Russell Two Davies

[Nick R]

Apparently, today there was some news about a change to Doctor Who’s production staff, in some obscure behind-the-scenes role. I don’t know if anyone else heard about it?

Topic

[Rushy]

Something that really stuck out for me with The Devil’s Chord, at the time, was the incredibly ham-fisted contrivance Davies came up with to make a nineteen year old girl from 2020s London a Beatles fan. It felt like a pure, dated pop culture reference from a middle aged boomer.

?

Lots of young people like old stuff. Where’s the contrivance? I know a nineteen year old obsessed with Laurel and Hardy. 

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

And these days there are young kids a fan of music from throughout the ages because they have direct access to it through streaming.

[Dave]

Anecdotally I know quite a few teenagers who are into the Beatles, especially with recent stuff like the Get Back documentary spotlighting them again. Paul McCartney also seems to be everywhere again lately even as he’s getting quite old and frail. (Let’s just take the goldfish meme as a given on this one.)

[Nick R]

Something that really stuck out for me with The Devil’s Chord, at the time, was the incredibly ham-fisted contrivance Davies came up with to make a nineteen year old girl from 2020s London a Beatles fan. It felt like a pure, dated pop culture reference from a middle aged boomer.

The first Eleventh Doctor adventure game began with a trip to 1963 and Amy asking to meet John Lennon (but not Ringo):

https://youtu.be/nKFieaO1H8w

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I was going to say I couldn’t give a shit about Lennon but I’d love to meet the drummer who wrote this 

https://youtu.be/dFnscG6RGmU?is=OM-HkbnJdVoMY4zN

but in looking it up, turns out he didn’t even write it! Yet he still accepted it as a song worth recording and releasing 

[Ben Saunders]

nineteen year old girl from 2020s London a Beatles fan

There are young Beatles fans, naturally, but I’ve no idea how “normal” it is to be one. It’s not the most unrealistic prospect in the world, though. I am a massive Beatles fan and I’m 31. But I was helped by The Beatles Rock Band (2009).

[Ian Symes]

Does anyone on this forum like any of Doctor Who at all?

[Ben Saunders]

the Get Back documentary spotlighting them again

Oh yeah this was big, surprisingly so. I have a friend who was always quite disparaging of the Beatles who talked to me about it and now seems to like them a bit more.

[Ben Saunders]

Does anyone on this forum like any of Doctor Who at all?

Most of it, actually. Any Sensorite fans in chat?

[Warbodog]

Rory from off of the Ponds loved old Laurel & Hardy(-esque) films. Characters are allowed to have individual taste.

[Flap Jack]

Does anyone on this forum like any of Doctor Who at all?

Of course I don’t like any of Doctor Who. I’m a Doctor Who fan.

When Professor Flibble said they weren’t keen on most New Who finales, at first I misread it as them saying they weren’t keen on most episodes, period. I was a little disappointed to realise my mistake, because “emotionally devastated they’ll have to wait years for new Doctor Who, actively dislikes most of Doctor Who” is pretty much the perfect Whovian.

I think nerds like us fall into the trap of it being way easier to explain negatives than positives, and expressing anger feels better than expressing praise. Last Human vindicated???

For my money the Gatwa era was good overall (and so was the Whittaker era for that matter, I don’t care what you say), it was just dragged down by the series arcs/finales and the lack of believable episode-to-episode character growth. Boom is an all time great episode of Doctor Who as far as I’m concerned, but even that is slightly marred by Moffat having to include reminders of Ruby’s maternity mystery and her magical snow summoning powers.

Then again, Heaven Sent is also marred by being the prologue to Hell Bent, and people basically never mention or care about that when they bring up what an amazing episode it is, so maybe that sort of thing really doesn’t matter.

[Warbodog]

You get that with a lot of things. Some great standalone horror & comedy episodes in season 4 of Buffy that you can put on in isolation, only to be reminded in one scene “oh yeah, this is the season with the shit villain.”

[Dave]

For my money the Gatwa era was good overall (and so was the Whittaker era for that matter, I don’t care what you say), it was just dragged down by the series arcs/finales and the lack of believable episode-to-episode character growth. Boom is an all time great episode of Doctor Who as far as I’m concerned, but even that is slightly marred by Moffat having to include reminders of Ruby’s maternity mystery and her magical snow summoning powers.

Then again, Heaven Sent is also marred by being the prologue to Hell Bent, and people basically never mention or care about that when they bring up what an amazing episode it is, so maybe that sort of thing really doesn’t matter.

The nice thing about the position we’re in now is that thanks to the show’s longevity, even though it’s always been uneven we now have countless high-quality episodes to enjoy. That allows us to curate our rewatches and stick to just the stuff we know we’re going to love.

My daughter and I still watch loads of episodes from the RTD1 and Moffat eras but we ignore the duff ones and just watch the ones we want to, creating little personally-tailored runs – whether that’s “episodes featuring guest appearances from League Of Gentlemen actors” or “River Song arc episodes” or whatever. I tend to remember the good stuff while the mediocre episodes fade from my memory.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I did that recently on a last rewatch. Skipped over the stuff that was naff or I didn’t care about 

its interesting how its starts out with watching just 3 or 4 episodes of series 1, and as time goes on watching more and more. 

Series 4 and 5 get a lot of attention. As does 6 and 7 in some regards. Early Capaldi dips a little (I don’t care for Clara teaching The Doctor how to Doctor or the  Danny Pink stuff) but by 10 it’s back to nearly a full series of episodes being watched 

[Dave]

Yeah I think there’s a period from around 3-7 where the show was at its best. I also enjoyed the Capaldi era but it’s spotty and doesn’t really ever become consistently great until Heaven Sent and shortly afterwards the arrival of Bill.

[Doomitron]

Does anyone on this forum like any of Doctor Who at all?

I hate Doctor Who but not as much as I hate Red Dwarf. Don’t get me started on that show.

[Warbodog]

I’ve never watched the whole thing in order, every couple of years I have “I am rewatching all of Smith/Eccleston/McCoy/TBD,” but mostly just watching abridged Smith again again.

[Rushy]

I saw the whole thing exactly once, when I was a child. For some reason, I pushed myself through the recons and everything.

[Professor Flibble]

I’m watching through Classic Who in order with my mate from uni (who before he met me had never seen a single episode of Doctor Who). He’s enjoying the recons, he’s on Daleks’ Master Plan Episode 9 and his favourite story so far is The Web Planet.

[Nick R]

Of course I don’t like any of Doctor Who. I’m a Doctor Who fan.

Footage of two Doctor Who fans having a discussion: 

[Professor Flibble]

There aren’t any Classic stories I outright dislike, because it’s generally quite consistent with its goals. The New Series I still love for the most part, and even the series I don’t like still have a good episode or two in them. But it’s more prone for stories like a finale where a prophecy says it’s the Doctor’s darkest hour, the world ends and he has to hit the magic reset button. Or a budget story where James Corden’s love as a parent saves the day or something.

[Podey]

I’ve now finished Tip Toe. 

Last episode was just as tough and affecting to watch as I expected, however I thought it was let down a bit by how unrealistic the banter between the straight mob members seemed. Are blokey “football hooligan” blokes really pretending to hump the most effeminate member at every opportunity and instantly live-streaming it? I mean, I don’t hang out in those groups so I could be wrong but they felt like cartoon characters.

The ending monologue about how acceptance is being rolled back with every moving of the goalposts and every removal of a flag hit home here, though, in a town where our Reform-controlled council have just ordered the take-down of all Pride displays, of all reference to Pride on social media and the cancellation of all associated events.

[Dave]

I’ve now finished Tip Toe. 
Last episode was just as tough and affecting to watch as I expected, however I thought it was let down a bit by how unrealistic the banter between the straight mob members seemed. Are blokey “football hooligan” blokes really pretending to hump the most effeminate member at every opportunity and instantly live-streaming it? I mean, I don’t hang out in those groups so I could be wrong but they felt like cartoon characters.
The ending monologue about how acceptance is being rolled back with every moving of the goalposts and every removal of a flag hit home here, though, in a town where our Reform-controlled council have just ordered the take-down of all Pride displays, of all reference to Pride on social media and the cancellation of all associated events.

I thought the show got worse as it went along sadly. After a strong start in the opening couple of episodes that set the stage for quite a thoughtful and complex drama, I thought it leant more heavily into clichés and stereotypes as it went on, relied on highly contrived plotting to get the pieces into place for the final episode, and the extreme denouement that had been teased since the beginning of the series felt completely forced and implausible in the end. With a different build-up it could have worked, but the show didn’t really feel like it earned that ending. 

Cumming and Morrissey were both pretty good but I didn’t feel the writing made the most of the potential of the setup. Ironically for a show that seemed to want to be as representative as possible, I felt like it ended up quite limited and simplistic and didn’t really explore the range of viewpoints that it could have.

[Podey]

Yeah, I would agree with that. 

I must admit I found Morrisey a little unconvincing at times but it might be because I know too much of his other work… I find it much easier to suspend disbelief if all the actors are new to me!

[Dave]

I think the most charitable way to view it is as a call to arms and cautionary tale, a sort of “this could be where things are headed if we’re not careful”. It sort of works on that level I suppose, but I think in that case it might have been better to set it in an imagined near-future rather than a purportedly realistic present day.

[Ben Saunders]

Cumming and Morrissey

Good way to spend a Sunday afternoon

[Rushy]

I must admit I found Morrisey a little unconvincing at times but it might be because I know too much of his other work…

I’m impressed that the Walking Dead has resisted bringing him back, given that they’re nostalgia whores and Morrissey has virtually begged for it

[Technopeasant]

 Most of it, actually. Any Sensorite fans in chat?

Here.

[Professor Flibble]

I like The Sensorites. 

[Technopeasant]

The nice thing about the position we’re in now is that thanks to the show’s longevity, even though it’s always been uneven we now have countless high-quality episodes to enjoy. That allows us to curate our rewatches and stick to just the stuff we know we’re going to love.

I’ve mentioned before but I genuinely can’t understand picking and choosing like that. Even bad episodes can be fun to take the piss out of, and I’m a compulsive completionist, but then again I don’t watch Nu Who at all so what do I know?

[Doomitron]

I will omit episodes I think are shit from my Plex just because. There’s not a super whole lot granted, at least from the first 10 series, mostly from series 6 and in-between Asylum (Clara is in it so of course I’m saving it) and Manhattan.

[Rushy]

I’m not a Sensorites fan, but I appreciate that my mother still quotes “the City Administrator” and “the family group” as quintessential British sci-fi writing 

[Warbodog]

I genuinely can’t understand picking and choosing like that.

Growing up in the VHS / terrestrial TV age. I never had complete TV series, I’d just buy random volumes when I saw them cheap and had money or when they looked especially good and worth buying full price. Then watch them at random, the good ones more often. I eventually had about 25% of the Star Treks after collecting for a few years, hardly any Red Dwarf until the DVDs.

[Ben Saunders]

I love the Sensorites, I love the spooky ship stuff in episode one, the cliffhanger, the attempt to do a real fleshed out alien race where they aren’t all just evil all the way in season one. I love the highly detailed masks and just throwing a grey skinsuit over the rest of them, I love their feet. I love the awkwardly faded in and out slightly quiet music. I love  the man with the hwhite hair.

[Professor Flibble]

So Series 16 was gonna be a big Dalek return.

For fuck’s sake.

[Doomitron]

Where did you hear that?

[Professor Flibble]

Barnaby Edwards said it at Utopia. 

Why Russell planned beyond the two series he actually had guaranteed I’ll never understand. 

So we’ll never get a Ncuti Dalek story, essentially.

[Doomitron]

Him and McGann should form a support group.

[Professor Flibble]

I keep forgetting War Between exists.

Five episodes that could’ve wrapped up the whole era and given Ncuti a Dalek story. 

[Frank Lewis]

Does anyone on this forum like any of Doctor Who at all?

I do; mostly Classic Series, with various Virgin & BBC Novels, 90s’ AOL Sims, & Big Finish thrown in

[Technopeasant]

Him and McGann should form a support group.

McGann did meet the Daleks. They execute the Master for him. How nice of them.

EDIT: I suppose he was still Sylvester then. Doubley nice given he blew Skaro up.

[tombow]

 I’ve mentioned before but I genuinely can’t understand picking and choosing like that. Even bad episodes can be fun to take the piss out of, and I’m a compulsive completionist, but then again I don’t watch Nu Who at all so what do I know?

I remember when I bought Season 3 of Battlestar Galactica (2000s series), I asked on the BSG imdb page if they could list me the essential episodes so I could just watch those without the standalone fillers, and some of them raged at me (“you wouldn’t skip chapters of a novel!” – even though I would do that, ha ha). One person did make me a list but advised I watched it all, but maybe skip the silly boxing episode (which of course recalled Dwarf and McGruder). I think I did eventually just watch the season.

[Warbodog]

Yeah, even in the DVD era I had to be selective about which parts of shows I could afford, so I collected season 3 of Farscape first (multiple sets) while following different periods of the show intermittently when I visited a Sky-owning friend’s house a couple of times a week and downloading episodes interminably slowly on pre-broadband KaZaA. I still thoroughly enjoyed it.

[Professor Flibble]

I am now far more optimistic about Doctor Who’s future and I’m quite embarrassed about how I reacted to the news on here this week. I acted like a prick and said some very resentful things about the Doctor Who fanbase, none of which I meant. Again, I was just bitter.

[Renegade Rob]

I am now far more optimistic about Doctor Who’s future and I’m quite embarrassed about how I reacted to the news on here this week. I acted like a prick and said some very resentful things about the Doctor Who fanbase, none of which I meant. Again, I was just bitter.

[Technopeasant]

If she matches William Russell we have 13 years left, so let’s just wish her luck.

[Professor Flibble]

– The BBC will publicly release the tender document this year with all the details of what they want from each pitch, premise, episode number etc.
– There will be a definite closing date on which they must announce the winning bidder. 
– There has never been a single BBC show that hasn’t continued smoothly after being put out to tender, most BBC shows go through this process and there has never been a case of no companies wanting to pick up a show.
– The BBC put shows out to tender with the intent to find a sustainable way to produce each show long-term, meaning that multiple series are locked in, rather than people being left on tenterhooks every other year wondering if it’ll be renewed.
– The BBC narrow it down to four bidders and then ask them more detailed questions in order to determine the winner.
– It’s usually BBC Studios that wins, and there’s a very good chance Doctor Who will go back to being produced by BBC Studios.
– The BBC genuinely are committed to securing Doctor Who’s future, it’s not just PR word waffle. To be fair, what else can you say other than “Doctor Who’s going nowhere” when you’re being stopped from taking it anywhere?
– The Christmas special had to be cancelled because the show technically being in production actively stopped the BBC from putting the show out to tender. They legally can’t put shows out to tender if they’re currently in production. If the Christmas special went ahead, they were going to put it out to tender in 2028. Additionally, it depended on what Russell would’ve done with it, and it would be less risky for bidders if the show was just left as it is right now.
– The tender process doesn’t seem to take all that long, it was half a year for the Cbeebies series, I think Casualty was put to tender last year and recently started production again? 


So, honestly the people saying “the show won’t be back for 5 years,” I think that’s just doomerism without any evidence to prove it. I could be totally wrong but with all this information, I genuinely don’t know why the show couldn’t just come back in late 2028. 2029 at the latest. But if the show’s being produced internally again, then yeah I think it’d probably be back in 2028. 

Half a year, maybe a bit more to find a company, then a whole year and a half to get production started.

[Dave]

To be fair, what else can you say other than “Doctor Who’s going nowhere”

I like that there are two completely contrasting interpretations of this statement. 

[Professor Flibble]

I like that there are two completely contrasting interpretations of this statement. 

As frustrating as it was to keep hearing it, in retrospect, it was technically the only thing they could’ve said. 

I’m not sure why they agreed to announce a Christmas special when it’d interfere with securing the show’s future. 

[Professor Flibble]

I think May 2025 – October 2028 is a gap of time just long enough for people to miss the show, the previous era to fade from the public consciousness and a brand new era to have enough distance, without the gap being torturously long to the point of being a second Wilderness Years. 

My ideal scenario is we get 10 episodes annually, broadcast on Saturdays in Autumn-Winter. The BBC publishing the document is exciting enough news on its own because it’ll be a public declaration of what exactly they want to do with the show. 

[Author]

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