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  • #258395
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    ” I wouldn’t cancel anybody over thinking crossdressing was funny 30 years ago,”

    It was still bigoted and insensitive against the gender diverse thirty years ago in the 1990s. We rightly don’t give people of the past a pass on being racist or sexist just because they were able to get away with calling buxom women “jiggles” and black men “boy”.

    #258396
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    This is true, but I think what Ben was getting at was how much and how quickly attitudes have changed in a relatively short space of time. Barbara in The League of Gentlemen is an absolute abomination, but nobody batted an eyelid at the time. Kryten being classified as a woman simply because he doesn’t have a penis manages to be incredibly offensive to trans people, non-binary people and cis women, which hardly gets a mention. You wouldn’t get programmes like There’s Something About Miriam any more, full stop. Hayley in Coronation Street was a big positive factor in educating people and changing attitudes, but even then, if you were casting that role today, you wouldn’t cast a cis woman, as undoubtedly brilliant in the part as Julie Hesmondhalgh was.

    I guess what I’m getting at is that the intent behind something is important. You’re right that things shouldn’t get a free pass because they happened in the past, they should still be questioned and held up for criticism, but what’s also important is how the perpetrators feel now. The League of Gents went some way to address the Barbara issue in the recent reunion specials, for example. On a different but similar theme, Matt Lucas has acknowledged and apologised for the dodgier elements of Little Britain and Come Fly With Me, which doesn’t absolve the offensive things they did completely, but the fact that he realises where he went wrong and regrets it makes me feel more at ease with calling myself a fan of his. (Walliams is still a dick, though) Conversely, while there’s very little wrong with Father Ted, Big Train or Black Books in terms of offensive attitudes, I wouldn’t describe myself as a fan of Graham Linehan any more, because he’s a bigoted cunt.

    I guess ultimately, in terms of our favourite show, whenever Red Dwarf wanders into dodgy territory now, it’s far worse than when things from 21-32 years ago seem dodgy in retrospect. As it is, the stuff in Series VIII results in an eye roll rather than a vitriolic rant. I’m far more angry about Timewave than I ever was about Series VIII, partly because I didn’t realise the potential for offence in 1999, and nor would the vast vast majority of the viewing public, but by 2016/7, everyone involved should absolutely know better.

    #258398
    Offline
    Member

    That’s what baffles me about Doug when it comes to Timewave. As much as it wasn’t its intent, Red Dwarf through the original run did explore a lot of issues through the lens of comedy in very well-handled ways. Yes there were clunkers like Kryten being classified as a woman for a few cheap visual gags but overall, they got it right in terms of the writing and the approach.

    But Timewave? I mean, did everyone just read it, cast and crew alike and all laugh away without the merest thought of maybe this ain’t kosher? Doug is the big boss at the end of the day but there’s a history of him actively listening to everyone around him during every stage of production. Nobody said maybe this is a bit shallow here, a bit dated there, a touch offensive at this point?

    Strange episode, strange script, strange everything, I wonder how Doug feels about Timewave in retrospective.

    #258399

    Barbara from the League of Gents is an interesting one, as she’s the most well-rounded, sympathetic character living in the village, and the core idea of the joke is cabbies talk too much about stuff you don’t really want to know, so what if that was something very personal and, at the time, seen as a bit weird / almost taboo. But at no point are we invited to think of her as a freak in the way we are everybody else in Royston Vasey.
    But then the way it’s shown on screen totally undermines it by cutting to shots of hairy legs in a dress with raucous audience laughter and such. I think her character could actually exist in a much more respectful way with relatively few tweaks to the script and a much more sympathetic translation from page to screen.
    I still haven’t seen the reunion episodes, but I’m curious to see how she’s handled in them.

    #258401
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    I do believe you have to judge something by the standards of its time, rather than try to apply modern attitudes to it – one would like to believe that their moral standards are an immutable and steadfast part of their identity, but they’re just as much a product of your environment and upbringing, and there’s no way to truly say how you would view things were you born in 1940s Texas, for example, so to morally grandstand over somebody who was is extremely questionable. It is important not to give things “a pass” for being old, true, and it’s fine to dislike something because it makes you feel uncomfortable, but essentially what Ian said is spot on, as well. Unfortunately, making fun of men dressing as woman was just something countless comedies did in the 90s (Friends veers directly into transphobia with the character of Chandler’s dad, which I find much more objectionable now than I did when I watched it in 2003).

    #258402
    Dave
    Participant

    Yeah I feel like we’re all more or less on the same page here. Obviously comedy, like any art, is to some extent a product of its time and will reflect the general attitudes and moral standpoints of the day.

    That doesn’t excuse jokes or lines or characters that are by today’s standards clearly “a bit dodgy”, but it might help us to understand them and the context in which they were made.

    But even then there can be quite a spectrum in terms of how unkindly or sympathetically these things are presented.

    In general I think the first six series of Red Dwarf are pretty good in this area and most elements that could risk offending are justified by the setting and characters – eg.most examples of objectification of women are rooted in the perspectives of the all-male crew, and even criticised stuff like Parallel Universe is mostly ok for me as again it’s heavily tied to the characters.

    There are odd lines here and there that might now feel a bit tone-deaf but by and large it’s a show with a pretty decent moral compass.

    Which is why the broader and less thoughtful gags in VII and particularly VIII clang so badly, and why the Dave-era clangers like the slag line and the Chinese whispers stuff were (rightly) singled out for criticism.

    But even given those, Timewave is another level of tone-deafness. At best I think it’s misguided, but really it’s more than that, and it feels baffling that nobody stepped in and said “hang on a minute…” at some point.

    #258410
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    How does J. Edgar Hoover become President in the alt-history in Tikka to Ride? Johnson was the vice-president. If Kennedy is removed from office Johnson would become President. Head of the FBI is not in the chain of command.

    #258411
    Toxteth O-Grady
    Participant

    They never said that Hoover assumed the position of president as a result of Kennedy’s impeachment.
    In fact, they state that he was elected – and that he been forced to run for president by the Mafia.

    So presumably Johnson served the remainder of Kennedy’s term, but then lost the subsequent 1964 election to Hoover, who by this point had left the FBI in favour of running for the presidency.
    Simples.

    #258413
    Dave
    Participant

    Who chose the replacement music over George McIntyre’s funeral that’s used on the Netflix version?

    #258415
    si
    Participant

    If Rimmer’s duplicate in Me² is projected using Rimmer’s disc (as hidden in Kochanski’s box [fnaar]), what’s projecting Rimmer?

    #258416
    Dave
    Participant

    I always presumed you didn’t need the disc running full time, you just loaded the latest backup from the disc and then it could run. Like installing something from a disc.

    So it’s Rimmer’s disc, and it loads the same saved version that originally appeared when Holly first resurrected Rimmer.

    (Although I don’t know how Rimmer-2 knows to say the “he did warn you” line.)

    #258417

    Why did they never load another hologram after the events of Me²?

    #258418
    Dave
    Participant

    Hold on, we did that one barely a month ago.

    #258419
    Offline
    Member

    Is Craig Charles a rapist?

    #258420
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    And given he mentions in The Man In The Rubber Mask” about “understanding the issues” about why women under report rape, what convinced BobbyLllew about Charles’s innocence?

    #258423
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    Yes, this seems an appropriate way for this thread to develop. Shush now.

    #258448
    Offline
    Member

    Sorry, chief, I meant it flippantly but it does look rather tricky.

    #258909
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    Why are both Kennedy and Nixon still taught about in schools in Lister and Rimmer’s era?

    Surely people with a greater impact on the historical memory will have emerged in the three hundred years between now and then. There are plenty of English/Scots/British monarchs and American presidents who were well known in their own time but are now obscure outside specialst circles.

    #258910
    Dave
    Participant

    I dunno, we still get taught about Alexander the Great and Napoleon and Henry Tulip.

    #259042
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    “Henry Tulip”

    Ah, a Series One of Blackadder fan?

    I always wondered what Henry does after he takes power to Princess Leia of Hungary after Edmund and the rest die.

    #259378
    Dave
    Participant

    “You can take two suits and that’s it.”

    Why is Cat limited to such a small quantity of personal possessions in stasis, when Lister seems to have been able to preserve many more different outfits for himself during his own three million years?

    #259379
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Why do they have to take their clothes and possessions into Stasis with them when clearly everything else on the ship has managed to last 3 million years already? All of Lister’s clothes, the toaster, the furniture, everything.

    #259380
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    How does history buff Rimmer have a hole in his knowledge such that he confuses Christopher Columbus with Colombo?

    Why didn’t they just go into stasis after Future Echoes? Also, couldn’t they have just brought a light bee of Rimmer in there with them if he was afraid of being switched off?

    Why is Lister the focus of the Red Dwarf crew’s inquiry at the start of Series VIII when he’s the least big deal of that Starbug group, compared to say, a senior navigation officer as well as an android and evolved cat that shouldn’t really exist by the normal crew’s standards?

    Why did Kochanski’s hair change from the end of Nanarchy into Back in the Red? (Are we assuming nanobots?) (also, is it fair to even bring up Series VIII in this thread, since it’s basically shooting fish in a barrel?)

    If Lister is his own dad, how can there be an alternate Lister when the Inquisitor erases him from history?

    More to the point, if Lister’s his own dad with Kochanski, meaning 50% Lister and 50% Kochanski, but that 50% that’s Lister is itself 50% Kochanski, then how many iterations of the time loop will it take before he’s just effectively 100% Kochanski?

    Why does that shot out the cockpit window in the beginning of Marooned look so rubbish?

    Why don’t they go inside the cockpit once Starbug crashes in Marooned? Are we assuming it’s crushed beyond repair?

    How long did Gordon wait for Holly’s move in postal chess before he gave up?

    Why do they even still hang out with Rimmer after the shit he pulls in Bodyswap and Quarantine?

    Did nobody from the original crew seriously not stumble into the Stasis Leak just using the shower and wind up as white powder?

    Are we assuming Series VII-era Lister used the Time Drive to go back into the events of Stasis Leak as Future Lister, or has that timeline been averted somehow? And where were Future Cat and Kryten?

    When Holly decided to create Queeg to make a point, was that decision after he almost killed Lister with the yellow cable? Which is to say, was he trolling the whole time, or did he sincerely fuck up in that moment?

    Why did they decide to go back to pursue Red Dwarf when the Legion Station literally had everything they could ever need, both survival-wise and sanity-wise?

    #259381
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Rimmer is a pretend “history buff”, that’s just what he tells women, he’s just really into Napoleon and diesel engines

    Bringing the light bee in is a good point, bloody hell. You could have him on as well, he wouldn’t take up much space, being incorporeal (irl excuse: the light bee hadn’t been made up yet)

    Hollister just hates Lister and can get away with punishing him the most

    Alternate Lister is also his own dad

    Marooned shot looks rubbish because it was filmed handheld and you can’t do bluescreen properly like that

    Rimmer was mentally ill in Quarantine to be fair

    I have no idea what you’re talking about with Stasis Leak

    Regarding Legion: “imprisonment is an injury regardless of how you justify it” – Captain Picard

    #259382
    Dave
    Participant

    In Future Echoes they don’t go into stasis afterwards because they know they’re not meant to from seeing all the future echoes of their future selves. That’s the whole point, innit.

    As for Legion, in Series VI they’re worried about Holly having been kidnapped, and more broadly they want to get Red Dwarf back so that they can continue heading to Earth, and in Legion specifically they are asked to stay there until they die, so there are lots of reasons really.

    #259383
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    Good point, well made.

    #259384
    Dave
    Participant

    I have no idea what you’re talking about with Stasis Leak

    Presumably that the portal leading from future-Red-Dwarf to the showers goes both ways, and someone from the past could accidentally wander through it and kill themselves. Which I hadn’t ever really thought about.

    #259385
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    I meant the thing about Series VII-era Lister going back to the events of Stasis Leak with the Time Drive… I really don’t know what they mean

    #259386
    clem
    Participant

    Not going into stasis is explained in the novel like this: “Since Lister realized he couldn’t possibly go into stasis, on the grounds that the future echoes of himself had told him that he didn’t, he decided he wouldn’t, and instead he’d tried to make the best of a difficult situation.” Which seems like an ontological paradox to me, because where does Lister’s decision not to go into stasis originate?

    > Why don’t they go inside the cockpit once Starbug crashes in Marooned? Are we assuming it’s crushed beyond repair?

    After they’ve crashed and ascertained that they can’t take off, I don’t see why they’d go into the cockpit. It’s not necessarily “crushed beyond repair” – they just don’t need to be in there and would rather be in the midsection I suppose.

    #259387
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    deleted – just seen someone made the exact same point.

    #259388
    si
    Participant

    Why did Kochanski’s hair change from the end of Nanarchy into Back in the Red?

    Chloe Annett didn’t have a haircut.

    #259389
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    Regarding Stasis Leak, I’m referring to how Future Lister goes, “In five years time, you find another way to go back in time.” But then we never see this followed up on (which is fine, but still an unanswered question).

    If I’m not mistaken, seeing as Lister characterizes his adventuring as around six years when talking to Rimmer at the start of Series VIII, I always wondered, given what we know now, if Lister did end up going back to marry pre-accident Kochanski five years later, from which era of the show does that Future Lister hail from?

    Seeing as how in Series VII, they have a version of the Time Drive that lets them go anywhere & when, and seeing how even in Ouroboros, Lister at the end takes the time to close the time loop and drop off his baby self, one could possibly conclude that the Future Lister and Future Rimmer we see in Stasis Leak are actually Lister and Rimmer at the start of Series VII, at a point between Tikka to Ride and Stoke Me a Clipper since they’d have the newer Time Drive but before Rimmer left Starbug.

    Just generally referring to the unanswered question of “Did Lister ever become the Future Lister we see in Stasis Leak, even if offscreen?” Sorry for the confusion.

    Also, thanks for referring to the novel regarding not going into stasis. Makes sense. And regarding ontological paradoxes, I like Steven Moffat’s concept of those. He was talking about Heaven Sent and basically explained that the first go-around might have played out differently, but once the loop gets going, it “tightens” over repeated iterations until it finally settles into a consistent equilibrium. That for me makes every ontological paradox I see in media much more palatable.

    #259390

    Doesn’t Rimmer do his ‘Mayday’ bit from the cockpit in Marooned?

    As for Legion, I’ve wondered that myself: if I were them, I’d have chosen to stay there even before Legion tried to push it on them.

    When they had the time drive, why didn’t they go back to the time and place where they’d left Red Dwarf? Then they could have been the ones who stole it (more amusing than nanobots) and the time drive would have had a sensible purpose.

    #259391
    Dax101
    Participant

    Rimmer is not a history buff per say. he just looks up to men with authority. which is the history he knows the most about.

    #259393
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    I’m 90% certain that Rimmer’s mayday bit was at the workstations at the front corners of the midsection. Because he’s trying to send a signal as Lister comes back in from the snow in the background behind him.

    #259394

    When they had the time drive, why didn’t they go back to the time and place where they’d left Red Dwarf? Then they could have been the ones who stole it (more amusing than nanobots) and the time drive would have had a sensible purpose.

    Too busy going back and stealing curry supplies from themselves … and assassinating themselves, and *then* a POTUS. So ya know, busy lads. Probably had planned to use it to get Red Dwarf back and just forgot.

    #259395
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    I’m still ride-or-die for the “the future crew from Stasis Leak are the same future crew from Out of Time” theory. It just makes too much sense.

    #259396
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    Oh snap… I never even thought of that! You’ve convinced me. Thanks!

    #259397
    si
    Participant

    I’m still ride-or-die for the “the future crew from Stasis Leak are the same future crew from Out of Time” theory. It just makes too much sense.

    Rimmer’s got a moustache, for a start.

    #259398
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    and an H on his forehead.

    #259399
    pendo86
    Participant

    On the topic of Stasis Leak. Why does stepping into a leaky stasis booth bring them out into a shower room? Is the shower room directly behind the stasis booth? How has the stasis field leaked into the shower room? And why does it allow them to walk through walls?

    As the stasis leak preserves whatever it’s leaked into, presumably every time they step through the “rent in the space-time continuum” they should always appear at the same date and time (22nd March 2077) so why do they not bump into themselves and appear there at the exact same time as other versions?

    They travel to just before Lister has been put into stasis so why doesn’t he do as Rimmer tries to do and save himself? Why doesn’t he warn Hollister about the faulty drive plate and get them to evacuate the ship whilst stationed on Ganymede?

    #259410

    I suppose causality stops that from happening: if he hadn’t survived the accident, he wouldn’t have been able to go back and warn them. Also, he’s told in five years time they find another way to go back in time, although admittedly he finds that out a long time after he could have warned Hollister.

    Didn’t they mention in the recent Dwarfcast that someone did a list or Twitter thread or something where they had every time Lister could actually have gone back to Earth?

    #259411

    Why is there a raw sprout in Starbug in Marooned?

    #259413
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    Didn’t they mention in the recent Dwarfcast that someone did a list or Twitter thread or something where they had every time Lister could actually have gone back to Earth?

    Yarp, this tweet and the replies: https://twitter.com/ganymedetitan/status/1254812028188966914

    The universal explanation for why something predicted in one episode didn’t transpire in a future episode is that they’ve fucked around with their timeline so much (Timeslides, Out of Time, Tikka, Ouroboros) that the predicted futures have been rewritten.

    An even more universal explanation for anything you can’t reconcile is that Series III onwards takes place in a parallel universe to Series 1&2. It’s Multiverse 101.

    #259418

    ffs, it was two months ago and I even replied to one of the responses. What’s become of my memory?

    #259426
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    Yeah, the Fucked Up Timeline Theory (or FUTT). That actually makes perfect sense, and I remember hearing about that years ago, and on some level I’ve actually subscribed to a version of that, which best explains the changing centuries of their “present day” as well as the fluctuating Red Dwarf original crew count, Lister’s history with Kochanski being retooled, and why Lister had his appendix out twice (although that could’ve also been reconstituted in D.N.A.). The Infinite Temporal Flux abides.

    Mind you, that can actually explain any discrepancy the more I think about it.

    Not sure how I feel about Series III onward being a separate continuity from I and II, seeing as they do explain the progression of events in the Backwards crawl.

    I think the more important question is: Did Rimmer always know damn well that sprouts make Lister chuck, or did he learn that by watching Lister trying to eat the raw sprout in Marooned?

    Also, we already know there’s a botanical garden on Red Dwarf, so why would they eat the last strawberry in the universe instead of just trying to plant it?

    #259429
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    @Renegade Rob, on the Marooned cockpit shot looking cack, it’s simple.

    Ed goes “Right chaps, what we’re going to do here is blue screen over there, and then have a lovely handheld shot moving from the midsection to the cockpit, and we’ll put the landing bay in the background. Ok? Lovely.”

    Then the shot it and remembered it was 1989 and they couldn’t track in a background plate on a handheld shot, or any shot. They’d have had to have done it motion control.

    Also there’s a lot of blue spill so it would likely have been atrocious even if they could have done it.

    A locked off shot could’ve worked but I don’t know whether the landing bay model would have been detailed enough to look to scale.

    It’s long been my ambition to actually attempt to fix that scene with various 3D modelling and video editing software, one day. I was hoping they’d do it for the Blu-ray but nah.

    As for the post crash. I don’t think it’s implied the cockpit is crushed, but to show the cockpit from most angles, they would have had to have shown snow against the windows of Starbug, and the set has no actual windows, just holes, so it’s cheaper to just stay in the midsection.

    #259431
    Dave
    Participant

    Also, we already know there’s a botanical garden on Red Dwarf, so why would they eat the last strawberry in the universe instead of just trying to plant it?

    When they get that strawberry out in Demons & Angels, it always makes me think how wasteful Lister and Kryten were by chucking all those fresh strawberries in the bin in The Last Day.

    They seem to have gone from blasé disregard for fresh strawberries to hushed reverence very quickly.

    #259447
    Hamish
    Participant

    And the moral of the story is: Appreciate what you’ve got, because basically, Strawberries are fantastic.

    #259455
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    I can picture Rimmer force-feeding Lister strawberries

    #259456
    bloodteller
    Participant

    why do they say its the last strawberry in the universe? surely all they know for sure is that its the last strawberry on the ship, unless they frequently fly around in some sort of fruit-detector shuttle

    #259457
    Dave
    Participant

    They should audition for where’s my fruit.

    #259461
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    If they worked half as hard to get more strawberries as they did to get some fucking lemons, I’d say obtaining any fruit is within their power.

    #259462
    Katydid
    Participant

    why do they say its the last strawberry in the universe? surely all they know for sure is that its the last strawberry on the ship, unless they frequently fly around in some sort of fruit-detector shuttle

    I don’t think “This is the last strawberry we’re aware of onboard this ship that is the Red Dwarf mining ship the Red Dwarf” is a very good opening line, and not just because I had a stroke halfway through typing it.

    #259474
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    There aren’t a lot of episodes that wouldn’t have been improved by an opening SOS Holly narration laying out their current fruit supply situation. Not too much to ask for.

    Also something I never was clear on: Were the vending machines it was their job to repair meant to be some version of a replicator? They could comprehend custom milkshake orders but also just dictate what the fish of the day was. So was the food molecularly assembled each time or was there actual food stuff being conveyed throughout the ship? Chicken soup nozzles were clogged after all, which struck me as weird since why wouldn’t they be more generalized nozzles for any kind of food? If the food was premade, how did it last 3 million years, even if it had been dehydrated like in Back to the Future 2? Because if it’s replicated then really there’s theoretically infinite fruit, but probably with the problem of finite generalized “food matter” reserves to assemble the food from, so a triplicator would still help.

    As a side note, I’ve been using the lockdown as an opportunity to watch the original Star Trek, which I had never seen properly before, and in the episode Tomorrow is Yesterday, the teleporter operator impresses their onboard guest who’s from the 1960’s by using the food machine to instantly summon chicken soup when the guest requests it. I wonder if this very episode inspired that aspect of Red Dwarf, because of all the foods, they both used chicken soup (a food I’ve never actually seen in vending machines in modern times).

    #259475
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    I’m making this up, fair warning, but we see in Series 1 that they have standard vending machines with clogged chicken soup nozzles. Then, we see that in the drive room we they have a vending machine which can spit out entire meals, and dictate the fish of the day. Then, in Series III, we see Lister throwing a bunch of ingredients into a microwave and instantly producing a full, cooked meal. So perhaps the officers have access to better food vending/replication systems than the lower ranks. Or maybe I’m talking shite.

    I had soup out of a swimming pool vending machine a few years ago. It was as terrible as one would imagine.

    #259477
    Dave
    Participant

    a swimming pool vending machine

    That must have been fucking massive.

    #259478
    Dave
    Participant

    If the food was premade, how did it last 3 million years

    Stasis.

    #259479
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    That must have been fucking massive.

    [ROUND OF APPLAUSE]

    #259500
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Yeah they probably have canteen tier vending machines in the corridors, they’ll give you chicken soup, pies etc, and maybe tools and equipment, one spat out a bucket.

    And then in the drive room and officer areas they have proper meals and flavour synthesis systems or something if not some form of replicator.

    #259501
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    Well, given that only Lister and the Cat require food, perhaps they felt they were overstocked with food.

    #259544
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    Here’s one that I have a personal answer to but it’s not spelled out per se in the episode proper: In White Hole when 12,000 IQ Holly gives them the pool-with-planets plan that Lister chucks in the bin in favor of his own pool shot, was that the intention all along? In other words, did 12,000 IQ Holly in all her geniusness give them intentionally flawed plans knowing that Lister would reject them for his ultimately successful shot? Or was Holly’s plan real and Lister rejected it anyway and just got lucky? Or were both plans valid? (I tend to think it was all Holly’s plan, much like how the Oracle in the Matrix bullshits Neo by telling him he isn’t the One so as to mentally get him where he needs to be.)

    In addition, how fucked would they have been in their no-power situation had they not happened to drift near a White Hole? And what’s to stop them from trying the IQ compression again if they (mostly) don’t remember the timeline? Or was one of 12,000 IQ Holly’s last actions before powering off to direct Red Dwarf in some way in the direction of a White Hole (through Holly Hop or otherwise) so as to act as a reset button for the crisis? Not sure if that reasoning works considering the implication is that they were operating in the White Hole’s time influence even before that start of the episode, though 12,000 IQ Holly could have done some timey-wimey stuff to affect the ship in the past to ensure that it found its way to a White Hole. But that’s a stretch.

    Also, and most importantly, if a White Hole is the opposite of a Black Hole, what with its spewing of matter and energy and time back into the universe, wouldn’t there be an opposite event horizon that’s impossible to enter because it just pushes everything out including light and time, etc. such that nothing in the universe could push past that point? And if so, how do you fill a White Hole with a planet, if theoretically it would just bounce off the event horizon?

    Also, what IS a White Hole?

    #259554
    tombow
    Participant

    I still wonder why Holly had Rimmer activated in the “Lister gets rich with the tension sheet” timeline of Timeslides.

    And…I know nothing about spaceship (or any ship) mechanics, but if Dwarf needed multiple technicians and a navigation crew to fly safely before the accident, why is that not an issue in the show? Who fixes the drive plates now?

    And the valid question from Justice, why were they responsible for the drive plates? What were they, lowly soup machine maintainers or people with the whole crew’s life in their hands?

    #259555
    bloodteller
    Participant

    maybe nobody else on the ship could be bothered to fix the drive plate, so they gave the job to a nobody technician. its a common thing to be asked to do something because nobody else wants to. maybe repairing a drive plate is a really menial boring task as well as incredibly easy, so they figured they could palm it off to rimmer

    #259556
    Dave
    Participant

    I like to imagine Rimmer was tasked with a very low-level job with no real plausible risk of anything dangerous happening, but through his own incompetence and lack of technical understanding he managed to do something so wrong that it caused the accident.

    #259558
    Hamish
    Participant

    From Rimmer’s Death Video:
    HOLLISTER: Look, it was your job to fix it, Rimmer! You can’t do sloppy work on the drive plate!

    It sounds like they knew it could be a big deal.

    #259559
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    RIMMER: I’m concerned over some of the safety procedures on board, sir. There’s a potentially lethal scenario concerning drive plates, sir. Obviously, anyone who mis-repaired one of these plates would have to have a brain the size of a leprechaun’s testicle, nevertheless, sir, like German tourists, the stupid are everywhere.

    Yeah, I quote Series VIII now.

    Anyway, I think Justice is a deliberate retcon and attempts to tinker with the history (much like DNA does with the Kochanski stuff) to align things with Infinity. In this new history, Rimmer is not responsible for the crew dying,he just likes to think he is as that would involve responsibility. So the question in Justice is moot. Z shift (introduced in the novels, not mentioned in the show before or since) were *not* responsible for anything of any significance.

    Obviously, this didn’t stick for Back in the Red and then it went back to Rimmer being responsible for the drive plate, and thus the deaths of the crew.

    #259560
    Bezzy
    Participant

    In Psirens Rimmers light bee is on battery backup but by Rimmerworld it survives at least 600 years …

    While in Promised land it indicates that light bees can be charged with an AC like socket . If that’s the case why is it a worry when Lister is going through the list of Starbug issues due to them losing the Dwarf?

    #259561
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Lemons, also, he lasts for ages

    #259562
    Hamish
    Participant

    I am sure there is a joke in there somewhere.

    #259563
    Dave
    Participant

    In Psirens Rimmers light bee is on battery backup but by Rimmerworld it survives at least 600 years …

    While in Promised land it indicates that light bees can be charged with an AC like socket . If that’s the case why is it a worry when Lister is going through the list of Starbug issues due to them losing the Dwarf?

    They upgraded his light bee in Legion. They probably gave him a recharge off-screen too.

    #259564
    Dave
    Participant

    I still wonder why Holly had Rimmer activated in the “Lister gets rich with the tension sheet” timeline of Timeslides.

    The whole ship should disappear really, there’s no reason it would be out there three million years away from Earth. The accident would probably never have happened. Holly would never have swapped heads and taken the face of Hilly. And even if all of this did happen without Lister, Kryten would never have discovered the mutated developing fluid so Rimmer wouldn’t have any way of going back and changing things again. But nor would Lister so he wouldn’t have been able to give himself the tension sheet in the first place. So that whole timeline exists in some weird limbo that could never have happened.

    They really should have used up ten minutes of the episode to explain all this.

    #259565
    tombow
    Participant

    maybe only organic/alive beings are affected by timeslides changing the past. Maybe as the place where the timeslides were kept on, the ship and it’s parts (including Rimmer and Holly) were left unchanged. Although there’s no reason to *keep* him on – “so it’s just you and me?” “well without Lister here there’s no reason to keep you around” *blip*

    as for drive plate, maybe there was an atmosphere of negligence. Maybe Jupiter was just a really badly run company…maybe the Captain really was a donut chef who had gotten friendly with the right people, just scraped through the exams into being captain and didn’t really understand how important the drive plates were, or everyone just thought someone else was in charge of them and didn’t think about Rimmer not being able to handle them. Maybe Rimmer pushed himself into taking charge of them to feel important.

    #259566
    Dave
    Participant

    Maybe there was no accident and the entire series is taking place in Lister’s mind in the milliseconds before stasis kicks in.

    #259568
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    The whole series is just an unreality bubble inside a despair squid hallucination inside a Red Dwarf snowglobe on Hollister’s desk.

    #259587

    <

    Maybe there was no accident and the entire series is taking place in Lister’s mind in the milliseconds before stasis kicks in.

    No no no, the entire series is taking place in Rimmer’s dream that he is having on the train on the way to interview for a technicians job with the JMC.

    #259588
    clem
    Participant

    You’re all wrong. In the last ever episode Lister will be knocked unconscious, and then Captain Butler will wake up in bed having dreamed all of Red Dwarf, and tell Sanjeev Bhaskar he really ought to wear an H on his forehead.

    #259618

    Why, in Back to Reality, is Rimmer driven to despair by the fact that he can’t blame his parents for his uselessness because he has a successful brother? He has (at this point) three successful brothers and still blames his parents for his uselessness.

    #259621
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    Why does taking a life drive Kryten to suicide when he’s already killed the crew of the Nova 5 without provocation?

    #259622
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    I’d say the effects of the suicide squid aren’t just what happens in the hallucinations specifically, but also a general feeling of despair, like it pumps the chemicals that cause despair directly into your brain. Therefore, anything that happens in the hallucination would affect you more deeply than the same situation in the real world.

    #259625
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    In a way the Rimmer brother thing is the only real fumble in Back to Reality, but thinking about it, the only issue with it is the way other characters recognise it.

    Because it isn’t really “oh, Rimmer’s worst nightmare: he can’t blame his failure on his parents, because his brother is more successful than him, unlike in reality”, it’s “not only does Rimmer have a more successful brother, but the brother is massively more successful than any of his real brothers and he is massively more of a failure than his real self, and the brother has the visage of LISTER, one of the few people in his life that he convinced himself he was superior to, literally the only person in his career that he outranks”.

    The Despair Squid didn’t need to invent an entirely new depressing scenario for Rimmer, it just had to exaggerate his existing circumstances. It highlights how much Rimmer already hated himself.

    #259626
    Dave
    Participant

    Yeah, I always thought it was the idea of Lister being more successful than Rimmer (as well as actually being related to him) which really wound him up. I think Kryten just reads it slightly wrong when he summarises all the reasons at the end.

    #259627
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    Why does taking a life drive Kryten to suicide when he’s already killed the crew of the Nova 5 without provocation?

    There is quite the difference between causing an accident through well-intended actions, and shooting someone down with a big gun. Besides which, Kryten was pretty damn depressed when he realised the Nova 5 crew were dead, in both TV and book depictions.

    #259669
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    Regarding Stasis Leak, I’m referring to how Future Lister goes, “In five years time, you find another way to go back in time.” But then we never see this followed up on (which is fine, but still an unanswered question).

    My theory is that the Future Lister and Rimmer from ‘Stasis Leak’ are the younger versions of the 15 Year Later Lister and Rimmer from ‘Out of Time’.

    Presumably, they found a stardrive they were able to combine with the timedrive, and Lister decided to go back and rescue Kochanski. They already seem to be enjoying the life of luxury they grow accustomed to, given Lister’s expensive looking suit and ability to rent the Honeymoon Suite in a fairly expensive looking hotel.

    When Lister had his accident, Kochanski dumped him – having become as shallow and selfish as the others.

    #259671
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    That actually makes a lot of sense. I bet Future Kryten is actually hanging around the background of Stasis Leak, but no one can tell because his toupee is just that good.

    So here’s another question: How does the table in the drive room eject canisters of ashes so quickly? You’d think they’d shoot it out an airlock or something, not a table in the center of a room. The whoosh sound happens immediately, which might just be the vacuum of space as it’s released into the ramscoop, but still.

    #259674
    Dave
    Participant

    I reckon there’s just a recorded Whoosh sound that plays when they press the button.

    #259679

    The more important question: why is there a chute to eject things into space in the middle of the drive room? And how much stationery got lost down there over the years?

    #259680
    Dave
    Participant

    It’s for Hollister to shit into.

    #259681
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster
    #259686
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    Doctor Who: In Spearhead from Space, what use will the Facsimilies of John F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King Jr.that are seen on-screen be to the Nestene invasion?

    #259687
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Plastic in general is useful to them, that’s just two more to their numbers. (Although aren’t those mad of wax? lol)
    Maybe their intel on Earth is just a little out of date and they think they’re still alive

    #259689
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    I’;m just curious how Kennedy and MLK Jr were going to fit into the invasion plans

    Jacqueline Kennedy: “Jack! I thought you were dead!”

    Nestene Facsimile JFK: “I was!”

    #259690
    Hamish
    Participant

    Nestene JFK was the actual shooter Lister put behind the grassy knoll.

    #259691
    Unrumble
    Participant

    Plastic in general is useful to them, that’s just two more to their numbers. (Although aren’t those mad of wax? lol)
    Maybe their intel on Earth is just a little out of date and they think they’re still alive

    There’s a scene where it’s explained that the plastics factory have been hired to make plastic ‘waxworks’, using some kind of new process/technique.

    #259708

    Why does Lister sign everyone up for the Canaries, going so far as to fake all their signatures, instead of just asking them if they want to join?

    #259726

    Why is Rimmer getting a skutter to put the picture up at the start of IX when he’s hard light?

    #259727
    si
    Participant

    Why is Rimmer getting a skutter to put the picture up at the start of IX when he’s hard light?

    BECAUSE HE CAN.

    #259728
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Why is Rimmer getting a skutter to put the picture up at the start of IX when he’s hard light?
    Fuck me I had never thought about that. He’s probably just flexing his authority on the one thing he has control over, which would be a very Rimmer thing to do. Plus, that would make sense as a re-introduction to the character, since that’s the purpose of the scene it’s found in.

    #259729
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    oh eww does doing > make you actually quote things now
    i don’t like this

    #259739
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    In Stoke Me a Clipper, is the dimension with the planet with the ring of Ace Rimmer coffins implied to be Ace’s home dimension from Dimension Jump since theoretically he’s the “first Ace?”

    Also, do hard-light holograms really need major orthopedic surgery?

    In addition, I’m a bit fuzzy on the succession of Ace’s. I remember the deleted scene where the Ace in Stoke Me a Clipper explains in the medibay that he was originally a Series VI-era Rimmer in his dimension who abandoned his crew and was tracked down by his predecessor, but when he said “I took over from him,” he was talking about the Ace from Dimension Jump. So was that shorthand for, “your Ace was a thousand Ace’s ago and I took over the lineage” or did he really take over directly from the Ace from Dimension Jump, which would imply that the Dimension Jump Ace isn’t actually the first Ace either?

    Also, what happens if an Ace is killed instantly and doesn’t have a chance to pass on the lineage, instead of limping to the nearest Rimmer mortally wounded (ex: being instantly vaporized by a neutron tank in Dimension 165, which makes zero sense if there are infinite dimensions, like why even bother numbering them?).

    Why were Ace’s wig and shades real but the rest of him was part of the hologram?

    Since it’s implied (and even explicitly stated in Backwards) that the Wildfire can and does time-travel when dimension-jumping, why would it hone in on Series IV-era Rimmer when a) Rimmer’s dead and the hologram is a simulated consciousness, and b) both earlier and later in that dimension’s timeline there are actual living Rimmers?

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