The Classic Doctor Who Thread (1963 to 1989/1996)

[By Jove its holmes]

Fact of the Day: Tom Baker was the first DW series lead who wasn’t a veteran of the Second World War. He had the mercy of a late birth.

Topic

[International Debris]

Yeah, much like the ‘80s, the show had a great anniversary special where it reached a commercial peak, and then the numbers started dropping dramatically. 

Sadly we’re yet to have another Andrew Cartmel, someone who respects the show but isn’t an actual fan, who can view it as an outsider and make changes to make it something fresh and new. Obviously without the budget and promotional restraints that Cartmel’s era had. 

[Technopeasant]

[Ben Saunders]

I liked Series 5 and even Series 6, Series 7 was a bit spotty then I thought Capaldi was excellent outside of a couple clunkers. Never understood the utterly incessant “good doctor bad writing” comments you’d see about him, at that point I just started to accept that maybe people are dumb or something (because obviously if consensus doesn’t agree with my opinion, it’s because I’m cleverer than your average geezer)

Anyway, Classic Who… I think the McCoy era is overrated by fans and it’s a bit of a saving grace that the Cartmel Master Plan was forcibly axed when it was, because anything more than just the hints and teases we actually got would have ended up in some bullshit Timeless Child situation where you’re unnecessarily complicating lore that nobody actually cares about. Making the Doctor into anything other than just some bloke who ran away ruins the very fundamentals of the show. Having some “ooh, but what if…” vague mystery is fine, though.

[International Debris]

Yeah, the Cartmel Masterplan was never going to be revealed on screen. It was always just going to just be there to add some mystery to the character, and it’s very much needed at the time. I know there was talk of an internal document but I don’t know how true that even is, as there are major contradictions: Remembrance of the Daleks and Lungbarrow totally contradict each other.

[Dave]

Anyway, Classic Who… I think the McCoy era is overrated by fans and it’s a bit of a saving grace that the Cartmel Master Plan was forcibly axed when it was, because anything more than just the hints and teases we actually got would have ended up in some bullshit Timeless Child situation where you’re unnecessarily complicating lore that nobody actually cares about. Making the Doctor into anything other than just some bloke who ran away ruins the very fundamentals of the show. Having some “ooh, but what if…” vague mystery is fine, though.

McCoy was the first Doctor I watched contemporaneously, and as a kid I was pretty unaware of all this and just enjoyed the individual stories.

I haven’t rewatched much of that era but revisited Remembrance of the Daleks a couple of years back and it held up pretty well and was always my favourite of his stories. I enjoyed Battlefield and The Happiness Patrol at the time too.

[Flap Jack]

In other news, the 5th and 6th Doctor’s eras are now complete on Blu-ray with the release of the Season 21 Collection (disappointingly though they didn’t ditch the crap AI upscaling for it).

I’ve actually never seen Warriors of the Deep before, so I’m tempted to make the new special edition my first experience of it.

[Ian Symes]

I often wonder how the last two series would be perceived if it wasn’t for the two godawful finales. I think they’re pretty damn solid on the whole. The worst ones aren’t as bad as the worst of the Chibnall era, and while the best ones may not hit the heights of RTD1 and Moff, they’re decent in their own right. The run from Boom to Rogue is extremely strong. But the first thing you think of when you look back on the first series is the stupid dog thing with the same name as a classic series villain, and for the second series it’s the stupid ogre thing with the first name as a classic series villain. Part of the problem of course is that with a shorter series, it’s easier for the whole thing to be overshadowed. With only eight episodes, a two-part finale is 25% of the run.

[Unrumble]

[Dave]

I often wonder how the last two series would be perceived if it wasn’t for the two godawful finales. I think they’re pretty damn solid on the whole. The worst ones aren’t as bad as the worst of the Chibnall era, and while the best ones may not hit the heights of RTD1 and Moff, they’re decent in their own right. The run from Boom to Rogue is extremely strong. But the first thing you think of when you look back on the first series is the stupid dog thing with the same name as a classic series villain, and for the second series it’s the stupid ogre thing with the first name as a classic series villain. Part of the problem of course is that with a shorter series, it’s easier for the whole thing to be overshadowed. With only eight episodes, a two-part finale is 25% of the run.

It’s definitely a big part of it. And with the way the arcs usually work, there’s usually setup in episode 1 as well as the finale in 7 and 8, so three out of five of your annual episodes are arc episodes. Meaning when the arcs are received poorly, the whole thing really suffers.

I like some of the individual Gatwa episodes – Boom and Dot & Bubble were decent, The Devil’s Chord was a fun romp and Lux is visually inventive, and his Christmas specials were both fun enough – but as an era I feel like the bad stuff was so disappointing that it overshadows the good in my memory. Whereas other mixed runs have higher highs that outweigh shallower lows.

[Unrumble]

I like some of the individual Gatwa episodes – Boom and Dot & Bubble were decent, The Devil’s Chord was a fun romp and Lux is visually inventive, and his Christmas specials were both fun enough – but as an era I feel like the bad stuff was so disappointing that it overshadows the good in my memory. Whereas other mixed runs have higher highs that outweigh shallower lows.

From memory, Boom was decent in execution, as was The Well, despite some of the supporting characters being a bit annoying. I also enjoyed 73 Yards for the atmosphere and dread it created, even if it ultimately made little sense at the end.

[Flap Jack]

Sorry Technopeasant, I tried to bring the topic back to Classic Who but I wasn’t strong enough.

[Dave]

Sorry Technopeasant, I tried to bring the topic back to Classic Who but I wasn’t strong enough.

Hopefully the site mods will have a word with this “Ian Symes” so he doesn’t step out of line again.

Seriously though I think it’s inevitable when discussing Doctor Who that different eras, classic and modern, will be talked about. It’d be like having separate Red Dwarf discussion boards for the bubble era and anything after that.

[Rushy]

 Never understood the utterly incessant “good doctor bad writing” comments you’d see about him

He has some of the worst episodes of any Doctor. Kill the Moon, In the Forest of the Night, Death in Heaven, Hell Bent, Pyramid at the End of the World are all strong contenders for bottom 20 for the entire series. 

Also, I don’t think his acting style suited Moffat’s fast-paced sitcommy style of writing. 

[Ben Saunders]

Hell Bent

[Ben Saunders]

I often wonder how the last two series would be perceived if it wasn’t for the two godawful finales.

Not quite as dismally (a very large portion of the vitriol is directed at The Reality War specifically), but there would still be problems with lack of strong characterisation (which RTD1 excelled at) and the questionable morality of The Interstellar Song Contest. And we can’t blame Disney for all the bullshit surrounding Ruby’s mystery (psyche, not a mystery, she just makes it snow for no reason) since apparently that was the plan all along. The superficial criticism I hear the most is “Gatwa didn’t have a consistent outfit” which some people cannot stand for whatever reason. 

[Renegade Rob]

Each of those two series are basically half-length, so I imagine in retrospect they will collectively be looked back upon like Series 1, a mixed bag with some really good eps and some really bad eps, and a Doctor who was good but only got less than 20 episodes and we’ll always wonder what could’ve been had he stayed longer. (I actually really like Series 1 except for the farting aliens, and Eccleston is easily my favorite Doctor, so it’s not a perfect comparison, but there are some parallels there. And as we speak I’m starting to mentally merge Series 14 and 15 in my head into a single vague contiguous blob.)

[Technopeasant]

Sorry Technopeasant, I tried to bring the topic back to Classic Who but I wasn’t strong enough.

I appreciate the attempt nonetheless.

Seriously though I think it’s inevitable when discussing Doctor Who
that different eras, classic and modern, will be talked about. It’d be
like having separate Red Dwarf discussion boards for the bubble era and
anything after that.

The difference is that Red Dwarf has always retained the same format (although VII and BTE do bend it). I genuinely agree with Nicholas Courtney’s observation that something was lost with the revival adopting an episodic rather than serial format.

If I wanted to watch a one hour self contained sci-fi show I’d watch Star Trek instead. I watch Doctor Who for the long form storytelling (even if I admit that the six or more parters do tend to drag in the middle). Even beyond anything else I did not like from the many times I have tried to watch Nu Who (admittedly having never seen any Whittaker or Gatwa episodes yet), that alone makes it NOT the same show to me.

The ironic thing is that I do still follow the production tribulations of the modern show, and the rough state of the overall canon, as I do for modern Star Trek, without watching any of it (I might watch Strange New Worlds eventually, but I have not yet gotten through TOS in my weekly re-watch so it’ll be awhile…) Just for the sake of the legacy and institution. So yes, I do read the Russel Two Davies thread for that reason.

I think the McCoy era is overrated by fans

McCoy is my favorite Doctor overall and I still agree with this statement. Especially because of all the people who see Season 26 in particular as the template for RTD 1. Watching Cartmel’s interview on the Bluray also soured me on him, despite learning that he actually grew up in Western Canada from it (another Canadian contribution to Who!), because he only ever puts down the Who made by others.

Meanwhile, Davison’s first season, despite being my least favorite classic Doctor (for reasons even he acknowledges), was actually really good. His second did not live up to it however, and I will see how I feel about his third soon enough. Colin’s era is underrated and not just in a “good Doctor, bad writing” sense.

In other news, the 5th and 6th Doctor’s eras are now complete on
Blu-ray with the release of the Season 21 Collection

They really should have just included The Twin Dilemma as a bonus on the Season 22 set. Still include it on 21 for obvious reasons, but it is ridiculous we had to wait YEARS to get the final bit of ol’ Sixy, and had McCoy beat him to being the first complete run on disc (unless you count McGann, which I don’t, given the Bluray is an upscale because they couldn’t get the original film print).

[Flap Jack]

They really should have just included The Twin Dilemma as a bonus on the Season 22 set. Still include it on 21 for obvious reasons, but it is ridiculous we had to wait YEARS to get the final bit of ol’ Sixy, and had McCoy beat him to being the first complete run on disc (unless you count McGann, which I don’t, given the Bluray is an upscale because they couldn’t get the original film print).

Oh, I strongly disagree with this. Season 21 is Season 21 and Season 22 is Season 22! It’s weird that they decided to switch Doctors in the middle of a season, but they did. A serial being in the wrong box set and being in multiple ones would just annoy me. Plus the extra disc would take up extra shelf space. I don’t think it’s worth breaking the logic of these sets just to appease the presumably massive “loves The Twin Dilemma but hates The Caves of Androzani” crowd. Plus it would set a precedent for including The Smugglers and The Tenth Planet on the Season 3 set.

I will however be willing to make an exception for the times they simply uncover or create content too late. Principally, if they eventually get around to animating the missing episodes of The Crusade, they should include that on a different Hartnell set. Also they should put the new omnibus version of The Sea Devils onto the Season 11 set.

[cwickham]

The cited reasons why The Crusade didn’t get an animation during the lifetime of the original DVD range were:

– Too many different characters and sets

– Use of blackface

– Hartnell historicals were consistently the lowest sellers in the range

– The big scratch in the surviving print of episode 1 would cause quality control issues with a standalone release

[Flap Jack]

Understandable reasons generally, though I’m not sure I fully buy the blackface reason. They still released the surviving episodes after all, and in an animation they could just animate the character as actually Black rather than a white person in blackface. The animations have taken plenty of other creative liberties.

But I still hold out hope they might animate the story in the future, because the scope for the animated reconstructions has broadened quite a lot since the original DVD range.

[Ben Saunders]

The blackface excuse is strange because they animated The Abominable Snowmen, race-swapping the characters so it’s really confusing when you watch the surviving episodes in line with the animation. People suddenly turn Tibetan for 25 minutes.

[International Debris]

I have a weird relationship with the revival series in general. On the whole I only watch it because it’s Doctor Who. I do enjoy the bulk of Matt’s run, and I think series 4 and 10 are mostly solid, but otherwise it’s just the odd episode here and there that I enjoy. If I’d not seen the classic series, it’s very unlikely I’d have watched it, would probably have tuned out somewhere near the start of series 1. 

I can appreciate what it is about RTD’s run that people like, and how those qualities are missing in his second, and in Chibnall’s. But the first three series are just really not aimed at me, and in terms of overall enjoyment I probably have them on par with series 8, 9, and 11 to 15: always a couple of episodes I enjoy but mostly just naff. This is why I actually rarely discuss the revival series online, because I’m not actually a fan. 

Whatever behind-the-scenes stuff went on to completely fuck up the last two series is irritating, though, as the badly patched together arcs distract from the better episodes so much. 73 Yards, The Well, Boom, Joy to the World, there’s some top drawer stuff, but so much of the series was dedicated to a terrible story arc that got ruined and turned into an even worse one that it became the overriding memory of it. The abysmal writing in the finales just compounds that. 

[Rushy]

I have a great love for Eccleston in particular, but I think something was lost after his tenure. Even though he played it very differently from the classics, there was a sense of groundedness and verisimilitude in his performance that harkened back to Hartnell, Pertwee, Davison and McGann, who all felt like real people to me and not elaborate caricatures. 

[Technopeasant]

Plus it would set a precedent for including The Smugglers and The Tenth Planet on the Season 3 set.

If they ever do a Season 3 set…

Only 19 out of 45 episodes survive in the BBC archives; 26 remain missing. As a result, only three serials are complete.

Unless the private collections lead really pays off or they really get animating…

[Technopeasant]

Season 1 (if they can finally work out how to do Marco Polo) and Season 6 (if they animate The Space Pirates) are much more immediately possible options for the 1960s.

[Unrumble]

I have a weird relationship with the revival series in general. On the whole I only watch it because it’s Doctor Who. I do enjoy the bulk of Matt’s run, but otherwise it’s just the odd episode here and there that I enjoy. 

Wow, feels like you just summed up my feelings towards the show better than I ever could, along with what Ben echoed about wanting to like it, and there being nothing stopping people from making something good, because it has such potential. 

My nostalgia and love for the classic show keep me returning (though I missed most of series 3 & 4 while at uni, and have never bothered to go back and watch. Found Tennant irritating back then, too.), despite the fact that a lot of the time I’m left fairly cold by it.

Eccleston and Smith were the years that engaged me the most, and I wanted so badly to like Capaldi and Whittaker’s era’s more than I did, but the latter’s eps just felt like week after week of failed potential… The Tennant/Tate specials were a bit of fun, but I really struggled with motivation for Gatwa’s run, I basically lost interest part way through, and ended up slogging through the last 3 eps of his first series weeks after it had ended. 

[Flap Jack]

If they ever do a Season 3 set…

I believe people involved with the range have confirmed that the plan is to do a set for all 26 classic seasons, and the blurbs saying things like “build your archive” support this.

For any episodes that are still lost and haven’t been animated by the time the Season 3 set happens, they’ll just include telesnap reconstructions. Season 3 is still worth doing for the episodes that do survive.

[International Debris]

The biggest issue with season 3 is how bloody big it’ll be. The season 2 box is already pushing it when it comes to a functional box, and season 3 would require at least one more disc.

[Ben Saunders]

Good news, the Restoration Team website is back up! You can read all about the work they did for the DVD and VHS ranges. It was down for what felt like years and I have no idea when it went back up. https://restorationteam.impossiblethings.net/

[Technopeasant]

If they ever do a Season 3 set…
I believe people involved with the range have confirmed that the plan is to do a set for all 26 classic seasons, and the blurbs saying things like “build your archive” support this.
For any episodes that are still lost and haven’t been animated by the time the Season 3 set happens, they’ll just include telesnap reconstructions. Season 3 is still worth doing for the episodes that do survive.

There was also this: https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/sci-fi/doctor-who-missing-stories-animations-newsupdate/

Quizzed at the BFI panel as to whether future animations could instead form part of a season boxset – allowing for more Blu-ray set releases of early William Hartnell and Patrick Troughton seasons – Hembury said: “That’s exactly the approach that we’re taking.”

[Technopeasant]

I don’t think it’s worth breaking the logic of these sets

Worth pointing out that in Region 1 they divide the sets by Doctor rather than production season. 
So having The Twin Dilemma on the Season 21 set arguably breaks THAT logic. Mind you, I do think that arrangement is bollocks, even if it backs up my argument.

[Flap Jack]

Yeah, I knew about that, and as soon as the first one was revealed I thought “well that’s going to be awkward when they get to Seasons 4 and 21”.

But still, a season is a season, whether you call it “Peter Davison Season Three” or “Colin Baker Season One”.

[Rushy]

Does anyone else really love season 2?

I don’t think there’s a bad story in there, and you can clearly see improvements in the production design (the move to a bigger studio) and chemistry between the actors. Hartnell in particular is at the height of his powers. You’ve still got Ian and Barbara. 

[International Debris]

It’s a strong run of stories. I know some people find The Web Planet a bit much but I’ve always been fond of it, and I find The Space Museum underrated (although the novelisation is a lot better than the TV version). It’s a really nice halfway point between the more conventional first season and the more experimental but far less consistent third. 

[Renegade Rob]

Oof, The Web Planet was everything I was afraid I was in for when I started watching the classic series, and while I’ve been pleasantly surprised by how much I enjoy the classic series overall and Hartnell in particular… The Web Planet sucks. There’s a hypothetical version of it that’s decent, like I can almost see it animated as something like an episode of The Clone Wars with its battles and flying soldiers, but in execution, I was embarrassed to watch it. The rest of Season 2 is quite good, and hate to say it but oh man is Vicki an upgrade to Susan, so having the awesomeness of Ian and Barbara with Vicki on top of that is sort of a dream team. (Strangely, I still like Season 3 better even though Dodo sucks, but I’m especially fond of The Dalek Master Plan and the Gunfighters, which put it ahead for me.)

[Rushy]

 I know some people find The Web Planet a bit much 

My dear mother endured the Hartnell marathon until this story… then no more. 

Fortunately, she has been willing to see random stories from all the later Doctors and has seen about half of New Who, but never again was she willing to binge the classics. 

Ironic, really, as she was the one that got me into Doctor Who. 

[Rushy]

I’m very protective of Susan. I think Carole Anne Ford was an absolute marvel. The show so rarely took advantage of her talent, but she was mesmerising whenever she was allowed to be. Just as good as Hartnell himself, really. 

[Renegade Rob]

I’m very protective of Susan. I think Carole Anne Ford was an absolute marvel. 

Oh, make no mistake, she’s a gem. And if they don’t have her appear in the 2026 Christmas Special after bungling her return in Series 15, I will be very very displeased. 

[Rushy]

I want closure for her as well, but I have severe doubts about Russell’s ability to write… well, anything… anymore. The last few years were as coherent and tasteful as Dwarf VIII. 

On the other hand, Ford and (presumably) Tennant have so much history with the show that they might be able to bring some sort of gravitas to a reunion scene from their own pure enthusiasm alone. 

[Ben Saunders]

Planet of Giants I quite like. It’s very strange, the way it’s framed by that story featuring the normal humans who don’t interact with the main cast at all. I like the attempts to show miniaturised people and location in Lime Grove D, that’s pretty ambitious. I think the sink works particularly well. 

Dalek Invasion of Earth… there’s something about it that I can’t really connect to, the way it’s shot or something, I really don’t know. It feels very ropey, and like the ambition of the show is aiming much higher than it can reach. I do however like Susan snapping at the guy who asks “and what do you do” with “I eat”. And the Daleks calling the attack on their saucer “unprovoked”. And the quite novel flashback scene where somebody describes the invasion while we see it acted out, which as it was done live is quite interesting to see. I also like Susan’s final scene, if you ignore the dodginess of a young girl getting lumped with the first guy she gets the hots for. 

The Rescue is excellent. Just wonderful stuff. Maureen O’Brien is great. Her and Barbara and especially the Doctor are a great found family. I enjoy Barbara killing her pet due to her assuming it is a monster. I love the tight mystery, the reveal, the costume, and the strange psychedelic way it all ends. 

The Romans is fun. 

The Web Planet is unwatchable. I’m happy for other people to enjoy it, who aren’t me. 

The Crusade… the first episode is brilliant, I haven’t seen the rest. 

The Space Museum I like, especially episode one of course. Robert Shearman (writer of Dalek) has a great little piece on the DVD about why he loves that story. It is a little dull and generic I guess but he makes great excuses for what that might be. Vicki starting a revolution is such fun. 

The Chase, depending on what mood I’m in, is either the most fun you can possibly have watching Doctor Who, or an outright fucking embarrassment. It’s a very shoddy production, and the Daleks are deeply stupid in it. But it’s deliberately silly, comic book nonsense, and has a pace to it and a sense of fun you don’t really find anywhere else. Watching it as a comedy it’s great, watching it as Doctor Who it’s pretty dire.

The lead-in to The Chase at the end of The Space Museum, however, is astonishing. It’s so simple, just a shot of a light on a wall, pulling out to reveal two Daleks, announcing to the audience that they have the capability to travel through time and space and are now using it to actively pursue the TARDIS crew. It’s in this moment I think that the Daleks are truly shown to be the arch-nemesis of The Doctor. And I just imagine how exciting it must have been to watch that in 1966 or whenever. It’s stark and a little frightening even now. It announces that shit is about to get real. Even if it does then lead into The Chase of all things.

[Flap Jack]

My dear mother endured the Hartnell marathon until this story… then no more.

Fortunately, she has been willing to see random stories from all the
later Doctors and has seen about half of New Who, but never again was
she willing to binge the classics.

Was the Classic Who-athon attempted before or after the Red Dwarf-athon? Because if it was after, you should have already known the correct play was to skip immediately to Castrovalva.

[Ben Saunders]

We’re caught in a space–time trap!!

[Technopeasant]

I enjoy Barbara killing her pet due to her assuming it is a monster.

[Rushy]

Was the Classic Who-athon attempted before or after the Red Dwarf-athon? Because if it was after, you should have already known the correct play was to skip immediately to Castrovalva.

actually, I’m pretty sure we started with the Five Doctors

[Ian Symes]

Ben, you missed off The Time Meddler, which is the best Hartnell story IMO. I mean, logically it would have probably made more sense to end the season with Ian and Barbara’s departure and then have the exciting new companion, the first appearance of another of the Doctor’s race, and the first story to properly mix history and sci-fi as the start of the next season, but they did things differently back then.

[Ben Saunders]

Ben, you missed off The Time Meddler

I was looking at the list of episodes on Wikipedia and still managed to do this. Shit!
Time Meddler is brilliant, Peter Butterworth is brilliant, the cliffhangers are great – the record reveal, The Monk has a TARDIS! It’s the perfect amount of daft, and Hartnell seems to relish playing things slightly silly. The random shots of them in the star field at the end are nice, even if it is strange that they never did it before or since, and seemingly did it for no reason.

The “season” distinctions in Classic Who are a little strange because the show aired pretty constantly anyway, and they were always holding episodes back from the end of one season to broadcast at the start of the next, for whatever reason. Planet of Giants I know is an S1 leftover and it’s possible Dalek Invasion is as well. Power of the Daleks is the third serial of season 4, rather than having the Doctor switch occur in the first or last. Terror of the Zygons was part of Season 12 until they decided to hold onto it to open Season 13. Ending Peter Davison’s last season with Colin Baker’s first was deliberately planned but still one of the stupidest things the show has ever done, quite possibly doing permanent damage to itself.

[Renegade Rob]

Yeah, if Classic Who ever got remade or readapted in some way for modern consumption, the finales are all off based on the “actual” seasons. Dalek Invasion of Earth would be the natural Season 1 finale, The Chase is the clear Season 2 finale, and The Tenth Planet would be the Season 3 finale with a clean break from Hartnell to Troughton. But even Troughton gets weird in his era by ditching companions in the penultimate episode of a season (Ben/Polly, Victoria) and then recruiting a new companion in the actual finale (although Evil of the Daleks is admittedly a neat finale for Season 4). 

[Warbodog]

I’ve been enjoying this minimal Cybermanwave recorded in a shed in 1982 by two teenagers happy with their TV21 childhoods.

[Stephen Abootman]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/2026/lost-doctor-who-episodes-iplayer-good-friday

The two DMP episodes will be on BBC iPlayer from 6am tomorrow.

[Technopeasant]

As ghastly as it is to say I don’t really feel like watching a serial that is still incomplete.

That and I’d have to pirate it unless they eventually add it to Britbox. Yarr.

You all have fun.

[Author]

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