Did somebody turn over two pages at once?!

[Moonlight]

Mashing Red Dwarf scenes together! Because we were having too much fun doing this in the Better Than Life podcast thread.

Topic

[Flap Jack]

Did somebody turn over a page when the next page didn’t have anything on it yet?!

[Technopeasant]

[Technopeasant]

[Dave]

[Warbodog]

[Dave]

[Technopeasant]

[Technopeasant]

 Just covering my bases…

[Moonlight]

[Ben Saunders]

As soon as I saw “stirring music” I knew what to expect

[Dave]

[Nick R]

At this rate, “Beryl” should overtake “Frank” some time in the next few hundred years.

[gerrydelasel]

This is a strange forum.

[Moonlight]

It’s not always strange. In fact, I distinctly remember last June we tried talking about Series VIII. And we didn’t like it. But then Dave swarmed in with the Smegadrive memes and we just yummed it up.

[Technopeasant]

Oh dear, he’s noticed…

[Nick R]

[Dave]

[Frank Smeghammer]

[Podey]

[Dave]

[Frank Smeghammer]

Fits the rhythm as well Dave. Excellent work

[International Debris]

Honestly I think that might be hall of fame worthy.

[Podey]

[Dave]

[Dave]

[Warbodog]

May have been done.

[Dave]

[Ian Symes]

Interesting that each and every one of those examples of Kryten killing (or attempting to kill) comes from after Lister’s line in The Inquisitor. Like how he learned to lie in Camille (ignoring the denouement of The Last Day) and could do it thereafter, maybe in The Inquisitor he learned that sometimes killing can be the right thing to do. It’s actually consistent with Asimov’s laws, not allowing humans to come to harm through his inaction. 

[Dave]

This makes me wonder: does Low-Kryten actually have the capacity to kill if his regular version is completely unable to? Aren’t the flaws of the Low crew meant to be rooted in the worst aspects of the regular versions?

[Flap Jack]

Being unable to kill isn’t something inherent about Kryten, it’s just something that requires him to break his programming to subvert. Low Kryten just broke his programming to evil ends.

[Dave]

[Dave]

Obvious implication of the above:

[Warbodog]

Holly should have just given Lister a Tamagotchi.

[Dave]

Holly should have just given Lister a Tamagotchi.

[Nick R]

May have been done.

The repetition of “You’re programmed not to kill” reminded me of this compilation: “And I’ve certainly never used it to take a life…”

[Moonlight]

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

[Flap Jack]

[Moonlight]

[Technopeasant]

Not sure firing a tank turret in an AR game counts as killing.

[Podey]

Would Kryten view killing another mechanoid as “killing”? Because the characters in at AR machine are just artificial life, as is he… I think you could make the case that it would be seen as killing, to him at least. 

They’re all just programming… but what programming! 

[Flap Jack]

I’d say that the characters in AR are never implied to be fully sapient in the way that mechanoids, Holly, skutters, vending machines, holograms etc. are, and therefore Kryten would not consider it possible to genuinely hurt or kill them. If they really were sapient, then shutting down the simulation for tea would be murder just as much as blowing them up with a virtual tank.

[Podey]

I’d say that the characters in AR are never implied to be fully sapient in the way that mechanoids, Holly, skutters, vending machines, holograms etc. are

I’m not so sure about that. 
In ‘Stoke Me a Clipper’ it is supposed to be believable that a character could “escape” the AR machine which implies a level of sapience in order to both engineer that escape and be aware that there is even such a thing as “escape”.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

> In ‘Stoke Me a Clipper’ it is supposed to be believable that a character could “escape” the AR machine
Is it supposed to be believable?  Or just enough to trick Rimmer?
It does pose an interesting question though, in a universe where AI exists, at which point is one version of an AI not considered sentient.  Why draw the line at characters in computer games when they have a lot of the same characteristics to Rimmer if you accept the argument posted in TPL that he isn’t anything more than just a computer program and that he doesn’t have his own personality or thoughts or agency (which I don’t).
Loretta (in Gunmen) supposedly has the capacity to understand she’s programmed and part of a game once Lister tells her.

[Flap Jack]

In ‘Stoke Me a Clipper’ it is supposed to be believable that a character
could “escape” the AR machine which implies a level of sapience in
order to both engineer that escape and be aware that there is even such a
thing as “escape”.

The knight’s escape from AR wasn’t deliberately engineered. It was a random malfunction that made it happen, and the knight himself was just blindly following his programming and pursuing the one who wronged him in the story of the game. A sapient being would have reacted to or questioned the fact that he suddenly found himself on a spaceship, but the knight did not.

… or at least I assume that was how Lister imagined that the scenario he concocted would be plausible, and miraculously it was.

Perhaps an AR character might become sapient if it were to become “real” like that, but given it didn’t actually happen and probably couldn’t happen, it’s something of a moot point to me.

It is interesting to think about where the line is between sentient and non-sentient AI in the Red Dwarf universe, but I feel strongly that the AR characters we see aren’t on that line, because the show itself doesn’t treat them like real people, but it does treat holograms and mechanoids like real people.

[Podey]

> In ‘Stoke Me a Clipper’ it is supposed to be believable that a character could “escape” the AR machine
Is it supposed to be believable?  Or just enough to trick Rimmer? 

I meant in terms of it being believable to the crew in that was how Rimmer died, as opposed to getting Rimmer to engage with the premise which, yeah, would require less credibility alone. But presumably there must be precedent for that to happen or at least for it to be possible for Kryten to accept it?

(it has also just occurred to me that there must have been a conversation between VII and BtE where Lister admitted they faked Rimmer’s death, if that is the original Rimmer…)

[Podey]

In ‘Stoke Me a Clipper’ it is supposed to be believable that a character
could “escape” the AR machine which implies a level of sapience in
order to both engineer that escape and be aware that there is even such a
thing as “escape”.

The knight’s escape from AR wasn’t deliberately engineered. It was a random malfunction that made it happen, and the knight himself was just blindly following his programming and pursuing the one who wronged him in the story of the game. A sapient being would have reacted to or questioned the fact that he suddenly found himself on a spaceship, but the knight did not.
… or at least I assume that was how Lister imagined that the scenario he concocted would be plausible, and miraculously it was.
Perhaps an AR character might become sapient if it were to become “real” like that, but given it didn’t actually happen and probably couldn’t happen, it’s something of a moot point to me.
It is interesting to think about where the line is between sentient and non-sentient AI in the Red Dwarf universe, but I feel strongly that the AR characters we see aren’t on that line, because the show itself doesn’t treat them like real people, but it does treat holograms and mechanoids like real people.

To be fair we have seen holograms and mechanoids in a helluva lot more episodes than AR characters so there’s potential for more fleshing out, there.

But what about Loretta saying “I’m programmed to be trash” in Gunmen…? Does that not imply self-awareness in the same way that Kryten would refer to his programming before being encouraged to break it? Could the same not happen with Loretta?

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I meant in terms of it being believable to the crew in that was how Rimmer died, as opposed to getting Rimmer to engage with the premise which, yeah, would require less credibility alone. But presumably there must be precedent for that to happen or at least for it to be possible for Kryten to accept it?

I’m pretty sure there’s a conversation off screen within the episode, it’s the only way to explain how Kryten and Cat just accept it. I think they’re in on it to help Rimmer become the Ace he is destined to be.

[Podey]

That’s an interesting theory and not one I’d considered. 

[Frank Smeghammer]

I think the knight escaping from the AR machine would have made an interesting “monster of the week” episode in itself. I know it doesn’t make a lot of scientific sense but all the characters Lister has abused in AR for his own amusement escaping and seeking revenge.

Perhaps it was a seed of an idea Doug had that he couldn’t make work so twisted it around into a minor plot point in Stoke me a Clipper

[Author]

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