Did you see Doctor Who? – Spoilers!

[penny]

So much better than the Chrismas ep, which lets face it was cheesy humour with eye candy for guys and girls…the part with the sparks behind Tennant bit was lovely, but I did think the episode had turned in to an aftershave advert when they did that.

Anyway, on to today’s one…So went “What!? What!? What!?” when Rose turned round.
I’m still not totally in to Tate’s character (she’s a bit annoying). I kind of liked her as a one off type character.

The fat tissue baby creatures were cute though…awwwww!

Topic

[Andrew]

> That middle 8 is so often overlooked?

*applauds*

> Murray Gold really is going for ?let?s see how loud we can make an orchestra in a series!?

I’m not sure this is completely fair, since – while he’s not short on the histrionics – it’s not his job to mix the sound for the show. He doesn’t set the balance which, for the fourth series on the trot, is indeed FAR too heavy on the incidental music. Someone needs to quit approving the sound mix in a great big suite and watch the damn thing on a regular home TV.

There’s a difference between hearing the dialogue and remembering it once you see the actors mouths move and deciding it’s clear enough. Guys, you’re drowning out da wordz!

[pfm]

It would be interesting to know whether they actually do a stereo mix ever, or because they know it’s gonna be 5.1 on the DVD set that’s the only mix they do and then it’s just crammed into 2.0 stereo for broadcast.

The sound on the DVD sets is enough for me to want to end it all (well, almost)unless I’ve got it on my surround setup. I don’t know what the ‘vanilla’ releases sound like because I’m not insane enough to own them (unlike David Tennant who, on his series 3 video diary, you can see he has them all on his shelf, along with all the classic Who DVDs!!)

[Somebody]

Ben Paddon / Sun, 2008-04-06 16:59:
Each time it does, it grows on me a little. I still prefer the Series 1-3 theme, though. Overall it?s my favourite Who theme EVAR, very closely followed by Peter Davison?s theme.

Umm… Series 1 theme != Series 2-3 theme (and there might have been some more subtle tweaks between 2 & 3).

The S1 theme was built from samples, and had no middle eight.

The S2-3 theme(s) was (were) performed by the National Orchestra of Wales. And had the middle eight.

The difference isn’t so drastic as the S4 theme, but the original Delia Derbyshire theme elements were far stronger in the S1 theme. They kind of got buried in the live-orchestra theme.

[Jonathan Capps]

> Umm? Series 1 theme != Series 2-3 theme (and there might have been some more subtle tweaks between 2 & 3).

Depends what you’re referring to. Series 1, 2 and 3 had the exact same opening theme and the big orchestral version done for 2 and 3 credits has that same theme on the front before it kicks off and the orchestra takes over for the middle 8th.

[John Hoare]

It would be interesting to know whether they actually do a stereo mix ever, or because they know it?s gonna be 5.1 on the DVD set that?s the only mix they do and then it?s just crammed into 2.0 stereo for broadcast.

As far as I’m aware, from posts made on the Restoration Team forum, they only do a 5.1 mix – and then automatically fold it down to make the stereo broadcast mix. Which might explain some of the problems.

For anyone interested, there are lots of homemade ?remixes? and reimagining of the themes at http://whomix.trilete.net – a lot of them are shite, but there?s some good stuff too.

That’s a great site. I love this:

http://whomix.trilete.net/?wmid=subreadremixreviews&remixid=66

And the following sounds like something they might actually have done with the theme if the show had carried on into the 90s:

http://whomix.trilete.net/?wmid=subreadremixreviews&remixid=89

FWIW, my favourite version of the theme is the original Delia one, which is just a classic in every sense (although I also love the version used for the pilot as well, with the thunderclaps). By Baker’s time, unfortunately, the theme has been fucked about with so much that it lost all its majesty, and just sounds bland.

I have a very soft spot for the Howell 80s version as well – I love the middle eight, and that version has by far the best rendition. It really soars…

[Pete Part Three]

>>By the way, the thing with the car-keys being put in the bin. That was the same bin that Doctor used to chuck the sonic pen, right?

>I was thinking that, but then I remembered the bin he put the pen in was a big one on the floor and the bin she put the keys in was a small one on a lamp post.

I’m wondering whether Donna’s mum will make a similar mistake and end up with a new pen.

[Ben Paddon]

Did Somebody say something?
Umm? Series 1 theme != Series 2-3 theme (and there might have been some more subtle tweaks between 2 & 3).

The S1 theme was built from samples, and had no middle eight.

The S2-3 theme(s) was (were) performed by the National Orchestra of Wales. And had the middle eight.

The difference isn?t so drastic as the S4 theme, but the original Delia Derbyshire theme elements were far stronger in the S1 theme. They kind of got buried in the live-orchestra theme.

The Series 2-3 theme is little more than an expanded version of the Series 1 theme, as the only involvement the National Orchestra of Wales had was recording that extended version including the middle eight for the end credits (which was also mixed into the “album version” of the theme included in the Series 1 & 2 soudntrack). There is very little difference between the series 1 and series 2-3 opening titles, and so I consider them to be the same theme.

Because they are the same theme.

So there.

[Seb Patrick]

Is the “unused” 2005 theme still out there anywhere? I used to have it a while ago – it’s much deeper and more resonant, particularly around the “diggerdydum” bit. It was used on the very first “D’you wanna come with me?” trailer, but for some reason got changed by the time “Rose” came along…

Also, if anyone can find me the “Ron Grainer arrangement”, I’ll be very happy. I saw it posted on the net AGES ago, but lost it when my old MP3 player died. Basically, because Grainer just composed the tune, but didn’t arrange it (that was Delia D, obv.), the version used in 1963 ended up sounding nothing like his original plan. He finally did his own version for a compilation album of his own songs in the ’70s some time… and it sounds like a cross between a Barry Gray theme and the Grandstand opening titles. Incredibly bizarre.

[Arlene Rimmer BSc SSc]

Whomix is an excellent site, isn’t it? I know, because I’d swear I posted a link to it here before =P . (Altho’ for all I remember, I may have gotten the link from here in the first place.) A list of my favorite mixes there would probably run into a few dozen; I tend to go for the more experimental stuff there, myself.

[pfm]

> they only do a 5.1 mix – and then automatically fold it down to make the stereo broadcast mix. Which might explain some of the problems.

It definitely would explain the volume of the music and the effects often eclipsing the dialogue. Thankfully with 5.1 surround you have dialogue front and centre with its own speaker, but when it’s downmixed to stereo you’re getting the sound from the back two speakers mixed in with everything else, so it seriously increases the volume of sfx and music and the dialogue stays at the same level.

HOWEVER, some of the episodes have been shoddily mixed even in 5.1. Later episodes seem to have found a comprimise. The worst mix ever is during Eccleston’s earth turning speech in Rose. You’re hard put to hear what the frak he’s saying due to the harsh strings drowning everything out!!

[John Hoare]

Yeah, that sounds about right. Similar comments on the Restoration Team forum, too.

Which is REALLY stupid – because far more people are going to watch the bloody show in stereo than in 5.1! And RTD is always going on about the mainstream audience, so you think he’d be specifically catering for them, rather than DVD sales…

[Zombie Jim Undead]

Animations what have been done by fellows on Youtube. Ten shades of awesome.

[penny]

Cool animations there!

[Ben Paddon]

Indeedy. Not arf bad.

[Dave]

Any takers?

http://doctorwhotoys.net/russellcustom.jpg

[penny]

*Chuckles*
Nope!

[Phil]

I think Arlene bought one and bit its head off.

[Arlene Rimmer BSc SSc]

>I think Arlene bought one and bit its head off.

Why ever would I do that?

(Honestly, for all the scorn I heap on Rose, and on his writing, all I really wish, after I’ve wiped the fan-froth from my lips, is that he’d go work on something else.)

[pfm]

> that he?d go work on something else

Like the next Christmas special, featuring the Cybermen in Victorian times.

[si]

I have a very soft spot for the Howell 80s version as well – I love the middle eight, and that version has by far the best rendition. It really soars?

Me too – I have a 7″ single of it, with a scary picture of Tom Baker on the sleeve, which I grew up listening to. I listened to it the other night, and it still puts a big smile on my face.

[Zombie Jim Undead]

Well, this week’s was better. MUCH better. Tate was actually pretty good.

Loved the pyroviles….and oooh! Another reference to the shadow proclamation!

And then there was the “SHE is returning” prophecy (The Rani?)

and Tate has something “on her back”? Hmmm….

[Zombie Jim Undead]

> (Honestly, for all the scorn I heap on Rose, and on his writing, all I really wish, after I?ve wiped the fan-froth from my lips, is that he?d go work on something else.)

Agreed! Russell T Davies gets right on my tits these days. Though I did like Rose.

[Ridley]

That screwdriver is so, so lazy :'(

[Zombie Jim Undead]

That’s true. It’s being massively over-used.

Also wasn’t keen on the clunky comedy “Hey, the families of Pompeii were just like us!” business.

But overall, yes…a good episode.

[Seb Patrick]

>And then there was the ?SHE is returning? prophecy (The Rani?)

Er, who did we see last week?

[Andrew]

Beyond a few exceptional eps (read: Moffat’s stuff) I thought it was about as good as Who gets.

Great monsters and baddies (varied and interesting ones, too), neat body horror, lovely effects work, funky design (Roman circuit boards!) smart character writing (New Who leaves time only for broad strokes, but these were spot-on within that, I thought), some deft comic touches (water pistol!), a genuinely affecting AND thrilling climax, and splendid performances.

Plus SUCH good – and comfortingly fannish – writing. Played for laughs (Latin/Celtic), shock impact (nifty psychic stuff) and, most impressively, for drama. That scene describing WHICH events are fixed in time was extraordinary, totally rooted in character yet also plot-hole-plugging exposition. As good ass anything written for the series, that bit.

A couple of minor stumbles, but…I was genuinely struck by it. Laugh-out-loud stuff, gasp-stuff, and an honestly tearful conclusion. Firing on all cylinders. Which, coming from someone who’d not been keen on ‘hey, lets visit another famous era’ stories, is saying something.

[Zombie Jim Undead]

> Er, who did we see last week?

Quite a few people but none of them were the Rani.

[Seb Patrick]

No. We saw Rose. Who is returning.

Did you honestly not get the MASSIVE SIGNPOSTING of that line? And they said this series’ arc was going to be subtle. Meanwhile, in two episodes so far, two alien races have mysteriously “lost” their planets. OMG DO YOU THINK THERE’S A CONNECTION?

Sorry, but I didn’t like this at all. I’ve outlined on my blog the massive problem I had with the idea of the Doctor just leaving a family to die while he swans off in the TARDIS, but there was lots that just irritated the hell out of me. Philip Cornwell. The fact that they’d made such a big deal out of the TARDIS translating from Latin, and then had a moment where the Doctor made a linguistic pun that didn’t actually work in translation (“sun” and “son” may sound alike, but “sol” and “filius” most certainly do not). The soothsayer women looked like Peter fucking Criss.

And worst of all… there was absolutely no need whatsoever to go back to Pompeii, of all places, somewhere absolutely RIPE with a potentially brilliant human interest story, and instead write a story all about aliens YET AGAIN.

Andrew, in all seriousness, what was “tearful” about the conclusion? All I saw was the Doctor being an utter cunt until Tate quite rightly asked him what the fuck he was doing. And that bit at the with the “household Gods”… OH YEAH I DIDN’T SEE THAT COMING.

[Andrew]

> > Er, who did we see last week?

> Don?t think it was the Rani? [or, after the edit] Quite a few people but none of them were the Rani.

So the ‘she’ being referred to was most likely Rose, dontcha think?

[Zombie Jim Undead]

BBC Press Release about episode 4…

“Martha Jones summons the Doctor back to modern-day Earth, but an old enemy lies in wait, as Russell T Davies’s Bafta Award-winning time-travelling drama continues. With the mysterious ATMOS devices spreading across the world, Donna discovers that even her own family is not safe from the alien threat ? but is it too late to save them?”

Pete was correct about ATMOS being significant. He wins the biscuits!

[Andrew]

> Andrew, in all seriousness, what was ?tearful? about the conclusion?

Beyond ‘the couple I shed’, y’,mean? What can I say? The logic of having to kill 20,000 to save far more seems like a genuinely tough dilemma for anyone but the hardest-hearted pragmatist to me. Having to CAUSE the destruction – that’s proper structure with an emotional core, is that.

[Zombie Jim Undead]

*slaps head* Rose, yes. What a tool I be.

[Zombie Jim Undead]

“The fact that they?d made such a big deal out of the TARDIS translating from Latin, and then had a moment where the Doctor made a linguistic pun that didn?t actually work in translation (?sun? and ?son? may sound alike, but ?sol? and ?filius? most certainly do not).”

Bloody hell.

[Seb Patrick]

What I did like about that bit was that it gave a genuine, non-arbitrary reason for why the eruption had to happen – it wasn’t that it was some randomly-chosen “fixed” point, it was that the Doctor made it happen.

However, making the decision to kill a load of people in order to save more… well, that seems pretty damned well at odds with a certain moment in The Parting of the Ways… “Coward or killer?” “Coward… every time”.

Killing a massive number of people as the only way to save the rest? When did the Doctor turn into Adrian Veidt?

[Andrew]

> Killing a massive number of people as the only way to save the rest? When did the Doctor turn into Adrian Veidt?

I don’t think that’s fair, unsurprisingly. Veidt was coming from a far more abstract position. You can argue his intellect made it seem not that way, I guess, but while we could never comprehend Veidt’s choice as binary (however much he insists), the Doctor’s clearly was.

It’s one thing to plan the destruction. It’s another to have to make the decision in seconds.

As to the rest…

> Did you honestly not get the MASSIVE SIGNPOSTING of that line? And they said this series? arc was going to be subtle.

Seems a bit harsh. We did see Rose already – so it’s not a signpost for us, is it? I guess it says she’s coming back again, which we weren’t specifically told, but I doubt anyone thought she was hired for that one shot in isolation. So it reinforces what we saw last week. Nothing especially wrong about that, is there?

> Meanwhile, in two episodes so far, two alien races have mysteriously ?lost? their planets. OMG DO YOU THINK THERE?S A CONNECTION?

To be fair, I hadn’t joined that up. But then, don’t the aliens in Who generally arrive on Earth due to escape or evacuation? (‘Invasion’ being the other one, I guess.)

> Philip Cornwell.

No, fair enough on that one.

> The fact that they?d made such a big deal out of the TARDIS translating from Latin, and then had a moment where the Doctor made a linguistic pun that didn?t actually work in translation (?sun? and ?son? may sound alike, but ?sol? and ?filius? most certainly do not).

Yes, they should have made it true to the Latin so it didn’t work for the audience instead. Clearly. :-)

When the translation idea’s a mess anyway – and an inherited mess at that – this doesn’t trouble me. (Why do we see and hear English in scenes the Doctor is in? And If you spoke to a Frenchman In French while being overheard by an Englishman, what then? And whither accents? Etc. etc.)

> And worst of all? there was absolutely no need whatsoever to go back to Pompeii, of all places, somewhere absolutely RIPE with a potentially brilliant human interest story, and instead write a story all about aliens YET AGAIN.

They should have written an alien-free episode?

Bah – we’re never gonna agree on this one, huh?

[Seb Patrick]

I’m clearly in the minority – scouting around, it seems this was a well-liked episode. And there were definitely good things about it – Peter Capaldi was every bit as good as I’d expected (although this was counterbalanced by the hamminess of Phil Davis). As with episode one, Donna had moments that were awful, and moments that were really rather good (I don’t know why, but I thought in terms of the tone, the “I bloody love you!” line worked perfectly).

But I’ve wanted a Roman Empire-set story since day one. I’d been looking forward to this one massively. And it just felt like something of a missed opportunity – the plot felt messy (too many different and disparate strands of antagonist – from Davis, to the rubbish Sisters of Wossname, to the big monsters underground), the attempt at justifying the “I can’t interfere HERE even though I interfere EVERYWHERE ELSE” was half-hearted and lazy, and I was really appalled by what I perceived to be an out-of-character set of actions on the Doctor’s part at the end.

I don?t think that?s fair, unsurprisingly. Veidt was coming from a far more abstract position. You can argue his intellect made it seem not that way, I guess, but while we could never comprehend Veidt?s choice as binary (however much he insists), the Doctor?s clearly was.

It?s one thing to plan the destruction. It?s another to have to make the decision in seconds.

Yeah, that was a cheap shot. But I do think we’ve had precedent for this sort of decision. He had to make a snap decision of that type during the Time War. He’s been living with the guilt ever since. In TPOTW, he had a similar decision to make, and he turned it down. Why the change now?

I just felt… I dunno… at every turn, the character morals felt wrong to me.

[Zombie Jim Undead]

> As with episode one, Donna had moments that were awful, and moments that were really rather good (I don?t know why, but I thought in terms of the tone, the ?I bloody love you!? line worked perfectly).

Agreed. I just can’t make my mind up. I guess I don’t see her as a rounded character…I still see her as Tate with flashes of sketch show characters peeking through.

[Andrew]

> But I?ve wanted a Roman Empire-set story since day one. I?d been looking forward to this one massively.

Ah. Nowwwwwwwwwwwww I get it. :-)

Fair enough. I’m the same about every SF show’s use of Jack the Ripper.

> Why the change now?

Different Doctor? One with a fighting hand?

Didn’t feel out of character to me. I guess because it’s a question built on structure. It’s one a show gets to answer in words all the time – check me out with my stance on morality – but when it has to be answered in actions, well, we end up not always being who we think we are.

(I also have a huge bugbear about the reverence for Genesis of the Daleks because it asks the question, then cheats the Doctor out of having to make the decision.)

I thought the beats of the story were terrific, BTW. Usually I find New Who suffers from a lack of second acts – straight from ‘ooh, here we are, and this is the situation’ to ‘quick, blow it up!’ It’s partly a product of the duration, as is the quickie characterisation. But I loved how each part evolved and joined, how the characters were sketched and utilised, and how it managed to combine a lot of ideas coherently. (No ‘hey, we have a monster, won’t that do?’ a la Lazarus; we got loads of great imagery, all tied to the story.)

Plus, some nifty social commentary. Not entirely subtle, but the points on gender and religion were neatly done. Chuffed to see the 9/11 subtext – religious mania, major destructive event – underplayed. too.

[John Hoare]

Not read all this thread yet – I will do – but after I was *so* upset about last week’s episode, I just have to report that I just watched it on catch-up, and I fucking loved it. And I was going into the episode *really* worried!

Not perfect – Tate’s “SPACEMAN!!!!!!!!” line had me willing her to fuck off – but hugely enjoyable. (And great to see some decent CGI again – what with this and The Satan Pit, New Who really does fire creatures well, doesn’t it?) And that shot of the family cowering in the ash was… yes, moving. And I’m a hard-hearted bastard, really.

And by the end, despite my massive slagging last week, I didn’t mind Tate – she’s generally fine when she’s not doing her patented schtick. (And her reaction to the Doctor’s foam line is the FIRST TIME EVER she’s made me laugh.)

Not as good as The Aztecs, mind…

[ChrisM]

I found it a bit simplistic that just pushing down a couple of panels was enough to turn Venusvius’s power into itself and cause the eruption… That being said, I understand there’s only a limited amount of space in the episode and quite a bit of area to cover, and in the end it was about presenting the moral conundrum… which was a very interesting twist to the Pompeii story.

Great monsters (if a bit easy to kill… I understand the shock factor of cold water on hot rock is what did it, but it would require a bit more than a bucket for that amount of body mass) and I liked the merger of the aliens with the various human villain threads.

Overall a good episode, and yes Tate was great, and I am a poet. (Well not really but anyway..)

[Ridley]

I?ve outlined on my blog the massive problem I had with the idea of the Doctor just leaving a family to die while he swans off in the TARDIS

James Moran: Seb, I didn’t get the opportunity to tell you before, but earlier today I discovered that the Doctor is suffering from a stress-related nervous disorder.

[Jonathan Capps]

Aaaaaand Ridley wins.

[Andrew]

> As good ass anything written for the series, that bit.

I meant ‘as’.

> Why do we see and hear English in scenes the Doctor is in?

I meant ‘isn’t in’.

I also meant to bitch about how editing my posts will ruin the flow of this robust discussion about how wrong Seb is – :-) – but I’ll leave that one for now…

[pfm]

> Not as good as The Aztecs, mind?

Lolling myself to sleep… :)

Flippin’ ‘eck, this is one of the craziest episodes they’ve done so far. Yet again, for what seems like the 20th time in new Who, there was such ambition and hugeness and not enough time to do it justice. They definitely should have gone for THIS as the 2-parter instead of the Sontaran Stratagem. Maybe they didn’t have the balls to do it considering how flat the New York 2-parter fell (IMO) last year.

Because there wasn’t enough time they didn’t have chance to make us give much of a crap about either the family (anyone do Latin at school? Caecilius and his family are what you learn about, or at least you did 10 years ago when I was doing it) OR the Pyroviles – a groanworthy name, if there was one.

Did anyone notice Tennant talking even quicker than normal? Maybe that’s because the exposition, or what you could hear of it, was pretty darn hazy and bullshitty, though all this was saved by the EXCELLENT Rome set standing in for Pompeii and effects work that we really aren’t worthy of (how do they have any money for the rest of the series?)

Catherine Tate was really good at the emotional stuff. If it weren’t for her series no-one would be complaining at all. It’s just that all some people can see are her characters! Well I’ll tell you something, all I could see were her BREASTS during some moments! Huge succulent orbs, surely an episode should be based around them at some point. Hang on, these are the missing planets!!

[Ben Paddon]

Before Donna convinced him to go back, both Donna and the Doctor drew parallels to the destruction of Gallifrey, and the Doctor mentioned that he’s just as unable to go back to Pompeii to save anyone as he is to travel back to the Time War and stop the destruction of his own planet. Is this perhaps laying the seed – in the Doctor’s mind, if not the story as a whole – of the Doctor going back to the Time War? Could this be seed-planting for the finale, or perhaps that “fanwanky” 2009 special Russell T Davies has mentioned previously?

[Pete Part Three]

I thought it was a 4 star belter. Cornwell was not welcome, it took a while to get going and Tate was her usual self, but it worked really well and the last ten minutes were great. The coda was pretty pointless and obvious though.

The thing about “flux vs fixed” was interesting. Didn’t make much sense, but interesting nonetheless.

[Ridley]

Can’t there just be more like Girl in the Fireplace, Blink and Human Nature?

[Seb Patrick]

Well, that’s called “getting Moffat and Cornell to write everything”. Which I think most people would rather like.

Although, I’d like to reassert my opinion that if either of those writers, brilliant as they are, had to write more than two episodes per series, we WOULD see poor episodes from them. Similarly, if RTD had only had to write his very best eps, we’d hail him as much as we do Moffat.

[Jonathan Capps]

… *almost* as much as we do Moffat.

[Ridley]

I didn’t much care for the Family of Blood one but I’d have to see it again to point out exactly why.

And I’m of the opinion Mr. Davies should step back from writing episodes and stick to whatever else it is he does on the series since for the most part it feels to me like he jumps between who/what he’s trying to cater for be it old fans, new fans, kids, adults, the gay community, Wales, serial, contained story, himself, pop culture, political satire, romance, action etc. because it doesn’t come across as a sensible balance.

[Author]

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