea Devils would be great.
    As long as the Daleks don’t return I will be happy, they have returned 5 times in four years, the only time that has happened in the past was when Who was starting and back then it was in the middle of Dalek Mania!

    #88367
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > I hope that the finales arn?t a big deal under Moffat.

    ?!?

    #88369
    pfm
    Participant

    The Daleks WILL return at some point, of that I think there’s no doubt. Classic non-Cybus Cybermen would also be great. They need to make them more frightening by emphasising the converted human aspect of them. Ditch the Robocop look. Make us look past ‘oh no, it’s the Cybermen again…’.

    There are plenty of classic monsters/villains who could reappear and it wouldn’t be any problem at all. Considering The Claws of Axos was sort of mentioned in Last of the Time Lords they could bring the Axons back in a different way. The Eternals, the Silurians, the Sea Devils, the Ice Warriors (rumoured for one of the specials). Then you’ve got RTD era enemies like the Sycorax and Gelth.

    #88377
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    The thing with most of RTD’s returning enemies is that they were created for one specific story and have thus had their stories closed quite convincingly.

    The Ood were different and worked excellently when brought back and I think the Sycorax would be a great one to re-visit. Also, anyone want to bet we’ll get some Raxacoricofalapitorians in one of the specials? RTD’s tried to fit them into a number of stories since series 1 and there’s no way he’ll leave without bringing them back to Who one more time.

    But, yes, sign me up to the ‘More original monsters from Moffat’ camp.

    #88383
    JamesTC
    Participant

    The Slitheen are coming back in a novel in March-April as are the Daleks and the Judoon, I doubt we will see any of them enemies next year because of this.

    #88389
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Ah, fair enough.

    It’s strange how the plans for future merchandise has often been the most reliable and definite confirmation of the return of certain people; The Master and Davros boxsets being the best examples.

    #88393
    JamesTC
    Participant

    Those boxsets were actually a coincedance, I spoke to the head of the classic Doictor Who DVD range Dan Hall and he said if he actually knew the Master was returning he would have called it its original title of ‘The Return of the Master’ or something else with The Master in it. As with the Davros boxset he was quite surprised when I told him Davros was set to return the week before ‘The Stolen Earth’ aired, he said he would remember to set the tape :)

    #88396
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Yeah, ok.

    #88399
    JamesTC
    Participant

    I could find you the exact quote if you don’t believe me.

    #88401
    JamesTC
    Participant

    “We don’t have any insider knowledge – had I known the master was returning I would have called New Beginnings “Return of the Master” and put it out when series 3 was on air!”, that is Matthew Parkes from 2E, it is taken from a topic called connections in the 2E section of DWO, page 13 if you want to check, you need an account on there, its free to make one.

    #88402
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    You were speaking to your friend, the head of the Classic Doctor Who DVD range, via a citable publication?

    #88403
    JamesTC
    Participant

    A further reply on the same topic by Dan Hall, bearing in mind this was from October 2007 –
    “We have been VERY lucky with the Master. But certainly there are no links with the New Series. Speculators have taken the Davros box set as evidence that he’s coming back in S4. I have no idea whether he is. I commissioned this box set back when the news broke that Rose was leaving! I didn’t even know about the Master back then.

    It is a can of worms to start to integrate the two schedules. Best keep them apart. And anyway, there’s no hurry. Once a monster gets into the public psyche, it’ll stay there for a while!”

    #88404
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >You were speaking to your friend, the head of the Classic Doctor Who DVD range, via a citable publication?
    It is actually the people from 2E on DWO, they have Colin Baker, Paul McGann, Georgia Moffet, Gareth Roberts and many more people in their ask and answer section, you ask a question, they answer, 2E are a member, go on there and you will see that, it is official, not some random guy who says he is the head of 2E Doctor Who classic series releases.

    #88405
    JamesTC
    Participant

    Oh if it wasn’t clear it is http://www.drwho-online.co.uk

    #88406
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    My last glib remark was being written as you were posting about where your information came from. So, yeah, sorry, I just got the impression you were referring to some sort of private conversation between you and him.

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