Russell Two Davies

[Nick R]

Apparently, today there was some news about a change to Doctor Who’s production staff, in some obscure behind-the-scenes role. I don’t know if anyone else heard about it?

Topic

[Professor Flibble]

We haven’t had Doctor Who for a very long time. And I think this statement does other TV shows disservice.

Oh Doctor Who’s been in a very bad place recently, but it’s still Doctor Who. And as for all those big successful TV shows at the moment, Stranger Things, The Boys, all that shite. Shows that look truly awful. I want to do them a disservice. Lots of people like them and I’m a petty, jealous little fucker with a massive grudge. When your show isn’t getting the same kind of love and attention either behind the scenes or from the public, you start to feel resentful.

What do we want from Doctor Who? Wondrous adventures in time and space, monsters, parables, fascinating alien characters. All this can be found in other shows as well.

See, I’m wanting generally to get into more Star Wars media. I’m still insanely jealous of people who have it as their first big special interest, but it still holds a place in my heart. Most science fiction is very militaristic, particularly Star Trek, which also isn’t nearly goofy enough and more often than not, takes itself far too seriously. Deep Space Nine was the best one. And a lot of science fiction I see now is the kind of shit that looks very dry and bland. Pretty much anything made by Apple TV. 

So, I guess I’ll be giving the 2008 Clone Wars series a go.

[Professor Flibble]

Since the BBC won’t make Doctor Who they should be giving Big Finish a license to actually visualize their work if they want to imo. This looks amazing as an example.

Yeah, it looks incredible. I genuinely want whole series of this sort of thing. 

[Rushy]

With respect, why do you insist on picking between such mediocrity, and not classics like Blake’s 7, The Prisoner, Twin Peaks, Lost in Space (1960s version), Farscape, LOST?

Unless you’ve seen them all, I suppose. 

From the sounds of it, the Stargate series is also much closer to your tastes than Star Trek. Yes, there’s a military aspect to it, but it transitions into lighthearted fare pretty quickly and is basically a comedy by the end. 

[Warbodog]

Star Trek, which also isn’t nearly goofy enough and more often than not, takes itself far too seriously. Deep Space Nine was the best one.

It joined Deep Space Nine as my favourite non-Red Dwarf sci-fi when I got into it, very fun show.

[Rushy]

Lost in Space in particular is intensely funny, and most of the show is just the characters larking about. 

[Warbodog]

the Stargate series is also much closer to your tastes than Star Trek. Yes, there’s a military aspect to it, but it transitions into lighthearted fare pretty quickly and is basically a comedy by the end. 

This is why I avoided SG-1 for a few years, but when I was convinced to try it, I found it a good Star Trek replacement (after DS9 finished and I got disillusioned by Voyager and didn’t bother with Enterprise). It’s not up there for me any more, but entertained me a lot catching up on boxsets in about 2002!

[Warbodog]

classics like Blake’s 7, The Prisoner, Twin Peaks, Lost in Space (1960s version), Farscape, LOST?

Mandatory millennial addition of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which is a lot better than its name suggests. (RIP Anthony Head).

[Professor Flibble]

With respect, why do you insist on picking between such mediocrity, and not classics like Blake’s 7, The Prisoner, Twin Peaks, Lost in Space (1960s version), Farscape, LOST?
Unless you’ve seen them all, I suppose. 

Watched all of Blake’s 7 years ago, the rest I’ve always planned to give a go at some point and I might like but I think the point I’m trying to make is that there’s not really anything current. With those shows, while they’ll be totally new things for me, they’ve all ended years ago.

Oh and Lost I’ve never planned to watch past Season 1 anyway.

From the sounds of it, the Stargate series is also much closer to your tastes than Star Trek. Yes, there’s a military aspect to it, but it transitions into lighthearted fare pretty quickly and is basically a comedy by the end. 

Oh I’ve seen Stargate SG1, it’s great fun, but I’ve seen a large chunk of it already so I can’t really count it as a new thing. In fact, they’ve just cancelled the new one.

And it was easier to get into these things additionally to Doctor Who. Without Doctor Who, I do just feel a sense of emptiness. I mean, I’m autistic and it’s my special interest.

[Rushy]

Oh and Lost I’ve never planned to watch past Season 1 anyway.

I don’t understand this at all. 

[Professor Flibble]

Mandatory millennial addition of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which is a lot better than its name suggests. (RIP Anthony Head).

I’ve seen most of that too, it’s a show I’ve always enjoyed, it’s well-written, got great characters and actors) but I don’t think I’d personally put it in my list of favourites necessarily.

(Was shocked to hear about Anthony Head the other day, massive shame, Giles was my favourite character)

[Rushy]

I think the point I’m trying to make is that there’s not really anything current. With those shows, while they’ll be totally new things for me, they’ve all ended years ago. 

Why does that matter? 

[Professor Flibble]

Oh and Lost I’ve never planned to watch past Season 1 anyway.
I don’t understand this at all. 

Isn’t the general sentiment that past the first season, it turns into utter nonsense?

[Rushy]

and didn’t bother with Enterprise

Absolutely brimming over with wrongability

I love Enterprise. I love how unique it is. I love that they live inside a crappy submarine version of the Enterprise, I love that there’s no Prime Directive and no Federation.  

[Professor Flibble]

I think the point I’m trying to make is that there’s not really anything current. With those shows, while they’ll be totally new things for me, they’ve all ended years ago. 
Why does that matter? 

Because I’ll run out. Again, the general point is how do I “replace” Doctor Who as a current thing when its gone? 

[Rushy]

Isn’t the general sentiment that past the first season, it turns into utter nonsense?

No, not even among the people who hated the ending. Seasons 1-4 are pretty universally adored, with 4×05 being widely regarded as the best episode. 

[Professor Flibble]

and didn’t bother with Enterprise
Absolutely brimming over with wrongability
I love Enterprise. I love how unique it is. I love that they live inside a crappy submarine version of the Enterprise, I love that there’s no Prime Directive and no Federation.  

Enterprise is underrated. Its finale was appalling though, and still the single worst episode I’ve seen in that franchise.

I mean I enjoy a good chunk of the pre-2017 Star Trek stuff, not just DS9. 

[Flap Jack]

I understand the desire for something new and fresh, but I don’t agree with the implication that the show has been conscious in its picking white writers/producers only.

There is no implication to disagree with – I literally used the word “unconscious” .

Talent, talent, talent is what’s important. Whoever comes around and has the magic should get the chance. Fan, non-fan, white, black, it doesn’t matter. Nothing should come before talent. 

And nothing would come before talent. The fact is that for a role like this there’s always a person of colour or woman (or both at once) who is equally as talented as the best white man option. The reason why the white man still gets picked most or all of the time is because of the unconscious racism and sexism. (Incidentally, seeing a talent selection system that selects a white person every single time and concluding “I assume this was done fairly and without bias”? Kind of racist! Whether unconsciously or consciously.) That’s why it requires a conscious effort to counteract the unconscious bias.

Thankfully you don’t need to believe me that unconscious racism and sexism are real or agree with me that positive discrimination is good. I just hope the BBC higher ups are forward thinking on this.

[Rushy]

Because I’ll run out. 

You already ran out of Dr Who yonks ago. What’s it been, 21 episodes since 2023?

Just the fact that there may be future episodes isn’t in my opinion a substitute for a guaranteed 60 episodes of a great classic show, which you can then follow up with another 60 episodes of another classic show, and so forth and so forth. There’s enough great telly to satiate someone for the rest of their life. 

[Professor Flibble]

You have to understand, I’m in an extremely bad mood right now so I’m going to say things that aren’t entirely rational or reasonable about things that aren’t Doctor Who out of pettiness. Because I don’t know how to cope with it not existing. Even when its got its shit moments (or shit eras) I still greatly value its existence. I mean I’m obsessed with it. All of my favourite things in sci-fi and generally just media in its entirety, it’s all Doctor Who. 

[Rushy]

You have to understand, I’m in an extremely bad mood right now so I’m going to say things that aren’t entirely rational or reasonable about things that aren’t Doctor Who out of pettiness. 

I know that, I’m just a pedantic quibbler trying to sell you other television shows I like. 

[Rushy]

In any case, mourning Doctor Who is a little premature, considering that the BBC are still trying to push Dr Who related content and hoping to sell it to other investors. It’s not exactly the same situation as Doug Dwarf at the moment. Doctor Who is a big brand name, they’ll sort it out. 

[Doomitron]

I’m mainly not too upset about it because a) Doctor Who’s writing has gotten so bad its honestly better for it be dead then continue on embarrassing itself and b) some of my favorite Doctor Who stories comes from the Wilderness era, the Eighth Doctor is my second favorite Doctor and all his stuff is concentrated to books and Big Finish so I don’t even really see it as the end of Doctor Who for it to not be on TV anymore

[Professor Flibble]

I know that, I’m just a pedantic quibbler trying to sell you other television shows I like. 

I’m happy about Mystery Science Theatre 3000, they’re bringing that back with Mike Nelson. Practical effects and models and everything. That’s something I’m looking forward to.

[Professor Flibble]

I’m mainly not too upset about it because a) Doctor Who’s writing has gotten so bad its honestly better for it be dead then continue on embarrassing itself and b) some of my favorite Doctor Who stories comes from the Wilderness era, the Eighth Doctor is my second favorite Doctor and all his stuff is concentrated to books and Big Finish so I don’t even really see it as the end of Doctor Who for it to not be on TV anymore

See I think I’m unusual in that the Eighth Doctor is in my top five purely based off the TV Movie. That’s the Eighth Doctor in my mind and I’ve only occasionally dabbled with some of his Big Finish.

Eh, I’ll give it another go. I tried binging the main range from the start and I don’t think that was a good idea. Want to give the Evelyn and Hex stories a go in order. I wish there were webcasts for at least most of the stories, like Real Time. Even if they didn’t move, it’d give me something to look at. Theres Josh Snares’ Genocide Machine animation to watch, that’s something.

[Professor Flibble]

In any case, mourning Doctor Who is a little premature, considering that the BBC are still trying to push Dr Who related content and hoping to sell it to other investors. It’s not exactly the same situation as Doug Dwarf at the moment. Doctor Who is a big brand name, they’ll sort it out. 

I’m usually very optimistic. But my optimism for the show’s been dealt with a crushing blow a fair few times now, and this one thing, the one thing we thought we knew was happening, isn’t even a thing. I would love to be eagerly excited for Doctor Who’s future but if that’s going to take years, I just can’t.

[Flap Jack]

One thing that shines through all of this is that I genuinely believe the BBC are committed to keeping the show going. This is not like the 1980s where they were just embarrassed by it and actively trying to kill it – the landscape has totally changed. The industry is extremely risk averse now (which is bad, to be clear) and so BBC absolutely want to keep supporting an IP like Doctor Who which has a strong and international core fanbase.

What kind of Doctor Who we’ll get, how many episodes, how high a budget etc., who the fuck knows, but we will get it.

[Professor Flibble]

The thing is, I’ve heard “Lindsay Salt says Doctor Who is going nowhere” too many times now. I can’t get my hopes up when even if they strike a deal, it could be, and in fact almost certainly will be years until they get production started again. It’s been over an entire year already without any Doctor Who.

And the long wait has only just started.

[Warbodog]

What’s it been, 21 episodes since 2023?

If this was supposed to sound paltry, there’s another show that only managed 21 episodes and a special in the last 27 years.

[Rushy]

I once made a Youtube channel dedicated to Blake’s 7, and uploaded many of the best audio drama clips there with accompanying photographs to make it seem like a Loose Canon reconstruction

https://www.youtube.com/@blakes7clips934

[Professor Flibble]

If people could do anything visual for the entire Big Finish back catalogue, or prioritise the main range idk, “Loose Cannon recons,” webcasts like Real Time, Death Comes to Time or Shada, full animations if they can, even uploaded without sound or something, I’d be immensely grateful. 

[Flap Jack]

The thing is, I’ve heard “Lindsay Salt says Doctor Who is going nowhere” too many times now. I can’t get my hopes up when even if they strike a deal, it could be, and in fact almost certainly will be years until they get production started again. It’s been over an entire year already without any Doctor Who.

Lindsay WHAT.

Anyway, the promises of new Doctor Who aren’t a lie unless it actually does go away for good. Even if you’re pessimistic, we’re not quite at that stage yet.

But yeah, we’ll need to brace ourselves for a long wait.

I have personally prepared for this moment by being really bad at filling in my Classic Who gaps, and only having a human amount of time and money for Big Finish.

[Professor Flibble]

You know what’s really fucking annoying? If they didn’t announce this Christmas special, they could’ve made a start on shopping the show out in October. Would we have got anywhere by now, I don’t know. But all that Christmas special announcement did is actually hold the future of the show back and build my hopes up.

Doctor Who shouldn’t require too much time to work things out other than finances and logistics. We all know exactly what the show itself needs to do when, if it comes back. The kind of stories it needs to be telling, the tone it needs, it needs to put the monsters front and centre again. This special that doesn’t exist just means we have to wait even fucking longer to get a good version of the show again and it pisses me the fuck off.

[Rushy]

Does this mean.. ?

[Professor Flibble]

I’m gonna fry them with my hex vision.

[Renegade Rob]

The news is disappointing but not surprising. The show needs a bit of a rest to work itself out (not unlike the Fourteenth Doctor). I’m not as down on the Chibnall Era as some people (it’s not misunderstood genius or anything but I found it largely inoffensive despite numerous missed opportunities), but it was around then that the show should’ve done a break like this earlier on. The 60th specials were pretty great but once 15’s era started with hit-or-miss overproduced episodes with 8-episode seasons, it started to be like… okay, I think it’s time to step back and take a breath and really think things through. I don’t mind waiting a bit (unless Carole Ann Ford passes away in the meantime in which case I’ll be very cross indeed). Sometimes the most creatively sound thing you can do for an ongoing creative enterprise is to pause. I keep thinking back to that Abed quote in the Community finale where he says that TV is meant to be comfort, it defeats its own purpose when it keeps existing just to keep existing. Doctor Who needs to be effortless weekly comfort again. 

[Professor Flibble]

While I get the reasoning behind a break, I genuinely don’t think it should be that hard to figure out what the show needs in a narrative and marketing sense. All it needs is new writers to tell good stories with scary monsters that don’t rely on excessive continuity, and any time should be spent figuring out how to fund it. If they’re trying to figure out anything else to do with it narratively, they’d just be continuing the same problems.

[Unrumble]

Watched all of Blake’s 7 years ago, the rest I’ve always planned to give a go at some point and I might like but I think the point I’m trying to make is that there’s not really anything current. With those shows, while they’ll be totally new things for me, they’ve all ended years ago.
Oh and Lost I’ve never planned to watch past Season 1 anyway. 

As Rushy’s pointed out, you seem to be bizarrely straitjacketing yourself from investigating acclaimed shows for very arbitrary-seeming reasons (e.g. not being ‘current’) and judging them as crap, sight unseen.

I get that your reactions are borne out of extreme disappointment, and you’ve admitted as such, but there’s a wealth of material out there, waiting to be given a chance.

The Lost thing is really leaning into stubbornness and specific received wisdom. What if you reached the end of season 1 and absolutely loved it? Would you refuse to carry on, out of some twisted principle?

Enterprise is a good example. I ignored it at the time because I ‘heard’ it was rubbish. Decided to watch it a couple of years ago, and really enjoyed it (that finale aside). 

Everything is subjective at the end of the day, I’ve only stuck with Doctor Who out of a sense of loyalty to my childhood self for years now, just hoping it will do something other than leave me feeling flat, apart from the odd episode.

[Renegade Rob]

Hopefully the hiatus isn’t too long, but if this is the end of this “modern” run of Doctor Who, it’s interesting to think of the parallels between Modern Who and Classic Who:

– Both had 7 numbered doctors (1-7 vs. 9-15). 

– Both had their final Doctor have bonkers adventures with Mel and the Rani.

– The classic run was about 27 years and the modern run has been about 21 years on-and-off. Maybe in 8 years we’ll get another TV movie and then 8 years after that another 20+ year run of a new era. 

RTD isn’t perfect and has his flaws as a writer and showrunner but as time has passed I started to gain a new appreciation for him and his creative vision. That said, I’m reminded of that moment in The Writers Tale where he meets with Michael Grade who cancelled the classic series and who wondered if Russell was one of those nerds back in the day who sent him letters to complain about cancelling it and Russell replied, “No, you were right to cancel it. It was shit.”

[Professor Flibble]

As Rushy’s pointed out, you seem to be bizarrely straitjacketing yourself from investigating acclaimed shows for very arbitrary-seeming reasons (e.g. not being ‘current’) and judging them as crap, sight unseen.

I think there’s been a bit of a misunderstanding here, what I meant was while I will try those shows (and probably enjoy them, knowing my taste in TV shows), because they ended, that means they’re a finite quantity, so it’ll be something to keep me occupied but I couldn’t consider them an active substitute for Doctor Who in the specific sense of it being off the air for the foreseeable future. Cause they’re off the air too. I said they’re not “current” meaning, nothing is currently happening with them. Shows that I’ve specifically named though like Stranger Things or The Boys, the trending shows, the ones that go viral, I do have an admittedly petty grudge against because they’re far more successful with people my age than Doctor Who’s been in absolutely ages. I’m a miserable old bastard. 

I get that your reactions are borne out of extreme disappointment, and you’ve admitted as such, but there’s a wealth of material out there, waiting to be given a chance.
The Lost thing is really leaning into stubbornness and specific received wisdom. What if you reached the end of season 1 and absolutely loved it? Would you refuse to carry on, out of some twisted principle?

Tbf with Lost, I’m not quite sure it’d be my cup of tea in the first place so I think “Oh I’ll probably just watch the first season” is me not pressuring myself to watch the whole thing because the whole show being set exclusively on a desert island is something I always thought would seem a bit dull…idk, I’ll try it. I mean I didn’t think Breaking Bad would be my cup of tea at all and I ended up watching it all in a month.

Enterprise is a good example. I ignored it at the time because I ‘heard’ it was rubbish. Decided to watch it a couple of years ago, and really enjoyed it (that finale aside). 
Everything is subjective at the end of the day, I’ve only stuck with Doctor Who out of a sense of loyalty to my childhood self for years now, just hoping it will do something other than leave me feeling flat, apart from the odd episode.

Well that’s it, I think I’m slagging other things off out of a sense of jealousy really. Other people can give or take Doctor Who’s continued existence because there’s so much else they enjoy in the same way, but I don’t enjoy other things in the same way. 

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

It’s a coincidence that Warbo should mention Stargate several posts back now. 

It’s revival (headed by previous writer and later producer Martin Gero) has just been cancelled by Amazon (a week ago) despite a series having been written and casting having been started for filming in London in autumn because it might have only appealed to fans. They bought MGM in part for the Stargate IP because it’s fairly sizeable and has a huge fan base. Now they’re sacking off the works that’s been done over the last 2 years. 

With Star Trek having had a 10 year revival run of multiple shows, and now ended, and a huge gap left by Doctor Who, now is prime time to fire up a loved franchise as there’s an audience searching for good sci-fi story telling 

[Professor Flibble]

Oh yeah I heard about that, while I very specifically like Stargate SG1, and about Seasons 1-8 of that, I’m not sure if the new show would’ve been, a continuation of SG1 or anything considering the cast are getting on. But it still absolutely sucked to hear that, because there’s not been any Stargate in years.

[Warbodog]

Enterprise is a good example. I ignored it at the time because I ‘heard’ it was rubbish. Decided to watch it a couple of years ago, and really enjoyed it (that finale aside).

I eventually watched the last two Enterprise seasons that people variably rate, but they didn’t do anything for me. I could rewatch early Voyager purely for 90s nostalgia, don’t know if I’d stick out the rest when that faded. I don’t even like the original series that much, just a lotta love for the films + TNG + DS9, which is plenty already!

[Rushy]

because the whole show being set exclusively on a desert island is something I always thought would seem a bit dull…

It’s not exclusively set on a desert island, not even in season 1. And the stuff that is set there is made in Hawaii, on film, about as cinematically as you can get. 

I’m not sure if the new show would’ve been, a continuation of SG1 or anything considering the cast are getting on. 

Stargate had multiple inter-connected shows just like Star Trek did in the Berman era. It most likely would’ve been a new main cast and setting, with occasional references and guest stars from days gone bye. 

Well that’s it, I think I’m slagging other things off out of a sense of jealousy really. 

It’s very endearing. Don’t feel bad!

[Professor Flibble]

It’s not exclusively set on a desert island, not even in season 1. And the stuff that is set there is made in Hawaii, on film, about as cinematically as you can get.

Yeah, I’ll give it a go. Usually there’s a funny character I’m drawn to, and I’ve heard Hugo is supposed to be good for that. I once tried watching the first episode of The Walking Dead and it was very slow. I couldn’t get past halfway through it and I was shocked it wasn’t nearly finished. Is it better paced than Walking Dead?

Stargate had multiple inter-connected shows just like Star Trek did in the Berman era. It most likely would’ve been a new main cast and setting, with occasional references and guest stars from days gone bye. 

Yeah, Stargate to me is Daniel Jackson, Jack O’Neil, Sam Carter and Teal’c, and General Hammond too. So the idea of Stargate without them never really appealed to me, tbh.

It’s very endearing. Don’t feel bad!

Thank you, yeah I don’t want people to think I’m an arsehole, I tend to overreact sometimes. 

[Professor Flibble]

Can they just edit Billie Piper out of The Reality War now? I mean keep the broadcast version avaliable, obviously, but for all intents and purposes, going forward, that never, ever happened.

[Warbodog]

Can they just edit Billie Piper out of The Reality War now?

Just wait for the 120th anniversary The Reality War in Colour.

[tombow]

 with Lost, I’m not quite sure it’d be my cup of tea in the first place so I think “Oh I’ll probably just watch the first season” is me not pressuring myself to watch the whole thing because the whole show being set exclusively on a desert island is something I always thought would seem a bit dull

to add to Rushy, it’s a weird sci fi set on a desert island with experimental time travel bases and alternate universe portals, it’s really not some dull castaway survival thing. Don’t want to give too many spoilers but basic survival on the island becomes the least of their concerns pretty soon.

[cwickham]

When and if the series comes back there’s zero chance of it picking up from where The Reality War left off. I don’t think it matters either way.

[Me Own Stunts]

Well I’m personally delighted that the image of Billie Piper kneeling Death in the bollocks is now the final moment hanging over Doctor Who for the foreseeable future.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Oh yeah I heard about that, while I very specifically like Stargate SG1, and about Seasons 1-8 of that, I’m not sure if the new show would’ve been, a continuation of SG1 or anything considering the cast are getting on. But it still absolutely sucked to hear that, because there’s not been any Stargate in years.

It wouldn’t be a continuation of the universe but not with any of the original cast.

[Author]

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