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  • #263585
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    Who would win in a buttle-off, Gilbert, Butler the Nova 3 android, or Hillary the butler as played by Chris Barrie in Lara Croft: Tomb Raider?

    #263586
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    Robert Addie got a raw deal from life. Being told he had terminal cancer just three weeks before he died. See also Graham Chapman (who would have been much better than Ruby Wax) dying at only 48.

    #263587
    RunawayTrain
    Participant

    Robert Addie got a raw deal from life. Being told he had terminal cancer just three weeks before he died. See also Graham Chapman (who would have been much better than Ruby Wax) dying at only 48.

    Wow, I had no idea Graham Chapman was that young. And Robert Addie was 43 when he died – for context, he was born the same year as Chris Barrie and Danny John-Jules. Sobering.

    As for a buttle-off, Butler might think it beneath him now, although if he deigned to serve I’m sure he would do so marvellously well. I didn’t see Lara Croft but in promo pics Hillary appears to be a bit handy with weapons, and being willing to travel and get into hairy situations in order to continue serving probably gets some butlering (buttling?) points. Gilbert seems the long-suffering type, putting up with Lister having more money than taste.
    … what are the criteria in this buttle-off?

    #263588
    si
    Participant

    what are the criteria in this buttle-off?

    Just… being a butler, I think.

    Captain Butler, for me. Every time. He’s got a rank and everything.

    #263644
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    Hopefully Thickie treated Gilbert better than • • • • • • • Lister.

    #263678
    RunawayTrain
    Participant

    I haven’t read the novels so this may be an answered question, but: is there any basis in canon for the London Jets being specifically the English Zero-G Football team? The Wiki says they are but provides no source.

    #263679
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    I don’t think so. In my head the London Jets are the one English representatives in an international or continental league, or at the very least an overseas franchise in an NFL style organisation, as that’s the only justification for a Scouser supporting them, other than being a filthy glory-hunter. But there’s nothing to back that up in the actual canon, that I can remember.

    #263680
    Dave
    Participant

    The fact that it’s called “football” but had always looked like (and been described in terms similar to) American football (touch-up shuffle etc.) has always made me feel like it’s an offshoot of that, and so – like other popular American sports that have only pockets of popularity in the UK – there are probably only a handful of UK teams of note.

    #263710
    evilmorwen
    Participant

    Maybe it’s even London, ON.

    #263835
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    When Lister changes the past, he, the, Cat, and Kryten disappear (because without Lister on RD, there would be no Cat Race and Kryten was never rescued).

    Well, Rimmer should have disappeared too, because, without Lister, Holly would have had no reason to activate him.

    And Holly should have had no memories of the Dwarfers, since they never existed in this timeline.

    Of course, had that happened, that would have meant the end of the series.

    #263837
    Spaceworm Jim
    Participant

    Kryten says at the end of the Inquisitor that the timeline is sorting itself out. It’s not intentional at all, but it can be headcanon’d that there is a period of time where events are in flux and memories don’t alter. We don’t see how long it is until the timeline is restored at the end of the Inquisitor, so it could be the same amount of time it takes Rimmer to fuck everything up at the end of Timeslides.

    Oh wait, this doesn’t work at all. Fuck.

    #263838
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    I think it was a little mean to bring Rimmer back to life then blow him up again… why would they have boxes of explosives on the ship in th- wait… mining ship… explosives… never mind…

    But they wouldn’t be in a big open place like that! They should be locked away somewhere! You don’t leave exploding things out where small children or people with equal intelligence to small children could get to them!!!

    #263842
    RunawayTrain
    Participant

    When Lister changes the past, he, the, Cat, and Kryten disappear (because without Lister on RD, there would be no Cat Race and Kryten was never rescued).

    Well, Rimmer should have disappeared too, because, without Lister, Holly would have had no reason to activate him.
    And Holly should have had no memories of the Dwarfers, since they never existed in this timeline.
    Of course, had that happened, that would have meant the end of the series.

    Rimmer was human in the first new timeline, I’m fairly sure. Doesn’t explain knowledge of the previous timeline and the other three though.

    Edit: actually I might be wrong, because Rimmer appears to have a H on his forehead when visiting Lister in the mansion. Further investigation is needed …

    Edit 2: (thanks Netflix!) Nope, I was wrong. Huh.
    Maybe needing a crew member to still have a purpose would explain Holly turning on a hologram, or maybe with the onset of senility realised she needed company so and turned someone on before she went too senile to do it, but why Rimmer?
    Certainly not for intellectual stimulation, or for someone to keep to their rank … maybe senility is the only explanation for the choice of Rimmer!

    (And *still* doesn’t explain the memories.)

    #263854
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    (the Series 2 episode BTL and its book form)

    trapping players in VR could become a weapon if – when – we reach that level of tech in real life. I certainly know of speculative fiction where vengeful people trap enemies in a virtual world.

    #263861
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    When Lister changes the past, he, the, Cat, and Kryten disappear (because without Lister on RD, there would be no Cat Race and Kryten was never rescued).

    Well, Rimmer should have disappeared too, because, without Lister, Holly would have had no reason to activate him.
    And Holly should have had no memories of the Dwarfers, since they never existed in this timeline.
    Of course, had that happened, that would have meant the end of the series.

    It’s not exactly uncommon in time travel stories for people to successfully change their own pasts but still keep their original memories, at least temporarily. So that’s what happens, which is why Holly chooses to activate Rimmer at this moment (as well as assume her Hilly/Hayridge form, presumably).

    Kryten says at the end of the Inquisitor that the timeline is sorting itself out. It’s not intentional at all, but it can be headcanon’d that there is a period of time where events are in flux and memories don’t alter. We don’t see how long it is until the timeline is restored at the end of the Inquisitor, so it could be the same amount of time it takes Rimmer to fuck everything up at the end of Timeslides.

    Oh wait, this doesn’t work at all. Fuck.

    It actually feels fine to me that these 2 episodes don’t portray consistent visions of using time travel to change history, because they use very different methods. The Inquisitor has admin rights over time – he can rewrite the code from the ground up. While in Timeslides the Dwarfers are essentially running the program as normal users, just with access to a few cheat codes.

    That doesn’t necessarily explain inconsistencies with other uses of time travel in the show like Out of Time, Tikka to Ride and Twentica, but oh well.

    #264256
    Lee Bee
    Blocked

    When Lister changes the past, he, the, Cat, and Kryten disappear […] Rimmer should have disappeared too, because, without Lister, Holly would have had no reason to activate him.

    Could have been that someone else went into stasis (eg Hollister), Rimmer was still brought back as a hologram, then Hollister died somehow.

    And Holly should have had no memories of the Dwarfers, since they never existed in this timeline.

    I think it’s best to take it as a given in Red Dwarf that the crew can remember ‘erased’ timelines.

    That’s really the only explanation why the crew consistently remember Rimmer’s original death (radiation leak) when he was actually killed by dynamite.

    It also explains why the crew can remember the events of White Hole (an episode which never actually happened) and can remember meeting their future selves from Out of Time, another event which never happened.

    I’d be willing to bet the crew can also remember their encounter with the Inquisitor (another episode which never happened). :-)

    #264274
    tombow
    Participant

    without Lister, Rimmer presumably would have has an assistant who helped him with the drive plates, and they all would have lived their normal lives, or the leak happened, and there were no survivors so Holly just bought the ship back to be cleaned or whatever. It should have all blinked out of existence. However I theorised earlier on this thread maybe Holly, Rimmer and the Ship were unaffected because they’re not organic.

    #264298
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Why do the Skutters have a dustpan and brush in Balance of Power when they can’t get their heads anywhere near the floor to use them? Are they exclusively cleaning stuff that’s a foot up in the air?

    #264311
    si
    Participant

    Are they exclusively cleaning stuff that’s a foot up in the air?

    It’s a gravity thing.

    #264315
    pfm
    Participant

    A few questions to ponder…

    1. Does Kryten, or any other crew member, know more about Kochanski’s current whereabouts than they have ever let on?

    2. Are Lister and Kochanski truly the last human beings alive?

    3. If both Lister and Kochanski died, or were presumed dead, what would Rimmer, Kryten and the Cat’s purpose be in the universe?

    4. What does an Earth, 3 million years later, actually look like?

    5. Would the rest of the crew listen if Rimmer really had to pull rank, in a life-or-death situation?

    6. If the crew came across technology that enabled them to grow more human beings, yet in a completely unethical way, would Lister be onboard with the idea? Just how far would he be willing to go to have people back?

    7. What if aliens DID suddenly turn up (or appear to…) in the Red Dwarf universe? Is that simply a line that should never be crossed, i.e, would it take things too far in the Doctor Who or Star Trek direction?

    8. Similar to the Lister question, how far would Rimmer go in order to become ‘real’ again? What if his hologrammatic memories and persona could be placed in a physical body? Not a body that resembled Rimmer himself, obviously, but someone or something else…?

    9. What if Holly had ALWAYS been wrong about Red Dwarf being 3 million years into deep space? He says he might have got the calculations wrong, and been out by ‘a couple of million…give or take. It’s hard to be sure about this sort of thing.’ Rimmer – ‘Hard to be sure? You’re supposed to have an IQ of 6,000!’ Holly – ‘You’re supposed to have a pulse, Arnold. It’s like that famous line from Jurassic Park 14, “Life finds a way…of making a complete balls-up of it all.”

    #264316

    Just how far would he be willing to go to have people back?

    He’d rather have no printed people around than have them working for Rimmer in Officer Rimmer, so not very far, apparently.

    #264317
    RunawayTrain
    Participant

    He’d rather have no printed people around than have them working for Rimmer in Officer Rimmer, so not very far, apparently.

    In fairness they weren’t just *people*, they were all Rimmers. Bit different from printing individuals!

    #264319

    Didn’t he suggest wiping the printing bank so Rimmer couldn’t create a crew of his subordinates?

    #264320
    Warbodog
    Participant

    9. What if Holly had ALWAYS been wrong about Red Dwarf being 3 million years into deep space?

    I’ve thought of this before as being a happy twist ending that would also make all the stuff they keep bumping into a bit more realistic, but the timeline’s been confirmed by others, like Kryten’s age given in Krysis.

    #264321
    Unrumble
    Participant

    Why do the Skutters have a dustpan and brush in Balance of Power when they can’t get their heads anywhere near the floor to use them? Are they exclusively cleaning stuff that’s a foot up in the air?

    It’s a flimsy attempt at looking like they’re working, maybe the logistical implausibility of a dustpan and brush give an extra layer of meaning to Rimmer’s “you must really think I’m stupid!”

    #264322

    Are Lister and Kochanski truly the last human beings alive?

    I often think about this. The only assertion we have is Holly’s. But there’s absolutely no way of knowing. Irene was (whilst found as a chimp) human. But even outside of that, the human race could have spread out from Earth in all directions, and Red Dwarf went in one of those. There’s another 3million years of expanding and breeding across the other 359 degrees so it is possible there are other humans out in space somewhere.

    However, chances are everyone has died out or evolved beyond what we would recognise as human (even if they are still there look what evolution has done to a household pet in 3 million years). Whatever the case though, functionally, for Lister, the human race is extinct. He is never going to just run back into a society of humanity he recognises in anyway.

    And we also have to take the writers at their word. They wrote the show with the intention that Lister is the last human. And until that changes, that is the case.

    #264347
    Jenuall
    Participant

    The skutters are obsessed with John Wayne and playing cowboys and Indians. Kryten “dreams” about a fictional Sherrif in a Western town when fighting the Armageddon virus.

    Are all mechanoids so fixated on the Wild West or is it something specific to those aboard Red Dwarf?

    #264348
    Dave
    Participant

    Not to mention the theme from High Noon as Holly goes to face Queeg.

    #264349
    Jenuall
    Participant

    I’d forgotten that one, the evidence is stacking up!

    #264378
    pfm
    Participant

    but the timeline’s been confirmed by others, like Kryten’s age given in Krysis.

    There are many simple explanations or workarounds could be used. When has a little detail like this ever been any kind of stumbling block in the past?

    #264393
    tombow
    Participant

    people in the RD era seem to love 50s/60s American culture. Marilyn Monroe, Confidence looking like a 50s game show host etc

    #264400
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    It’s almost as if the show was written by people who were young at that time.

    #264402
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Long before the “populated universe” complaints of the Dave era, I always found it extremely questionable that GELFs were as far out into space as the crew of the Dwarf are. I mean, those GELF must have come from Earth. Human ships from Earth. But Red Dwarf left earth a long, long time before any of those GELF ships must have. How did the Nova 5 get so far out into deep space? None of it really works. It’s very questionable in that case that they would just meet GELFs and robots and never any human colonies. GELFs could be using humans as slaves on one of their planets or moons, there’s a story for you.

    I’ve been thinking about this stuff since before the show came back on Dave.

    The fact that they bother to explain in the books that the Nova 5 had an FtL drive seems like GN are at least aware that it being out that far is silly.

    Arguably it makes sense that the longer the show goes on, the more they meet things/people since they’re moving closer to Earth, one assumes.

    #264403
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Space gets a lot less empty from series IV when they come across ships or pods in the first three episodes and there also happens to be a permanent space station nearby in Justice. But outside of Meltdown, it still feels light on guest characters and everything’s decrepit and/or hauntingly empty, so it still has the atmosphere. That’s changed by series VI when they’re dropping terms like “GELF Space” and it’s getting more trad space adventure (still great).

    #264412

    perhaps space is a möbius strip and by going FTL themselves in Future Echos they actually got close back to human civilisation, just from the other direction and have been heading into it ever since.

    #264413
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    You couldn’t do 3,000,000 years in a straight line could you. You’d have to come back round at least a little at some point to avoid a black hole or a sun or something, but I’d say the standard scifi get out of jail free card of “wormholes” would be the likely explanation.

    They all seem to know of simulants/ eugenics/ genetically engineered stuff when they encounter it, so maybe GELFs and simulants got shot off into Deep Space before Red Dwarf did.

    #264415

    It’s never mentioned how they manage to turn around (especially in context of the line in Future Echoes about how long it would take), but even if they manage to turn around in series 1, they’ve still only been travelling back to Earth for, what, a few hundred years including the various spells in deep sleep. A thousand or so tops. That is only a drop in the ocean in the context of three million. So yeah, basically everything we bump into, from the Polymorph’s canister onwards, suggests that humanity managed to just about catch up with them, or, if humans have been extinct for a long time, then humanity managed to overtake them.
    Of course, if humans <i>have</i> been extinct for many millennia, it’s hard to imagine all the technology would still be working. Some things they find seem derelict, but even if humanity lasted two million years, it’s hard to imagine that any space stations would have survived another million.

    All in all, if Rob and Doug had planned to take the show into the more action-and-exploration direction when they started writing it, I really doubt they would have gone with three million. As a figure it works really well for the total isolation of the first two series, but not so much for everything that came after.

    #264416
    Dave
    Participant

    Red Dwarf was travelling for three million years but it also isn’t the fastest vessel in the universe. Over that length of time even an only slightly faster ship could get much further out into space than Red Dwarf did. So I don’t think it’s outrageous that quite a few managed it.

    #264419
    pfm
    Participant

    They all seem to know of simulants/ eugenics/ genetically engineered stuff when they encounter it, so maybe GELFs and simulants got shot off into Deep Space before Red Dwarf did.

    Kryten is the one with the most knowledge on these subjects. It can be assumed the rest of the crew learnt from him. Also, Holly gathered much information while traversing the galaxy, back in the day.

    #264421
    Ridley
    Participant

    Red Dwarf was travelling for three million years but it also isn’t the fastest vessel in the universe. Over that length of time even an only slightly faster ship could get much further out into space than Red Dwarf did. So I don’t think it’s outrageous that quite a few managed it.

    I know the homosapienoids of teh films were to have hunted them all down but it would be nice if the Dwarfers bumped the derelict of a sister ship at some point.

    #264423
    RunawayTrain
    Participant

    There’s nothing to say humans developed the tech on Earth either. Once humans went extinct the sentient life forms are still capable of running and maintaining ships, stations, etc. if they are functioning well themselves; even more so if they have somehow developed beyond their original programming (likely out of necessity).

    #264451
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    The real question is why Red Dwarf was consistently travelling away from Earth for the whole 3 million year gap, implicitly at top speed?

    It’s probable this exact question has already been asked and discussed – maybe even by me – on earlier pages, but I’m too lazy to check.

    #264452

    Holly just high tails it out of the solar system and then forgets to stop

    #264460

    I think it’s been discussed before, and it’s usually agreed that either coming to a stop or parking in orbit around a moon, while constantly broadcasting a quarantine message, would have been infinitely wiser. Given the technological breakthroughs humanity came up with in the interim – psi-moons, holoships, time machines, teleporters – you’d think it would have been easy to get Lister out of stasis without subjecting him to radiation poisoning, or even to clear the ship of radiation. Lister might have missed a few hundred or thousand years of culture, but at least he wouldn’t have been on his own.

    #264467
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Cadmium has a half life ranging from a couple of hours to 31 quintillion years so cadmium II must have hit the sweet spot of 3 million years.

    It’s best not to look into considering in Meltdown they find a working teleporter in Red Dwarf’s science labs, so they could have teleported him out of there and he’d have been exposed to a tiny amount of radiation, probably none if the chamber capable of insulating from time can hold out against a bit of radiation for the femtosecond of time between the stasis field being deactivated and getting teleported out.

    Even if they waited a few years to be sure the matter paddle was safe, still better than 3 million years and the rest of your life adrift in deep space.

    I like to think it’s evidence of just how shite the JMC and Holly are, and that nothing was really fit for purpose even before the accident and the 3 million years of going senile.

    #264471

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, what is a mining ship doing with an experimental science lab on it anyway?

    I mean, given the fact they’re also a prison transport, and we never see any miners, I’m willing to bet Red Dwarf is actually a front for JMC for something else.

    #264472
    RunawayTrain
    Participant

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, what is a mining ship doing with an experimental science lab on it anyway?

    I mean, given the fact they’re also a prison transport, and we never see any miners, I’m willing to bet Red Dwarf is actually a front for JMC for something else.

    To see if previously unknown / unidentified objects they encounter are worth mining?

    Having an entire prison wing is weird though!

    (Also yay for formatting options showing up on mobile again! Thanks, whoever implemented that :D )

    #264473
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    A teleporter is mining adjacent, it’d save on shuttle craft if they could teleport ore and equipment.

    Perhaps the JMC were hard up and had to rent out room to make up costs with the penal colony, a healthy wedge from HMPS for a few decks. Maybe the science labs were sponsored too, “cheap low gravity environment available, access to exotic materials from Sol’s main asteroid belt, contact Derek at the JMC Building for more information”

    #264475
    Warbodog
    Participant

    The bazookoids are justified as mining tools in the novels. Red Dwarf does some mining in the book too, which is extremely satisfying. I’m surprised I can read my copy when the pages are all stuck together like that.

    #264479
    Ridley
    Participant

    The real question is why Red Dwarf was consistently travelling away from Earth for the whole 3 million year gap, implicitly at top speed?

    Holly forgot to stop is the sitcom answer, JMC getting rid of the evidence is the sci-fi answer.

    #264487
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    JMC getting rid of the evidence is the sci-fi answer.

    Now I can’t stop thinking about a Red Dwarf / Half-Life mashup.

    “Arnold doesn’t need to hear all this, he’s a highly trained technician. We’ve assured Captain Hollister that nothing will go wrong.”

    #264488

    JMC run the ship and employ the miners, but the whole thing is owned and financed by the Space Corps, who also use parts of the ship to do their Space Corpsy stuff.
    I guess.

    #264491

    I’ve always thought of the Space Corp as an international body that regulates space flight, to hold any position of power etc you have to pass tests that they set to hold officer/managerial ranks and then after that you can be employed by any private company or continue on into some sort of military service (which is what Rimmer’s brothers did).

    So sort of a public/private partnership that is similar too but not quite like the merchant navy.

    #264492
    Rudolph
    Participant

    I always thought of it as JMC owned Red Dwarf and were basically something like BP or Exxon Mobil. But the crew were all Space Corps, who are like the Merchant Navy.

    #264496
    pfm
    Participant

    I always thought of it as JMC owned Red Dwarf and were basically something like BP or Exxon Mobil. But the crew were all Space Corps, who are like the Merchant Navy.

    I like to think of the JMC as Dwarf’s own answer to ‘the company’, whether this being Weyland-Yutani from Alien (huge influence), or even the real East India Company of old.

    #264497
    Warbodog
    Participant

    I like to think of the JMC as Dwarf’s own answer to ‘the company’, whether this being Weyland-Yutani from Alien (huge influence), or even the real East India Company of old.

    I watched Outland (1981) when Paul Muller recommended it on here, definitely an influence on that background and Jupiter mining generally.

    #264498
    pfm
    Participant

    I like to think of the JMC as Dwarf’s own answer to ‘the company’, whether this being Weyland-Yutani from Alien (huge influence), or even the real East India Company of old.

    I watched Outland (1981) when Paul Muller recommended it on here, definitely an influence on that background and Jupiter mining generally.

    YES. As far as Peter Hyams’ sci-fi films go, Outland always seems to sneak under the radar, with Capricorn One and 2010 (the 2001 follow-up) being much more well-known. The overall look and feel of Outland owes a great deal to Alien, with some Dark Star thrown in for good measure. To say it wasn’t a huge influence on Red Dwarf, for various reasons (Jupiter mining, Io, no aliens, High Noon/Western themes in space, amongst others) would be a huge understatement.

    #264499
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Couple of Red Dwarf connections with Outland, Bill Pearson worked on it, and the spacesuits from series I were from Outland.

    Video of Bill talking about it

    #264507
    Jenuall
    Participant

    JMC getting rid of the evidence is the sci-fi answer.

    Now I can’t stop thinking about a Red Dwarf / Half-Life mashup.
    “Arnold doesn’t need to hear all this, he’s a highly trained technician. We’ve assured Captain Hollister that nothing will go wrong.”

    “I never thought I’d see a Cadmium II explosion, let a lone create one!”

    #264515
    pfm
    Participant

    Couple of Red Dwarf connections with Outland, Bill Pearson worked on it, and the spacesuits from series I were from Outland.

    Video of Bill talking about it

    Heavenly.

    #264520
    JEZZMUND
    Participant

    Couple of Red Dwarf connections with Outland … Video of Bill talking about it

    Interesting bit with Martin talking about being able to polish up Zinc plate primer – never occurred to me before.

    #264521
    Phil
    Participant

    Now I can’t stop thinking about a Red Dwarf / Half-Life mashup.

    “We don’t go to Rimmerworld.”

    #264524

    I think a first-person shooter set in the Red Dwarf universe, with a section set on Rimmerworld would be great fun.

    #264530
    Jenuall
    Participant

    Great idea except the first time the player fires a heat seeking bazookoid shot into an empty room their going to be in trouble!

    #264531
    Ridley
    Participant

    Or they could use the teleporter.

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