Your Unpopular Red Dwarf Opinions

[Piplup2003]

The title says it all. What opinions do you have about Red Dwarf that no-one else seems to agree on?

For me, it’s that VIII is my second favourite series (behind V) and that I prefer Chloë over Claire as Kochanski (this may be partially influenced by the fact that I’ve met Chloë).

And please, no arguing.

Topic

[Dax101]

 I think Norman would probably have fought harder for material and Rob and Doug would probably have found a little more for him to do because they found it easier to write for his version of the character. 

Considering how he was written for Series 8, i ain’t sure about that. In the end its going to come down to their ambition to write bold episodes like say Back to Reality vs what material they can give Norman in episodes like that. Which would still be an issue.

The way he was written in Series 8 felt like the way you would expect the writers to desperately be looking for material for him. For example how much did Norman appear in Cassandra?

[Turk Thrust]

Norman is great but weirdly I’m glad I only saw his episodes on the eventual repeats after I’d got used to the Hattie version in IV and V when I got into Red Dwarf, because then I didn’t view Hattie’s Holly as any kind of an attempt to imitate Norman. In my mind they both just did their own thing and are both equally good at it.

Yes, I know what you mean. Series III was the first one that I watched as it was broadcast and I certainly didn’t see Hattie as a weak link. Having said that, it shows how good Norman’s performance was that when I went back to watch the first couple of series, I never thought, “Who’s this other guy???”

And I don’t think Hattie was particularly imitating Norman as that was her style anyway. I can understand why Norman was irked, though, and he later clarified some of his comments on the DVD. He felt that they’d promised to do something different with the character (and he used Kathy Burke auditioning as an example of them trying), but when he saw Hattie’s portrayal he felt she was just a carbon copy.

Obviously, he only has himself to blame for walking away, but I have to feel some sympathy for Norman. He had to watch Red Dwarf becoming more and more successful while his own career failed to reach any great heights. In the mid 90s, a friend of mine had to book a cheap comedian to do a gig at the local university. Norman was the cheapest one available that anyone had heard of, so he got the booking (and was very funny). 

[Turk Thrust]

 I think Norman would probably have fought harder for material and Rob and Doug would probably have found a little more for him to do because they found it easier to write for his version of the character. 
Considering how he was written for Series 8, i ain’t sure about that. In the end its going to come down to their ambition to write bold episodes like say Back to Reality vs what material they can give Norman in episodes like that. Which would still be an issue.

The way he was written in Series 8 felt like the way you would expect the writers to desperately be looking for material for him. For example how much did Norman appear in Cassandra?

I think that’s a separate thing. Series VIII can’t be compared to the rest of Dwarf in that sense.

Plus, if Norman had still been part of Series III, he would have had the clout of being one of the original and regular cast members.

When Norman returned in Series VII, you have the weird situation of him kind of, but not entirely, being a main cast member. Which is part of the reason there was the Back to Earth fiasco of him expecting to be in it and Doug not including him in the original scripts.

If Norman had stayed for Series III, the dynamic would have been very different. Maybe Rob and Doug would still have decided to lose Holly at some point, but getting rid of an original actor and character would have been a different thing to letting Hattie leave.  

[Flap Jack]

I honestly believe Rob and Doug (and maybe even the others) regret hiring her, they are just too polite to ever say it.

Wow, you’re certainly not pulling any punches today! Although if you just mean that they regret keeping Holly while adding Kryten and not that they specifically regret casting Hattie instead of another actor, then I can downgrade my offence to mere disagreement.

Because Rob and Doug definitely proved with Series VI that the show could work without well without Holly, but it was still a lesser series for her absence.

I love Norman’s take, because I think his version had more of a sense of purpose.

He was the crew’s dad, they relied on him and he sort of represented the last vestige of the society/authority they knew.

Holly being more managerial and giving Lister and Rimmer more overt direction for things worked well for the early series set up, but once they were acting with greater confidence and independence (and also had a Kryten) I don’t think that would have gelled. Hattie’s interpretation was perfect for the Series III+ way of doing things, even if she was underutilised. Series III-V is peak Dwarf, and this is in no small part due to this era having the best, most definitive cast configuration. It’s a darn shame that Doug never realised that Hattie was part of the golden formula and brought her back.

And I think the way Norman’s Holly is handled post Series 2 proves the point. In Series VIII they try to make him one of the gang again and it’s an unmitigated failure (though admittedly it’s hard to separate this from the general crapness of the series), in Skipper he’s just a fun cameo and he only interacts with Rimmer, and in The Promised Land he’s mostly either in villain mode or separated from everyone.

He was also Lister’s caretaker. Context aside, I really love the bit in
Back in the Red where he confesses to creating situations in order to
keep Lister’s mind occupied.

Even outside of the extremely dumb context, I still dislike this idea. Queeg worked because Holly had a specific grievance, and the crew were never in actual danger due to it. But if he’s (somehow) personally manufacturing an indeterminate number of episode plots across the whole of Series 1-V, wherein the crew and ship are frequently in serious distress and danger, then that just makes him a prick.

[Dax101]

I suppose you would have to look at Series 3 and 4 and figure out where would Norman appear in that series. Because chances are those stories were not written just because Norman wasn’t there. They were written because they were the stories they wanted to tell. Once Kryten joined, he got focused on quite quickly with The Last Day, Camille and DNA. And he wasn’t an original cast member.
You would sorta have to assume there would be major changes to how Rob and Doug told these stories if Norman was still there. But would there be?

[Professor Flibble]

It’s a darn shame that Doug never realised that Hattie was part of the golden formula and brought her back. 

One thing that’s especially painful about the new special not being made is Doug saying he was considering bringing Hattie back. I feel like if we do get one more special, and it’s the last one. I really want Hattie in it. Well I’d say that even if it wasn’t the last.

[Turk Thrust]

One thing I will say is that, even allowing for the fact that the material was underwritten, Norman would have done a better job with the opening gags that were considered for Series III (where you can see Hattie’s eyes moving as she reads the autocue).

[Rushy]

 But if he’s (somehow) personally manufacturing an indeterminate number of episode plots across the whole of Series 1-V, wherein the crew and ship are frequently in serious distress and danger, then that just makes him a prick.

Yeah, but… why not?

His job is to keep the last human alive and sane. With that responsibility, I don’t think fear of being a prick would stop Holly. His entire existence is bound to babysitting Lister at this point.

[Flap Jack]

Yeah, but… why not?

His job is to keep the last human ALIVE and sane. With that
responsibility, I don’t think fear of being a prick would stop Holly.
His entire existence is bound to babysitting Lister at this point.

I have added some extra emphasis to your post to highlight one reason why not.

But another big reason is that I simply don’t want Holly to have that kind of relationship with the crew. I want him/her to be a genuine friend to them, and that means having the baseline level of respect for them needed to be honest with them about their situation. I don’t want a Holly who sees themselves as above needing the approval or consent of the crew they’re meant to be serving, and who sees the crew effectively as laboratory mice that they’re just trying to get to behave in a certain way at whatever cost. If Holly genuinely was Truman Show-ing Lister, that’s not them looking after him like a father, that’s abuse (although I guess abuse isn’t… inherently non-fatherly).

Also, I admit I’m not an expert in psychology, but if the priority is Lister’s sanity, I have a feeling that subjecting someone to a series of unnecessary life-or-death traumas might be more damaging to their psyche than simply allowing them to become bored.

Maybe the “diversions” Holly contrives to keep Lister occupied are actually just a steady stream of new board games? That would be more reasonable.

[Technopeasant]

I like the Salt Lake City joke. Utah is full of Mormons.

[Author]

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