Your Unpopular Red Dwarf Opinions

[Piplup2003]

The title says it all. What opinions do you have about Red Dwarf that no-one else seems to agree on?

For me, it’s that VIII is my second favourite series (behind V) and that I prefer Chloë over Claire as Kochanski (this may be partially influenced by the fact that I’ve met Chloë).

And please, no arguing.

Topic

[Professor Flibble]

Oh I mean the main lot. 

[Technopeasant]

As I said here a few months back, it’s arguably weirder that to my knowledge Douglas Adams never commented on Red Dwarf, given the frequent comparisons to Hitchhikers.

As for actors appearing in Doctor Who, it’s more weird how many actors from Keeping Up Appearances HAVE appeared in it.

[Ben Saunders]

Red Dwarf is too intelligent for Adams

[Turk Thrust]

Despite Stoke Me a Clipper being one of the better episodes in VII, I don’t think having an Ace episode was a great way to get rid of Rimmer.

Firstly, because I don’t really believe the whole concept that the Rimmer we saw from I to VI could try to become Ace.

Also, because if the crew had gotten themselves into a perilous situation that left the ship damaged and unable to support a hologram, it would have had the potential for some genuine drama if handled in the right way. Rimmer could then have been brought back seamlessly if Chris ever chose to return without any, “Is this the original Rimmer?” questions.

Finally, they only had Chris for a limited time in VII and every moment that Ace appears is a moment that Rimmer could have been on screen. It seems slightly odd looking back that as Chris only made himself available for 3 weeks, they chose to have him play 2 characters at the same time.

(On a semi-related note, it speaks volumes for the production problems of VII that they got Chris to film the “Vindy sauce” scene for Tikka to Ride twice and didn’t end up using either of them!)

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

> Rimmer could then have been brought back seamlessly if Chris ever chose to return without any, “Is this the original Rimmer?” questions.

this is only a problem because of VIII. Of Doug hadn’t created a second Rimmer we wouldn’t be asking who the current Rimmer, where he comes from, what he remembers etc 

[Ben Saunders]

Well it’s also giving Chris Barrie the opportunity to play Ace again, which he rather liked to do, I gather. So yes they only had Chris for a limited time but it’s not like they sidelined Chris the actor, quite the opposite in fact.

[Flap Jack]

Despite Stoke Me a Clipper being one of the better episodes in VII, I don’t think having an Ace episode was a great way to get rid of Rimmer.

And there was me, putting it in my bottom 2 Series VII episodes, with the joint lowest score to boot, largely because of how bad I thought it was as a send off for Rimmer. I do feel like “he becomes an Ace” was a good idea for an eventual endpoint for Rimmer, but it just doesn’t work when done so suddenly. In Stoke he doesn’t really complete that journey, he’s just emotionally manipulated by Lister into pretending he has so he can fuck off as soon as possible.

[Ben Saunders]

Biggest part of being Ace is believing you’re Ace, and Lister facilitated that. Doesn’t really matter if it’s a lie, it all is.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Do we really think our RimMer wouldn’t cower at the first sign of trouble in the first dimension he jumps too though? He certainly isn’t going to be jumping out of a plane and surfing a crocodile 

If our Rimmer could do those things, how does that explain his weaseliness when he is back in BtE (whatever the explanation, Doug is writing Rimmer as the original Rimmer)

[Turk Thrust]

Well it’s also giving Chris Barrie the opportunity to play Ace again, which he rather liked to do, I gather. So yes they only had Chris for a limited time but it’s not like they sidelined Chris the actor, quite the opposite in fact.

Sure, but if there was a choice between, for example, a 2 minute scene of Ace and Rimmer riding carpets or two 2 minute scenes with Rimmer, I would go for the latter.

I don’t know the details of why it happened, but it’s interesting to me that the obvious thing to do would have been to get Chris into the studio and to film a whole bunch of group scenes or Rimmer/Lister two handers. It would have been the quickest and simplest approach.

Instead, they had him doing stunts, filming on airfields with planes flying overhead, acting opposite himself, and reshooting scenes that didn’t end up getting used.

[Turk Thrust]

> Rimmer could then have been brought back seamlessly if Chris ever chose to return without any, “Is this the original Rimmer?” questions.
this is only a problem because of VIII. Of Doug hadn’t created a second Rimmer we wouldn’t be asking who the current Rimmer, where he comes from, what he remembers etc 

But Doug would either have had to bring Rimmer back having failed as Ace (I can’t really imagine how that could have worked, but maybe Doug might have managed it) or simply ignored Stoke Me a Clipper. Neither is ideal in terms of storytelling.

[Podey]

Despite Stoke Me a Clipper being one of the better episodes in VII, I don’t think having an Ace episode was a great way to get rid of Rimmer.
And there was me, putting it in my bottom 2 Series VII episodes, with the joint lowest score to boot, largely because of how bad I thought it was as a send off for Rimmer. I do feel like “he becomes an Ace” was a good idea for an eventual endpoint for Rimmer, but it just doesn’t work when done so suddenly. In Stoke he doesn’t really complete that journey, he’s just emotionally manipulated by Lister into pretending he has so he can fuck off as soon as possible.

This goes back to someone else’s comment that keeping Rimmer’s heroism from the ‘Out of Time’ cliffhanger as a key part of the resolution would have served to set up him becoming Ace. It’s weird they didn’t do that, in hindsight.

[Flap Jack]

Biggest part of being Ace is believing you’re Ace, and Lister facilitated that. Doesn’t really matter if it’s a lie, it all is.

No, I’d say that Ace Rimmer is meant to be legitimately skilled and not just confident/deluded. But given how massive the light bee graveyard is, maybe a vast majority of Ace Rimmers are actually total incompetents who arrogantly run into their first mission and get double-killed immediately.

Actually the expected skill level is another way that SMaC undermines itself. If it had stuck to the Dimension Jump characterisation of Ace as just being an expert and courageous pilot and explorer, that would have at least been a more plausible gap for Rimmer Prime to close. But instead Doug decided to reinvent Ace as this interdimensional superhero figure who has ‘saving random people across the multiverse’ as an active responsibility. That’s stupid enough just in concept, but the idea of our Rimmer both willingly doing that and working out how to do it on the hoof is totally unbelievable. Rimmer could genuinely have become a great pilot without realising it just through years of going on Starbug jaunts, and he just needed Lister to point this out to him and give him the confidence to go that extra step. But no way in hell is Rimmer doing James Bond shit.

[Frank Smeghammer]

It’s pretty ridiculous that our Rimmer becomes Ace. I mean either Starbug is powering him across time and space or he is stopping to charge his remote light bee on most adventures.

Then then reveal that all previous Aces have also been holograms, somehow. Except obviously the first one (or is he the first?) from Dimension Jump as he is surprised to find his Alpha universe equivalent is dead.

Also, when you choose to become Ace you also lose the H as apparently that was always optional.

I like the episode but it really doesn’t stand up to scrutiny

[Dave]

Maybe when our Rimmer goes off at the end of SMaC and tries to be Ace, he gets killed on his first mission and the entire legacy of Ace ends there.

Then they just decide to boot up a new version of Rimmer off-screen between Only The Good and BTE, based on his last hologrammatic save-state before going off to become Ace.

Simple.

[Dave]

Talking of which, with Rimmer gone why don’t they take the opportunity to boot up a new hologram of someone else for the back half of VII? It might have been nice to have George McIntyre around for a few episodes.

[Rushy]

When Ace programmed Rimmer to look like him, it’s possible that he also copied his entire skillset over. And Rimmer just had to build up courage before he could properly access it. All of Ace’s training for Rimmer seemed to involve becoming confident rather than anything practical.

By extension, it’s possible that Ace evolved to become the superhero when he kept accumulating the abilities of all his other selves. 

[Unrumble]

 Doug would either have had to bring Rimmer back having failed as Ace (I can’t really imagine how that could have worked, but maybe Doug might have managed it) or simply ignored Stoke Me a Clipper. Neither is ideal in terms of storytelling.

[Podey]

Talking of which, with Rimmer gone why don’t they take the opportunity to boot up a new hologram of someone else for the back half of VII? It might have been nice to have George McIntyre around for a few episodes.

I would presume the crew’s hologram files are back on Red Dwarf and they only have the ability to remotely project an active personnel member from Starbug, not boot new ones. 

They could have theoretically just booted up another Rimmer once the nanos rebuilt the ship, except they were captured as soon as they arrived. 

So perhaps that’s what they did once ‘resurrected’ Rimmer was un-ressurected, just booted up another Rimmer which was updated via back-up from Starbug. 

See, it almost makes sense…! 

[Flap Jack]

When Ace programmed Rimmer to look like him, it’s possible that he also copied his entire skillset over. And Rimmer just had to build up courage before he could properly access it. All of Ace’s training for Rimmer seemed to involve becoming confident rather than anything practical.

Given Rimmer’s ejection seat snafu at the end of the episode, it feels like a no on that.

But even if Rimmer did inherit Ace’s skills digitally, it’s never mentioned, so neither Rimmer or Lister know about it, and go ahead with the plan for Rimmer to become Ace thinking that he doesn’t have the practical skills to pull it off. So this theory would explain why Rimmer doesn’t just get killed off screen, but it wouldn’t explain why Lister and eventually Rimmer think it would actually work. Actually if Ace had said to Rimmer “you now have all my skills” that would have helped a lot with the confidence side of things!

This does draw attention to the good episode/bad episode fan theory dichotomy. If an episode I like has elements that don’t make sense, I’m eager to come up with theories that explain away those things. But if it’s an episode I dislike, I instinctively just go “yeah the episode doesn’t make sense because it sucks and it sucks because it doesn’t make sense, who cares”.

[Rushy]

I’m sort of 50/50 on whether I like Stoke Me a Clipper. I think the shameless outlandishness of it all does carry it somewhat. Plus Howard’s triumphant score is so memorable. It’s got “oomph” to it, if you know what I mean. 

[Dave]

I think SMaC is probably the best bad episode of Red Dwarf.

[Professor Flibble]

I think SMaC is probably the best bad episode of Red Dwarf.

I don’t know, does Tikka to Ride qualify? 

[Warbodog]

the best bad episode of Red Dwarf.

Looking at my 2023 list, that honour would probably go to Dear Dave. Coming just after Can of Worms, which would be the worst… good…? Maybe it’s Can of Worms.

[Professor Flibble]

Thing is, while it’s not the bubble era, I’ve never considered the Dave era to be bad Dwarf so even the “bad” episodes I don’t have quite as much of an issue with as bad episodes from Series VII and VIII. Except for Timewave. 

[Dave]

I don’t know, does Tikka to Ride qualify? 

Worst good.

[Turk Thrust]

When Ace programmed Rimmer to look like him, it’s possible that he also copied his entire skillset over. And Rimmer just had to build up courage before he could properly access it. All of Ace’s training for Rimmer seemed to involve becoming confident rather than anything practical.
Given Rimmer’s ejection seat snafu at the end of the episode, it feels like a no on that.
But even if Rimmer did inherit Ace’s skills digitally, it’s never mentioned, so neither Rimmer or Lister know about it, and go ahead with the plan for Rimmer to become Ace thinking that he doesn’t have the practical skills to pull it off. So this theory would explain why Rimmer doesn’t just get killed off screen, but it wouldn’t explain why Lister and eventually Rimmer think it would actually work. Actually if Ace had said to Rimmer “you now have all my skills” that would have helped a lot with the confidence side of things!
This does draw attention to the good episode/bad episode fan theory dichotomy. If an episode I like has elements that don’t make sense, I’m eager to come up with theories that explain away those things. But if it’s an episode I dislike, I instinctively just go “yeah the episode doesn’t make sense because it sucks and it sucks because it doesn’t make sense, who cares”.

Yeah, I get that and with some of the stuff (the explanation of a knight escaping from the AR machine), I think the simplest explanation is probably the correct one. Paul and Doug overlooked some of the finer details.

[Turk Thrust]

Thinking about it now, Paul Alexander was given a couple of tough tasks for that series. Not only writing out Rimmer, but also penning the first draft for Epideme only to be told, “You can’t have Rimmer in it, you can have Kochanski instead (a character none of the writers seemed to really know how to make interesting).”

[International Debris]

I do think Stoke is a nice farewell for Rimmer, giving him the opportunity to become a better person. 

I also hate the whole Ace Rimmer, multiverse-travelling superhero thing so much. I don’t like Red Dwarf being an epic space opera, I don’t like the characters being anything other than just people who were unfortunate enough to end up their situation. So superhero Rimmer and Ouroboros Lister don’t appeal.

So I have complicated feelings about Stoke.

One thing I do know is that it’s a hundred times better than Tikka, which does not belong on a good episodes list.

[Dax101]

It’s weird because when i first watched the episode as a kid, it did not seem at all strange to me that Ace was this space hero. But when I got older and really thought about it, that’s just not who Ace Rimmer was in series 4. It’s almost a caricature of all the things he was based on to think he is now this guy who’s travelling universes and saving people. Kinda strange.

I’m not a huge fan of stoke me a clipper. It dissects the character abit to much.

[Dave]

that’s just not who Ace Rimmer was in series 4. It’s almost a caricature of all the things he was based on to think he is now this guy who’s travelling universes and saving people.

I think the idea was that after his first Dimension Jump in that IV episode he’s grown into this ridiculously exaggerated version of himself by the time we catch up with him again in VII. It’s silly but I think you can buy it.

[Author]

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