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  • #264915
    Warbodog
    Participant

    He probably worked it out at some point and Rimmer failed to deny it convincingly, like he sussed ‘Bonehead.’

    #264920
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    Wonder if the AR suite games are as ethical as ours, ie would you get to experience terror bombing and such in the WW2 simulation game Kryten borrows the tank from?

    #264926
    Jenuall
    Participant

    What is current under tension?

    #264928

    What is current under tension?

    a raisin in a vice

    #264950
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    What is current under tension?

    Seems it’s just a strange outdated way of saying something has power going through it, so the end of what Rimmer’s trying to work out would be current under tension is equal?… to voltage over the resistance.

    If he doesn’t know that he should stick to dried fruit.

    #264956
    Jenuall
    Participant

    Well now I’m just hungry

    #265009
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    the AR might have safety protocols, like the holodecks of Trek.

    #265042
    Jenuall
    Participant

    Amazing how often those safety protocols got disabled. It was almost as frequent an event as “transporter accident”. Which is all fortunate really as otherwise we’d just be left with episodes about people sexing it up with ghosts

    #265055
    Moonlight
    Participant

    Now I’m asking Jeff Martin if he remembers anything interesting that happened during that time. I’m sleuthing.

    It appears my quest ends here. He never got back to me. Although I have messaged Mike Reiss a bit more, and that’s pretty cool.

    #265070
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    I am now telling Jeff Martin *exactly* what he can do with his information about anything interesting that happened during that time.

    #265161
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    What would Jeff Martin do with a life-time supply of chocolate?

    #265165

    What would Jeff Martin do with a life-time supply of chocolate?

    Shove it up his bum.

    #265433
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    Does Mr Burns end up having the Rolling Stones killed?

    #265434
    Warbodog
    Participant

    He’s been putting ointment on them, I think. A kind of lanolin-based ointment. That you rub in and… makes it alright.

    #265521
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    Ointment is what you need for when your head’s been cut off.

    #265522
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Mouth is open Nursie, should be shut.

    #265527
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    I took her to see India, AT THE OVAL!

    #265539
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Is the Rimmer song from Blue (the episode, not the boy band) based on an established/traditional melody? The verses bit. My wife’s been singing the tune without proper words, but she doesn’t know what it is, nor what Red Dwarf is, really (still thinks Cat’s a vampire).

    #265543

    Is the Rimmer song from Blue (the episode, not the boy band) based on an established/traditional melody? The verses bit. My wife’s been singing the tune without proper words, but she doesn’t know what it is, nor what Red Dwarf is, really (still thinks Cat’s a vampire).

    It’s kinda circus music isn’t it, with a bit of a military feel to it too. Which is likely deliberate.

    So I don’t think it is anything in particular but it’s drawing on a lot of generic but broadly known influences.

    #265549
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    It was based on melodies originally whistled by Doug Naylor.

    #265970
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    We obviously don’t see Kryten’s full history lesson on screen in tikka because early in the episode Lister knows little of Jeff Kay because it wasn’t covered at his high school but later when confronting Kennedy, Lister knows that death will make Kennedy a progressive icon.

    #265971
    Hamish
    Participant

    Considering how much time passes for them in Tikka, it is not unreasonable to assume that discussing Kennedy’s impact was a subject of conversation.

    #265976
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    Considering how much time passes for them in Tikka, it is not unreasonable to assume that discussing Kennedy’s impact was a subject of conversation.

    Perhaps after Rimmer, Kryten, and the Cat finished beating Lister to a pulp at the end of the episode :)

    #266083

    In series VII Starbug is 212% bigger, but is that just internally? Has it become a TARDIS of sorts?

    because externally it appears the same size, and the internal geography doesn’t make sense. There’s that room the leads off the midsection where the airlock/exit used to be that clearly wouldn’t fit without an extension to the exterior.

    #266084
    Dave
    Participant

    Has it become a TARDIS of sorts?

    It’s the only way any of it can make any sense, and even then not much. It’s one of the weirdest things the show has ever done, for me. It’s just baffling.

    #266085

    Has it become a TARDIS of sorts?

    It’s the only way any of it can make any sense, and even then not much. It’s one of the weirdest things the show has ever done, for me. It’s just baffling.

    I’d happily accept “this reality has become unstable and there are anomalies to cope with the paradox” or whatever the exact line is …. if the rest of the series, hell even the rest of the episode, had had any such instability, anomalous, paradox-y shite going on.

    #266088
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    “Sirs – the altercation with our future selves caused dimensional anomalies which have expanded the cargo deck by 212%! We should ascertain that the new structure is stable.”

    “Oh, right, the dimensional anomalies! Are those also why the Kochanski in my memory is now played by Chloe Annett?”

    #266089
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    In series VII Starbug is 212% bigger, but is that just internally? Has it become a TARDIS of sorts?

    because externally it appears the same size, and the internal geography doesn’t make sense. There’s that room the leads off the midsection where the airlock/exit used to be that clearly wouldn’t fit without an extension to the exterior.

    It suggests that in the episode doesn’t it?

    That it’s localised to a specific part of the ship.

    Although they did scale it externally too, by making the windscreen smaller, suggesting the whole thing is considerably bigger. No measurements involved but I’d say the III-VI transparent window takes up twice as much space as the VII Starbug window, but then they threw that away when it crashed in BITR and they didn’t continue with the small windows.

    #266090
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Yes, definitely seems to be TARDIS science at work purely to justify Duct Soup and a couple of wanky location shots in Tikka with the crew just…walking slowly.

    Ace’s ship obviously gets a smaller redesign in Stoke but the original version was still a one-man cockpit affair. It and Starbug are more or less a similar size in Dimension Jump, while in Stoke, it can fit snugly in Starbug’s ridiculous hanger bay (where is the entrance to that?)

    #266092
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    On the subject of Ace (yet again for this thread), was it explained why he acts like he already knows the Dwarfers (“I told you I’d be back for breakfast” etc.) even though it’s later made clear that he’s not the same man they met in Dimension Jump?

    I could check this for myself, but, you know, Stoke Me A Clipper.

    #266093

    On the subject of Ace (yet again for this thread), was it explained why he acts like he already knows the Dwarfers (“I told you I’d be back for breakfast” etc.) even though it’s later made clear that he’s not the same man they met in Dimension Jump?

    I could check this for myself, but, you know, Stoke Me A Clipper.

    I’ve often thought about this. Presumably when he jumps to a dimension he has been to before the computer gives him a run down of past adventures so he knows what a previous version of him has done.

    He always says his “smoke me a kipper” line, so running into people a version of Ace has seen before makes sense for him to say “told you I’d be back for breakfast”

    Also, he has likely met other versions of the crew that are similar enough that he knows their personalities.

    #266095
    Dave
    Participant

    Yeah it’s a fair bet that if they’ve met a version of Ace previously then he will have probably indicated to them that he will return in time for the first meal of the day.

    #266096

    STARDISbug really feels like Doug having his cake and eating it, wanting to do the series in Starbug for whatever reason, but also wanting a ship with miles of vents and a landing bay and such. If he was going to bring back the time drive, it would have made far more sense to have them return to the time and place of Red Dwarf’s disappearance, make a bootstrap paradox of them stealing it from themselves, and then have the rest of VII set on Red Dwarf, thus negating any need for dimensional anomalies at all. This would have also had the bonus of meaning VIII would have been very different.

    #266097
    Warbodog
    Participant

    I could check this for myself, but, you know, Stoke Me A Clipper.

    When fan reactions in other franchises seem ridiculously over the top, I remember how Stoke Me a Clipper felt when I was 11.

    #266098

    This isn’t really a question and is a bit more than mundane observation but fuck it it’s going here …

    Presumably McIntyre had to watch all in friends and colleague die horribly whilst he stood by unaffected but unable to do anything.

    He’s have then have had to have had a conversation with Holly about being switched off.

    Unless the accident shut him down. But that’s not as interesting to think about.

    #266099
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    I mentioned this before, but going by his “so if you’re more crucial to the mission than me and you die, I’ll kill ya!” line, it seems likely McIntyre would have been switched off in favour of a higher ranking crewmember (probably either Hollister or the most proficient tech person) automatically after the accident.

    Although… if post-accident the ship’s mission just becomes “keep Lister alive and well” and all potential hologrammic crewmembers are equally useless to that mission for the next 3 million years, then maybe McIntyre was left on and allowed to choose his fate after all.

    But either way, the part where he has to witness everyone dying must have still happened.

    #266100
    Dave
    Participant

    Whether it was McIntyre or another higher ranking crewmember, do you think they kept on for three million years until Lister was about to come out and then they got switched out for Rimmer?

    #266101

    Na not at all. I think only Rimmer has the sort of insecurity to want to remain left on as a hologram even if there is no-one around and nothing to do.

    If McIntyre survived the accident (i.e. it didn’t knock him offline or there wasn’t some automated system that shut him down) I can’t imagine he’d have wanted to stay switched on for long.

    In fact. The very fact Holly hurtles Red Dwarf into deep space at top speed without stopping rather than doing anything a little more sensible suggests that McIntyre probably wasn’t around as any officer would have likely made the suggestion to just park a safe distance away and send out a beacon warning people to stay away from the radiation or something similar

    #266102
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    On the subject of Ace (yet again for this thread), was it explained why he acts like he already knows the Dwarfers (“I told you I’d be back for breakfast” etc.) even though it’s later made clear that he’s not the same man they met in Dimension Jump?

    I think a deleted scene for Stoke reveals that the Ace is actually from a dimension that diverged from the events of Out of Time… so basically that Ace hasn’t been Ace for very long and met the original Ace during the events of Dimension Jump.

    #266103

    I’d genuinely be curious how many things in Red Dwarf can be explained by watching a deleted scene.

    #266104
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    In my head, accident happens and McIntyre is unaffected, Holly either says “sorry George, there’s been an accident, I need to deactivate you” or just does it.

    Then either Hollister is activated and does some really depressing stuff, recording messages to the dead’s family and to the JMC about the state of the ship and what happened, all while coming to terms with his own death, or holograms are altered not to have that trauma with software? Or Holly just spared him and did the warning message himself and cheesed it out of the solar system.

    #266105
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    It’s interesting how Infinity doesn’t address McIntyre’s fate post-accident after spending the first few chapters of the book explaining what holograms are.

    I mean, it’s a lot more elegant than The End, but he’s still a plot-device that’s swiftly forgotten about.

    #266106
    Dave
    Participant

    I imagine that McIntyre immediately regrets his “if you die, I’ll kill you” joke.

    #266107
    Ridley
    Participant

    When was George McIntyre turned off?

    *McIntyre’s corpse bounces off window* “That was George!”

    I’m funny.

    #266108
    RunawayTrain
    Participant

    Why does Lister have a toaster in their quarters? And not just any toaster, one that annoys him?

    #266111
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    In the early days, Lister had found it amusing, especially since it seemed to annoy Rimmer inordinately.

    #266118

    When was George McIntyre turned off?

    Sort of picking up from something that mentioned in that thread, about the whole resurrection of crew in series viii, presumably they were all built like Lister in Nanarchy, and like the ship shrank down to their proper size and shapes etc. But unconscious whilst it was happening as they evidently don’t have any memory of it.

    #266127

    Theory, Joe killed George when he found out his wife was having an affair with him, and George is trying to make light of it so as not to show any hard feelings as they all have to continue living and work together. Joe finds this incredibly amusing as he has had his revenge and won’t hold a grudge, but his wife is not happy she is living with a murderer that’s why she takes objection to his encouraging George’s humour.

    #266129
    Dave
    Participant

    Theory, Joe killed George when he found out his wife was having an affair with him, and George is trying to make light of it so as not to show any hard feelings as they all have to continue living and work together. Joe finds this incredibly amusing as he has had his revenge and won’t hold a grudge, but his wife is not happy she is living with a murderer that’s why she takes objection to his encouraging George’s humour.

    I think McIntyre was actually having the affair with Joe and that’s why his wife is so pissed off.

    #266130

    think McIntyre was actually having the affair with Joe and that’s why his wife is so pissed off.

    ooooh Matron!

    #266171

    I’m watching the Starbuggers series VI doc and regarding the Emmy for Gunmen Doug says he was in the edit so couldn’t go to the ceremony, so Rob and Bobby went.

    What was Doug editing because series VI would have aired by then obviously because one of its episodes was winning an award.

    Only thing I can think of is the Smeg Ups tape but I can’t imagine that isn’t something you can drag yourself away from for an award ceremony

    #266172
    Dave
    Participant

    10%ers possibly?

    #266173

    ah yeah that could be it.

    #266174
    Jenuall
    Participant

    When were the Emmy awards? Wonder if Rob was already contemplating walking out at that point?

    #266175
    clem
    Participant

    I thought it might have been 10%ers too but the first series finished in June 94, months before the International Emmys were held where Gunmen won. And series 2 wasn’t til 96.

    #266177
    Warbodog
    Participant

    I only know this video of the 1994 British Comedy Awards (with Doug tagging along) where Rob notably says “I hope we can do it again next year.”

    He says it’s the second award they won that week though…

    #266180

    I only know this video of the 1994 British Comedy Awards (with Doug tagging along) where Rob notably says “I hope we can do it again next year.”

    He says it’s the second award they won that week though…

    Interestingly the walk on music *not* the shows theme but another recording, audio book?

    #266182
    Spaceworm Jim
    Participant

    Yeah, sounds like the audiobook to me. Rob seems so nervous in that clip. He must hate giving acceptance speeches at comedy award shows so much he went and made The Strangerers.

    #266184

    Yeah, sounds like the audiobook to me. Rob seems so nervous in that clip. He must hate giving acceptance speeches at comedy award shows so much he went and made The Strangerers.

    If you don’t want to be the one giving the acceptance speech don’t be the only one in a white suit!

    #266185
    Spaceworm Jim
    Participant

    If you don’t want to be the one giving the acceptance speech don’t be the only one in a white suit!

    True, what was he thinking, a WHITE suit?

    I vaguely remember this coming up before, so this is maybe one for the Answered Questions thread, but the “not sleeping with her” bit he does at the end, is this a reference to something specific?

    EDIT: I don’t mean, “is he talking about sex?”

    #266186

    If you don’t want to be the one giving the acceptance speech don’t be the only one in a white suit!

    True, what was he thinking, a WHITE suit?
    I vaguely remember this coming up before, so this is maybe one for the Answered Questions thread, but the “not sleeping with her” bit he does at the end, is this a reference to something specific?
    EDIT: I don’t mean, “is he talking about sex?”

    I presume he is making a joke about how he could go on to mention absolutely everyone (but he won’t cos they only have a min) so he is saying “well I would go on to mention these people but I’m not sleeping with them”, jokingly suggesting he is sleeping with the cast and director etc.

    #266189
    Spaceworm Jim
    Participant

    Oh holy fuck, this is embarrassing. I guess my post really belongs in the “Jokes you don’t/didn’t get” thread. How could I have made such an elementary mistake??

    #266341
    Loathsome American
    Participant

    One of my “What would you do in a deliberate final episode of Red Dwarf?” ideas was always that the McIntyre hologram has been running continuously since the accident (the implication being Holly meant to turn him off but forgot to) and he’s gone insane and is the secret author of various misfortunes in the show; McIntyre was behind the nanobot shenanigans and various seeming accidents and malfunctions over the years. Maybe he is even the one who stoked religious conflict amongst the cats. And the last episode is Lister et al have to stop their ultimate secret enemy.

    This is as worked out as the idea gets because obviously it’s an extremely fan fictiony kind of idea and would probably not actually make a good or funny episode.

    #266400
    ChrisM
    Participant

    On the subject of Ace (yet again for this thread), was it explained why he acts like he already knows the Dwarfers (“I told you I’d be back for breakfast” etc.) even though it’s later made clear that he’s not the same man they met in Dimension Jump?

    I could check this for myself, but, you know, Stoke Me A Clipper.
    I’ve often thought about this. Presumably when he jumps to a dimension he has been to before the computer gives him a run down of past adventures so he knows what a previous version of him has done.
    He always says his “smoke me a kipper” line, so running into people a version of Ace has seen before makes sense for him to say “told you I’d be back for breakfast”
    Also, he has likely met other versions of the crew that are similar enough that he knows their personalities.

    He might even upload the predecessor’s memories, if possible. So in a sense he may well remember meeting them. This would be dependent on how much damage the predecessor’s light-bee suffered of course.

    One thing I’ve often wondered: is the light bee just the holographic projector for the hologram? I.e.in earlier episodes there was a complete holosuite room that contained computer(s) that ran Rimmer. That would suggest he is simulated there and there is a live stream between there and the holo-projector (be it the light-bee or light-cage, local ship holo-projectors*, etc).

    Or is the light bee a complete local computer system in itself that runs the simulation as well as projecting the hologram? Series 3 onwards would suggest this, although I suppose it’s possible Starbug, etc, had systems that ran and streamed the hologram to the light bee. That seems unlikely considering the various time jaunts that didn’t involve a craft. I.e. Tikka to Ride, Lemons, etc.

    *Holo-projectors aside from the cage and bee (and that gizmo that showed Rimmer’s father’s Message in The Beginning, but that served a different purpose) aren’t mentioned, but I’m assuming that before the upgrade to light-bee, they relied on various craft and high-tech buildings holographic emitters to project Rimmer. This would explain why a cage is needed during the death day party scene as it happened outside, but he can walk around as normal on Blue Midget, Starbug and the Nova 5, etc.

    #266401
    Dave
    Participant

    Yeah, I assume that the light bee contains everything needed to generate and project Rimmer. After all, in the very first light-bee episode they travel far from Red Dwarf and Starbug by teleporter and it isn’t a problem.

    I guess the way I think of it is that there’s still a holosuite that is the central point for generating holograms and storing all the data etc., but the light bees can just download updates from it as necessary, and without them it can continue to generate the current version of Rimmer indefinitely.

    #266402
    Dave
    Participant

    I’m assuming that before the upgrade to light-bee, they relied on various craft and high-tech buildings holographic emitters to project Rimmer. This would explain why a cage is needed during the death day party scene as it happened outside, but he can walk around as normal on Blue Midget, Starbug and the Nova 5, etc.

    Yeah I think that’s the implication.

    #266410

    In the books the light bee seems to be just a projector, with the actual data coming from the ship.

    In the show, it’s much more practical for the light bee to just be Rimmer’s computer brain as well as a projector. He can go as far as needs be from Red Dwarf and have new software transmitted straight to his light bee.

    #266411

    Ace Rimmer’s light bee remote in Stoke seems to wireless transfer data between light bees too, so I think it’s definitely the intention that the light bee, from series 4 onwards, is running the entire show in terms of Rimmer’s projection etc.

    #266413
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Crushing/zapping light bees is presented as if it (re-)kills holograms, and the end of Meltdown wouldn’t mean as much if Rimmer could just transfer to a new one (unless Holly ignored his pleas).

    #266415

    I suppose that makes Last Human work under the same rules as the TV series, while the first two novels, at least, have a different approach, most obvious in the black hole section of BTL.

    #266416
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    So in SMaC, Ace’s light bee is damaged, and that’s why he’s re-dying. But does this mean that light bees are just too rare in the RD universe for him to have a spare, or that Ace no longer has access to a computer that has a backup of his identity and would be able to restore him to a new light bee? I guess it makes sense that the Ace Rimmer ship wouldn’t have the same hologram capabilities as Red Dwarf, but given he must have had that tech available when he took over for Ace1, you’d think he would have tried to bring it with him.

    Related to that, something else just occurred to me… what if the reason Ace2 tracked down the Dwarfers wasn’t to recruit Rimmer as his successor at first? He would have been expecting them to be on Red Dwarf, right, so he might have been hoping to use the holo-suite and a spare light bee to save his own life. But when he realised that not only were they in Starbug, but Red Dwarf was lost, he had to quickly come to terms with his oncoming 2nd death, and change tack to trying to continue the Ace Rimmer legacy.

    #266417
    Warbodog
    Participant

    He would have been expecting them to be on Red Dwarf, right, so he might have been hoping to use the holo-suite and a spare light bee to save his own life.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if STARDISbug had a hologram projection suite of its own if the plot demanded it (or even if it didn’t).

    #266418
    Dave
    Participant

    Even as far back as Psirens Kryten is shown being able to boot up Rimmer from Starbug’s computer.

    #266419
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    I wouldn’t be surprised if STARDISbug had a hologram projection suite of its own if the plot demanded it (or even if it didn’t).

    Even as far back as Psirens Kryten is shown being able to boot up Rimmer from Starbug’s computer.

    I did remember Psirens as I was typing, but I figured that the ability to boot Rimmer using Starbug wouldn’t necessarily extend to being able to manage a database of multiple people and set up light bees from scratch. And you’d think that if they were able to do that, Rimmer might have suggested it after Ace confessed his hologram status and fatal injury.

    Alternatively, maybe they could have done it in theory but the damage to Ace’s light bee made it impossible to back up from, like its USB port was busted. That’s Occam’s razor, but just going with that and calling it a day is no fun.

    #266420

    what if the reason Ace2 tracked down the Dwarfers wasn’t to recruit Rimmer as his successor at first? He would have been expecting them to be on Red Dwarf, right, so he might have been hoping to use the holo-suite and a spare light bee to save his own life. But when he realised that not only were they in Starbug, but Red Dwarf was lost

    Presumably Wildfire would have been capable of finding and catching up with Red Dwarf had anyone bothered to think of that. I know we find out later that Red Dwarf is no longer “out there” but they, at this point, don’t know that.

    #266421
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    I buy that Wildfire could track Red Dwarf (in the alternate timeline where Red Dwarf was still in an identifiable form), but not that it could catch up to it in time.

    #266423

    Actually, thinking about it, Red Dwarf, with all its power, is only able to sustain one hologram. By shutting off all non-essential systems in Me², Holly was able to get the ship to sustain two holograms.

    And now we’re expected to believe something the size of a shuttlecock can sustain a hologram and can be booted by Starbug’s onboard computer?

    #266424
    Jenuall
    Participant

    Like a great many things it’s better to try not to read any logic or sense into the changing nature of holograms in the RD universe!

    #266425

    It sort of depends if we believe Red Dwarf just trundles along really slowly, or actually has some kick to it’s engines and is a pretty speedy beast.

    #266426
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Actually, thinking about it, Red Dwarf, with all its power, is only able to sustain one hologram. By shutting off all non-essential systems in Me², Holly was able to get the ship to sustain two holograms.

    And now we’re expected to believe something the size of a shuttlecock can sustain a hologram and can be booted by Starbug’s onboard computer?

    Starbug is a scavenging vehicle though after the accident, so it’s not necessarily the same technology, and considering Red Dwarf the ship is a dinosaur in universe, it could just be a newer vessel with better tech.

    #266427

    I think given that the original limitation was clearly built in to explain why there is only one hologram post accident, and it’s explained in such a way that the ship doesn’t have the capability of powering more than one. And then that from s03 onwards that technology has clearly changed. From ship/cage projection to light bee, we have to assume that everything post s03 is at least much newer technology Kryten picked up at some point and used to upgrade Rimmer.

    Obviously doesn’t explain why then you couldn’t have two holograms, ship generated and light bee generated … or even multiple light bees … but eh, it’ll never be completely reconcilable.

    #266428
    RunawayTrain
    Participant

    From ship/cage projection to light bee, we have to assume that everything post s03 is at least much newer technology Kryten picked up at some point and used to upgrade Rimmer.

    Obviously doesn’t explain why then you couldn’t have two holograms, ship generated and light bee generated … or even multiple light bees … but eh, it’ll never be completely reconcilable.

    In this case, I reckon Rimmer would have threatened that if they ran a hologram of anyone with a higher ranking, he’d change it (or however many) into versions of himself ;D I think he learned from Me² but is still so petty he’d have gone ahead with it anyway, because it was hell for everyone else as well.

    Would they have thought to have another hologram or few? Extra company, sure, but was there anyone Lister and Rimmer could agree on? Even if there were somehow, I still think rank would have been Rimmer’s sticking point.

    It would also be possible that Holly vetoed the idea even if the others wanted someone else around.

    .
    Edit: I do rather like the idea of the holosuite* being the command centre with lightbees getting their updates and things there.
    *No, that’s DS9 isn’t it? Whatever they called it on Red Dwarf, as if I didn’t just read it earlier. Oh no, I’m not the only one to call it that. Phew.

    .
    Edit 2: Oh, I missed this

    Crushing/zapping light bees is presented as if it (re-)kills holograms, and the end of Meltdown wouldn’t mean as much if Rimmer could just transfer to a new one (unless Holly ignored his pleas).

    Interesting. There could be a techy explanation for this (I’m thinking like when you delete a file and it syncs to delete the file wherever else it’s stored) but I don’t know if that would make sense or why they’d set it up like that. The holograms don’t have the full human experience anyway so why put the possibility of re-death? Or is it some sort of bug that’s never been fixed?

    #266429

    Obviously doesn’t explain why then you couldn’t have two holograms, ship generated and light bee generated … or even multiple light bees … but eh, it’ll never be completely reconcilable.

    In this case, I reckon Rimmer would have threatened that if they ran a hologram of anyone with a higher ranking, he’d change it (or however many) into versions of himself ;D I think he learned from Me² but is still so petty he’d have gone ahead with it anyway, because it was hell for everyone else as well.
    Would they have thought to have another hologram or few? Extra company, sure, but was there anyone Lister and Rimmer could agree on? Even if there were somehow, I still think rank would have been Rimmer’s sticking point.
    It would also be possible that Holly vetoed the idea even if the others wanted someone else around.
    .
    Edit: I do rather like the idea of the holosuite* being the command centre with lightbees getting their updates and things there.
    *No, that’s DS9 isn’t it? Whatever they called it on Red Dwarf, as if I didn’t just read it earlier.

    Hologram simulation suite is what you’re looking for.

    And excellent hypothesis, if it wasn’t for the back in Back to Earth Rimmer questions the Katerina as to how she can exist when Red Dwarf can only sustain one hologram – the answer of course being, she is a hallucination.

    #266430
    RunawayTrain
    Participant

    Hologram simulation suite is what you’re looking for.

    And excellent hypothesis, if it wasn’t for the back in Back to Earth Rimmer questions the Katerina as to how she can exist when Red Dwarf can only sustain one hologram – the answer of course being, she is a hallucination.

    Ah thanks.

    Oh damn, stupid BtE. Who made that canon anyway?! (I jest, I jest.)

    #266431
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Would they have thought to have another hologram or few? Extra company, sure, but was there anyone Lister and Rimmer could agree on? Even if there were somehow, I still think rank would have been Rimmer’s sticking point.
    It would also be possible that Holly vetoed the idea even if the others wanted someone else around.

    The scene in Holoship where they interview holograms is useful for confirming that no one else wants to be brought back (except Lister). That’s before they had hard light though, which would be less of a living dead nightmare existence.

    #266439

    It is interesting that it is a wholly unintended part of Rimmer’s character that he would grab at the chance of being a hologram post death, when everyone else is gone. He is just bitterly self important enough to want that. The fact that he wants to be left on in Future Echos even speaks to this.

    Though how funny would I have been if in Balance of Power Lister asks Holly why he brought Rimmer back, and Holly has to tell him no-one else wanted to exist as a hologram living with just Lister 3 million years from home.

    #266458
    Loathsome American
    Participant

    I also assume Holly exercised some veto power over who could be brought back as a hologram, within the parameters of trying to find a suitable companion for Lister. Not Kochanski, because he would just obsess over her; not Petersen or any of his actual friends, because they’d be a bad influence; not Hollister or anyone really important, because Lister would bristle too much under someone who had any claim to actual authority over him.

    #267646
    RunawayTrain
    Participant

    Not sure if this has been asked already, but how do they know the triplicated strawberries (and therefore
    any triplicated items) had a limited lifespan? I’ve not watched the deleted scenes for a while so I can’t remember if anything was cut that explained or showed it.

    #267647
    Dave
    Participant

    That dialogue always implied to me that they had done earlier triplicator experiments (maybe with simpler, non-organic stuff) before the strawberry.

    #267651

    What’s more curious is how early on their explaining how it could solve all of their supply issues and yet don’t think to mention they’d have to solve the “only lasts an hour” problem.

    #267654
    Unrumble
    Participant

    Probably been asked already, but if Legion is determined to keep them from leaving, why does he do nothing to stop Kryten knocking everyone out, when presumably he would have arrived at the same conclusion, possessing their combined knowledge/intellects?

    #267655
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    What’s more curious is how early on their explaining how it could solve all of their supply issues and yet don’t think to mention they’d have to solve the “only lasts an hour” problem.

    Stasis? I suppose that’s a question for all their supplies really, the cats could get to them so they’re obviously not in a giant suspended animation chamber, but they still have fresh food after 3 million years so they must be in suspended animation.

    #267656

    Yes, him standing there watching it all – even taking his mask off in time to see his face changing – has always been very clunky.

    Honestly, given the fact they have nothing to live for on Red Dwarf, staying on Legion’s space station with an additional person for company, the holosuite and a seemingly great supplies situation seems like a no brainer.

    #267657

    Yes, him standing there watching it all – even taking his mask off in time to see his face changing – has always been very clunky.

    Honestly, given the fact they have nothing to live for on Red Dwarf, staying on Legion’s space station with an additional person for company, the holosuite and a seemingly great supplies situation seems like a no brainer.

    As Kryten (?) points out though, as nice as it all is they are still prisoners. They have no freedom. And I think that’s important.

    It would be a bit like quarantine, knowing they can’t leave if they want to would drive them nuts.

    They have no idea how their lives will go if they go off in search of Red Dwarf. But settling on Legion’s space station seals their fait. They no there is nothing new going to happen etc.

    Nozick (yes I’m going to get all wanky and philosophical now) devised the thought experiment of the Experience Machine. A bit like Better Than Life really. If you could choose to experience nothing but the best, everything that makes you happy, the ultimate pleasures, would you choose to plug in?

    Flip the question around, and if you were told your entire life was in this machine and it was a lie (sort of like the Matrix) would you choose to leave?

    Cutting through a lot of the crap, Nozich’s says you probably wouldn’t plug in full time and would definitely choose to leave if you were told of it.

    Whilst pleasure is may be valuable, it isn’t good final moral value on it’s own. As with BTL, what’s the point of being given everything you want if you know it not to be real. And where is the value of having pleasure if you have no pain (or disappointment or struggle etc) to weigh it against.

    Legion offers the illusion of everything Lister et al could want, but that isn’t really true. It takes away Lister’s freedom, he doesn’t have Kochanski, he doesn’t have a goal or a purpose (get back to Earth). No matter how flimsy his objectives are, he has them and it is what drives him and keeps him going. To just stop would be to accept fait and give up, and that isn’t Lister.

    #267658
    Dave
    Participant

    What’s more curious is how early on their explaining how it could solve all of their supply issues and yet don’t think to mention they’d have to solve the “only lasts an hour” problem.

    Stasis? I suppose that’s a question for all their supplies really, the cats could get to them so they’re obviously not in a giant suspended animation chamber, but they still have fresh food after 3 million years so they must be in suspended animation.

    Either way, even if you could freeze the copies in stasis food wouldn’t be much good if it popped out of existence an hour after unfreezing. You’d eat the food and then after an hour you’d feel like you’d had nothing at all.

    A bit like McDonalds.

    #267660
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Living in the lap of luxury through necessary socialising with a tyrant might really change the guys, but there’s no way of knowing haaaaang on. I think I’ve had a mundane observation.

    #267661

    I totally understand the psychology behind it. I suppose, after everything they’ve been through in the previous few years, and being stuck on Starbug with almost no supplies, I think I would stop with Legion.

    Why didn’t Legion just sabotage Starbug if he didn’t want them to leave? He probably could have sent it out on autopilot and stranded them there.

    #267695
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    What’s more curious is how early on their explaining how it could solve all of their supply issues and yet don’t think to mention they’d have to solve the “only lasts an hour” problem.

    Have you heard of the 5 second rule? For triplicated food, it means that if you eat it within 5 seconds of it being created, it’s no longer affected by entropy.

    Probably been asked already, but if Legion is determined to keep them from leaving, why does he do nothing to stop Kryten knocking everyone out, when presumably he would have arrived at the same conclusion, possessing their combined knowledge/intellects?

    I have a few ideas about this. The first is that Legion is more of a gestalt entity than a hive mind. Smooshing 4 brains into 1 brain isn’t necessarily going to yield the same results as having all 4 brains working independently. Some things will be different, and some things will be lost as well as gained.

    The second is that concocting plans and making decisions is driven not just by your cognitive abilities and your knowledge/memories but by the circumstances you’re currently in. Legion is a copy of all 4 characters combined, but he still knows he isn’t actually them, and that he’s the jailer not the prisoner. Legion possesses the tools necessary to second-guess their plan, but because he isn’t in the emotional state of wanting to escape, his brain isn’t driven to think of it like they do.

    And the third idea is that because Legion has everyone’s memories and personalities all jumbled up in that noggin of his, he feels empathy for them which on some level is keeping him from acting to stop them as forcefully and decisively as he could.

    #267704
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Have you heard of the 5 second rule? For triplicated food, it means that if you eat it within 5 seconds of it being created, it’s no longer affected by entropy.

    Superb. Although where I come from, it’s a 10 second rule. 5 seconds is for the landed gentry and soft southern bastards.

    #267707
    Jenuall
    Participant

    Soft southern bastard here: it was always the 10 second rule around our way. And lets face it nobody ever really paid that much attention to it either way!

    On topic: What was Petersen doing in the drive room when the accident happened? Lister licks his dust in The End but nobody questions what he was doing there! Also on that note, if him and Kochanski both also died in the drive room then why don’t we see them in the flashback sequence in Me²?

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