Your Unpopular Red Dwarf Opinions

[Piplup2003]

The title says it all. What opinions do you have about Red Dwarf that no-one else seems to agree on?

For me, it’s that VIII is my second favourite series (behind V) and that I prefer Chloë over Claire as Kochanski (this may be partially influenced by the fact that I’ve met Chloë).

And please, no arguing.

Topic

[Jenuall]

VI was the first I watched go out live so it’s still in a certain way “default” Dwarf for me and I could comfortably make an argument for it being my favourite series. It’s not the best (that’s II or V) but it’s so settled in my affections that I find it hard to look beyond in many ways

[Podey]

I also like that there is some story carry-over between episodes. Adds a little depth. 

[Ian Symes]

VI is my favourite series. I think if I were to average out my scores for individual episodes, 2 and V might be above it, but in terms of the aesthetics, the vibe, the character dynamics, how it makes me feel when I watch it, VI is out in front. There’s a difference between “favourite” and “best”.

[Warbodog]

VI (minus Psirens) was the first series I properly saw, then was the only one I saw repeated before VII and working through the rest, so it’s one of the most nostalgic things ever. But when I rebooted in the DVD era and fixated on each series in order, I was disappointed to find I liked the VI approach less and it feels a bit shaky and veering into being a different show. Still has a couple of episodes in my top 5-10 of all time, so could be worse (Gunmen is definitely benefiting from the nostalgia though).

[Warbodog]

I also like that there is some story carry-over between episodes. Adds a little depth. 

I love series 1 for this as well. Rimmer increasingly losing his hold over Lister, Cat learning how things work, Lister learning how cats work, actual cliffhanger and tease for the future.

[International Debris]

VI tends to be seen as a high point or a low point of the bubble, I find. It’s definitely a low point for me. I still like it, there are lots of great gags and a few interesting ideas, but the running gags, the space action adventure format, the relative lack of character-led plots, the lack of pathos, it just doesn’t hold up in the way the earlier series do for me. 

Interestingly, the first time I showed my partner Red Dwarf, she assumed VI was the series after Rob had left because she thought it felt incredibly different and unfunny.

fwiw, it was the first series I taped and the one I watched most as a kid, but that’s not enough to stop it just feeling a bit… slight.

Doug Dwarf doesn’t have many sequels, but it has a lot of callbacks. Not that the bubble never referenced the show’s past, but it was very rare and usually just for a one-off gag. Doug Dwarf brings back/references:

The time drive, Ace, Kochanski, the Kinitowawi (twice), simulants (three times), the ocean moon with the Esperanto, Selby, Chen, Petersen, Hollister, the original bunk room (twice), the luck and sexual magnetism viruses, Duane Dibbley, future echoes, the Om Song, hallucinogenic squids, Rimmer failing his astro-navs, precognitive ship’s computers, Lister being his own dad, the post pod, Rimmer catching Lister “having sex with” a mechanical object, Justice World, multiple Rimmer’s being a bad idea, the Nova 5, Polymorph, Hitler being a character, Rimmer’s first kiss, Talkie Toaster, the opening scene of The End, everybody’s dead Dave, Hollister (again), and the Cat arks.

Not saying that every one of those is bad, but Doug’s era does it significantly more than the bubble era.

[Ben Saunders]

VI was my favourite as a child/young person by a country mile and that counts for something.

[Flap Jack]

It’s definitely not unheard of for Series VI to be considered the first “bad” series. I remember watching the SF Debris review videos for Red Dwarf way back when (I’m not sure the videos are still available, because they were in the Blip.tv era of video reviews), and he proclaimed that Series VI was when the show went downhill like it was a widely agreed upon fact. I was SHOCKED.

Out of curiosity, I looked back over my Coral Canvass scores, and Series VI had my second lowest average score of the bubble, above only Series 2, so if my opinion of Stasis Leak were more typical then VI would be the worst of the bubble. It is still absolutely in the bubble though. Series 1-VI all got 7-9 averages, Series VII a mid 4, Series VIII a mid 1, and even the best Dave series only got a high 6.

[Dave]

Yeah, but as seen in the Smegazines, fans also thought a lot of V was shit when they first saw it.

Fans are stupid.

[Rushy]

are those contemporary reviews available somewhere online?

[Unrumble]

Out of curiosity, I looked back over my Coral Canvass scores

Did you just note them down yourself for posterity, or is there some way of checking what you voted on G&T? I’ve done some searching, but no luck.

[Warbodog]

Someone on an old consumer review site (early 2000s) told me that Series IV was where he and Red Dwarf part company. He also had extremely specific thresholds for Doctor Who being largely worthless after the Talons of Weng-Chiang, Pink Floyd after Dark Side of the Moon and no doubt many more things.

[Flap Jack]

Did you just note them down yourself for posterity, or is there some way of checking what you voted on G&T? I’ve done some searching, but no luck.

I just took some screencaps of the submission page before I was finished.

I actually assumed that G&T would email people copies of their submissions like they did with the Pearl Poll, but I did it just in case, and it turned out to be a good idea.

[Turk Thrust]

I can certainly understand some of the criticisms of VI. For example, the formulaic nature of the scripts, having the triple sequel, and Rimmerworld not being exceptional (I think it’s often a worrying sign when several years pass on a show, but a character’s personality seems unchanged).

That said, it has some of the funniest lines in Dwarf and there are some classic episodes and scenes.

I also remember watching it as it was broadcast and feeling like I was in safe hands. Obviously, later on I analyzed it to death, but at the time it didn’t feel like Rob or Doug were going to write something that I wouldn’t enjoy.

Skip ahead to when ‘Tikka to Ride’ was broadcast and I was mildly aware of the split, but hadn’t followed things in detail. I remember being so unimpressed by the episode (the start and ending in particular) that I didn’t watch all of that series at the time. 

[International Debris]

Pink Floyd after Dark Side of the Moon

Not uncommon. Dark Side is the last time they functioned fully as an equal band without everything becoming either Roger-led or Dave-led. When I was first getting into them I noticed there was something about the tone of the late ’70s albums that just felt a bit less like a unified band (I think it’s been commented on by at least one band member, too).

[Ben Saunders]

Doctor Who being largely worthless after the Talons of Weng-Chiang

Well yes it never quite reaches those heights again, but you’d have to have absurdly high standards to just stop immediately. Fang Rock and Fendahl are good, Sun Makers is very obviously low-budget and silly but still quite good. The less said about Invisible Enemy and Underworld the better. I like The Invasion of Time but it is a bit of a shambles. Ribos is ok, Pirate Planet is the point where the show starts to become extremely difficult to take seriously, although it has some nice moments. You know what, he might be right.

[Spaceworm Jim]

I find the attitude that once a show has reached it’s peak it’s worthless to watch after that moment unbearable to be honest. I will not bear it.

[clem]

I think of VI as the most purely fun Red Dwarf and one of my favourite series. I broadly agree with the criticisms that are usually levelled at it, but none of that stuff ever hinders my enjoyment. It does have less heart than the previous series, but it more than makes up for that in other areas, in a way that I don’t think some of the Dave era manages. 

[tombow]

someone did a list a while back of what the biggest fan debates were in the bubble era. VI being bad and 1 being boring were two of them I think. And should Kryten have joined the cast, was series 3 too different and dumbed down, etc.

[Rushy]

Kryten is the ultimate mixed bag for me. Love our Bob or Ross, love all the great material he’s gotten. 

But the I and II team were so perfect, and Kryten’s presence really muddled those dynamics into something that was never quite as coherent again. 

[Ben Saunders]

If they were running out of ideas by VI after changing the format, imagine a VI where they were still shipbound with just 3 dudes and a computer.

[Flap Jack]

I mean I guess this is why it’s a debate, but to me the only downside of adding Kryten was how it diminished Holly’s role. In terms of the overall character dynamics it was an absolute win, and it made clear how imperfect the Series 1-2 setup actually was.

Not that the Series 1-2 character dynamics were bad, but they were imperfect in terms of variety. Rimmer was adversarial with Lister, Cat was aloof with him, and Holly was mainly there for them to get annoyed with. All funny, but throwing in someone who is extremely intelligent and compassionate but also deferential and respectful to Lister – meaning he would be both a different personality to bounce off of and someone who would naturally clash with Rimmer – just added so much more mileage. 

[Rushy]

Rimmer was adversarial with Lister, Cat was aloof with him, and Holly was mainly there for them to get annoyed with. 

I think that’s a little reductive. There were plenty of times when they deviated from this. Especially by series 2 when they were all noticeably more comfortable with each other. 

[Flap Jack]

Somewhat reductive, yes. Series 2 did a great job of softening Rimmer and Cat so the 3 of them felt more like a gang, but doing that only gets you so far.

I guess Series 2 was like a bridging series between the Series 1 style of Red Dwarf where the stories are built off the main characters either doing their own thing or being in direct conflict, and the Series III+ style where the stories are more about them being a team who go on adventures together (most commonly at least). It’s a transition, and a key step in that transition just happens to be “Put a Kryten in it”.

[Moonlight]

I’m always arguing that Series 2 has as much Series III in it as Series 1 but it’s just not as obvious when III looks totally different.

[Rushy]

I’m always arguing that Series 2 has as much Series III in it as Series 1 but it’s just not as obvious when III looks totally different.

I don’t really see it. I think the characterisation in I-II vs III is very distinct. 

Not that there aren’t significant differences between I and II, but I think the leap from II to III is much greater. Holly is much less relevant, Kryten throws a spanner in the dynamics, the Cat is suddenly a normal dude, Lister is way more active. 

You could probably make a case for Rimmer being the same, but I would still argue the way he’s presented to the audience is different. The original JMC uniform was a work of genius.

*It conveys the idea of a jobsworth who thinks he’s hot shit because he wears epaulettes.

*It signifies Rimmer’s attempts at recreating his past life (his refusal to wear anything else).

*The contrast with Lister’s dirty uniform. 

The tunic – nicely designed as it is – is more of a generic sci-fi costume and removes Rimmer from his identity as Second Technician. Leaving him as just a neurotic funny man. 

[Ben Saunders]

Yeah, the tunic doesn’t really say anything about his character other than he looks like a tosser. “Captain Emerald” is pretty funny, though.

[Technopeasant]

I’m always arguing

But I mean, we all are.

[Flap Jack]

In terms of aesthetics and cast, Series 2 is undeniably more of a piece with Series 1 than Series III, but in terms of the way the core trio are characterised and in terms of plotting, it’s much more of a Series III prologue than a Series 1 epilogue. They were completely wrong about it being actively embarrassing or bad, but there’s a reason Rob and Doug were so reluctant to let Series 1 be repeated, and didn’t extend the same restriction to Series 2 – and I don’t think it was because Series 1 didn’t have an inflatable banana in the bunk room.

Like I can’t imagine Series 1 Cat just willingly going on the time travel excursion in Stasis Leak, or the quest to find the black box recorder in Thanks for the Memory, or the trip down to the hologram projection suite in Queeg. (Or at least not without being given extra incentive, anyway.) Even if he’s not quite at the “consoling Lister over Rimmer and Kryten’s presumed deaths” level yet.

Also, I think you’re being a bit harsh about the Captain Emerald outfit. It absolutely still communicates that Rimmer sees himself as a serious high ranking professional compared to Lister who’s always dressed casually. It just does so with a more overt sci-fi aesthetic.

[Dave]

Like I can’t imagine Series 1 Cat just willingly going on the time travel excursion in Stasis Leak, or the quest to find the black box recorder in Thanks for the Memory, or the trip down to the hologram projection suite in Queeg. (Or at least not without being given extra incentive, anyway.)

[Flap Jack]

[Ben Saunders]

Since we spoke of Who in here, it must have been tough to be a Doctor Who fan in the 70s and get fed Power of Kroll and Armageddon Factor in quick succession. “Maybe it’ll be better next season”, you ask, before getting hit with Destiny of the Daleks. City of Death is a brief moment of respite before you get hit with Creature From The pit (which is ok but Tom Baker kisses a giant green penis), Nightmare of Eden and Horns of Nimon. Dear oh dear.

[Turk Thrust]

Having just rewatched Krysis, I would say that much as I love Robert’s portrayal of Kryten, it feels like he was struggling a little bit by this point. Not that he was terrible, but it feels like he’s reaching for his lines and is never quite certain of the script. I guess that had always been the case to some extent, but it was more obvious by the Dave era.

Dominic Coleman’s Butler is excellent, however.

And I know it’s inevitable that Dwarf will sometimes have jokes similar to other shows, but “The Best of Mozart” (I’m Alan Partridge) and “Back of the throat.” (Frasier) are two pretty famous gags.

[Technopeasant]

Since we spoke of Who in here, it must have been tough to be a Doctor Who fan in the 70s and get fed Power of Kroll and Armageddon Factor in quick succession. “Maybe it’ll be better next season”, you ask, before getting hit with Destiny of the Daleks. City of Death is a brief moment of respite before you get hit with Creature From The pit (which is ok but Tom Baker kisses a giant green penis), Nightmare of Eden and Horns of Nimon. Dear oh dear.

And then a looooong respite before you got Shada…

I won’t have a bad word said about Graham Crowden in Horns of Nimon though.

[Rushy]

City of Death has never done much for me. I don’t dislike it, but it’s so lightweight (neither the Doctor nor the villain appears particularly bothered by anything) that I can’t muster up any feelings for it. I get bored. 

The same is not true of Shada, which I consider my favourite Fourth Doctor story (in its 2017 version)

[Ben Saunders]

City of Death is after Destiny, which I’m on right now, so I’ll see if my opinion on it changes this time ’round. It was the first Classic serial I really watched many, many moons ago because an article suggested it, and here I am 20 years later still watching Classic Who, so it was clearly good enough to get me interested. The interplay between Baker and Ward is delightful and “you’re a very beautiful woman, probably” is iconic, but I do remember the plot sort of not making sense.

I’ve only watched Shada once and I don’t remember much about it.

Having trashed Destiny of the Daleks earlier, episode one is actually quite good, mostly thanks to Adams/Baker/Ward.

[Technopeasant]

Shada is worth it just for Christopher Neame.

[Rushy]

I love how 2017 Neame plays it totally differently from 1980 Neame

[Turk Thrust]

Sorry to bring the thread back to Red Dwarf …

I re-watched Epideme again recently and would say the plot is one of the strongest in the whole of the post bubble era. Obviously, Rimmer’s absence is a huge loss (and it’s interesting that Paul Alexander’s original idea was for Epideme to pass into his bloodstream unaware he was a hologram), but if people can look beyond that, I would say it’s a slightly underrated episode.

Interesting, also, that it was Ed Bye’s idea to make Caroline Carmen a zombie.

There are pluses and minuses to Doug taking on so much in the Dave era, but the other collaborators in Series VII contributed a lot, including some of the positive aspects of that series.

[Technopeasant]

I have always had a soft spot for Epideme and have never understood the hate Gary Martin gets sometimes. He’s nowhere near a Kary Shale.

[Technopeasant]

I love how 2017 Neame plays it totally differently from 1980 Neame

Not that 2017 Ward and Baker are identical either.

[Moonlight]

I would say it’s a slightly underrated episode

I’ve been saying that for years. It’s the point at which VII actually starts to kind of work on its own merits.

[Technopeasant]

It’s the point at which VII actually starts to kind of work on its own merits.

I probably would have been perfectly happy with a Series VIII that followed directly on from the vibe set up in Epideme and Nanarchy, with Chris and Norman coming back a bonus.

[Warbodog]

Yeah, Epideme was one that I didn’t watch for decades just for it being in VII and I was very pleasantly surprised by it, aside from the whiny Kryten stuff. It’s the only VII episode I properly like, with Tikka to Ride almost being there. I like it when VII goes gross and grim (chopping off the arm, cannibalism), it suits the style.

[Technopeasant]

Which is why it is rather perplexing that it was Paul Alexander that also brought us such “greats” as as Krytie TV and Pete Part 2 and almost brought us Phwoaarr.

[Turk Thrust]

It’s the point at which VII actually starts to kind of work on its own merits.

I probably would have been perfectly happy with a Series VIII that followed directly on from the vibe set up in Epideme and Nanarchy, with Chris and Norman coming back a bonus.

Yeah, it’s interesting on the Series VIII DVD when Doug says that he stopped listening to people and did his own thing. He (and that documentary) frame that as being a positive thing in that VIII was much better than VII, but maybe he should have listened a little more.

It’s also interesting to think about Paul Alexander’s contributions. For VII, he was clearly given the brief that they were writing a sitcom that had some fairly serious science fiction in it and hence we got Epideme. For VIII, the brief was presumably more “Men Behaving Badly in space” which is why we ended up with Krytie TV.

I used to be quite harsh about his writing, but he could only work within the confines of what Doug wanted. 

[Warbodog]

I’ll have to watch some of Paul Alexander’s non-Dwarf stuff to judge his abilities. Anyone know if these are any good, or if S Club 1-6 was more the “bubble” era?

[Turk Thrust]

I’ll have to watch some of Paul Alexander’s non-Dwarf stuff to judge his abilities. Anyone know if these are any good, or if S Club 1-6 was more the “bubble” era?

Ha. I don’t think anyone would suggest his record is up there with Rob and Doug’s, but he wrote for Les Dawson, Jasper Carrott, and a bunch of other comedians which is not to be sniffed at.

There is one specific area where I don’t think his writing necessarily worked for Dwarf. I recently re-read one of his interviews and he said that he studied previous Dwarf episodes and one way that Doug used him was by saying, “This scene needs more laughs.” I think too often that involved trying to ape the simile jokes from VI, but Rob and Doug’s jokes were generally much funnier (and sometimes more disgusting). For example, “Bigger than King Kong’s first dump of the day,” is a funny line imo.

For Epideme alone, Doug and Paul came up with the following much weaker efforts:

“This place is harder to get into than an airline Chicken Kiev.”

“… this room’s hotter than an English beer.”

“In 48 hours I’m going to be deader than a Saturday night in Salt Lake City.”

“I look worse than the Grim Reaper’s passport photo.”

[Moonlight]

I like the Salt Lake City joke. Utah is full of Mormons.

[Frank Smeghammer]

I like the Salt Lake City joke too, and for the record I am British, not American. I just know Utah is Mormon Country.

It’s one of those jokes where it either tickles you or it doesn’t. Certainly you can say it’s not a big laugh. It’s either boring or mildly amusing and that’s the problem

[Author]

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