Russell Two Davies

[Nick R]

Apparently, today there was some news about a change to Doctor Who’s production staff, in some obscure behind-the-scenes role. I don’t know if anyone else heard about it?

Topic

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

[Renegade Rob]

[Nick R]

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Just seen this comment on Reddit re Conrad’s plan

<blockquote> This is like saying that a bunch of teenagers prank-calling the fire brigade is proof that fire isn’t real. </blockquote> 

https://www.reddit.com/r/gallifrey/comments/1kfxiiy/comment/mqxhden/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[sleepey]

All the replies arguing that it doesn’t have to make sense because everyone just believes things for no reason nowadays 😩

[Dave]

All the replies arguing that it doesn’t have to make sense because everyone just believes things for no reason nowadays

[Renegade Rob]

All the replies arguing that it doesn’t have to make sense because everyone just believes things for no reason nowadays 😩

It’s a plot hole and sloppy writing no question, but it makes its point well enough. 

Maybe after Empire of Death I’m just happy to have a plot that at least pretends to be semi-logically consistent instead of one that goes “Oh yeah the TARDIS can time teleport them from the future back to modern UNIT, oh and also we’re not gonna adequately address Ruby making it snow, womp womp, fuck you.” (I do largely like this season and this era but holy fuck did that finale blow.)

[Ben Saunders]

Doctor Who fans are so starved for competence it’s quite embarassing really. I’m constantly like “well, it wasn’t incredible, but after five years of shite I’m just happy to have something watchable.” I wonder how we will look back on this era once the dust has settled and it’s old news. For example I balk at Series 2 now, and I’ve come to appreciate Series 7 and 9 more over time. I can’t see myself ever bothering to rewatch any of the Chibnall stuff, but can see myself catching some RTD2 repeats and probably quite enjoying them.

[sleepey]

Maybe after Empire of Death I’m just happy to have a plot that at least pretends to be semi-logically consistent instead of one that goes “Oh yeah the TARDIS can time teleport them from the future back to modern UNIT, oh and also we’re not gonna adequately address Ruby making it snow, womp womp, fuck you.” (I do largely like this season and this era but holy fuck did that finale blow.)

Empire of Death isn’t real, we all know that. It’s a fake episode, they’re all paid actors.

[Rushy]

Doctor Who fans are so starved for competence it’s quite embarassing really. I’m constantly like “well, it wasn’t incredible, but after five years of shite I’m just happy to have something watchable.” I wonder how we will look back on this era once the dust has settled and it’s old news. For example I balk at Series 2 now, and I’ve come to appreciate Series 7 and 9 more over time. I can’t see myself ever bothering to rewatch any of the Chibnall stuff, but can see myself catching some RTD2 repeats and probably quite enjoying them.

It’s not an exaggeration to say that modern Red Dwarf is a more believable and grounded piece of drama than modern Doctor Who. 

[Dave]

The Story & The Engine starts with an interesting premise and an unusual setting, but somehow it feels like it never quite gets beyond the first act of the story to turn into a compelling adventure.

There’s also a fair bit of fan-service loaded into the back end which feels like a crutch, as if they knew the episode wasn’t quite engaging enough in its own right. A shame as it felt like this had quite a lot of potential but just struggled to get into a higher gear.

It’s the kind of thing that feels like it maybe would have worked better as a prose story, where the need for something visually interesting and dynamic isn’t the same as it is on TV.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Ironically I found that incredibly dull. Just all a bit nothing. 

To Dave’s point, it sort of feels like it should have gone somewhere and been interesting. It just didn’t. 

I really thought the reveal of the spider was what was going to lift the episode to being exciting but it didn’t. 

Also felt a bit Rings of Akhaten, which I love to the contrary of many other people, and rhis just didn’t do anything anywhere near as powerful

the tease of Jo Martin was probably the most interesting bit. And I don’t even care that much for that part of the Doctors story.  All it’s done is say “she is still canon and I might return to it one day”

[Ridley]

the tease of Jo Martin was probably the most interesting bit. And I don’t even care that much for that part of the Doctors story.  All it’s done is say “she is still canon and I might return to it one day”

I would argue it’s there to show Anansi’s kid has a past with the Doctor before this incarnation without it being undercut with a white face as that would change the context. I don’t get the impression it’s supposed to foreshadow RTD paying off the Fugitive stuff but rather a way of saying that Doctor Who keeps going/has more to tell.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I would argue it’s there to show Anansi’s kid has a past with the Doctor before this incarnation without it being undercut with a white face

On that note, how does he remember? He makes a point at the beginning of saying this is the first black body he has inhabited and then we’re reminded that’s not the case. It only is to him because he doesn’t remember his fugitive past. 

[sleepey]

I quite liked this episode on its own but I’m a little concerned about the implications of every god from every culture ever apparently now being real.

I was under the impression that RTD’s little storybook phase was more or less contained to his own pantheon, & at some point he would put it all back in the box the way he found it, but now he seems to be suggesting that there’s always been magic shit going on everywhere & we just didn’t notice for the first 60 years. Which is a) kind of stupid, and b) a fundamental change to the show.

Am I overreacting?

[Ben Saunders]

Thank you Russel T Davies for posting a photo with this episode’s guest star and the caption “the secret is out of the bag” the morning after the show, really appreciated mate thanks. Now I don’t want to watch it.

[Ridley]

Am I overreacting?

Shirley it’s all sufficiently advanced technology = indistinguishable from magic bobbins anyway?

[Rushy]

What is everyone’s Doctor ranking?

I would go 

1. William Hartnell

2. Christopher Eccleston

3. Patrick Troughton

4. Sylvester McCoy

5. Matt Smith

6. David Tennant (both incarnations)

7. Jon Pertwee 

8. Paul McGann

9. Tom Baker

10. Peter Davison

11. Peter Capaldi

12. Colin Baker 

13. Jodie Whittaker

14. Ncuti Gatwa

[Flap Jack]

Here’s my ranking:

1. William Hartnell

2. Patrick Troughton

3. Jon Pertwee

4. Tom Baker

5. Peter Davison

6. Colin Baker

7. Sylvester McCoy

8. Paul McGann

9. Christopher Eccleston

10. David Tennant

11. Matt Smith

12. Peter Capaldi

13. Jodie Whittaker

14. Ncuti Gatwa

(By order of appearance.)

[Technopeasant]

I mean, it has objectively been downhill since An Unearthly Child.

[Rushy]

I mean, it has objectively been downhill since An Unearthly Child.

All jokes aside, I do think the Hartnell era has a certain Jules Verne magic to it that the show never quite recaptured. 

[Ben Saunders]

What is everyone’s Doctor ranking?

1. All of them

2. Sylvester McCoy

3. Jodie Whittaker

[Ian Symes]

1. Troughton

2. Capaldi

3. Baker, T.

4. Smith

5. Eccleston

6. McCoy

7. Tennant (14th)

8. Davison

9. Pertwee

10. Tennant (10th)

11. McGann

12. Hartnell

13. Whittaker

14. Baker, C.

Gatwa probably on the verge of the top ten currently, but I won’t commit until he’s been and gone. Also, this is only based on telly; McGann and Colin are both much better for Big Finish than the dross they had to work with on screen. 

[Ridley]

What distinction is being made between the Tennants?

[Ian Symes]

He got on my tits as the Tenth, but didn’t as the Fourteenth.

[Ben Saunders]

Hartnell in 12th sounds fucked up until you realise it’s not because he’s bad but because everybody else is really good. I would put Davison pre-Frontios much lower down and I think that Colin Baker should be higher despite most of what he’s given being shite. Davison is a bit of a breathy wet-blanket until he very suddenly becomes excellent, and C. Bakes really puts in the effort. Contrastingly, Tom Baker is excellent until he stops trying and turns himself into self-parodic pantomime shite for a couple of years, before locking in again for his final season. Hartnell is always great but especially when he warms up, Troughton and Pertwee are both excellent the entire time. I can’t take McCoy seriously when he tries to play it darker, he’s a silly little Scottish man I could pick up with one arm. McGann is really fucking good in Night of the Doctor. The modern male Doctors all do well with what they’re given, Matt Smith goes above and beyond I think and really gives an alien performance. Capaldi is probably my favourite overall, Whittaker feels like she’s presenting a science documentary for CBBC. Which reminds me of Peter Purves sounding like he’s doing a piece to camera on Blue Peter whenever Stephen is doing a big bit of exposition.

[Ian Symes]

Hartnell in 12th sounds fucked up until you realise it’s not because he’s bad but because everybody else is really good.

Yeah, there are no Pete (Part Two)s or Timewaves when it comes to ranking the Doctors Who. Splendid fellows, all of them.

[Asclepius]

Troughton

Smith

Eccleston

Tennant II

McCoy

Tennant I

T Baker

Hartnell

Gatwa

McGann

Capaldi

Davison

Whittaker

Pertwee

C. Baker

Probably.

[Flap Jack]

1. John Hurt

2. Rowan Atkinson

3. Peter Cushing

4. David Bradley

5. Jo Martin

6. Richard Hurndall

7. Jim Broadbent

8. Joanna Lumley

9. Hugh Grant

10. Toby Jones

11. Richard E. Grant

12. George Gallaccio

13. Robert Holmes

14. Graeme Harper

15. Douglas Camfield

16. Philip Hinchcliffe

17. Christopher Baker

18. Robert Banks Stewart

19. Christopher Barry

20. Adrian Gibbs

21. Michael Jayston

22. Geoffrey Hughes

23. Grace Nettle

24. Leo Tang

25. Jac Jones

26. Jesse Deyi

[Renegade Rob]

I really liked the Story & the Engine and while it might not have hit every mark, I respect what it was doing and appreciate the new energy it was bringing, and bonus points for that cameo. 

It really felt like they were doing another surprise sequel (to the Mind Robber this time) especially at the end when they were trying to rip the wiring out of the controls, and it seemed like the Barber was the next iteration of that writer master guy from the Mind Robber, and the parallels are stark enough (and probably deliberate enough) that I’m really surprised they didn’t even give it a mention, though of course some people theorize Mrs. Flood’s deal is tied up with the Mind Robber so maybe they’re saving the Land of Fiction stuff for that. (And to be fair, the stories that powered the engine didn’t need to be fictional, so it might’ve just confused things to bring in Mind Robber lore explicitly even if it was relevant.)

As far as Doctor rankings go, I think for me it’s Eccleston first, then Hartnell second, then Capaldi third, then everyone else tied for fourth place, although within that morass I can vaguely feel a sentimental attachment and fascination with the War and Fugitive Doctors, especially with their audio stories that down the line that might elevate them to 2.5th place between Hartnell and Capaldi (integer ranks are for proper integer incarnations). 

All the Doctors are brilliant but Eccleston had a unique way of elevating the characters and stakes around him through his reactions, like you cared because he cared. And when a redshirt died, it legitimately seemed like it ruined his day, like he gave a shit and it gave weight to everything around him. It also gave him an underdog quality that I think the show loses sometimes because the Doctor is so ridiculously overpowered and it’s a tricky tightrope to walk, but it felt like he lost as often as he won, and his victories often came from his principles and inspiring others to step up instead of always callously blowing things up. 

[Ben Saunders]

Your first thought when encountering something that projects mental images is to offer it the image of a Weeping Angel? Are you stupid?

[Ridley]

I was going to say “Hang on, so don’t the angels in the mind’s eye also become angels” as an aside but does the mind’s eye ever close? When you’re blinkered?

[Ian Symes]

The Angels can only be defeated if everyone in the world with aphantasia bands together. But I just can’t picture that happening.

[Flap Jack]

Steven Moffat made the Angels OP by establishing that looking at them was also bad, but he balanced it out by making them really stupid. “They’ll still freeze if they just think you’re looking at them”, then they see a girl awkwardly stumble around with her eyes closed and think “oh shit she’s looking at us, better stay put”.

[Dave]

Yeah, the second Weeping Angels story was good in a lot of ways but it did unnecessarily complicate what was previously a perfect, simple, immediately-gettable villain concept.

[Renegade Rob]

A lot of that seemed like it was down to psychology. You can bluff the angels. They usually zap you into the past but if they’re dicks they can also just kill you outright if they feel like it. I’m more perplexed by the implication in Village of the Angels (which I otherwise think is pretty great) that it’s fatal to be repeatedly touched by a Weeping Angel, since that’s literally what their battery farm scheme relies on in Angels Take Manhattan. 

[Flap Jack]

It being psychological really muddles things. Like if the Angels can be tricked into believing they’re being observed when they aren’t, surely they must also move all the time when they shouldn’t, just because they don’t know someone’s looking at them? For example if they’re being looked at through a telescope or a hidden camera. It being psychological also suggests that it might be something they could mentally train themselves to bypass.

It’s like the Toy Story problem. Not moving when people are around to observe them is so instinctive that even Buzz Lightyear – who does not initially even realise he’s a toy – does this. Yet when the need was great enough a bunch of them happily ignored the rule and moved and talked around a child anyway. So why don’t they just do that all the time?

[Ben Saunders]

Something I thought about briefly during the episode before deciding it’s not worth thinking too hard about is… the Doctor isn’t really African, is he? Ncuti Gatwa is Rwandan, but the Doctor is Gallifreyan. He’s as much a tourist there as anybody else. But he gets to act African because he’s the correct shade, I guess? Not that I care really, race is an arbitrary concept at the best of times and I do think it’s good for the show to at least somewhat authentically explore other cultures.

It’s like when Capaldi’s Doctor went on about being Scottish. You aren’t Scottish, mate, you’re viture signalling.

Also, did I miss something about why the interior of the spaceship or whatever they were on is a seemingly pointless Takeshi’s Castle-style maze? I was too busy wondering if the story about hairstyles-as-maps was true (it might or it might not be, apparently) and must have missed a key piece of dialogue explaining why the Doctor and Belinda were running around a laser tag arena.

[Dave]

the Doctor isn’t really African, is he? Ncuti Gatwa is Rwandan, but the Doctor is Gallifreyan. He’s as much a tourist there as anybody else. But he gets to act African because he’s the correct shade, I guess?

I think the idea is that that’s where he is welcomed and made to feel at home, because when people take him to be human, that’s where it looks and sounds like he’s from.

Same reason 13 likes spending so much time in Yorkshire.

[Ian Symes]

Something I thought about briefly during the episode before deciding it’s not worth thinking too hard about is… the Doctor isn’t really African, is he? Ncuti Gatwa is Rwandan, but the Doctor is Gallifreyan. He’s as much a tourist there as anybody else. But he gets to act African because he’s the correct shade, I guess? Not that I care really, race is an arbitrary concept at the best of times and I do think it’s good for the show to at least somewhat authentically explore other cultures.

The point is about how he’s treated by others, rather than how he acts. The Doctor acts however the Doctor wants to act, just like in every other incarnation. Some people react differently to that now that he has Black skin, but he doesn’t change what he does.

[Dave]

Also, did I miss something about why the interior of the spaceship or whatever they were on is a seemingly pointless Takeshi’s Castle-style maze? I was too busy wondering if the story about hairstyles-as-maps was true (it might or it might not be, apparently) and must have missed a key piece of dialogue explaining why the Doctor and Belinda were running around a laser tag arena.

There was something in the dialogue about how that area was able to transform and take on different shapes (the Doctor tells Belinda that the way out will be straightforward).

Given that, I’m not sure what use a map is if it can all change, but let’s not think about that, or indeed the internal logic of any plot points in this era.

[Renegade Rob]

Also, did I miss something about why the interior of the spaceship or whatever they were on is a seemingly pointless Takeshi’s Castle-style maze? I was too busy wondering if the story about hairstyles-as-maps was true (it might or it might not be, apparently) and must have missed a key piece of dialogue explaining why the Doctor and Belinda were running around a laser tag arena.

It was a touching shoutout to the greatest and most timeless story in all of human mythology, Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake for the MSX2. 

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

[Ridley]

I just took it for granted that the maze is to stop people escaping.

[Warbodog]

What is everyone’s Doctor ranking?

I don’t think so much about the actors as what they were working with, and what worked for me. Matt Smith’s my favourite, but other takes on that era could easily have that top spot too, unless they really screwed it up.

After that, I think fondly of Troughton and Tom Baker because I like the tone and styles of those eras, though may not sit through them again.

[Renegade Rob]

I don’t think so much about the actors as what they were working with, and what worked for me. 

Ooh I really like that metric! I have to think on that but going by that lens I’m partial to the Hartnell era (actual non-alien historicals and also ridiculous retro-60’s sci-fi pulp). 

One of the metrics I used back in the day to compare Doctors was, if I was a companion, who would I want to be my Doctor? (Eccleston, natch, since you always know where you stand with him. The others usually bullshit you in some way.)

Conversely, I’ve done the reverse to judge companions, like if I was the Doctor, who would I want to be my companion? (Ian and Barbara rule, and also Martha can be relied upon to competently hold the fort while you’re otherwise engaged or incapacitated for an extended period of time.)

[Technopeasant]

You aren’t Scottish, mate, you’re viture signalling. 

I admit I did rather enjoy all the headlines heralding Gatwa as the third Scottish Doctor.

[Ben Saunders]

if I was a companion, who would I want to be my Doctor?

Doesn’t matter because if Dr Who was real I’d be dead by the end of the second act. In any episode. Even Boom Town or Listen. I’d be hopeless. He wouldn’t even let me in the tardis. 

[Technopeasant]

if I was a companion, who would I want to be my Doctor?

Doesn’t matter because if Dr Who was real I’d be dead by the end of the second act. In any episode. Even Boom Town or Listen. I’d be hopeless. He wouldn’t even let me in the tardis. 

[Renegade Rob]

He wouldn’t even let me in the tardis. 

Well damn. Even Adam Mitchell got to at least go inside the TARDIS at least twice. Fuck, even Conrad Clark got to sort of go in the TARDIS. You should believe in yourself!

[Author]

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