Your Unpopular Red Dwarf Opinions

[Piplup2003]

The title says it all. What opinions do you have about Red Dwarf that no-one else seems to agree on?

For me, it’s that VIII is my second favourite series (behind V) and that I prefer Chloë over Claire as Kochanski (this may be partially influenced by the fact that I’ve met Chloë).

And please, no arguing.

Topic

[Dax101]

 I think Norman would probably have fought harder for material and Rob and Doug would probably have found a little more for him to do because they found it easier to write for his version of the character. 

Considering how he was written for Series 8, i ain’t sure about that. In the end its going to come down to their ambition to write bold episodes like say Back to Reality vs what material they can give Norman in episodes like that. Which would still be an issue.

The way he was written in Series 8 felt like the way you would expect the writers to desperately be looking for material for him. For example how much did Norman appear in Cassandra?

[Turk Thrust]

Norman is great but weirdly I’m glad I only saw his episodes on the eventual repeats after I’d got used to the Hattie version in IV and V when I got into Red Dwarf, because then I didn’t view Hattie’s Holly as any kind of an attempt to imitate Norman. In my mind they both just did their own thing and are both equally good at it.

Yes, I know what you mean. Series III was the first one that I watched as it was broadcast and I certainly didn’t see Hattie as a weak link. Having said that, it shows how good Norman’s performance was that when I went back to watch the first couple of series, I never thought, “Who’s this other guy???”

And I don’t think Hattie was particularly imitating Norman as that was her style anyway. I can understand why Norman was irked, though, and he later clarified some of his comments on the DVD. He felt that they’d promised to do something different with the character (and he used Kathy Burke auditioning as an example of them trying), but when he saw Hattie’s portrayal he felt she was just a carbon copy.

Obviously, he only has himself to blame for walking away, but I have to feel some sympathy for Norman. He had to watch Red Dwarf becoming more and more successful while his own career failed to reach any great heights. In the mid 90s, a friend of mine had to book a cheap comedian to do a gig at the local university. Norman was the cheapest one available that anyone had heard of, so he got the booking (and was very funny). 

[Turk Thrust]

 I think Norman would probably have fought harder for material and Rob and Doug would probably have found a little more for him to do because they found it easier to write for his version of the character. 
Considering how he was written for Series 8, i ain’t sure about that. In the end its going to come down to their ambition to write bold episodes like say Back to Reality vs what material they can give Norman in episodes like that. Which would still be an issue.

The way he was written in Series 8 felt like the way you would expect the writers to desperately be looking for material for him. For example how much did Norman appear in Cassandra?

I think that’s a separate thing. Series VIII can’t be compared to the rest of Dwarf in that sense.

Plus, if Norman had still been part of Series III, he would have had the clout of being one of the original and regular cast members.

When Norman returned in Series VII, you have the weird situation of him kind of, but not entirely, being a main cast member. Which is part of the reason there was the Back to Earth fiasco of him expecting to be in it and Doug not including him in the original scripts.

If Norman had stayed for Series III, the dynamic would have been very different. Maybe Rob and Doug would still have decided to lose Holly at some point, but getting rid of an original actor and character would have been a different thing to letting Hattie leave.  

[Flap Jack]

I honestly believe Rob and Doug (and maybe even the others) regret hiring her, they are just too polite to ever say it.

Wow, you’re certainly not pulling any punches today! Although if you just mean that they regret keeping Holly while adding Kryten and not that they specifically regret casting Hattie instead of another actor, then I can downgrade my offence to mere disagreement.

Because Rob and Doug definitely proved with Series VI that the show could work without well without Holly, but it was still a lesser series for her absence.

I love Norman’s take, because I think his version had more of a sense of purpose.

He was the crew’s dad, they relied on him and he sort of represented the last vestige of the society/authority they knew.

Holly being more managerial and giving Lister and Rimmer more overt direction for things worked well for the early series set up, but once they were acting with greater confidence and independence (and also had a Kryten) I don’t think that would have gelled. Hattie’s interpretation was perfect for the Series III+ way of doing things, even if she was underutilised. Series III-V is peak Dwarf, and this is in no small part due to this era having the best, most definitive cast configuration. It’s a darn shame that Doug never realised that Hattie was part of the golden formula and brought her back.

And I think the way Norman’s Holly is handled post Series 2 proves the point. In Series VIII they try to make him one of the gang again and it’s an unmitigated failure (though admittedly it’s hard to separate this from the general crapness of the series), in Skipper he’s just a fun cameo and he only interacts with Rimmer, and in The Promised Land he’s mostly either in villain mode or separated from everyone.

He was also Lister’s caretaker. Context aside, I really love the bit in
Back in the Red where he confesses to creating situations in order to
keep Lister’s mind occupied.

Even outside of the extremely dumb context, I still dislike this idea. Queeg worked because Holly had a specific grievance, and the crew were never in actual danger due to it. But if he’s (somehow) personally manufacturing an indeterminate number of episode plots across the whole of Series 1-V, wherein the crew and ship are frequently in serious distress and danger, then that just makes him a prick.

[Dax101]

I suppose you would have to look at Series 3 and 4 and figure out where would Norman appear in that series. Because chances are those stories were not written just because Norman wasn’t there. They were written because they were the stories they wanted to tell. Once Kryten joined, he got focused on quite quickly with The Last Day, Camille and DNA. And he wasn’t an original cast member.
You would sorta have to assume there would be major changes to how Rob and Doug told these stories if Norman was still there. But would there be?

[Professor Flibble]

It’s a darn shame that Doug never realised that Hattie was part of the golden formula and brought her back. 

One thing that’s especially painful about the new special not being made is Doug saying he was considering bringing Hattie back. I feel like if we do get one more special, and it’s the last one. I really want Hattie in it. Well I’d say that even if it wasn’t the last.

[Turk Thrust]

One thing I will say is that, even allowing for the fact that the material was underwritten, Norman would have done a better job with the opening gags that were considered for Series III (where you can see Hattie’s eyes moving as she reads the autocue).

[Rushy]

 But if he’s (somehow) personally manufacturing an indeterminate number of episode plots across the whole of Series 1-V, wherein the crew and ship are frequently in serious distress and danger, then that just makes him a prick.

Yeah, but… why not?

His job is to keep the last human alive and sane. With that responsibility, I don’t think fear of being a prick would stop Holly. His entire existence is bound to babysitting Lister at this point.

[Flap Jack]

Yeah, but… why not?

His job is to keep the last human ALIVE and sane. With that
responsibility, I don’t think fear of being a prick would stop Holly.
His entire existence is bound to babysitting Lister at this point.

I have added some extra emphasis to your post to highlight one reason why not.

But another big reason is that I simply don’t want Holly to have that kind of relationship with the crew. I want him/her to be a genuine friend to them, and that means having the baseline level of respect for them needed to be honest with them about their situation. I don’t want a Holly who sees themselves as above needing the approval or consent of the crew they’re meant to be serving, and who sees the crew effectively as laboratory mice that they’re just trying to get to behave in a certain way at whatever cost. If Holly genuinely was Truman Show-ing Lister, that’s not them looking after him like a father, that’s abuse (although I guess abuse isn’t… inherently non-fatherly).

Also, I admit I’m not an expert in psychology, but if the priority is Lister’s sanity, I have a feeling that subjecting someone to a series of unnecessary life-or-death traumas might be more damaging to their psyche than simply allowing them to become bored.

Maybe the “diversions” Holly contrives to keep Lister occupied are actually just a steady stream of new board games? That would be more reasonable.

[Technopeasant]

I like the Salt Lake City joke. Utah is full of Mormons.

[gerrydelasel]

Just my opinion but

[Professor Flibble]

Wasn’t it just Chris Veale who did that? I don’t remember that ever being a feature on the models.

[gerrydelasel]

Exactly.

[Professor Flibble]

Tbf it’s the same series where Starbug has a giant wind turbine and miles and miles of ducts (dimensional anomalies bla bla bla), so at that point, was there anything they got right about Starbug? 

[Podey]

Was it in The Promised Land where the legs retract entirely, so you just see the feet sticking out?

I don’t mind it, to be honest, with the legs in standard position it looks like something that belongs on the ground that is flying and with them facing back it looks like something that belongs in flight.

[Podey]

I thought it was when they landed on the moon but looks like it might just be the angle.

[Professor Flibble]

Yeah I think it’s when they land on the moon.

I think I can buy that because if the rear section’s detached and it needs to land, it’d be like a way to balance the front two sections. 

[Podey]

You quoted between my posting and realising I was wrong and editing it but, yeah, that would totally make sense!

[Professor Flibble]

You quoted between my posting and realising I was wrong and editing it but, yeah, that would totally make sense!

Haha that’s good to hear, I thought I was talking utter nonsense for a second there!

[Dax101]

I get the feeling they tried to do that with the legs in the early days but for whatever reason they didn’t put it on screen. 

Personally i think it loses a lot of personallity with the legs going back. its obviously trying to look like a fly but still.

[Dave]

If it can put the legs back it should be able to land “standing up” too.

[Flap Jack]

Well now I’m annoyed that Bodyswap didn’t end with a White MidgetStarbug/Blue Midget mecha fight. I want to see them both upright and throwing hands.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Yeah. I get the argument from Doug that the legs going back is more aerodynamic. But this is a cheap JMC transport vehicle. It absolutely loses character looking efficient. 

[Moonlight]

What if Starbug 2 just always has the legs up and they’re in it from Back to Reality on?

[Rushy]

Maybe the “diversions” Holly contrives to keep Lister occupied are actually just a steady stream of new board games? That would be more reasonable.

I wonder if Holly AI-generated a thousand Friday the 13th movies for him to watch?

[gerrydelasel]

For Epideme alone, Doug and Paul came up with the following much weaker efforts:
“This place is harder to get into than an airline Chicken Kiev.”

“… this room’s hotter than an English beer.”

I just watched Epideme again because your comment made me curious (I haven’t watched it in years).
 IMO “harder to get into than an airline Chicken Kiev” is classic Lister, no notes. 
But “hotter than an English beer” is absolute cringe, especially coming from Cat. I mean, ‘warmer’ I would have let pass, but hot? Hot?? That doesn’t even make sense. Of all the hot things in the universe you could riff on, beer of any description does not make the list.

Additional: Epideme is clearly a spoof of John Carpenter’s The Thing.

[Warbodog]

Fan theory: Lister misinterpreted the title of a historical prequel, Friday the 13th, 1649.

[Rushy]

But “hotter than an English beer” is absolute cringe, especially coming from Cat. I mean, ‘warmer’ I would have let pass, but hot? Hot?? That doesn’t even make sense.

I think it’s an exaggerated sneering joke about how insane it is for beer to be consumed warm. Just a general diss towards the British. 

[gerrydelasel]

I think it’s an exaggerated sneering joke about how insane it is for
beer to be consumed warm. Just a general diss towards the British.

I know what the joke is trying to do, it just fails by using the word ‘hot’ which makes it nonsensical. It makes little sense for the Cat to reference anything to do with England in the first place, and even less sense for him to compare a hot room to a naturally-warm thing.* A logical joke is “this place is hotter than a vending machine coffee” or “hotter than Sydney Sweeney in a bikini” or whatever. It stops working when the thing you’re comparing it to is not hot to start with. It’s so bizarre I have to wonder wonder why Doug didn’t edit it.

*Yes I know British beer isn’t actually warm; that’s what makes ‘warm English beer’ a classic joke.

[Flap Jack]

So is the premise that English people actually choose to drink their beers warm, or that English pubs are so crap that the beers aren’t chilled? 

I know for certain it isn’t that England has such a hot climate that it’s logistically impossible to keep beers cold.

[Dave]

It’s just that traditional British ales, stouts etc. traditionally aren’t chilled to the same degree that a lot of beers from other traditions are. They’re not warm exactly but not served as cold as other beers.

Over time it just became one of those hoary old clichés about the British – like bad teeth, drinking tea, and violent football hooliganism.

[Warbodog]

It makes little sense for the Cat to reference anything to do with England in the first place, and even less sense for him to compare a hot room to a naturally-warm thing.

Continuity error not my fault.

[Flap Jack]

Over time it just became one of those hoary old clichés about the British – like bad teeth, drinking tea, and violent football hooliganism.

Ah, I see, fair enough I guess!
Still not a good joke.

[Ben Saunders]

This room’s hotter than Jenna Coleman when she was on that volcano planet

[Podey]

This room’s hotter than

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Bitters don’t need to be refrigerated, but the idea is they are served at cellar temp which is cool enough. And it is. Hell even straight off the shelf out the bottle of fine for a lot of bitter. 

But yeah it’s fucking crazy to refer to them as “hot”. 

[Dave]

[Warbodog]

I remember when I first drank beer, I naively chose Budweiser because of the adverts. Proper, bottled beer, refrigerated to taste of fuck all.

[Professor Flibble]

I hate most alcoholic drinks on their own. I mix pretty much anything alcoholic with coke.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I hate most alcoholic drinks on their own. I mix pretty much anything alcoholic with coke.

This and Coke 

[Professor Flibble]

Yes.

[Ben Saunders]

I like Bud Light, but then again alcohol all tastes like crap really. Just some of the crap is crap crap.

Edit: I just remembered Kopparberg has a couple nice flavours so I’d like to retract this statement. It’s just everything else like whisky, wine and beer (and lager and IPAs and mostly everything that comes under the umbrella of “a pint”) that is dire

[Professor Flibble]

I like cocktails, actually. But yeah, beer, wine, all that, not for me tbh.

[Rushy]

I concur on the subject of alcohol. 

[Ben Saunders]

I like cocktails, actually

I refuse to spend one million pounds so I’ve only ever had one cocktail, and I was pretty immediately sick due to the insane sugar content of it. I’m Scottish so how “good” a pint is is a combination of how cheap it is and if it doesn’t actively make me retch. If it’s cheap enough I’ll deal with the retching. 

[Professor Flibble]

Idk if I’ve tried Bud Light, but yeah I’d probably find that just as crap. Thatcher’s Gold I think I…didn’t…mind…? It wasn’t great, but it wasn’t absolutely terrible

[Moonlight]

I think everyone just needs to admit they’re trying to get drunk and stop pretending they actually enjoy the flavor of alcohol.

[Professor Flibble]

I think everyone just needs to admit they’re trying to get drunk and stop pretending they actually enjoy the flavor of alcohol.

Oh 100% this is basically why I mix coke with most things, it still kinda tastes like shit but it tastes marginally less like shit so I can get drunk 

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I think everyone just needs to admit they’re trying to get drunk and stop pretending they actually enjoy the flavor of alcohol.

I’ve reached the age where I’m tired of being drunk and more tired of being hungover but I love a beer. Hence the above picture.

I’ll smash cocktails on a night out too. But not a single cocktail tastes like the booze that’s in it. Which is sort of the point. 

The only booze that’s taste like “booze” is neat spirits and the cheapest wine you can get. 

[Professor Flibble]

I’ve reached the age where I’m tired of being drunk and more tired of being hungover but I love a beer.

I’ve still not had a hangover. Just a smidgen of a migraine each time 

[Author]

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