Russell Two Davies

[Nick R]

Apparently, today there was some news about a change to Doctor Who’s production staff, in some obscure behind-the-scenes role. I don’t know if anyone else heard about it?

Topic

[Flap Jack]

One detail is that this makes the decision to pretend that the 60th Anniversary Specials were the start of a whole new version of the show even more ridiculous. The gap between The Reality War and whatever comes next is now guaranteed to be much longer than the gap between The Power of The Doctor and The Star Beast (and almost definitely it’ll be the first gap since The TV Movie/Rose to span multiple full years, making the hiatus longer than the whole Disney era itself), and it has a good chance of having less direct continuity too, yet the latter transition was the one they tried to sell as a full reboot??

Can’t wait to open iPlayer and see “Doctor Who (1963-1996)”, “Doctor Who (2005-2022)”, “Doctor Who (2023-2025)” and “Doctor Who”.

I mean, legitimately too, because that’ll mean new episodes have happened.

[Rushy]

I once tried watching the first episode of The Walking Dead and it was very slow. I couldn’t get past halfway through it and I was shocked it wasn’t nearly finished. Is it better paced than Walking Dead? 

There’s no comparison. LOST starts explosively and introduces its entire main cast within the first few minutes. 

[Rushy]

That being said, I do have a big soft spot for the Walking Dead in spite of its many, many issues. To the point where I’ve spent the better part of a year editing a five-season version together. 

[Professor Flibble]

I’ve been so caught up in Doctor Who being gone for the foreseeable future I only just considered the Christmas special being cancelled, I’m not gonna have new Doctor Who to finish off my Christmas day this year. I’m genuinely upset about that.

[Dax101]

The 2 factors that seem to be affecting the bringing back of once-popular shows these days are Money and the desperate need for a younger generation to want to watch them, because, I guess, time has declined the previous.

[Ben Saunders]

I’m wanting generally to get into more Star Wars media

There’s been a lot of crap Star Wars recently (the Obi-Wan show a particular nadir), but it at least has the benefit of like, if you don’t like the mainline films you might like one of the shows. And if you don’t like one of the shows you might like one of the other shows. But with Doctor Who it’s just Doctor Who. And some audios. And books I guess. But there aren’t multiple incarnations of televisual Doctor Who. So it’s harder to completely kill Star Wars by ballsing up one of the projects.

[Rushy]

I’m wanting generally to get into more Star Wars media

There’s been a lot of crap Star Wars recently (the Obi-Wan show a particular nadir), but it at least has the benefit of like, if you don’t like the mainline films you might like one of the shows. And if you don’t like one of the shows you might like one of the other shows. But with Doctor Who it’s just Doctor Who. And some audios. And books I guess. But there aren’t multiple incarnations of televisual Doctor Who. So it’s harder to completely kill Star Wars by ballsing up one of the projects.

Also, Star Wars has a core story that is complete and cannot be damaged in any way. 

[Ben Saunders]

(after DS9 finished and I got disillusioned by Voyager and didn’t bother with Enterprise)

This is exactly what happened to me. Watched all of TOS, loved it, watched all of TNG, loved it, watched DS9, holy shit, best Trek yet. Started Voyager……….. struggled to keep my eyes open. DS9 hit such dizzying heights that early Voyager felt like watching paint grow. The clips and one episode I’ve seen of Enterprise do like quite good actually, but after like 450 episodes of Star Trek I was ready for something else.

[Renegade Rob]

If you’re looking to get into more Star Wars, I highly recommend the Thrawn Trilogy books (or corresponding audiobooks of them). Some of my favorite Star Wars full stop. 

[Rushy]

Unpopular opinion, but Thrawn does nothing for me. His entire character is just “I’m not Palpatine, I’m a serious villain for serious people!” 

[Me Own Stunts]

of course when I said kneeling Death in the bollocks just now I did actually mean kneeing him in the bollocks, just in case you were prepping to lose any sleep over that, cheers

[Doomitron]

[Warbodog]

watched DS9, Started Voyager

I guess most people will go about it like this (if they’re being comprehensive), but it’d be better to watch them interspersed as broadcast, since Voyager directly followed TNG (which had run out of steam in its final season already) and its situationally-inappropriate liteness can work as a contrast to DS9. Teenage me didn’t see Voyager’s flaws until it became the sole show in season 6.

[Professor Flibble]

Yeah I’m more interested in watching The Clone Wars, Rebels, Mandalorian, stuff like that. Andor too, apparently. I’m not passionate enough about Star Wars to the level I’ll read its tie-in books. Ask me again later, though idk

[Jonathan Capps]

The lying about the scripts is absolutely horrendous. Honestly, that group of people have done amazing things for the show in the past, but Who fans are better off rid at this point. 

[Jonathan Capps]

Also, The Expanse is great, please watch The Expanse thank you.

[Flap Jack]

I love how even with today’s news, the Classic Doctor Who thread is still mostly focused on RTD2 Doctor Who, while this thread has pivoted to being about Star Wars and Lost.

[Doomitron]

The lying about the scripts is absolutely horrendous. Honestly, that group of people have done amazing things for the show in the past, but Who fans are better off rid at this point. 

What the hell was he talking about here?

[Jonathan Capps]

The lying about the scripts is absolutely horrendous. Honestly, that group of people have done amazing things for the show in the past, but Who fans are better off rid at this point. 

I should also say that there’s a world where a well done low budget version of Who could be spectacular. I know it’s not sci-fi (and it probably also still has a large budget) but A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms is significantly cheaper and smaller scale than the dragon shows and it uses that reduces scale to its advantage brilliantly. 
Get all that empty bombast the fuck out of Who and start from the bottom.

[Jonathan Capps]

What the hell was he talking about here?

Yeah, this shows the absolute madness of it. Selling snake oil.

[Doomitron]

“Next December, I’ll be here to trumpet and toot about the 2026 Christmas Special. It contains these three words. ‘Sweet,’ ‘Fuck’ and ‘All.'”

[Professor Flibble]

The lying about the scripts is absolutely horrendous. Honestly, that group of people have done amazing things for the show in the past, but Who fans are better off rid at this point. 

I knew Russell hyped his writing up to ridiculous degrees (73 Yards being the best thing he’d ever written, pfft) but this just takes the piss. And reflects poorly on the BBC.

[Jonathan Capps]

I love how even with today’s news, the Classic Doctor Who thread is still mostly focused on RTD2 Doctor Who, while this thread has pivoted to being about Star Wars and Lost.

I’ve still not figured out if the last season entirely ruins Lost for me or not. It was once hands down my favourite drama (and second favourite show) of all time, but I’ve not had the stomach to re-watch since it finished. I might give it another 20 years.

[Ben Saunders]

it’d be better to watch them interspersed as broadcast

This was my original plan, but it would have required a modicum of effort so I ended up not doing it

[Ben Saunders]

The lying about the scripts is absolutely horrendous

He may possibly be lying about not having written a script, Murray Gold said just recently that there were multiple scripts/stories on the go depending on circumstances/availability and some people think RTD feels scorned and is lying now, but wasn’t previously. Maybe we’ll find out eventually and maybe we won’t

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I love how even with today’s news, the Classic Doctor Who thread is still mostly focused on RTD2 Doctor Who, while this thread has pivoted to being about Star Wars and Lost.

I’ve still not figured out if the last season entirely ruins Lost for me or not. It was once hands down my favourite drama (and second favourite show) of all time, but I’ve not had the stomach to re-watch since it finished. I might give it another 20 years.

I’ve rewatched it plenty since it ended and it’s only recently started to lose its appeal in the latter series. Series 5 is where it really drops off for me. It’s like they’re just keeping the wheels spinning trying to make up time until they can get to the end. But even then it’s not a huge downer. 

All the mysteries and questions and interconnectedness and stuff, you always see something you didn’t see before, or appreciate a character or a moment or a line in a way you didn’t before. 

It’s definitely worth a go through again I think. 

Theres a series on YouTube by a British guy called Lost Explained that has revived an interest for me to watch it again, and I only did it about 18months ago. But he goes DEEP and really unpicks everything. It’s great. 

[Flap Jack]

The lying about the scripts is absolutely horrendous. Honestly,
that group of people have done amazing things for the show in the past,
but Who fans are better off rid at this point. 

If you’ve read The Writer’s Tale, then you know this is kind of just how Russell The Davies is. In public he bigs up what a wonderful new railway he’s built, then it gets to opening day 6 months later and he’s like

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrmZIgVoQw4&t=90s

I’m sure at the time he had every intention of writing a Christmas special that included those words, and I guess he didn’t consider the dubious present tense of “contains” a lie because they were contained in whatever vague outline or pitch he did have written, but his marketing strategy does depend on things not going totally tits up like this.

[Rushy]

Season 5 of LOST probably bothered me the most, because it’s the only one that has a finale I cannot abide (I won’t spoil, but aside from the lead protagonist, no one has any legitimate reason to go along with what’s being done).

Also, it was reaching the point where the strange and mysterious events felt more convenient than strange and mysterious. 

Season 6 has quite a bit of the baggage of season 5, but I’ve always felt it was an effective course correction and that in terms of pure character drama, the show ends on a very powerful note. The actual story is a bit of a shaggy-dog, but the themes carry it through. It is very climactic and satisfying, and ultimately ties up the show well enough for my tastes. 

[Warbodog]

I’m sure at the time he had every intention of writing a Christmas special that included those words, and I guess he didn’t consider the dubious present tense of “contains” a lie because they were contained in whatever vague outline or pitch he did have written, but his marketing strategy does depend on things not going totally tits up like this.

This reminded me of something he himself said on the Screenwipe Writers’ Special (over the closing credits from 48:05). 

[Warbodog]

Also, The Expanse is great, please watch The Expanse thank you.

Yeah, and Battlestar Galactica, but the Prof wanted cheering up, not grim stuff!

[Professor Flibble]

Also, The Expanse is great, please watch The Expanse thank you.

Yeah, and Battlestar Galactica, but the Prof wanted cheering up, not grim stuff!

I regret not checking out the reboot when it was on BBC iPlayer.

[Doomitron]

The lying about the scripts is absolutely horrendous

He may possibly be lying about not having written a script, Murray Gold said just recently that there were multiple scripts/stories on the go depending on circumstances/availability and some people think RTD feels scorned and is lying now, but wasn’t previously. Maybe we’ll find out eventually and maybe we won’t

Alternatively RTD could’ve merely completed an outline or a rough draft which he might not consider a “proper” script, and Murray Gold was just speaking broadly since he’s a composer and probably isn’t privy to the difference. That or RTD has lost it and is a compulsive liar, which not ruling out either.

[cwickham]

Gold never actually said he’d seen a script. He said he “thought” there were a couple of different “versions”, so presumably story outlines at most.

Best I can tell from all available information out there: the original announcement of the Christmas special was made before everyone had all their ducks in a row to demonstrate the BBC were still committed to the show and combat negative press. There was some legitimate attempt to make it happen but there was always (at best) a significant amount of doubt about whether or not it would, and in the end there was never even a budget agreed.

[Doomitron]

Either way we can agree ending the show on the Doctor regenerating into Billie Piper was a twat move however you slice it.

[Dave]

I should also say that there’s a world where a well done low budget version of Who could be spectacular. I know it’s not sci-fi (and it probably also still has a large budget) but A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms is significantly cheaper and smaller scale than the dragon shows and it uses that reduces scale to its advantage brilliantly. 
Get all that empty bombast the fuck out of Who and start from the bottom.

This is a really good example, because Knight of the Seven Kingdoms has shown how you can easily leave the baggage of a franchise behind if you focus on getting the core building blocks right – story, character, good writing and performances. Doctor Who doesn’t have to be a huge continuity-rich universe-ending story if it can grab you with the basics, which the show has increasingly failed to do in recent years. A back-to-fundamentals approach is what the show really needs.

[cwickham]

Either way we can agree ending the show on the Doctor regenerating into Billie Piper was a twat move however you slice it.

To play devil’s advocate: It’s possible someone wanted it to be made clear that Ncuti had left the show and a more ambiguous ending didn’t suffice for that.

[Professor Flibble]

If the regeneration had to be shown in full, you know who they should’ve called in?

Richard E. Grant.

[tombow]

When and if the series comes back there’s zero chance of it picking up from where The Reality War left off. I don’t think it matters either way.

they’ll be a new Doctor with no mention of how long he’s been around. Then a comic showing how he regenerated from Rose. Then a special flashback that contradicts the comic.

[Doomitron]

Possibly, but I don’t think RTD had anyone, be it at the BBC or Disney, giving him demands or attempting to reign him in like that during his second tenure so it was most likely his doing if I were to hazard a guess.

[Professor Flibble]

If the regeneration had to be shown in full, you know who they should’ve called in?
Richard E. Grant.

[Unrumble]

Yeah I’m more interested in watching The Clone Wars, Rebels Mandalorian, stuff like that. Andor too, apparently. 

Mandalorian is good fun (and the new film too, if you just treat it like a super sized episode), but I cannot emphasise enough what a masterpiece Andor is, best Star Wars thing outside of IV and V. 

[Flap Jack]

To play devil’s advocate: It’s possible someone wanted it to be made clear that Ncuti had left the show and a more ambiguous ending didn’t suffice for that.

Annoying if so, because a press release could have done that job. But I guess it wouldn’t have done the extra job of creating a false impression that Ncuti’s departure was planned in advance and that Davies knew what was going to come next.

In fairness though, Gatwa changing outfit every story made it difficult to do the unplanned exit the traditional way – putting the new Doctor in the old Doctor’s outfit and filming them falling off an exercise bike.

[Renegade Rob]

Rule One: The Davies lies. (He mentions in the Writers’ Tale that as a publicly funded entity, the BBC is technically not allowed to lie. So it could be an interesting project to see which tidbits were released just by RTD’s side and which were actually released officially by the BBC.)

[Technopeasant]

Since the BBC won’t make Doctor Who they should be giving Big Finish a license to actually visualize their work if they want to imo. This looks amazing as an example.

I mean, they can tender for it I suppose. Perhaps with the backing of the Duke of Manchester.

[Technopeasant]

 it’s really not some dull castaway survival thing. Don’t want to give too many spoilers but basic survival on the island becomes the least of their concerns pretty soon.

As I’ve said before, I might prefer if it was.

[Technopeasant]

I guess most people will go about it like this (if they’re being comprehensive), but it’d be better to watch them interspersed as broadcast, since Voyager directly followed TNG (which had run out of steam in its final season already) and its situationally-inappropriate liteness can work as a contrast to DS9. Teenage me didn’t see Voyager’s flaws until it became the sole show in season 6.

That’s what I am planning on doing. About to start The Next Generation after having finished The Animated Series.

Is this the first time neither Doctor Who or Star Trek were in production for television? Or have I missed something?

[Warbodog]

with Doctor Who it’s just Doctor Who. And some audios. And books I guess.

It’s always seemed odd that they don’t release more novels outside of the current-Doctor batches (whatever’ll happen to that… looks like there’s a Fugitive Doctor one upcoming). All Doctors are Past Doctor Adventures now, they should bring that back so everyone can get a favourite Doctor fix now and then.

I read all of the Eleventh Doctor ones a couple of years ago, which were mostly pretty good as an additional, imaginary season. (Faves: Touched by an Angel & Borrowed Time. Runners-up: Night of the Humans & Paradox Lost).

[Ben Saunders]

All Doctors are Past Doctor Adventures now

More true than ever now that we don’t have a current Doctor.

I remember reading The Stone Rose and The Monsters Inside many moons ago (in like 2007). I remember enjoying them but I was 12.

[Jenuall]

[Rushy]

The problem is that “somehow Tennant returned” has historically proven to be more like Dr Who than anything since Capaldi, possibly even Smith. 

I can’t exactly be mad when a better performer with bettter writing turns up. 

[Author]

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