Titan: Prologue & Part 1 – SPOILERS

[Ian Symes]

Welcome to the spoiler-laden discussion thread for Red Dwarf: Titan Prologue and Part 1: Walverlof.

This is a place for no-holds-barred, detailed, nitty-gritty opinions and theories on everything in the first part of the book. Please try and avoid referencing anything from beyond this part, so that people can visit each thread as they complete each section of the book. And if you haven’t yet read Part 1, get out of here immediately.

Your comments may be used in the DwarfCast Book Club at a future date, so if your point is related to a specific sub-chapter, do mark it clearly.

Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4 | Part 5

 

 

Topic

[Dave]

Really? I feel like she was multi-dimensional in 7 and felt more “woman written by a bloke” in 8.

“Oh, but Cassandra promised” is funnier than anything she did in VII. As is “oh my God, that’s so embarrassing.” 
I also really loved the pan on her head in Only the Good, the way she looks at Lister from under her hat in Back in the Red, and her smoking the cigars and dancing around with the rest of them in the deleted ending. She went native, so to speak, and there’s something really delightful about that. 

I kind of think you’re both right. And I think it’s to do with the shift in her character perspective – she’s very consciously an outside in VII, from another crew and another universe, and we constantly see her through that lens. But in VIII she’s pushed into being far more a part of the regular group (in the story, through circumstance; and in terms of how she’s written, by choice), and so there’s less of the tension between her and the rest of the characters.

[Dave]

Really? I feel like she was multi-dimensional in 7 and felt more “woman written by a bloke” in 8.

“Oh, but Cassandra promised” is funnier than anything she did in VII. As is “oh my God, that’s so embarrassing.” 
I also really loved the pan on her head in Only the Good, the way she looks at Lister from under her hat in Back in the Red, and her smoking the cigars and dancing around with the rest of them in the deleted ending. She went native, so to speak, and there’s something really delightful about that. 

I kind of think you’re both right. And I think it’s to do with the shift in her character perspective – she’s very consciously an outside in VII, from another crew and another universe, and we constantly see her through that lens. But in VIII she’s pushed into being far more a part of the regular group (in the story, through circumstance; and in terms of how she’s written, by choice), and so there’s less of the tension between her and the rest of the characters.

[Dave]

So what is it etc.

[Warbodog]

Andrew has basically put this speculation to bed. The book is the book. There was once an idea for a TV show but the book is entirely its own thing. 

Yeah, I appreciated that clarification too. Though I’d assumed it was adapting their plans for the whole Series 1 rather than a pilot, since Rob commented a long time ago that the show and novel would be written simultaneously.

[Podey]

What did he say?

(I can guess, obv, but just to elaborate)

[Flap Jack]

I can’t remember, when Titan was just being pitched as a cartoon, was it mentioned if the plan was to get the original characters to voice their younger selves? Because in its current form I think Kochanski is the only returning character you couldn’t do that with, if you were to do a full cast audiobook.

At the end of the day the Yorkshire thing is not an actual big deal or anything, it just doesn’t have a clear explanation.

[Dave]

At the end of the day the Yorkshire thing is not an actual big deal or anything, it just doesn’t have a clear explanation.

Yeah, it’s the kind of thing that could easily be altered for casting purposes without any real need for rewrites.

[Turk Thrust]

Doesn’t make sense to me. An underlying and explicitly stated premise of the book is that it’s “one universe to the side” after all, and some characters are virtually identical to their original versions while others are noticeably different. Why is Kochanski alone the one who needs to have her origins shifted in order to distinguish her from her prime universe counterpart?
Like if that was a serious concern they should have made Lister Geordie or something.

For the reasons already given.

Rob felt that Clare Grogan and Craig had no chemistry with each other, so the character didn’t work as they’d envisaged.

And Rob said that one of the things he disliked about VII was the way Kochanski was used.

Anyway, as this is the best depiction of Kochanski there’s ever been, I don’t think people can complain too much about the changes that they’ve made.

They had no need to make Lister Geordie as he is obviously a hugely successful and popular character as he is.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

For the reasons already given.
Rob felt that Clare Grogan and Craig had no chemistry with each other, so the character didn’t work as they’d envisaged.
And Rob said that one of the things he disliked about VII was the way Kochanski was used.
Anyway, as this is the best depiction of Kochanski there’s ever been, I don’t think people can complain too much about the changes that they’ve made.
They had no need to make Lister Geordie as he is obviously a hugely successful and popular character as he is.

 Neither of those mean you’d have change her origins. And where has Rob stated anything about VII Kochanski. Unless I’ve missed something he’d only ever commented that he tried to watch a bit of VII, found it like watching someone else have sex with his wife, and turned it off. 

[Turk Thrust]

Neither of those mean you’d have change her origins. And where has Rob stated anything about VII Kochanski. Unless I’ve missed something he’d only ever commented that he tried to watch a bit of VII, found it like watching someone else have sex with his wife, and turned it off. 

Well, the only reason she was Scottish in the first place is because Alexandra Pigg (from Liverpool) couldn’t be in it, so they got Clare Grogan instead.

And Rob talked about Kochanski in VII when he gave an interview to promote one of his books (it was with a local BBC radio station).

I think it’s entirely understandable that he would want people to have a new image of Kochanski in their heads because she has always been the least popular of the regular characters. Until now.  

[tombow]

Surprised Rob ever said anything specific criticising Series 7+? Wasn’t he supposed to be to uncomfortable to even watch them?

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Surprised Rob ever said anything specific criticising Series 7+? Wasn’t he supposed to be to uncomfortable to even watch them?

Yeah. Unless Turk can source the interview that so far only they have heard I’ll take it with a pinch of salt. 

I only say that as this is community of people so in the details of everything going on and being said in every interview, that if a creator had said something it would be part of the communities consciousness. Which it isn’t. 

[Dax101]

I imagine Rob had no idea how Chloe’s Kochanski was written. He probably did not get that far into Series 7 to know.

But unless you were living under a rock it wasn’t that hard to know she was now part of the group so he really did not need to know much.

[Turk Thrust]

I imagine Rob had no idea how Chloe’s Kochanski was written. He probably did not get that far into Series 7 to know.

But unless you were living under a rock it wasn’t that hard to know she was now part of the group so he really did not need to know much.

He mentioned it in an interview with BBC Radio Wiltshire back in around 2004. Here is the link to the old page, but the audio seems lost now. The synopsis does say, “Hear what Rob had to say about working on Red Dwarf and what he thought of the show after he left,” so it’s not like I’m making this stuff up.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/wiltshire/entertainment/films_and_tv/robgrant.shtml

As you say, he probably didn’t do a deep study into how she was included, but I have specific memories of him saying, “I disliked VII so much that I couldn’t bring myself to watch VIII. The use of Kochanski was so far away from anything I would have done.”

And the important point is surely that he had nothing at all to do with Chloe’s version of the character, so it’s only natural that he wanted to take Kochanski in a new direction. 

[Asclepius]

I imagine Rob had no idea how Chloe’s Kochanski was written. He probably did not get that far into Series 7 to know.
But unless you were living under a rock it wasn’t that hard to know she was now part of the group so he really did not need to know much.

He mentioned it in an interview with BBC Radio Wiltshire back in around 2004. Here is the link to the old page, but the audio seems lost now. The synopsis does say, “Hear what Rob had to say about working on Red Dwarf and what he thought of the show after he left,” so it’s not like I’m making this stuff up.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/wiltshire/entertainment/films_and_tv/robgrant.shtml
As you say, he probably didn’t do a deep study into how she was included, but I have specific memories of him saying, “I disliked VII so much that I couldn’t bring myself to watch VIII. The use of Kochanski was so far away from anything I would have done.”
And the important point is surely that he had nothing at all to do with Chloe’s version of the character, so it’s only natural that he wanted to take Kochanski in a new direction. 

This feels like an exciting challenge for Internet Archive (which is currently down).

And a Real Audio file. Jeez. I wonder what the potential is for someone to have downloaded this at the time. A .ram file was downloadable if I remember right, whereas another version of the extension was only streamable?

[Asclepius]

I imagine Rob had no idea how Chloe’s Kochanski was written. He probably did not get that far into Series 7 to know.
But unless you were living under a rock it wasn’t that hard to know she was now part of the group so he really did not need to know much.
He mentioned it in an interview with BBC Radio Wiltshire back in around 2004. Here is the link to the old page, but the audio seems lost now. The synopsis does say, “Hear what Rob had to say about working on Red Dwarf and what he thought of the show after he left,” so it’s not like I’m making this stuff up.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/wiltshire/entertainment/films_and_tv/robgrant.shtml
As you say, he probably didn’t do a deep study into how she was included, but I have specific memories of him saying, “I disliked VII so much that I couldn’t bring myself to watch VIII. The use of Kochanski was so far away from anything I would have done.”
And the important point is surely that he had nothing at all to do with Chloe’s version of the character, so it’s only natural that he wanted to take Kochanski in a new direction. 

This feels like an exciting challenge for Internet Archive (which is currently down).
And a Real Audio file. Jeez. I wonder what the potential is for someone to have downloaded this at the time. A .ram file was downloadable if I remember right, whereas another version of the extension was only streamable?

Hmm…I’ve managed to download it. A 1kb file, suggesting it was only a sort-of portal to something else that was embedded online, perhaps? Frustrating. 

[Jenuall]

Yeah those .ram files are literally just a pointer to where the real audio stream/source is located, which sadly would appear not to exist any more

[Dave]

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

If only this site knew someone that worked at the BBC and was known to be able to lay their hands on historical documents and files relating to a variety of shows produced by the company and who had, in the past, used these documents to write rather interesting articles about the show in question. 

[Asclepius]

If only this site knew someone that worked at the BBC and was known to be able to lay their hands on historical documents and files relating to a variety of shows produced by the company and who had, in the past, used these documents to write rather interesting articles about the show in question. 

Failing that (!) I see the guy who presented this show is still presenting this show several years on. I wonder if a message to the production team/himself would help in any way?

[tombow]

Maybe we could find street CCTV of the studio on the day and find someone who can convert the visual sound waves to audio, or failing that find the nearest ancient stones site and use magnets and wind chimes to activate any “stone tapes” it may have saved of the day.

[Podey]

Fear not, there is a theory that sound never actually decays and historical speech lingers as faint ripples in the universe so all we have to do is wait long enough for a strong enough listening device to be invented and we’ll be able to listen to it on (literal) catch up.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

https://www.ganymede.tv/2004/01/bbc-wiltshire-excellent/
Well this is fucking annoying. John didn’t bloody write it up. 
Unrelated I just found this. https://60minuteswith.co.uk/interviews/interview-rob-grant/

edit: Apple Podcasts link

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/episode-94-rob-grant/id921365537?i=1000393815863

[Turk Thrust]

While it was a nice interview and covered Rob’s entire career, the quotes I mentioned are pretty much all he said about Doug’s Dwarf. And, who knows, he might have only watched 10 minutes of Ouroboros to form that opinion. You can imagine he would be curious about how they were going to cope with Rimmer’s absence and, like many of the fanbase, was probably unimpressed by the return of Kochanski.

I recall that Rob and Jack Docherty also did a webchat when The Strangerers was broadcast. Rob was asked a bunch of questions about Red Dwarf and he talked about not wanting to be involved with it anymore. Jack made the jokey comment, “Ah, but you could have worked with the lovely Chloe Annett.” He wasn’t saying anything negative about her, but (as another poster mentioned) Rob was obviously very aware that Kochanski had returned with a new actress playing her.

Anyhow, to get back to Titan, it worked for me to change Kochanski’s back story as I can’t picture her as either Clare or Chloe. No disrespect to either of them (Clare was great in Gregory’s Girl and the writing didn’t help Chloe), but when you have a character who hasn’t been popular previously, it makes sense to make a change. Rob and Andrew nailed it this time. 

[tombow]

I tried to picture Titan Kris as Clare, as that made sense to me with her being the Rob era’s Kris, but my mind kept defaulting to Chloe, as the dialogue and story seemed to match her better somehow. Maybe because I’ve watched Chloe in more “steely and determined” roles.

[Dax101]

Rob probably felt the same way a lot of fans felt when Kochanski was reported to be joining the crew. Along with Rimmer leaving obviously. Kochanski isn’t really a character you would think fits in with that dynamic. Doug tried to make it work for Series 7, and sorta tried far less with Series 8. But the fans got used to her involved by that point, while Rob probably never got that far with the show. Course then she got written out again, but still.
I suspect both Rob and Doug had since reflected on the lack of female characters in the show, and the only one they could possibly think of to expand on is Kochanski.

[tombow]

Tbf the Last Human novel had a more complex McGruder (in flashback) and that shape shifter. I wish TV Doug had been that brave 

[Dave]

that shape shifter

Forever to be known as Rita’s Kabin.

[Warbodog]

I suspect both Rob and Doug had since reflected on the lack of female characters in the show

After they decided the one they had was surplus to requirements.

[Rushy]

Hattie in the audio commentaries be like

[tombow]

it’s fascinating to me to imagine what Rob’s private reaction to the whole run of Dwarf history after he left was, obv he must have known about the controversial bawdy silly tone of Series 8, the struggle to get the film made, the weirdness of Back To Earth, the mostly triumphant X-TPL run, etc. Did he feel any secret triumph at the hiccups or did he just choose to not think about any of it, positive or negative.

[Rushy]

I know he said what he said, but I find it very difficult to believe he didn’t watch the whole thing. I’d be so morbidly curious, no matter how bad the breakup was. 

[Dax101]

Edit

[Turk Thrust]

it’s fascinating to me to imagine what Rob’s private reaction to the whole run of Dwarf history after he left was, obv he must have known about the controversial bawdy silly tone of Series 8, the struggle to get the film made, the weirdness of Back To Earth, the mostly triumphant X-TPL run, etc. Did he feel any secret triumph at the hiccups or did he just choose to not think about any of it, positive or negative.

Not to mention them remastering 18 of the actual episodes that he worked on …

[Dax101]

Well he said that he found he had to be drunk in order to get through watching series 7. From that perspective, it must have been tough mentally to bring himself to watch any of it.

[tombow]

 Not to mention them remastering 18 of the actual episodes that he worked on …

[si]

BBC Wiltshire = Excellent

Well this is fucking annoying. John didn’t bloody write it up.  

On a whim, I just tried typing ‘Rob Grant BBC Wiltshire 2004’ into Youtube. I mistyped, and somehow came back with this:

[Turk Thrust]

it’s fascinating to me to imagine what Rob’s private reaction to the whole run of Dwarf history after he left was, obv he must have known about the controversial bawdy silly tone of Series 8, the struggle to get the film made, the weirdness of Back To Earth, the mostly triumphant X-TPL run, etc. Did he feel any secret triumph at the hiccups or did he just choose to not think about any of it, positive or negative.

I would guess that he probably tried to block a lot of it out. That would explain him not attending Dimension Jumps or participating in the DVDs (apart from the set with the Remastered episodes on, funnily enough).

It’s interesting that occasionally he crossed paths with other people from Dwarf, though. For example, his appearance on panel show Space Cadets opposite Craig Charles in 1997.

[Ian Symes]

We are recording the first Titan Book Club tomorrow! It’ll cover the Proloog and roughly the first half of Walverlof, up to and including Chapter 16. You have just over 24 hours to get your points in.

[Dave]

Oh shit, I haven’t done any of mine yet. I’ll get on that later.

[Dave]

Cover: 

I know some people found the cover a bit bland when it was first released, but I like it – it’s attention grabbing and stands out on a shelf, even if it does look a bit like a cover that’s scientifically calibrated to sell in airports.

Dedication: 

For Paul Jackson – an interesting touch and underlines how important he seems to have been in bringing Rob back to Red Dwarf.

PROLOOG: 

Well, this is all very interesting. Immediately this feels akin to IWCD in terms of very deliberately dropping us into an unfamiliar situation that has nothing to do with what we readers know of Red Dwarf, and then gradually revealing how it all fits into that universe. The description of the sky-traffic among the skyscrapers all feels very Fifth Element/Attack of the Clones, and a little bit Blade Runner (but not in a Back To Earth way).

A few bits stand out in this chapter: the looming silhouette of Red Dwarf is a very nice (and very visual) way of introducing the ship, and the early reference to holograms helps remind us that we’re in that world, albeit a slightly weirder version in which monkeys drive flying cabs. There’s some fun writing in certain passages (the setup and payoff of calculating the exact specs of the proto-glass and then smashing it with a fire extinguisher made me laugh). And it’s only a few pages into the novel that we get some grim physical violence. Thanks Rob.

WALVERLOF:

If the Xanadu quote that opens this segment doesn’t immediately make you think of Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick & Tich, you’re not a real Red Dwarf fan.

Chapter 1: 

This introduction of individual characters is almost like a cast list at the start of a screenplay or playscript. I like the mix of old familiar faces and people who are new to this book.

The Holly acronym is ridiculous and absurd. I like it. The part about him answering multiple questions simultaneously is very IWCD.

“Randolph Hollister” and “Francis Todhunter” both raised eyebrows.

Having Kochanski’s first actions in the book be to open a bag of dildos is certainly quite a choice. Luckily things improve from here.

Once we get to Lister and Rimmer, it’s classic series 1 stuff, although with a slight edge to it – Rimmer’s teasing of Lister over Kochanski adds a hint of danger.

“Rimmer’s anal crypt” is a good band name.

The section with Lister walking down two different corridors initially feels like it could be a printing error, and gives us the first real sense of timey-wimey weirdness in the book.

Chapter 2: 

The Lister-Kochanski stuff is nicely handled here, and feels real in a way that their relationship hasn’t always before.

The comedic setpiece with Rimmer and Hollister would work well on screen – you can almost see it playing out in your mind.

The Byle-Rimmer relationship already has strange BDSM undertones, and this is just the start.

Chapter 3: 

THE THEME TUNE EXISTS IN-UNIVERSE.

Reading this section with the warning video for the first time, after having watched the teaser film on youtube, was an interesting experience, and definitely added another dimension to the book. If you’re going to pull any material from this book to adapt as a teaser trailer, this is a good section to use.

Petersen and Pear (who briefly becomes a Peach midway through the chapter) already have a fun dynamic.

The magnetic chain is definitely very Knuckles Chaotix. Presumably Rob and Andrew were huge Sega 32X fans.

Chapter 4:

The extra details on Holly here are intriguing, and the Holly Buddy is inspired.

The final line here is a classic Backwards-style chapter cliffhanger, and one of the things that make both books such page-turners.

Chapter 5:

Tex Garcia’s grisly death was a legitimate shock given all the build-up, and helps to give the book a slight anything-can-happen vibe.

Chapter 6:

The start of Rimmer’s Byle-dreams. It took me a second to realise.

Rimmer getting hit by a Honda to get an H on his forehead is, to me, an inspired gag that would work even better visually than it does in print.

Chapter 7:

Kochanski is from Yorkshire. Hmmmm.

There’s the start of some nice character-building here for her, and this is maybe the first time I have felt like we’ve really ever got inside her head properly in the novels. Last Human never really managed that, for me.

Chapter 8:

A Divadroid mechanoid with a mid-Atlantic accent and a funny-shaped head! Of course, it’s going to be… hey, wait a minute.

Explaining the hologram H gag is still funny, but the collision does suggest that Carzon would happily walk through a hologram, which as we know from The End is a big etiquette no-no.

Rimmer irritatedly calling Carzon a “little shit” is just a little bit too barbed for Red Dwarf, but still seems right somehow.

Carzon is obviously a pseudo-Kryten, but is instantly funny and endearing here, and in a way that’s subtly but noticeably different to Kryten – more overly-literal and deadpan. This is maybe one of the best choices in the novel and helps to again give it a sense of newness rather than just retreading familiar ground.

Chapter 9:

Back to the criminal subplot again. The description of the ever-face-changing helmet made me think of the similar Scramble Suits from Philip K Dick’s A Scanner Darkly.

These sections with minimal references to existing Red Dwarf characters and lore definitely make me think of Rob’s previous novels like Colony and Incompetence, just in terms of how everything is laid out.

The final line is another intriguing tease, though. What is the relevance of Red Dwarf here?

Chapter 10:

The bellbot skutters are a funny visual.

The stuff about Hollister and his bothersome wife feels quite generic, cliche and dated though.

On the basis of this chapter, perhaps Kochanski’s new Yorkshire origin is meant to set up the idea of her being a bit more hard-nosed and persistent than the versions we’re used to? Again, a bit of a cliche but maybe that was the thinking.

Chapter 11:

Rimmer’s acknowledgement that he is actually a “thicko” could have easily been played for pathos, as it’s quite a moment of self-realisation for him that his faults are his own. As it is, it just feels like slightly over-the-top and repetitive banter with Carzon. It all really grates by the end of this short chapter.

Chapter 12:

This is where the Kochanski subplot starts to falter a little for me. There just isn’t quite enough work done to establish that she would care that much about Themis, which is the crux of her entire story in this book.

Having said that, given the way her dog-with-a-bone attitude is set up, combined with the fact that she clearly doesn’t want to be at her own Hen Do, I think you can just about go with it.

Chapter 13:

I know that the Petersen-Pear interludes have had a mixed reception on G&T, but I really like them. The two characters make for a really fun pairing (pearing?) and Petersen’s artistic awakening is a fun (if predictable) bit of comedy business that I think would work particularly well in live action. And yes I am imagining Mark Williams doing this bit.

Chapter 14:

Byle turning up kind of kills it though. She’s more of a caricature than a character, and this whole chapter goes more in the slapstick direction and isn’t as funny as the preceding one.

Chapter 15:

More Kochanski. I think it was at this point that I realised she was actually going to be a significant main character in the book.

Tristan & Raymond are a fun parody of Siegfried & Roy, but it’s one of those references that feels so dated by now that I wonder how many people actually recognise the inspiration.

The word “Mercifully” is used twice in quick succession here, and it makes it a bit too obvious that there are a few contrivances to allow Kochanski’s mission to proceed a little too smoothly to get the plotty stuff out of the way quickly. It’s a little bit “somehow, Holly had done it”.

Chapter 16:

A Cat! Two cats! A second Lister! How intriguing.

This is another chapter that you can really visualise playing out on-screen. There’s a nice atmosphere to some of these quieter, less overtly comedic passages.

[Dave]

“It was, in short, noisy.”  That’s one of my favourite bits so far. 

This, to me, is a close cousin to Big Train’s “he really really looked like Shakespeare”.

[Author]

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