Take the fifth! News Posted by Ian Symes on 4th February 2021, 12:04 This is probably the most unpleasant news story we’ve had to cover in the more than eighteen years this site has been going. Not least because it involves linking to the Daily Mail, who today report that Doug Naylor is suing Rob Grant and Grant Naylor Productions, following Doug’s removal from the board of the company last year. To save you from clicking onto that shithole, the relevant parts of the article are below, and below that is our initial reaction. [Doug Naylor] has just initiated a dramatic High Court action against his former co-scriptwriter and one-time best friend, Rob Grant. The claim also names Grant Naylor Productions, the company which he and Grant established 30 years ago ‘to exploit their services as scriptwriters’. In his claim, Naylor, 65, says that he was removed last March as a director from the company’s board — just four days after the company held an Extraordinary General Meeting. ‘I have brought this claim as a last resort,’ Naylor assures me. ‘This is not primarily a claim about money.’ He is, though, claiming £160,096.80, partly for allegedly unpaid invoices dating back to 2018. He also alleges in his claim that following his removal as a director, the company informed UKTV that he ‘had resigned’ and claimed that it ‘retained all rights in Red Dwarf’. At the time, Naylor was in negotiations with UKTV and claims that, had it not been for his removal as a director, ‘those negotiations . . . would have resulted in UKTV commissioning two further Red Dwarf specials’. Grant could not be reached for comment, while Grant Naylor Productions declined to do so. ‘I have been excluded from Grant Naylor Productions, the company I co-founded and which bears my name,’ Naylor tells me. ‘I want to make sure that I get back the rights to allow me to keep making Red Dwarf, the show I have been writing for more than 20 years. ‘It is bizarre and regrettable that Grant Naylor Productions and its other shareholders are trying to prevent me from doing so. ‘I’m sure that Red Dwarf fans and the much-loved cast would agree.’ The article then goes on to discuss the requirement of an intimacy coach for numerous sex scenes, but it turns out that bit was about a different show, thankfully. But anyway. First of all: for fuck’s sake. Nobody wants this. It’s hard to know how to respond, so let’s begin with addressing the veracity of the piece. I’d normally be loathed to describe anything in the Daily Mail as “accurate”, but the fact that it carries direct quotes from Doug, and is bizarrely specific with some of the details – even down to the number of pennies that Doug’s claiming – shows that it’s not been completely plucked out of someone’s arse. It’s also true that Doug is no longer a director of Grant Naylor Productions, as of 13th March 2020, leaving Rob Grant, Paul Jackson and Lesley Armitage (widow of Charles) in charge of the company. By the way, I wouldn’t read much into the Companies House website stating that Doug “resigned” on that date – it also says that Charles Armitage “resigned” in February 2017, which isn’t quite how I’d describe what happened. Must be just their terminology. So those are the facts. What appears to be disputed is the how and why of this state of affairs coming about. There’s no way we’re going to be speculating too wildly about what appears to be an ongoing court case, and we’d urge you to be balanced and considerate in your comments too. What we will say at this stage is this: 1. We only have one side to this story as things stand. 2. The timing of this news – days before the Fan Club’s Holly Hop virtual con, at which Rob Grant features heavily – is less than ideal. 3. Whoever wins, we lose. This is a horrible, horrible day for Red Dwarf fans, as we find ourselves cast as the unfortunate children stuck in the middle of an increasingly messy and vicious divorce. For one thing, I don’t much like the line from Doug in the article about being sure that the fans would agree with him – I’d prefer to make my own mind up, and I can’t do that until we’ve heard from the other party. But mostly, I don’t want to have to fucking choose between Rob and Doug in the first place. They both created – together – the show that has shaped my life. I love them both as writers, and I owe them both so much. Why can’t you two get on?! It’s never easy for Red Dwarf, is it? Never fucking easy. When the show returned in 2009, it smashed all sorts of records for UKTV, and instantly became its new broadcaster’s most important property by far. That was twelve years ago, and they’ve managed to make three new series and a special since then. Don’t get me wrong, we’re grateful that we’ve had even that, but when you’ve got commissioners chomping at the bit for new material and you can only manage to get your shit together to deliver it on three individual occasions in twelve years… well, we’ve always known that there was something seriously amiss behind the scenes. This latest development certainly won’t help. While I take with a pinch of salt the claim that two new specials would definitely have been commissioned by now if it wasn’t for Doug’s dispute with GNP – for a start, this all happened in March 2020, so there maaaaaay just have been other factors at play in any decision – the future is looking pretty bleak at the moment. How can Red Dwarf continue in its current form after this? We knew that Doug was no longer a director of GNP, but assumed that some arrangement was in place that allowed him to continue to work on the show itself. But if the relationship between Doug and the rest of the board is this toxic… well, Red Dwarf is dead. That’s it. However, there are some significant “ifs” there. I’m clinging on to another one – if this can be resolved amicably, if Rob and Doug can put at least some of their differences aside, if a compromise can be made, then it’s surely in everyone’s interests to allow this hugely popular and profitable property to continue. Never say never. Sometimes you live, you die, and then you live again. Right now though, I’m hurt and I’m angry. It’s depressing and infuriating that the situation has escalated to this point. This is a dark day for Red Dwarf.
Its gonna be hard to enjoy that new Rob Grant Script in a few days knowing that he may have killed legit Red Dwarf
Well, he might have. Or he and his fellow directors may have decided to they want more control, maybe following an action by Doug that they were not happy with. Maybe Rob wants to do his own Dwarf stuff on telly or otherwise. All a mess, but any new Dwarf with the current cast was always a bonus. If that’s it, it went out on a high at least.
Yeah, this is all very sad and disappointing. Not just the likelihood of it killing the prospect of new Red Dwarf but also the shadow it casts over everything related to the show. I had hoped that the increased involvement of Rob in recent years with stuff like the Quarantine commentaries or fan events was a positive sign of warmth and a thawing of relations all round, but this feels like it’s snapped everything back in completely the opposite direction.
I never imagined a fucking lawsuit being the end of Red Dwarf. Who would?? I hope this can get resolved SOMEHOW but….yikes.
Way too soon to start talking about Rob having “killed legit Red Dwarf”. Things are always complicated in business and I’m sure there must be a fascinating tale to tell about how all this came to pass. I’m equally certain that it won’t be as simple as one side being right and the other being wrong…
Its gonna be hard to enjoy that new Rob Grant Script in a few days knowing that he may have killed legit Red Dwarf Indeed… I had blithely assumed that seeing Rob Grant appearing with more Dwarf things recently could only be bounteously positive. Apparently not so much. Announcing soon: “Red Dwarf Rebooted. Produced by Dave (no not that one) and featuring all your favourite cast members from the Holly Hop Table Read with all new Rob Grant scripts”
Way too soon to start talking about Rob having “killed legit Red Dwarf”. Things are always complicated in business and I’m sure there must be a fascinating tale to tell about how all this came to pass. I’m equally certain that it won’t be as simple as one side being right and the other being wrong… Very much this.
Hmm, going to be interesting seeing this develop. Rob has been unquestionably more active in Dwarf terms of late, being on-set for the AA ads, contributing the Holly Hop script, and doing the quarantine commentaries. But if he looking to edge more into actively producing Dwarf, it’s hard to see how removing Doug from the equation helps. I could understand a shake up at GNP after the shoddy production management problems on Back to Earth and Series X. But bringing Babycow in resolved those issues neatly, and XI through TPL seem to have generally been produced without incident… We just need to wait and see I guess. We don’t have near enough info to even guess at what’s actually happening behind the scenes. Hopefully it’ll resolve for the positive, but my gut feeling right now is that TPL may be televised Dwarf’s last hurrah.
Obviously, this has been bubbling along in the last quarter of a century but it seems strange that it has now kicked off. Almost exactly the same time Rob seemed to rediscover his enthusiasm of the small rouge one- a coincidence or not we shall see. All in all a tad concerning. I think they need to sit around a table, have a drink- whatever’s your poison, and sort this out.
Like he has no interest in RD for close to 30 years then comes back and suddenly now the future of it is a mess. Unless Doug took a shit in the GNP offices its hard to see how he is the bad guy
my gut feeling right now is that TPL may be televised Dwarf’s last hurrah. It’s hard not to feel that way at the moment. Even if this is ultimately resolved in a way that allows TV Dwarf to continue, it may take a while to sort out, during which time the show won’t be commissioned and the window for it being practical to make Red Dwarf with this cast will continue to narrow. Let’s just hope it’s all resolved as quickly and amicably as possible.
Like he has no interest in RD for close to 30 years then comes back and suddenly now the future of it is a mess. Unless Doug took a shit in the GNP offices its hard to see how he is the bad guy The truth is that we’re not privy to a lot of what goes on behind the scenes. I think we should be careful not to rush to any kind of judgements here.
So part of me is thinking that for Doug to have been removed (as he said) from GNP board of directors he must have been doing something (presumably with Red Dwarf as that’s all he does) that the rest of GNP weren’t happy with. And whilst the output has been generally well received by us lot bar a few hiccups, perhaps there is much more going on behind the scenes than we know. The only reason I could speculate that you’d remove a director that is actively making content for your company is if they’re spunking money away and not really making any. i.e. Red Dwarf isn’t or hasn’t been a profitable endeavour (and I’d imagine the blu-ray sets haven’t sold half as well as they expected). But who knows. As Ian rightly says we only have one side of it. It would seem strange that Rob et al weren’t happy with Doug’s handling of the franchise but then support and appear on set etc for the AA ads. Maybe they really were in trouble money wise and that was a quick cash booster. It would help explain why Doug hasn’t been paid (if that is indeed true, though you don’t go to court over unpaid invoices if the other party can prove they were settled) and perhaps why there are longer gaps between series as they have to scrap the funding together. Anyway, that’s all speculation based on a few quotes from one party. It’ll be interesting yet sad to see this unfold. Whatever has caused this probably does mean Red Dwarf as we currently know it won’t continue. Even if Rob picked up the reins he’d likely do something completely new and different rather than carry on from TPL. I’d assumed Doug resigning directorship was just him stepping down from the company board but would continue to write Red Dwarf on a contractual basis etc but evidently not. Sad times for us all.
I see my request for balanced and considerate comments has been noted by the regulars, but not by people who registered an account just to comment on this story. I am shocked.
This is really sad – despite obvious professional differences, I was always under the impression that Rob and Doug were still friends, albeit distant ones. The existence of the Bodysnatcher DVD is enough to show they were even capable of working together, and Doug’s suggestion that he always reaches out to Rob when he wants to make new Dwarf adds to it. Both being present for the AA ads shows there was clearly an amicable relationship there very recently. The fact that this is going to court just seems really strange, and I find it impossible to believe that Rob and GNP are going to come out of this in a good light: whatever way you look at it, it’s Doug who’s kept the show going for the past 25 years; the idea that he might be stopped from doing so by people whose only input in that time will have been at a fairly nominal executive level is utterly ridiculous. The only thing I can imagine causing this would be Doug himself trying to block Rob from making new Dwarf, but I can’t even imagine that being possible. I hope we’re able to understand what the hell is going on in the long run, in an open and honest way that doesn’t involve a load of mud-slinging.
Well if this is ‘the end’ then we have to be grateful for all the Dave era shows ( yes including even Timewave and Can of Worms) and that the TPL special happened. But we want more!
“It’s depressing and infuriating that the situation has escalated to this point” This is it, in a nutshell. I get the impression that there’s 25+ years of hidden backstory building to this point, none of it particularly cheerful. I really hope the whole thing can be resolved amicably. Either that or this is some insanely good viral marketing for Holly Hop this weekend, and Rob and Doug are pulling a Queeg-style April, May, June, July and August fool on us all. We can but dream.
Given the age of the cast, this couldn’t have come at a worse time. What a pile of shite. BTW when did the forum on the official site shutdown?
Not sure why this is a surprise, the pair of them have been subtly undermining each other for quite a while now. Well, more so at Rob’s end, frankly. ROB ON CAR POOL: “The set designer (for series 1/2) was a bit shit….” ROB ON QUARANTINE: I never worried about the sets. I was of the opinion the stories were what mattered* *Words to that effect. Group hug or (head bang) required perhaps?
Way too soon to start talking about Rob having “killed legit Red Dwarf”. Things are always complicated in business and I’m sure there must be a fascinating tale to tell about how all this came to pass. I’m equally certain that it won’t be as simple as one side being right and the other being wrong… The only way to settle this is for Rob Grant to write five series and two specials. Fact.
I just received a message a short while ago reminding me that Holly Hop event would be commencing shortly, (and of course a chance to experience Rob Grant’s new Red Dwarf material) and I came here to see if there were any articles, etc concerning it. Then I saw this. Well, I did *not* expect that. Like others here, I saw Rob Grant’s increasing activity as a good sign things were being resolved. I even hoped he would perhaps contribute as writer for future scripts, much as I’ve enjoyed Grant Naylor’s solo output. And you know what? It could still all happen. I’m going to try to be positive, and we certainly don’t know the whole story. But yeah, it’s a shock.I didn’t even know Doug Naylor was no longer a GNP director. It likely means new content will take ages to be produced , if it ever is… as if New Red Dwarf content doesn’t take long enough to be produced as is. If that seems overly negative, I’m actually optimistic there will be more content in some form, although whether or not that will be TV related is another thing. I am glad Rob seems to be taking an interest in Red Dwarf. I am also glad Doug does want to continue writing. It shouldn’t be to the detriment of each other though. Hopefully the fact they’re still interested in their property means they’ll find common ground and things are resolved. Let’s see what happens. I’m still looking forward to Holly Hop. And yes, let’s remember we really don’t know the whole (possibly even most) of the story.
No words really.. I had been coming to the conclusion In recent weeks that with the current state of world the likelihood of any more Dwarf seemed slim, with this…I certainly fear that this is a nail in the coffin… Many factors involved or course and interesting to see how he plays out.. But shit. (No words but also plenty of words I guess)
Fucking hell. I just don’t know what to think. God, this is just fucking depressing. I mean, in recent years, it had started becoming clear to me just how bad the break up between Rob and Doug was. That interview a year or two ago where for the first time they both openly said it became “impossible” to work together, it was something of an eye opener for me. Up until then I just assumed it was creative differences, Rob wanting to do something else but they were still friends. This reality of it all is just utterly fucking depressing. As Ian said, it’s never fucking easy being a Red Dwarf fan. I just hope this is something that will not have so bleak an outcome.
Fucking hell. I just don’t know what to think. God, this is just fucking depressing. I mean, in recent years, it had started becoming clear to me just how bad the break up between Rob and Doug was. That interview a year or two ago where for the first time they both openly said it became “impossible” to work together, it was something of an eye opener for me. Up until then I just assumed it was creative differences, Rob wanting to do something else but they were still friends. This reality of it all is just utterly fucking depressing. As Ian said, it’s never fucking easy being a Red Dwarf fan. I just hope this is something that will not have so bleak an outcome. I mean, it’s tricky because I (and I am sure most people here) are desperate to know why they fell out. But… it’s none of our business, sadly ha! But… remember they did get together for the Bodysnatcher Collection – and did seem very amicable.
I would say hearing all your thoughts on a podcast would be good but probably not the time nor the full facts, which may be years away!
I see my request for balanced and considerate comments has been noted by the regulars, but not by people who registered an account just to comment on this story. I am shocked. A further thought occurs – might I also discourage these people from bombarding Doug (or anyone else – cast members etc) from bombarding them with Tweets on the matter? It really wouldn’t be helpful to anyone’s cause, not least our own as Red Dwarf fans.
Such a shame to hear this news. Doug’s removal from the board of GNP does conveniently tie in with when we began having the Lockdown Dwarf commentaries. As the comments above have said let’s hope this can all be resolved amicably. Its such a sad day for Dwarfers regardless
Without getting anyone into trouble what is the relationship between Doug and Paul Jackon nowadays? Paul did the quarantine commentaries with Rob last year but was conspicuous by his absence in the Dave documentaries on Dwarf post TPL.
< This is really sad – despite obvious professional differences, I was always under the impression that Rob and Doug were still friends, albeit distant ones. The existence of the Bodysnatcher DVD is enough to show they were even capable of working together, and Doug’s suggestion that he always reaches out to Rob when he wants to make new Dwarf adds to it. Both being present for the AA ads shows there was clearly an amicable relationship there very recently. When it comes to money friendships sour quickly, especially if Doug is owed 160k. I was recently turfed out of my flat in December by my friend that I’ve been living with for 11 years who then tried to keep the rent money for the second half of the month despite me not living there. I only got it back when I treated legal action (being a furloughed credit controller I was willing to put a bit of time in if need be). So yeah, it won’t take much. And really, this is Doug suing GNP. Whilst the directors are his friends, it’s the company he is going after (albeit for decisions he deems they have made) so it might not be quite as bad in the long run, depends how it all pans out.
One things for sure, there better be a cracking documentary giving blow by blow accounts on this included in the next special/series DVD release. In seriousness though, we can only go on what we know, and at the moment, we all collectively know fuck all. There is so much going on out of the public eye we all have no idea about. So there’s no reason for us to speculate or think that someone is the good guy and the other must be the bad guy etc. Let’s just wait and see what happens and keep out fingers, toes and groinal attachments crossed that this doesn’t spell the end of the show and we get some new RD content sooner rather than later, or not at all.
Like he has no interest in RD for close to 30 years then comes back and suddenly now the future of it is a mess. Unless Doug took a shit in the GNP offices its hard to see how he is the bad guy Well that’s bullshit isn’t it mystery random newbie? I can only speak from my personal experience, but Rob has always been very kind and supportive of the fan club and fandom, especially in recent years. His appearance at last DJ, the live commentary and the Quarantine commentaries were all done with the fans in mind. Going to the Daily Mail (of all places) with this clusterfuck a few days before TORDFC put on a fan event they’ve worked hard in their own time to put together, is not hugely supportive in my opinion and pretty disappointing behaviour, but there we are. (Just a note to say that I haven’t been part of the fan club team since June 2019.)
I think when this kind of stuff goes public it always feels a bit ugly, whatever the rights and wrongs of it all.
Without of course knowing the ins and outs of the dispute, it just seems odd that they would try to continue making Red Dwarf at this point without Doug. Whatever you want to say about the quality of the product he has been putting out since Series 7, Doug IS Red Dwarf at this point. Director, Writer and Producer. It just seems so odd to try and exclude him entirely. It would be like excluding George Lucas………..oh…..
Very well written Ian. That must of been hard. What a gut punch. I guess Paul showed Rob, Timewave then?!! What ever the direction of any future Dwarf content. I thank ALL for what they’ve given us thus far. I hope they all resolve these differences. Guys seriously don’t be UB40. You invented parallel universe’s together, multiple times. It’s currently all the rage in modern pop culture. So Share, dont Smeg it. Your book universe’s already diverged. Just like that writing partnership did long ago. We don’t need a sequel to that ancient split. We want YOU happy. Work through it all. You and the cast are old hands. There is very little time left. For an inclusive future, for the fans, Do what you both do best, write your way out of this.
Very well written Ian. That must of been hard. What a gut punch. I guess Paul showed Rob, Timewave then?!! What ever the direction of any future Dwarf content. I thank ALL for what they’ve given us thus far. I hope they all resolve these differences. Guys seriously don’t be UB40. You invented parallel universe’s together, multiple times. It’s currently all the rage in modern pop culture. So Share, dont Smeg it. Your book universe’s already diverged. Just like that writing partnership did long ago. We don’t need a sequel to that ancient split. We want YOU happy. Work through it all. You and the cast are old hands. There is very little time left. For an inclusive future, for the fans, Do what you both do best, write your way out of this. Parallel universes is the perfect solution here if they both want to make new RD, independently, in future – just as with the 3rd and 4th novels. And if they don’t then that’s up to them. And hopefully we hear nothing more about this unless it’s “don’t worry guys, everything is resolved”.
Going to the Daily Mail (of all places) with this clusterfuck a few days before TORDFC put on a fan event they’ve worked hard in their own time to put together, is not hugely supportive in my opinion and pretty disappointing behaviour, but there we are. (Just a note to say that I haven’t been part of the fan club team since June 2019.) Doug’s wife saying (on Twitter) that no one went to the Daily Mail – it was a matter on public record. I guess this is a perfect example of why we shouldn’t be jumping to conclusions without the facts eh?
In which case, where did the quotes come from? And where was this information publicly available before today?
In which case, where did the quotes come from? Doug may have spoken to the paper without him having actively approached them himself. They may have asked him about it.
Agreed, but that’s not what Linda’s tweet says: https://twitter.com/LindaJGlover/status/1357378405847678978?s=19 I’m even more confused after that, to be honest.
In which case, where did the quotes come from? Doug may have spoken to the paper without him having actively approached them himself. They may have asked him about it. Not sure why Doug speaking to the Daily Mail is the issue here? There’s the slightly large issue of Doug allegedly being removed from his own company, being owed a lot of money and losing the rights to writing any new Red Dwarf. Trimmer Ex makes a valid point that Rob Grant and Paul Jackson have shown very little interest in Red Dwarf for the past few decades give or take the odd interview – so why now? I fear none of us will get any answers here! But it’s making me want to buy a ticket for the Holly Hop!!!
Agreed, but that’s not what Linda’s tweet says: https://twitter.com/LindaJGlover/status/1357378405847678978?s=19 I’m even more confused after that, to be honest. I read that part about no-one speaking to anyone as saying that no one actively took the story to the media. If the part about no-one speaking to anybody is *literally* true and the Daily Mail has made the quotes up, then it calls lots of aspects of this into question. But it doesn’t seem clear that’s the case.
The only thing I can imagine causing this would be Doug himself trying to block Rob from making new Dwarf, but I can’t even imagine that being possible. I could see this being possible in a way. Rob Grant in recent years has shown an enthusiasm for the show that had been missing a long time. and the commentaries and even what he is doing for the Holly Hop event thing. its seems like a sign of someone who is feeling nostalgic for what he created. and since Doug has pretty much been in charge for 20+ years, presumably making all the decisions, if Rob did Decide he wanted more say now… yeah that could create some issue. Sadly either way it just shows these 2 will not sit in the same room and write a script together again. its a shame because they seemed to get on really well together in the Bodysnatcher commentaries and were quite funny bouncing off eachother. Paul Jackson in the Quarantine commentaries didn’t seem like he had na issue with what Doug was doing with Red Dwarf. infact he seemed to like TPL. so who knows.
Oh look, a second new account thinks the first new account makes a good point. Weird! I guess this is a perfect example of why we shouldn’t be jumping to conclusions without the facts eh? The article and quotes exist, the article came out just before Holly Hop. What facts am I missing exactly? Not sure why Doug speaking to the Daily Mail is the issue here? It’s ONE of the issues currently being discussed. If you don’t want to discuss it then feel free to just not.
Oh look, a second new account thinks the first new account makes a good point. Weird! I guess this is a perfect example of why we shouldn’t be jumping to conclusions without the facts eh? The article and quotes exist, the article came out just before Holly Hop. What facts am I missing exactly? Not sure why Doug speaking to the Daily Mail is the issue here? It’s ONE of the issues currently being discussed. If you don’t want to discuss it then feel free to just not. Ok. Was just trying to keep it balanced and be considerate. I meant Mrs Naylor is saying he didn’t speak to the Mail – or confusing words to that effect. But yeah, I admit it, I am team Doug. Go Doug! Whoooop.
I’m really resisting the urge to play internet sleuth and try to find causal links between the status of Red Dwarf and the things the involved parties have said or done in public over the last few years. It’d be like putting a jigsaw together with only a few pieces, and making up the rest with conspiracies. There’s nothing positive to be gained from doing that, especially not with the aim of placing blame. We won’t know until we actually have more concrete information, but in the meantime I would like to push back against the idea that being a Red Dwarf fan is never easy. We get an excellent comedy series which managed to keep coming back 30+ years after it began, we get some of the best home releases of any TV show, we get supplementary shows like Smeg Ups which became noteworthy in their own right, we get multiple expanded and divergent novel adaptations (of a sitcom!), we get some of the finest dedicated fan conventions and events it’s humanly possible to organise, at one point we got a DVD quiz game, and we get an online fan community full of positive, witty, talented people – some of whom can really cook up a mean podcast, I’ll have you know. Being an A Prince Among Men fan is never easy. Being a Red Dwarf fan is a breeze.
I meant Mrs Naylor is saying he didn’t speak to the Mail – or confusing words to that effect. They have quotes, so either they made them up or he did in fact speak to them. *shrug* I do hope I’m wrong and that the timing is a coincidence and that Doug didn’t try to cast a shadow over a fan event with this, because that would be incredibly sad and disappointing. As for everything else he said, I don’t want to comment since we only have one side of a story and it seems sensible from a legal perspective for GNP to not get into a public slanging match over this. Personally I hope that everyone involved takes this all as bit of a wake-up call, that they can put any issues aside to sit down and sort things out… however that ends up looking. Whether that’s realistic is another matter!
Wow. I can’t help but think of the cast here – they want to do more, they love it just like the fans do. Doug has spent at least the last 25 years working on and for Red Dwarf. If this is how it ends … that’s going to be really tough, for them all. (I actually think it would be worse for it to continue but without Doug and the cast – that would just be so hurtful.) Rob clearly loves what they made together, and I too thought the recent interest and involvement was a positive thing. Ouch, all round. And timing, oh terrible timing for everyone. Regardless of whether any single party is more ‘at fault’ than another, right now it must be horrible for everyone all round. Horrible. And the fact it’s come to this implies the last few years must have been quite rough. Man alive, this is just awful. So yeah, nothing coherent to say. No speculation here. Just sympathy, for everyone hurting.
I could see this being possible in a way. Rob Grant in recent years has shown an enthusiasm for the show that had been missing a long time. and the commentaries and even what he is doing for the Holly Hop event thing. its seems like a sign of someone who is feeling nostalgic for what he created. and since Doug has pretty much been in charge for 20+ years, presumably making all the decisions, if Rob did Decide he wanted more say now… yeah that could create some issue. I’m not saying it wouldn’t create issues, just that I can’t imagine Doug would be able to single-handedly block Rob from doing his own Dwarf. Whatever’s going on is going to be a complex issue and I just can’t fathom what the hell it could be that pushed things this far. If it’s true that Doug was sacked then things must have become really, really bad. But as stated above, Paul in particular was very positive about TPL, which just doesn’t tie up. Either way, there’s definitely loads more going on here than we know already and it’s a shame the story had to break in this way, because it clearly does nobody any favours at all.
Still, at least the next Waffle Men is sorted. Just checking the calendar to see what episode that will be for… Ah.
I feel inclined to comment on this, but have nothing to say beyond the fact that I think the whole thing is fucking pathetic.
Didn’t Doug do an interview a few weeks back talking about possible new RD specials and everything was pip and dandy? Certainly, a lot of smeg has happened since, either that or he was just putting out a business as usual response as he didn’t want to go public.
Boy, I haven’t checked G&T for a while. I wonder if there’s some interesting new articles to read and– Aw. Aw, for Christ’s fuck.
Boy, I haven’t checked G&T for a while. I wonder if there’s some interesting new articles to read and– Aw. Aw, for Christ’s fuck. Exactly my experience. Sad news. Utterly baffled as to how things got to this point. Was also going to make a “Rob saw Timewave” joke. Not surprised someone beat me to it. I’m not certain this is the end. Seems weird to get rid of Doug because no one wants to make anymore Dwarf but hey, I know nothing and all sorts of legal mess could make it difficult for either party to proceed with anything new. If this is the end, we’ve been very lucky as fans. If someone told me during those quiet years in the mid-2000s that there would be 3 more full series and 2 specials coming I wouldn’t have believed them. If someone told me that I would get to see an episode of Red Dwarf filmed that would have blown my mind. I ended up seeing 3 filmed. I can’t complain. The show has kept me entertained for probably thousands of hours and that doesn’t even include all the fun I’ve got from G&T over the years.
Oh look, a second new account thinks the first new account makes a good point. Weird! Rumbled. Or do I mean Bungled…?
I feel inclined to comment on this, but have nothing to say beyond the fact that I think the whole thing is fucking pathetic. “Big Finish”? Come on, Rob, I want to see you try!
What a sorry state of affairs. I feel most sorry for the core cast members and production staff, who are going to be put in a very awkward position both personally and professionally. I don’t think I’ll say any more not knowing what’s actually gone on.
I feel inclined to comment on this, but have nothing to say beyond the fact that I think the whole thing is fucking pathetic. “Big Finish”? Come on, Rob, I want to see you try! Having seen The Strangerers I would be inclined to disagree…
What a sorry state of affairs. I feel most sorry for the core cast members and production staff, who are going to be put in a very awkward position both personally and professionally. I don’t think I’ll say any more not knowing what’s actually gone on. Yep. Expect this question to be asked to the cast for the next X years at every convention – regardless of whether it gets sorted!
I feel inclined to comment on this, but have nothing to say beyond the fact that I think the whole thing is fucking pathetic. “Big Finish”? Come on, Rob, I want to see you try! This is certainly an egregious situation.
Well, it was fun while it lasted. I’ll say goodbye to love… No one ever cared if I should live…or die Time and time again the chawnce forrww lrrrve hrrrsss pawwwwrsd mrrrrr bwrrrrr..
Ian’s pretty much summed it up for me in the article. This is such a fucking shame. I hope that common sense prevails and it gets sorted out. But I’ve found, where vast amounts of money are concerned, common sense tends to take a back seat.
Having seen The Strangerers I would be inclined to disagree… And Doug’s non-solo Red Dwarf work has been just amazing right? :P. Then again i don’t think Doug’s Red Dwarf Solo work has been amazing, but each to their own i guess :P
In which case, where did the quotes come from? And where was this information publicly available before today? Presumably the information would be publicly available in a court filing.
To be honest, I’m surprised how chilled out Rob has been about Doug just being Mr Red Dwarf for the last ~25 years. I’m sure he was compensated in some way whenever Red Dwarf got commissioned but it is his child too and he’s probably legally entitled to have a crack too if he wants (if that’s what this is about). Hopefully it can all be resolved in a manner Daily Mail wouldn’t see fit to cover, no shit slinging. Timing is awful obviously, with the fan thing, though to be honest I don’t think any new Red Dwarf was anywhere near being made so I’d be hard pushed to say this has killed it if there’s no more. If there were talks with UKTV they must only have been preliminary – I think it’d be at mid to late 2022 before any new Red Dwarf would be filming, maybe longer, so I think by then Robert’s family might finally have got the “you’re well on your way to 70, stop steaming your head in a silicone bag” message across.
What a sorry state of affairs. I feel most sorry for the core cast members and production staff, who are going to be put in a very awkward position both personally and professionally. I don’t think I’ll say any more not knowing what’s actually gone on. Absolutely. . … so I think by then Robert’s family might finally have got the “you’re well on your way to 70, stop steaming your head in a silicone bag” message across. After the last filming experience I think he is already painfully aware of that. Not that I’m implying the costume and everything *caused* it, but he’s already said it’s uncomfortable and more difficult as he gets older, so it really can’t have helped.
Presumably the information would be publicly available in a court filing. I haven’t been able to find anything – anyone had any joy?
Presumably the information would be publicly available in a court filing. I haven’t been able to find anything – anyone had any joy? I’ve not looked, but I wouldn’t know where to start. Other than maybe you’d have to look in the records of the specific court they were filed in perhaps. I’ve just written out and deleted a whole load of conjecture about certain things in terms of finding it and it made me feel a bit wrong. Like, sure the records should be public but should we expend energy in finding them?
Presumably the information would be publicly available in a court filing. I haven’t been able to find anything – anyone had any joy? I did look, out of curiosity for the facts rather than for any speculation, but no. The last time I found certain lawsuit documents they were linked from a news article – which we can certainly rely on the DM to not do!
I’d imagine that the documents aren’t publicly available online (yet?) and that it’s either something they dug up from a non public internet source or were provided. Certainly agree that at least some of the Doug quotes seem to have come from the claim itself, and that’s what the wording of the article implies. This is all just my speculation though, and a bunch of this thread is complete speculation as well. The fact is that despite the strong emotional connection many of us have with RD, we still only know a small fraction of the stories behind it. Hopefully this issue is resolved in a way that lets things continue.
This is heartbreaking. Not to mention the fact it has utterly killed my enthusiasm for any potential reboot of the series – I can’t imagine having to be the poor sod bringing back Red Dwarf after all this if Doug is ousted. Christ. Wow.
This makes no sense. The show has had a successful run on UKTV since it’s revival. All that talk about more more specials and ‘answering questions’ etc. The cast and crew all wanted to do more… Once again Rob and Doug have fallen out and once again we know nothing about it! Can’t they just make amends and be professional for the sake of the show/fans? Hopefully we’ll get more answers soon but this well and truly sucks!
Given the age of the cast, this couldn’t have come at a worse time. What a pile of shite. BTW when did the forum on the official site shutdown? The forum was removed from the official website shortly after Seb passed but it still exists in some form here, along with many of it’s members…. https://unofficialreddwarfforum.com/
Given the age of the cast, this couldn’t have come at a worse time. What a pile of shite. BTW when did the forum on the official site shutdown? The forum was removed from the official website shortly after Seb passed but it still exists in some form here, along with many of it’s members…. https://unofficialreddwarfforum.com/ Tiny white text on lime green? Oh my! Just to put another thing into the mix, even if GNP do not reinstate Doug, or whatever issues are not sorted, it doesn’t preclude someone (e.g. Baby Cow) seeking a licence to produce Red Dwarf, with Doug as writer etc. Whether he’d want to or not is another issue, but company directors fall out all of the time, and money cures many things.
https://unofficialreddwarfforum.com/ Tiny white text on lime green? Oh my! Just to put another thing into the mix, even if GNP do not reinstate Doug, or whatever issues are not sorted, it doesn’t preclude someone (e.g. Baby Cow) seeking a licence to produce Red Dwarf, with Doug as writer etc. Whether he’d want to or not is another issue, but company directors fall out all of the time, and money cures many things. That’s just how it looks if you haven’t signed in/registered. After that it all looks pretty much the same as before.
Given the age of the cast, this couldn’t have come at a worse time. What a pile of shite. BTW when did the forum on the official site shutdown? The forum was removed from the official website shortly after Seb passed but it still exists in some form here, along with many of it’s members…. https://unofficialreddwarfforum.com/ Tiny white text on lime green? Oh my! Just to put another thing into the mix, even if GNP do not reinstate Doug, or whatever issues are not sorted, it doesn’t preclude someone (e.g. Baby Cow) seeking a licence to produce Red Dwarf, with Doug as writer etc. Whether he’d want to or not is another issue, but company directors fall out all of the time, and money cures many things. True but that would possibly require Baby Cow or Doug paying for said licence (which is a bit harsh considering it’s half his creation) and Doug losing some of the creative control via Paul and Rob? £160,000 for two years work. Think I better start writing a sit-com myself!!! PS join the forum. It ISN’T lime green at all, it’s very much RED!!!
Or wait for the zoos to reopen if you want to witness faeces flinging in a more controlled environment.
£160,000 for two years work. Think I better start writing a sit-com myself!!! …and directing it, and executive producing it, and serving as a company director, all after gaining around 40 years experience in the industry. Also, knock it off with the forum plugs now, eh?
£160,000 for two years work. Think I better start writing a sit-com myself!!! …and directing it, and executive producing it, and serving as a company director, all after gaining around 40 years experience in the industry. Also, knock it off with the forum plugs now, eh? Just wanted people to know it still exists after it suddenly vanished leaving people wondering where it had gone. I agree. Doug has the upper hand when it comes to experience writing and producing for modern TV. Whilst I’ve always favoured Rob as a writer I doubt we will ever see another TV version helmed by him. It’s just strange. Something must have happened for Doug to be removed as director after a successful run with UKTV. I hope it doesn’t become another unaswered question. It’s very sad the show is coming to an end AGAIN for this reason. We’ve seen the show evolve and come back in different ways before. I know the chances are now slim but here’s to hoping we haven’t seen the end.
I can’t imagine having to be the poor sod bringing back Red Dwarf after all this if Doug is ousted. I know this is very much bordering on speculation here, exactly what I didn’t want to do, but based on what little we know I honestly find it very difficult to imagine the cast would want to go on without Doug. TPL is as good a place to end it as any, so it’s not as if they would feel the need to come back to resolve a cliffhanger or anything like that. [And if they were to reboot it or go off in a different direction, that would likely be the fanbase split too – inevitably some will make their own judgements and give their loyalties to one side despite none of us knowing the full picture.] … and back to not speculating.
Just had a mental image of this all playing out on an episode of Judge Rinder. No idea why, it’s Friday night and I’m tired.
I am sad there will never be red dwarf. except for this amature thing over the weekend with the suspiciously all white cast
All very out of the blue and sad. There is obviously more to this story, why it’s happening now etc. Such a pity if it means no more RD
I am sad there will never be red dwarf. except for this amature thing over the weekend with the suspiciously all white cast I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here…
this amature thing over the weekend with the suspiciously all white cast Not to mention the live commentary on the suspiciously all White Hole.
It’s very sad news, and I rather think this is the end of Red Dwarf. Whilst it’s no doubt likely Rob Grant could end up painted as the villain here, I somehow doubt it’s the case. Rob and Doug aren’t the only two involved, and it’s likely an issue between multiple parties involved in the making of the show. Whether this was GNP playing Game of Thrones I’ll leave to the court to decide. Given the increasing timeframe between series, and the fact that it’s coming up to six years since XI and XII were recorded, I’d figured that The Promised Land would likely be the last hurrah anyway. Each new season was a blessing and we were lucky to have them, but it felt like it was always a struggle to get them funded and produced. I’m just glad that even if this is the end, they went out on a highnote and didn’t finish on a cliffhanger ending.
My random thoughts, with absolutely no insider information, are… I would expect that Charles Armitage’s widow’s main concern with the company is financial, and Paul Jackson is (among many other things) a businessman. You would assume that if the company had been making money, that they (and Rob as well probably) would have been happy for things to continue as they were. While some speculate about Rob wanting to be more involved creatively, penning a script for some fans to perform would be a very odd thing to do if that were the case. If anything, this script and the commentaries show that he can be connected to the show without it having any connection to what Doug was doing. And, if he wanted to be really creative again, a novel would be a possibility. Rob ought to have been able to do all of those things, while Doug was bringing money into the company at the same time through new Dwarf and merchandise. And while I understand why some feel it casts a shadow on the show, I’m not sure that necessarily has to be the case. Rob, Paul and Ed have spoken to dozens of cast and crew members while doing the commentaries, some of whom were presumably aware that there were issues, and it has still been a celebration of all things Dwarf. It’s business, and good people are sometimes placed in difficult positions.
I can’t imagine having to be the poor sod bringing back Red Dwarf after all this if Doug is ousted. I know this is very much bordering on speculation here, exactly what I didn’t want to do, but based on what little we know I honestly find it very difficult to imagine the cast would want to go on without Doug. TPL is as good a place to end it as any, so it’s not as if they would feel the need to come back to resolve a cliffhanger or anything like that. [And if they were to reboot it or go off in a different direction, that would likely be the fanbase split too – inevitably some will make their own judgements and give their loyalties to one side despite none of us knowing the full picture.] … and back to not speculating. Well the fanbase is already split really. There’s people who can’t abide new Red Dwarf so to them, this might be seen as a potentially interesting development; and there’s the people that think the floppy disk gag is the greatest moment in the history of Red Dwarf so they’ll take anything with Red Dwarf as the title, even if it was written by Rian Johnson and Alex Kurtsman and they recast Rimmer and Lister with Lisa Riley and Louie Spence. Then there’s the Tumblr people who don’t actually care about what’s on TV, they just like writing slashfic about the characters, then there’s the G&T types, the twitter types, the casuals etc etc
There’s people who can’t abide new Red Dwarf so to them, this might be seen as a potentially interesting development; and there’s the people that think the floppy disk gag is the greatest moment in the history of Red Dwarf so they’ll take anything with Red Dwarf as the title, even if it was written by Rian Johnson and Alex Kurtsman and they recast Rimmer and Lister with Lisa Riley and Louie Spence. Then there’s the Tumblr people who don’t actually care about what’s on TV, they just like writing slashfic about the characters, then there’s the G&T types, the twitter types, the casuals etc etc Please don’t interrupt me sir, I’m only halfway through my list.
Well the fanbase is already split really. There’s people who can’t abide new Red Dwarf so to them, this might be seen as a potentially interesting development; and there’s the people that think the floppy disk gag is the greatest moment in the history of Red Dwarf so they’ll take anything with Red Dwarf as the title, even if it was written by Rian Johnson and Alex Kurtsman and they recast Rimmer and Lister with Lisa Riley and Louie Spence. Then there’s the Tumblr people who don’t actually care about what’s on TV, they just like writing slashfic about the characters, then there’s the G&T types, the twitter types, the casuals etc etc Eh, that’s true. ” … even if it was written by Rian Johnson and Alex Kurtsman and they recast Rimmer and Lister with Lisa Riley and Louie Spence.” Did you *have* to give me nightmares though?!
I am sad there will never be red dwarf. except for this amature thing over the weekend with the suspiciously all white cast I agree, the fact that TORDFC cast even the black characters as white made me raise my eyebrows so high that they shot through the roof and now I don’t know where they are.
I’m pretty sure G and T didn’t rig the draw to choose only white people mate. It was TORDFC, if you please
I think this attempt to generate controversy around the fan casting for the Rob Grant script is getting a bit tedious. It’s clearly been done as fairly blind to race and gender.
I think this attempt to generate controversy around the fan casting for the Rob Grant script is getting a bit tedious. It’s clearly been done as fairly blind to race and gender. Are you trying to say they don’t see colour?
Are you trying to say they don’t see colour? Consider this your final warning. Keep your shit stirring for your own forum, please.
The handful of people who frequent the now unofficial webboard have decided that this is their new thing to bollock on about. They’ve also decided to sign up for new accounts here, despite how much they hate this place and everything to do with it. Feel free to let us know if you’d rather we got rid of them, regulars.
I’ve been allowing new accounts pretty much automatically on good faith as I don’t want any genuine new users to be caught in the cross fire. If your coming over from the TURD forum then you’re genuinely welcome. But deliberately shit stirring or causing trouble by anyone at all will be met with a ban. We’re too old to deal with this shit.
it really is quite sad that the official/now unofficial forum ended up breeding such morons. I used to love hanging out there back in the day. How there is a section of the fandom that hung out on official channels are such miserable, unpleasant people is beyond me. I’m so glad we have G&T and it’s really chill, pleasant environment to hang out with a bunch of genuinely nice people. My view on the new accounts is pretty much as Cappsy said, they’re welcome as long as they’re not arseholes. Which, I can’t see lasting long. In which case it’s up to the mods to decide when the line is crossed and remove I guess.
I’m pretty sure G and T didn’t rig the draw to choose only white people mate. It was TORDFC, if you please It was, I already apologised and corrected myself #ThumbsUp
it really is quite sad that the official/now unofficial forum ended up breeding such morons. I used to love hanging out there back in the day. How there is a section of the fandom that hung out on official channels are such miserable, unpleasant people is beyond me. I’m so glad we have G&T and it’s really chill, pleasant environment to hang out with a bunch of genuinely nice people. My view on the new accounts is pretty much as Cappsy said, they’re welcome as long as they’re not arseholes. Which, I can’t see lasting long. In which case it’s up to the mods to decide when the line is crossed and remove I guess. Need to bring back the TORDFC forum, I used to use that all the time *checks calendar* 16 years ago… SHIT
The handful of people who frequent the now unofficial webboard have decided that this is their new thing to bollock on about. They’ve also decided to sign up for new accounts here, despite how much they hate this place and everything to do with it. Feel free to let us know if you’d rather we got rid of them, regulars. Well, that forum isn’t really a “forum” anymore and hasn’t been for a long long time. It’s dead. It’s really just a 2 person mutual ego stroke with a few semi regular hangers on now. I was there for a long time and heard nothing but bile about this place. Why I didn’t join sooner tbh. Any legit newer members should indeed be accepted but anyone from there is suspect in my eyes. Just my 2 cents.
Need to bring back the TORDFC forum, I used to use that all the time *checks calendar* 16 years ago… SHIT Ah, those were the days. Those forums were a big part of my university years, and also why I don’t have a degree.
The handful of people who frequent the now unofficial webboard have decided that this is their new thing to bollock on about. They’ve also decided to sign up for new accounts here, despite how much they hate this place and everything to do with it. Feel free to let us know if you’d rather we got rid of them, regulars. Well, that forum isn’t really a “forum” anymore and hasn’t been for a long long time. It’s dead. It’s really just a 2 person mutual ego stroke with a few semi regular hangers on now. I was there for a long time and heard nothing but bile about this place. Why I didn’t join sooner tbh. Any legit newer members should indeed be accepted but anyone from there is suspect in my eyes. Just my 2 cents. Wow just a stab in the dark here but I guess you didn’t like the old forum?
The handful of people who frequent the now unofficial webboard have decided that this is their new thing to bollock on about. They’ve also decided to sign up for new accounts here, despite how much they hate this place and everything to do with it. Feel free to let us know if you’d rather we got rid of them, regulars. Well, that forum isn’t really a “forum” anymore and hasn’t been for a long long time. It’s dead. It’s really just a 2 person mutual ego stroke with a few semi regular hangers on now. I was there for a long time and heard nothing but bile about this place. Why I didn’t join sooner tbh. Any legit newer members should indeed be accepted but anyone from there is suspect in my eyes. Just my 2 cents. This seems, how you say, cutting words?
Way too soon to start talking about Rob having “killed legit Red Dwarf”. Things are always complicated in business and I’m sure there must be a fascinating tale to tell about how all this came to pass. I’m equally certain that it won’t be as simple as one side being right and the other being wrong… Is it still too soon?
Well yes, considering that a couple of days after the comment you quoted, it emerged that Rob (and Paul) had signed a legal declaration consenting to Doug continuing to make new Dwarf. The point was, regardless of whether or not the show is dead (and at this stage, if I had to gamble, I’d say it is), we can’t apportion blame without knowing all the facts.
