Did you see Doctor Who? – Spoilers!

[penny]

So much better than the Chrismas ep, which lets face it was cheesy humour with eye candy for guys and girls…the part with the sparks behind Tennant bit was lovely, but I did think the episode had turned in to an aftershave advert when they did that.

Anyway, on to today’s one…So went “What!? What!? What!?” when Rose turned round.
I’m still not totally in to Tate’s character (she’s a bit annoying). I kind of liked her as a one off type character.

The fat tissue baby creatures were cute though…awwwww!

Topic

[pfm]

This country…

[Seb Patrick]

>whatever else it is he does on the series

You probably didn’t mean it that way, but this sounds massively dismissive. Beyond writing and exec producing, RTD does a HELL of a lot of work on Who, most of which is stuff that the fans will never even really see or be aware of (because it’s not really aimed at them). I know he’s written some shite episodes, and he makes decisions (and, for that matter, public comments) that piss people off – but I honestly do not think there is ANYONE who would or could have done everything he has to make the show the biggest non-soap thing on British telly.

I know I sound like a broken record, but I just think the point is worth reiterating. We’ll really bloody miss him when he’s gone. Except for Arlene.

[Ridley]

Well no, I’m just suggesting it might be better for him to back off on the writing so much and concentrate the role(s) he does behind the scenes.

Whatever they may be. ;)

[Andrew]

> but I honestly do not think there is ANYONE who would or could have done everything he has to make the show the biggest non-soap thing on British telly.

Indeed.

My understanding is that, for a majority of episodes, he turns up with a pile of ideas – “Vesuvius, lava monster, psychics” – and assigns them a writer. But it’s also pretty clear that his is the eye on the emotional significance of things, it’s his perspective that everyone is tuning into when it comes to making situations MATTER to both guest and regular characters. (Something I think old Who was often missing.)

It’s remarkable to watch the footage of the ‘tone meetings’ on the DVDs, to see the way a pitched story evolves as everyone tunes in to the ideas. Davies, of course, holds the final say at the end of every discussion.

I think Davies, and the show, are in need of a stronger script editor – someone who can tell the showrunner when he’s dropped the ball. Not an easy thing…

[Seb Patrick]

Well no, I?m just suggesting it might be better for him to back off on the writing so much and concentrate the role(s) he does behind the scenes.

It’ll never go that way, though – I personally doubt he’ll be showrunner beyond the specials (which, conversely, is why I think Tennant will be around for at least one series AFTER them). But no matter when he stops doing that, he’ll always be a writer – I can’t see the new boss, whoever it might be, not giving him the odd episode here and there. And I also think that when he’s not running it any more, we may well see the best of him as a writer of episodes.

[pfm]

As much as I like them I don’t want Tennant and RTD to be around for series 5. After the specials the show will definitely need a big reboot, otherwise things are going to get stale. The classic series would have been boring if it had been years and years of the same Doctor and same producers (I do reckon Baker should have gone 2 seasons before he did, even though of course there ARE decent episodes in his latter days).

My thinking is that if it gets the reboot sooner rather than later then there’s a better chance of the show’s long-term survival. If RTD and Tennant stay on for season 5 and the viewers drop, the BBC could realistically decide enough is enough and can the whole thing. Yeah everyone’s gonna buy it on DVD but, as is the case with Dwarf, BBC TV couldn’t give much of a toss about that. IMO the current love-in with Who could be all over so fast we wouldn’t know what happened. Nothing is certain. OK, a new Doctor and new showrunner could come in and everyone hates it, but it’s a risk they’ve got to take.

[Zombie Jim Undead]

> but I honestly do not think there is ANYONE who would or could have done everything he has to make the show the biggest non-soap thing on British telly.

Very true and he should be applauded for that…but it doesn’t mean that his input makes it a BETTER show. It just ensures that it has mass appeal.

In the same way…the soaps always get the highest viewing figures…but they’re not the best dramas on TV.

RTD brought Doctor Who back in a way that made it successful. But when I look at episodes like Blink and Human Nature…shows where what I perceive to be RTD’s voice is more distant / less apparent, the quality just kicks up a gear.

And these shows don’t lose what makes new Who great / appealing. They just do it in a classier and more intelligent way. I sometimes think that RTD underestimates the audience.

I’m personally looking forward to RTD taking a back seat and letting someone else (Moffat / Cornell) come to the fore. I think they will maintain the current audience as well as really better capturing the spirit that makes old Who and new Who (at its best) so very very good.

[Andrew]

> Nothing is certain. OK, a new Doctor and new showrunner could come in and everyone hates it, but it?s a risk they?ve got to take.

Maybe creatively, from a certain point of view, but it’s not a risk they need to take yet from a popular perspective. The ratings completely justify not fixing what ain’t bust.

> If RTD and Tennant stay on for season 5 and the viewers drop, the BBC could realistically decide enough is enough and can the whole thing.

I honestly doubt one series either way would seriously damage the show”s long-term survival. There’s no way a dip during a hypothetical fifth series would go so low to make the whole thing dumpable. Partly because the level of drop-off required would have to be unspeakably massive (from the current 5-8m down to, say, less than 2), but mostly because it would genuinely require all decision makers to believe that the show was unsalvageable.

I’ve said before that anything can happen, the show could die. But it’d take a lot more right now than a bit of creative exhaustion. Cast an exciting newcomer as the lead (or pull the Davies stunt and start with an actual Big Name, just to get things running again), install a safe-to-the-BBC pair of hands to show-run (names like Matthew Graham would no doubt be kicked around) and off they go again – salvation for the ratings, and the reputation.

Too much is invested in Who right now for the show to be let die at the first stumble.

[Seb Patrick]

>(names like Matthew Graham would no doubt be kicked around)

Ugh, you would hope that Fear Her would prevent him from ever getting near the show again. “It’s not just a flame any more, it’s hope, and it’s love”.

I think we all know who the likely future showrunner is. The fans love him, the BBC love him. I only hope he actually wants the job.

but it doesn?t mean that his input makes it a BETTER show. It just ensures that it has mass appeal… when I look at episodes like Blink and Human Nature?shows where what I perceive to be RTD?s voice is more distant / less apparent, the quality just kicks up a gear.

But who do you think will have brought Cornell and Moffat in in the first place? Cornell was a sometime-Casualty writer who’d done a few Who books. Moffat hadn’t really done anything since a lacklustre fourth series of Coupling, and certainly wasn’t at all known for drama. Again, I’m sounding like RTD’s biggest apologist, but don’t overlook the role he had in bridging the gap between Tellydom (of which he was already a massively-established part) and his New Adventures mates.

Yes, you could argue that his time has run his course, and I think you’d probably be right. I think he told the story that he wanted to tell in series one and two. But I fear that in the closing years of his tenure, and indeed for a while afterwards, there’s going to be this rewriting of history that says that he was a crap writer whose style did more harm to the show than good. Which simply isn’t true.

[Zombie Jim Undead]

> But who do you think will have brought Cornell and Moffat in in the first place? Cornell was a sometime-Casualty writer who?d done a few Who books. Moffat hadn?t really done anything since a lacklustre fourth series of Coupling, and certainly wasn?t at all known for drama.

Absolutely, RTD brought them on board and, as is the case with his input elsewhere, created opportunities for the show to really flourish. No doubting his input in that respect has been fantastic. But now I’d like to see the reigns taken by someone who can also write a top class mature script and is creatively stronger overall…and really build on the foundations RTD has laid down.

[Andrew]

> Ugh, you would hope that Fear Her would prevent him from ever getting near the show again.

Well, I wouldn’t, but then I don’t hate that episode especially (in fact it has some moments – generally gaggy bits – that I genuinely love). Of course, I wasn’t suggesting the guy – just saying that, when the Beeb goes casting around for names, it’s bound to look to previous successes. And LoM fits that bill.

> Moffat hadn?t really done anything since a lacklustre fourth series of Coupling

Bit hard on Moffat, there – Coupling’s still-well-written last series notwithstanding, he’d created four shows, all showing brilliance in the writing, become a seriously well-connected figure industry-wise (meaning his unproduced stuff would also have been doing the rounds), penned Who prose…and picked up awards along the way.

Davies totally deserves praise for bringing the guy in, but one look at his work shows a keen eye for structure as well as comedy. You’d hope any showrunner worth his salt, especially a writer, would see it – beyond one series of Coupling.

It’s often an unimaginative industry, no question. Pigeonholing abounds. But every so often the creator of Queer as Folk gets to do a family SF show, an arthouse drama director gets to direct the next Bond movie, and the writer of farcical british sitcom gets to adapt Tintin for Spielberg and Jackson…

[si]

Everyone’s been very serious here. So, being as I’ve mentioned it on every other webboard/forum I’ve visited today, I don’t see why this should be any different…

That TK Maxximus line was great.

[pfm]

> the writer of farcical british sitcom gets to adapt Tintin for Spielberg and Jackson

It’s worth noting that this is surely a major reason why he WON’T be the next head honcho. He’s gonna be very busy with these 3 films for quite some time. I’d be very surprised to see a Moffat episode in series 5 even. Personally I think it’s gonna be Helen Raynor, even though I don’t want it to be.

[Andrew]

Well to be fair it’s more likely that he’ll be the FIRST writer on Tintin. Spielberg goes through screenwriters like Kleenex.

[pfm]

It’s already been said he’ll write the trilogy.

[Smeg4Brains]

I’ve just watched Saturday’s episode on BBCiplayer and I thought it was fantastic, as was Tate’s performance.

The story was brilliant, the whole idea of having to kill all those people in order to save the world, and I have to agree with Andrew in saying that towards the end it almost made me shed a tear. The only thing that annoyed me was that all that frustration that built up between the Doctor and Donna in the TARDIS when they were escaping Pampaii was then lost when the Doctor went back to rescue the family. He should have left them to prove a point to Donna that you can’t do whatever you want when you’re traveling through time, even if it’s what you feel to be morally right.

As for the story arc, I can see a few emerging.

1) Rose, Der.
2) “There’s something on your back”
3) “We’re not married” (could be the subtleness that was promised)

Unfortunatly I haven’t spotted any Doctor Dwarf moments yet.

[Ian Symes]

That TK Maxximus line was great.

No, it fucking was fucking not. It was shit and stupid, both in writing and delivery. The stupid leap of logic JUST to get to that line was beyond belief. “What do you do for fun? Do you hang around outside shops? Like TK Maximus?” FUCK OFF. That’s not dialogue. That’s just an incredibly shit joke that you’ve forced unsuccessfully into a conversation. I can’t believe that made it to the shooting script, let alone the final show.

Unfortunatly I haven?t spotted any Doctor Dwarf moments yet.

The whole thing reminds me of Series VII and VIII so far.

[Smeg4Brains]

> The whole thing reminds me of Series VII and VIII so far.

Underrated?

[Jonathan Capps]

> Underrated?

That’s odd, cos I would say that Series VIII in particular is hugely OVER rated. I agree that the TK Maximus line was complete bullshit, too, but then whenever Donna makes a ‘joke’ it makes me die a little inside. Especially when she’s about to be sliced up by a cult. God, isn’t she so FEISTY? No, she’s a cunt.

Still, the character is improving, little by little.

[Ian Symes]

Underrated?

Shite.

[Andrew]

> It?s already been said he?ll write the trilogy.

Oh, gosh, gee-willikers, really? With all of two parts cast he’s definitely going to be tied to a blockbuster trilogy for two of the biggest beards in film? It’s been ANNOUNCED?! Well why didn’t you say!

With the best will in the world, just because a single writer’s been named as they go into PRE-production of a film, doesn’t mean…well, anything. Even for a single film. Much less a trilogy, And especially when Spielberg’s involved.

[Pete Part Three]

>Shite.

LOL!11

It’s not often that I find myself sticking up for Doctor Who, but I’d reiterate that the second episode was a marked improvement on the first. Maybe my positive thoughts are due to the fact that I’ve found the show wildly inconsistent in terms of quality from week to week in the last three years. For example, Episode 2 was far better than the final 2 parts of the season three finale.

>With the best will in the world, just because a single writer?s been named as they go into PRE-production of a film, doesn?t mean?well, anything. Even for a single film. Much less a trilogy, And especially when Spielberg?s involved.

What he said.

Hopefully Tintin will go down like a lead balloon (I liked the nineties cartoon but really don’t see the point of a trilogy) and Moffatt can dedicate his entire career to Doctor Who and making me cream my pants again Blink-style.

[Andrew]

> For example, Episode 2 was far better than the final 2 parts of the season three finale.

Ho yus!

I’d like to see Tintin go ahead and succeed – I was a big fan of the books growing up – but yeah, they don’t need Moffat on-site for five years to do it.

[Phil]

The only experience with Tin Tin I have is through a Kenyan guy I used to room with. He kept a bunch of Tin Tin books in the bathroom because he said it helped to laugh when he was having a difficult poo.

[ChrisM]

I read a bit of Tin-tin. I wasn’t into it as much as Asterix (I used to gobble those up one after the other from the school library), but it was an enjoyable enough read.

I’m not that keen on a screen version though, but I’m sure with the plotting etc, they’ve got plenty of material to do a good job of it.

[Zombie Jim Undead]

“You might have eyes on the back of your hands but you’ll have eyes in the back of your head when I’m done with you.”

That was really pitiful. Just doesn’t work. What was she inferring…that they would have to watch their backs? Or was it a corruption of “laughing on the other side of your face?” Or was it, as I expect, a nonsensical muddle of the two?

Urgh.

[Dave]

It’s lines like T.K. Maximus that keep people like my mother watching.

The Capaldi speaking Celtic was much better achieved, but I doubt many people were texting “There’s tidy” to each other.

[John Hoare]

I must admit, I didn’t even NOTICE the TK Maxximus line when I watched it!

Having looked on YouTube… it’s fine. Not hilarious, not stab-worthy. It doesn’t involve Catherine Tate doing one of her bloody voices, at least.

[si]

That TK Maxximus line was great.

No, it fucking was fucking not. It was shit and stupid, both in writing and delivery.

Calm down Symesy, you twat. You don’t agree, then?

[Andrew]

Cute, funny line. Nothing wrong with it. It’s Donna trying to ingratiate herself with the girl – fine for context, fine for the joke, fine for the delivery.

[Ian Symes]

But it was completely shoe-horned in and didn’t make any sense! The joke wasn’t good enough to merit that.

[John Hoare]

Surely the worst piece of dialogue yet in New Who is in The Parting of the Ways: “I think you need a Doctor…”

[pfm]

“British writer Steven Moffat has been asked to write the scripts for Steven Spielberg and Peter Jackson’s trilogy of Tintin.”

I’ve read elsewhere that they’re specifically adapting three classic Tintin stories, e.g. The Crab with the Golden Claws, The Calculus Affair.

[Andrew]

> But it was completely shoe-horned in and didn?t make any sense!

I disagree.

> ?British writer Steven Moffat has been asked to write the scripts for Steven Spielberg and Peter Jackson?s trilogy of Tintin.?

Not sure what that’s meant to prove. I know the reports, I just think you need to ignore reality to accept them at face value.

[Ben Paddon]

Ian is over-reacting and also smells.

[pfm]

> Not sure what that?s meant to prove

Not at lot. I’m just convincing myself.

[si]

I think the offending scene is reminiscent of Rose and Gwyneth’s scene in The Unquiet Dead.

[Seb Patrick]

>Surely the worst piece of dialogue yet in New Who is in The Parting of the Ways: ?I think you need a Doctor??

Any piece of bad RTD dialogue, though, is made up for by “THIS IS NOT WAR. THIS IS PEST CONTROL.”

[John Hoare]

I think the offending scene is reminiscent of Rose and Gwyneth?s scene in The Unquiet Dead.

True, although I don’t think it’s as well-written or performed.

But then, I don’t think we’ve had a better main companion in the new series than Rose, yet. (And whilst I’m open to the idea that Tate might grow on me as the series progresses, I doubt she’ll do it that much…)

[John Hoare]

Any piece of bad RTD dialogue, though, is made up for by ?THIS IS NOT WAR. THIS IS PEST CONTROL.?

His ratio of good to bad dialogue is massively in his favour, obviously!

[pfm]

I actually like ‘I think you need a Doctor’. I remember laughing with glee at the time. it’s a bit of a joyous moment, if slightly groanworthy!

[si]

Very groanworthy.

[Ben Paddon]

But joyous all the same.

[John Hoare]

At another moment, I might not have minded it. But it’s *too* groanworthy for the dramatic climax of the series, I think.

[Zombie Jim Undead]

I had a whole theory about how “the Doctor” was a mythical title in the same way as “Bad Wolf”…and just how Rose was destined to defeat the Dalek army as “Bad Wolf”, “The Doctor” was destined to save her life afterwards.

I have since abandoned this idea and now proclaim the line to be a big bucket of cheesy balls.

[pfm]

Maybe the lost outtake ‘I think you need a throbbing northern cock up that fine chavtastic arse of yours’ would have been a better choice after all.

[John Hoare]

Actually, I take that back. The worst line so far in New Who is: “THE. LOCH. NESS. MONSTER!!!!!!!1111111”

[Ben Paddon]

I still say the worst lines in the entire show’s run so far have been everything Peter Kay said during Love & Monsters. The episode has since grown on me but Peter Kay’s performance was brain-meltingly terrible.

[Ian Symes]

The worst line in New Who is Tennant saying “I ain’t afraid of no ghosts” in a Scooby Doo voice.

[Pete Part Three]

We have a winner.

[Author]

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