Your Unpopular Red Dwarf Opinions

[Piplup2003]

The title says it all. What opinions do you have about Red Dwarf that no-one else seems to agree on?

For me, it’s that VIII is my second favourite series (behind V) and that I prefer Chloë over Claire as Kochanski (this may be partially influenced by the fact that I’ve met Chloë).

And please, no arguing.

Topic

[Rushy]

 Not that 2017 Ward and Baker are identical either.

I adore those video games. I’m about halfway through the original Dark Forces

[Warbodog]

They wouldn’t put a joke in Red Dwarf that only American people would get.

I remember Epideme having too many of those laboured simile jokes all of a sudden, so the co-writer influence makes sense.

[Turk Thrust]

I like the Salt Lake City joke too, and for the record I am British, not American. I just know Utah is Mormon Country.
It’s one of those jokes where it either tickles you or it doesn’t. Certainly you can say it’s not a big laugh. It’s either boring or mildly amusing and that’s the problem

Yeah, I think the Salt Lake City gag is one of the better ones, but a quick check suggests there were 19 “than” gags in VII. For example, …

“… duller than an in-flight magazine produced by Air Belgium,”

“You’ve had more RAM than a field of sheep.”

“This from a man who’s had less sex than a lettuce.”

“You look sadder than the salad you get with a takeaway shaami kebab.”

Obviously, Series VI had even more, but I would say they were generally of a much higher quality.

[Ben Saunders]

the Salt Lake City gag was so good they re-used it in Better Call Saul

[Dave]

The “Saturday night in Salt Lake City” joke works mostly for the rhythm and sibilance of the phrasing, I think.

Often with these kinds of jokes I feel as though the importance of the central premise is overrated and the importance of the specific language used is underrated. The beat and rhythm and accent of a sentence is massively important in whether a joke lands or not.

[Ben Saunders]

Yes, it’s why deader than tank tops works while “deader than courdroy blah blahs with pockets in the knees” or whatever doesn’t. “…waiting list for birds to appear every time I am near” works while “a Mars bar living in Scotland” doesn’t. It’s a very fine balance to get one of these jokes to work, it seems. It has to have the right rhythm and be performed the right way, rather than simply “make sense”.

[Dave]

Absolutely. It’d be an interesting challenge to try and rework some of the weaker gags into something that lands better, but with respect to the original writers I’m sure they went through that process too and felt like the final version was the best they could come up with.

And sometimes the overworked nature of these gags, particularly the extended similies, is part of what makes them funny. It’s not an exact science.

[Turk Thrust]

Well, yes, it’s interesting the difference between say,

“… less brains than a mollusc.”

and

“… less brains than a Macaque Rhesus monkey after the first course of a Vietnamese wedding banquet.”

[Turk Thrust]

It’s also interesting the difference between:

“This from a man who’s had less sex than a lettuce.”

And the original line in the script:

He’s “had his leg over less times than Douglas Bader.”

[Ben Saunders]

Who the fuck is Douglas Bader

[Flap Jack]

Someone worse than Douglas Bad, but better than Douglas Badest.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Who the fuck is Douglas Bader

A double amputee WW2 RAF pilot

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Bader

this biographical film was made about him which I’m almost certain I’ve seen

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reach_for_the_Sky

Why a heroic RAF pilot wouldn’t be getting much sex I don’t know.  Unless his injuries extended up to his groin but the wiki article doesn’t cover that. 

[Dave]

Why a heroic RAF pilot wouldn’t be getting much sex I don’t know.  Unless his injuries extended up to his groin but the wiki article doesn’t cover that. 

Genuinely not sure if joking. 

[Podey]

I did type an explanation and then decided against posting it.

That’s too much knowledge to have to not get the joke, I’m sure. (and what an unpleasant joke, btw)

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Why a heroic RAF pilot wouldn’t be getting much sex I don’t know.  Unless his injuries extended up to his groin but the wiki article doesn’t cover that.  

Genuinely not sure if joking.  

I’m joking a bit. 

But it is taking slang and making it very literal

Maybe that’s why they changed it 

[tombow]

I wouldn’t have known who Bader is when I saw that ep but I did see a doc about him being in Colditz a couple of years ago

[Moonlight]

Well, yes, it’s interesting the difference between say,
“… less brains than a mollusc.”
and
“… less brains than a Macaque Rhesus monkey after the first course of a Vietnamese wedding banquet.”

I think I just got that joke for the first time seeing it in text. 

[Professor Flibble]

Hello, everyone! I’m Professor Flibble. Been a guest viewer for years but only now thought “Ah why not” and actually make an account.

Thought I’d start here. I don’t have many unpopular opinions really when it comes to Red Dwarf, I’m quite tame really. Series I-VI are the golden years, particularly III-VI, Series VIII is shit, that sort of thing.

I think my most unpopular opinion might be I prefer Hattie Hayridge to Norman Lovett.

[Warbodog]

I think I just got that joke for the first time seeing it in text. 

Did you think the monkeys were the wedding guests?

[Rushy]

 I think my most unpopular opinion might be I prefer Hattie Hayridge to Norman Lovett.

Oh, hello Satan

[Moonlight]

Did you think the monkeys were the wedding guests?

No, just that I watch Tikka quite infrequently as an adult and every time I heard that line I got distracted by how overwritten of a simile it is and then ignored it. I also get weirded out by Chris’s odd delivery of “That was about as SMOOOOOOTH…as Egyptian whisky.” 

[Professor Flibble]

 I think my most unpopular opinion might be I prefer Hattie Hayridge to Norman Lovett.

Oh, hello Satan

Norman’s great, just prefer Hattie. I mean there’s a couple reasons for that. I think she does a bit more acting in the background so even when the focus isn’t on her and with how little she’s given to do in those three series, she’s clearly trying. Also, the three series she’s in are my favourite era of Dwarf.

[Warbodog]

I’d guess Hattie just about wins the popular opinion on this site, but it’s not controversial either way.

[Professor Flibble]

I’d guess Hattie just about wins the popular opinion on this site, but it’s not controversial either way.

Ah, I guess I’m used to seeing people say Norman was the superior one. And I can never get over the way she was (very politely to give Rob and Doug credit) fired, and Norman keeps being brought back.

[Moonlight]

Let’s just commit to reversing the premise of the thread now.

Bodyswap. What a good episode, huh? Green piss. Classic. Remember that bit where the bomb is actually a milkshake?

[Dave]

I wouldn’t have known who Bader is when I saw that ep but I did see a doc about him being in Colditz a couple of years ago

I think I first heard of him when Jasper Carrott did a routine decades ago about roads in Birmingham that had been renamed to honour famous war heroes, one of which was (and this is true) “Bader Walk”.

[Rushy]

Norman’s great, just prefer Hattie. I mean there’s a couple reasons for that. I think she does a bit more acting in the background so even when the focus isn’t on her and with how little she’s given to do in those three series, she’s clearly trying. Also, the three series she’s in are my favourite era of Dwarf.

Yeah, I was just being flippant there, I think they’re both great. 

I do prefer Norman (his dry wit is more my style), but Hattie makes a silk purse out of a pig’s ear and I wonder what we would’ve gotten if the writers had given her the same amount of love and care.

[Rushy]

And I can never get over the way she was (very politely to give Rob and Doug credit) fired, and Norman keeps being brought back.

Or the way the cast are ignoring her in the commentaries. :(

[Professor Flibble]

Norman’s great, just prefer Hattie. I mean there’s a couple reasons for that. I think she does a bit more acting in the background so even when the focus isn’t on her and with how little she’s given to do in those three series, she’s clearly trying. Also, the three series she’s in are my favourite era of Dwarf.

Yeah, I was just being flippant there, I think they’re both great. 
I do prefer Norman (his dry wit is more my style), but Hattie makes a silk purse out of a pig’s ear and I wonder what we would’ve gotten if the writers had given her the same amount of love and care.

I mean, the fact Holly didn’t come back for most of the Dave era because of Norman, yet Hattie I’m certain would’ve leapt at the opportunity to come back.

[Professor Flibble]

And I can never get over the way she was (very politely to give Rob and Doug credit) fired, and Norman keeps being brought back.

Or the way the cast are ignoring her in the commentaries. :(

The way Heavy Science ends with not a single mention of Hattie leaving from any of the others except Doug. IIRC.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Norman is given more comedic stuff to do, and one or two actual routines.  Hattie mostly isn’t, but I think she portrays the character better somehow

Also worth noting that the series 1 & 2 sets aren’t designed to have Holly in sight anywhere so they have so squeeze Norman onto a monitor where they can.  III onwards they’ve clearly thought about Holly and put screens more directly into view of the shots so Hattie can be more present

[Flap Jack]

Oh, hello Satan

This is a bit harsh. You could at least downgrade the Hayridge-preferrers to being devil worshippers instead of being literally Satan himself.

If for nothing else, there’s only one Satan, so if preferring Hattie’s Holly to Norman’s gets you the role, I’m afraid I will have to fight Professor Flibble for the infernal throne.

Welcome to G&T by the way, Professor!

[Rushy]

I mean, the fact Holly didn’t come back for most of the Dave era because of Norman, yet Hattie I’m certain would’ve leapt at the opportunity to come back.

Doug did say he considered bringing Hattie back for the next special, but he may have just said that to placate the questioner. 

I honestly believe Rob and Doug (and maybe even the others) regret hiring her, they are just too polite to ever say it.

[Professor Flibble]

Norman is given more comedic stuff to do, and one or two actual routines.  Hattie mostly isn’t, but I think she portrays the character better somehow
Also worth noting that the series 1 & 2 sets aren’t designed to have Holly in sight anywhere so they have so squeeze Norman onto a monitor where they can.  III onwards they’ve clearly thought about Holly and put screens more directly into view of the shots so Hattie can be more present

Oh, true. Not trying to say I don’t love what Norman does. Probably one of the only positive points about Back in the Red for me is the grimace he makes at the end of Part One. “Sickbays on Standby” ruins it (as well as the context of the whole scene, obviously).

[clem]

I did type an explanation and then decided against posting it.

That’s too much knowledge to have to not get the joke, I’m sure. (and what an unpleasant joke, btw

It is, but I suppose being an amputee himself Doug feels permitted to make jokes like that. In his RHLSTP episode he talks about getting a letter from Bader aged 7, following the accident where he lost his leg. 

[Professor Flibble]

Oh, hello Satan
This is a bit harsh. You could at least downgrade the Hayridge-preferrers to being devil worshippers instead of being literally Satan himself.
If for nothing else, there’s only one Satan, so if preferring Hattie’s Holly to Norman’s gets you the role, I’m afraid I will have to fight Professor Flibble for the infernal throne.
Welcome to G&T by the way, Professor!

Thank you! It’s nice to meet you all!

Okay, but what if I went as far as to say I have a crush on Hattie, would that make me tantamount to Satan? Just wondering.

[Rushy]

I love Norman’s take, because I think his version had more of a sense of purpose.

He was the crew’s dad, they relied on him and he sort of represented the last vestige of the society/authority they knew. 

He was also Lister’s caretaker. Context aside, I really love the bit in Back in the Red where he confesses to creating situations in order to keep Lister’s mind occupied. At his best, Holly is a sort of omniscient figure that controls and meddles with their lives. But is just as flawed and clumsy as the rest of them. 

[clem]

this biographical film was made about him which I’m almost certain I’ve seen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reach_for_the_Sky

Played by Kenneth More, who also played The Admirable Crichton, whose name Kryten’s is a reference to, in the film adaptation. 

[Rushy]

Okay, but what if I went as far as to say I have a crush on Hattie, would that make me tantamount to Satan? Just wondering.

[Podey]

Hello, everyone! I’m Professor Flibble. Been a guest viewer for years but only now thought “Ah why not” and actually make an account.
Thought I’d start here. I don’t have many unpopular opinions really when it comes to Red Dwarf, I’m quite tame really. Series I-VI are the golden years, particularly III-VI, Series VIII is shit, that sort of thing.
I think my most unpopular opinion might be I prefer Hattie Hayridge to Norman Lovett.

Welcome! I have expressed recently a preference for Hattie, though that aligns with the fact she played the role when I first started watching.

[Professor Flibble]

Okay, but what if I went as far as to say I have a crush on Hattie, would that make me tantamount to Satan? Just wondering.

I welcome it!

(This was supposed to be a reply to Rushy. Still learning)

[Dax101]

I honestly believe Rob and Doug (and maybe even the others) regret hiring her, they are just too polite to ever say it.

Thats probably not true. After all the only reason they hired Hattie is because Norman practically got himself fired. So it was either no Holly for Series 3 onwards or a recast, and they chose a recast. Which does make sense, really. Holly was part of the show, and so the thought of not having the character probably felt strange. So there is nothing to regret really. It’s just unfortunate that as time went on they were moving too far away from what Holly could have a part in. And you can even still see it with Norman in Series 8 and TPL. You really have to make time for Holly because the character is easily forgotten about otherwise.

In terms of which Holly that Doug prefers, yeah i think he prefers Norman. I think instead of bringing back Hattie, he left the role open as a sign of good faith for Norman, as Norman got annoyed that he wasn’t in Back to Earth. Which seems to suggest Doug didn’t know where Holly fit into that story, which is why he wasn’t in Back to Earth. Which again goes back to the issue with Holly in general.

[Professor Flibble]

Welcome! I have expressed recently a preference for Hattie, though that aligns with the fact she played the role when I first started watching.

I was born around the time the show was being released on DVD, so my first memories were pretty vague and were basically of my dad watching it either on DVD or via repeats on Dave through the 2000s. But the comfiest era for me is definitely the era where Hattie’s Holly and Lister’s a slobby philosopher in a fluffy hat.

[clem]

If I really had to choose I’d say I prefer Hattie as Holly, but there’s very little in it. I definitely prefer her stand up to Norman’s, though. 

[Dax101]

I don’t like to compete them personally. I like Norman, and while Hattie got a little less to do overall, I think she still added something to the show that i appreciate.

Its an interesting thought to wonder what the show would have been like had Norman not left, because Rob and Doug clearly wanted to turn the show into something more adventurous and just because it was Norman, probably wouldn’t have changed much in regards to telling stories that struggled to really have a purpose for Holly. Does make you wonder if Norman would have ended up leaving anyway, out of pure spite for the lack of material.

[Professor Flibble]

I don’t like to compete them personally. I like Norman, and while Hattie got a little less to do overall, I think she still added something to the show that i appreciate.
Its an interesting thought to wonder what the show would have been like had Norman not left, because Rob and Doug clearly wanted to turn the show into something more adventurous and just because it was Norman, probably wouldn’t have changed much in regards to telling stories that struggled to really have a purpose for Holly. Does make you wonder if Norman would have ended up leaving anyway, out of pure spite for the lack of material.

I think it probably would’ve happened eventually, yeah. I mean he wanted his face on the screen in the first place.

[Turk Thrust]

I did type an explanation and then decided against posting it.

That’s too much knowledge to have to not get the joke, I’m sure. (and what an unpleasant joke, btw)

Yes, as Doug lost a leg himself, he obviously won’t have meant anything bad by it, but I imagine one reason it was cut is because it could have caused some offense.

[Professor Flibble]

If I really had to choose I’d say I prefer Hattie as Holly, but there’s very little in it. I definitely prefer her stand up to Norman’s, though. 

I haven’t actually seen any of their stand-up yet. Only other things I’ve seen the main lot do are, I watched one episode of Brittas Empire ages ago, thought it was a bit weak compared to Dwarf. Willing to give it another go sometime. Danny used to be in The Story Makers and MI High. And Hattie was in an episode of Jonathan Creek. I think it was the last one with Caroline Quentin? Does Carpool count? 

Think I’ve derailed the thread! Sorry about that.

[Turk Thrust]

I don’t like to compete them personally. I like Norman, and while Hattie got a little less to do overall, I think she still added something to the show that i appreciate.
Its an interesting thought to wonder what the show would have been like had Norman not left, because Rob and Doug clearly wanted to turn the show into something more adventurous and just because it was Norman, probably wouldn’t have changed much in regards to telling stories that struggled to really have a purpose for Holly. Does make you wonder if Norman would have ended up leaving anyway, out of pure spite for the lack of material.

I think it probably would’ve happened eventually, yeah. I mean he wanted his face on the screen in the first place.

I think Norman would probably have fought harder for material and Rob and Doug would probably have found a little more for him to do because they found it easier to write for his version of the character.

And while Norman may be a world class moaner, I will always forgive him for that because him fighting to get his face on screen was hugely important for the show. If there had only been 3 in vision characters for the first couple of series, we will never know whether the show would have worked and been recommissioned.  

[Dave]

Norman is great but weirdly I’m glad I only saw his episodes on the eventual repeats after I’d got used to the Hattie version in IV and V when I got into Red Dwarf, because then I didn’t view Hattie’s Holly as any kind of an attempt to imitate Norman. In my mind they both just did their own thing and are both equally good at it.

[Author]

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