Russell Two Davies

[Nick R]

Apparently, today there was some news about a change to Doctor Who’s production staff, in some obscure behind-the-scenes role. I don’t know if anyone else heard about it?

Topic

[Ridley]

You’re underestimating how irritating it would be to get no true Scotsman’d all the time (and space).

[Dave]

I thought this week’s episode was the best episode of Gatwa’s run so far, and feels the most like a classic-RTD-era episode.

A fun premise, a good adventure with little flab and lots of jeopardy, some solid political subtext, fun supporting characters, lots of enjoyable pop-culture references (including a movie homage I was not expecting in Doctor Who), the kind of casual inclusivity that worked so well in the original RTD era, and even some surprising lore built into the plot.

Who knows how the big two-part finale will turn out, but this was very good.

[Dave]

Also, inevitably:

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Heeeyyyy I was coming to make the same meme

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I thought this week’s episode was the best episode of Gatwa’s run so far, and feels the most like a classic-RTD-era episode.
A fun premise, a good adventure with little flab and lots of jeopardy, some solid political subtext, fun supporting characters, lots of enjoyable pop-culture references (including a movie homage I was not expecting in Doctor Who), the kind of casual inclusivity that worked so well in the original RTD era, and even some surprising lore built into the plot.
Who knows how the big two-part finale will turn out, but this was very good.

I think this just about sums it up quite nicely 

Great fun episode, silly in places, meaningful in others. With some lovely surprises and lore exploration thrown in. 

I also love an episode that shows the universe of Doctor Who. Not just, The Doctor defeats a monster in a space ship. But shows a host of alien races just living and loving life. It’s not often we get to see what life is like in the future beyond a few little glimpses.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Also gotta appreciate Russell putting in plenty of 20th century pop culture, but in the future. 

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

21st century … I’ve evidently forgotten what millennia in living in. 

[Ben Saunders]

Watching this shit like it’s an assignment for college and it’s going to come up in the exam.

[Ben Saunders]

“I’ve never seen him like his before, this is super weird!!”

Girlie you’ve been in like five episodes, you’ve probably never seen him really need a piss or read a book or any other 100,000 things so why would I care if you think he’s acting a little strange, you don’t know him well enough to know how he normally acts. Maybe he’s been acting really weird up until now and this is who he is.

[Ben Saunders]

We have a really sturdy holowhip ahh scene

[Ben Saunders]

Eh, maybe that episode would have been good if I gave a shit about Eurovision. We’re really going to blow these two characters returning on an RTD2 finale, which is a huge shame because you can only bring something back for the first time once.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

I don’t give a shit about Eurovision but it was funny and silly and serious enough in lots of ways to ignore the main setting. I thought it was going to be more heavy on the singing and contest so was quite glad that was cut short a fair bit. 

[Dave]

I enjoy Eurovision but was expecting it to be a bit of a gimmick here, so was pleasantly surprised that it was actually used quite thoughtfully (and that the alien silliness and songs were deployed quite sparingly).

And it somehow made the villain plot feel all the more serious when it did kick in, as it couldn’t help but evoke some of the real-life attacks at concerts in recent years that claimed lives.

[Ben Saunders]

It did remind me of how much my mum hated that one Moffat Xmas special with the singing at the end. She was disgusted. Luckily it was kept short, though I still skipped through the ending song because girl I don’t care about you or your planet or whatever.

It all happened too fast for me, I hadn’t even finished my pasta by the time like a hundred thousand people had died and Belinda was crying. We really get no time to care about anybody on screen, even though the episodes are only like five minutes shorter than they used to be it feels like much more. (Looking into this further, this episode is actually longer than some established greats so who fucking knows.)

Lots of the plot felt incredibly convenient, “I need somebody who can do this”, “oh I can do that!”, we need the Doctor to stop being a sadistic motherfucker, oh he remembers his granddaughter. It’s one-step removed from Lister tripping over the computer they need in Quarantine. One of those times it’s so convenient you’re begging for it to be deliberately convenient, for a reason.

Why is Rylan of all people there? Camp fun isn’t a good enough answer. Actual Rylan as well, not even hologram Rylan. Will anybody remember who he is in 5 years, let alone thousands of years after the planet he came from suddenly burnt for whatever reason?

And another bi-generation… whatever man. Who cares at this point. Somebody did point out that Rani 2 has to be naked under that coat for the logic to be consistent with when 14+15 did it. And that happened because of the Toymaker’s influence, so something else is going on I guess.

[Flap Jack]

Oh my god, they did it. The bastards actually did it. Susan back, and The Rani back, in the same episode. Maybe the finale will the awful, who knows, but credit where it’s due – I said “stop teasing and just bring Susan back already” and they delivered on it. Would have been much better if we could have just skipped over all of the Susan Triad crap, but oh well.

Overall, I really enjoyed the episode, probably second best of the series, behind The Well. The Story & The Engine had a more striking aesthetic, deeper characters and a more nuanced story, but this episode had the advantage of me being able to understand what was going on, and it was fun. Just a good ol’ “terrorist hijacks TV broadcast as revenge for colonialism and tries to commit galactic genocide” story. Plenty of conveniences as Ben points out, but they didn’t detract too much for me.

– The whole point about Earth being destroyed in May 2025 really sits weirdly with the Bad Wolf-esque current day pop culture inclusion. So I guess that in the Doctor Who canon, Rylan Clarke was forced into a cryogenic tube and shot into space in, what, April of this year? Along with all the data needed to create a Graham Norton AI, presumably.

– Speaking of Bad Wolf, the Delta Wave. I guess there’s no need to come up with a new idea if an old one basically does the same thing.

– Belinda: “That’s… not him… “

Me:

– So they’re still stubbornly holding on to this whole “mavity” thing huh.

– I can’t believe one scene was essentially this:

– RTD (or Juno Dawson, but probably RTD) seems like he’s really not happy with The Day of the Doctor. “All the Time Lords were gone in a second, with no possibility that any individuals except for me survived” describes Davies’ original idea for how the Time War ended, but it really doesn’t match with The Master’s Spyfall genocide. Aside from the fact that tons of them had to survive to become Cybermen, if the Time Lords weren’t all on Gallifrey for a climactic battle at the time of the attack, then surely a lot more of them would have escaped just by being all over time and space?

– Weird to think it’s a genuine possibility that Fifteen never encounters the Daleks, the Cybermen or The Master, but does encounter the Celestial Toymaker, Sutekh and The Rani.

– It took some finagling of the series numbering, but it is funny how Susan both departed and returned in Season 2. (Of course there was also The Five Doctors, but that was earlier than her departure from her perspective.) Speaking of the series numbering, it is going DOWN on Wikipedia right now:

– Interesting that Mrs. Flood bi-generated. Here’s hoping this finale is good enough and does enough with the idea that it retroactively justifies it happening in The Giggle. (Basically, will the finale be the ‘Fathers & Suns’ to The Giggle’s ‘Ouroboros’?) Maybe they’ll even clarify whether these bi-generations are divergent or convergent… not that I’ll necessarily like the answer.

[Technopeasant]

So… just as someone with a casual interest in the new canon if not the new show itself, what exactly happened to Susan and the Rani during the Time War?

[Flap Jack]

Well there’s a whole Big Finish sub-series called “Susan’s War” so it’s safe to say she was involved.

But I don’t believe The Rani has ever been included in any Time War stories.

[Dave]

his episode had the advantage of me being able to understand what was going on

Immediately putting it in the top 5% of RTD episodes.

[Technopeasant]

But I don’t believe The Rani has ever been included in any Time War stories.

You’d have honestly expected her to be of more use to the war effort than the Master.

[Ben Saunders]

Correction, bigeneration wasn’t the Toymaker’s doing, it was the salt at the edge of the universe bullshit. Or whatever.

[Ben Saunders]

I wish I was excited by Susan being back, but they blue balled us with it last series and the second part of the previous finale left a sour taste in my mouth and taught me not to be excited for anything in case it ends up being shit. The show is just good enough at this point that the cope-a-campus in my brain is telling me don’t worry, it MIGHT be good. Just tune into the slop and find out.

I hope the Disney stuff DOES fall through purely so that I don’t have to watch the episodes at 8am on a Sunday anymore. Blatant catering to the American market, yes we’ve heard all these complaints before I know but fuck them, they can wait.

[Ben Saunders]

…being able to understand what was going on… immediately putting it in the top 5% of RTD episodes.

Hey, now. I’m pissed at the fucker right now but I’d push that number up to at least 10%.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Ben, to your point about episode length, this felt shorter because they had the story wrapped about 10mins before the episode did. They chopped through at quite a pace to allow themselves to muck about bringing everyone back to life and such and the. To allow for the credit scene. 

I think that’s partly too why there’s so many conveniences. Although, “needing someone medical” and Belinda not immediately stepping forward (even if she wouldn’t necessarily know how to operate a cryo booth) is a bit out of what little character we know of her. 

[cwickham]

There have been rights issues with the Rani which precluded any possibility of her being used in BF’s Time War stories.

[Dave]

I hope the Disney stuff DOES fall through purely so that I don’t have to watch the episodes at 8am on a Sunday anymore. Blatant catering to the American market, yes we’ve heard all these complaints before I know but fuck them, they can wait.

The weird thing is that the scheduling now means that the episodes drop on Disney+ between midnight and 3am in the US, also on Saturday morning, just earlier in local time than it is in the UK. I doubt many people there are staying up late to watch them at the moment of release, so I don’t know why they don’t just synchronise the iplayer and Disney+ release with the BBC broadcast at around 7pm, and have the episodes go live in the US between 11am and 2pm on Saturday. 

[Rushy]

As someone who adores the Hartnell era, I am deeply disappointed that they chose to wait until this weak period of the show to bring back Susan. Not Capaldi, not Smith, not even Tennant? Very depressing. I’m happy for Carole Ann Ford, but I’m unhappy for myself having to see her long-awaited return in this stupid bollocks. 

[Ben Saunders]

Ah yes, I guess so. Bringing everybody back was a bit… nice. I did find myself thinking how BORED must they have gotten after bringing back like, the hundredth person. And then they have to do it 999,900 more times. That’s a LOT. They were all smiles and welcomes for the first few, but after 5,000 you’d be sick to death of them. How long do you think it took them? No wonder poor old Mrs. Flood died after probably several hours in space. I’m sure there was some technobabble about how they managed to survive that shit at all and everybody didn’t immediately secrete their brains through their noses and explode the second the bubble popped.

There have been rights issues with the Rani which precluded any possibility of her being used in BF’s Time War stories.

Disney money is good for one thing, it seems. Maybe they finally had enough to pay the Nation estate to not use the Daleks for a couple of seasons. I know that’s a long-standing myth, but it’s funny that we have yet another excuse to conveniently explain it.

[Ridley]

– RTD (or Juno Dawson, but probably RTD) seems like he’s really not happy with The Day of the Doctor.

I think it’s more that he mavitates towards Moffat’s ideas than Chibnall’s redo of RTD’s (and he’s redoing himself anyway).

Funnily enough, I was thinking throughout this series that a way to bring the Time Lords back would be to have the Timeless Child’s unknown amount of regenerations split off to revive them. Millions of regeneration energy lasers flying off into the universe in all directions as Gallifrey is its people not the planet or summat.

I was pretty meh on the episode itself where I’ve enjoyed most of the run. I raised an eyebrow at the “corporation” that supports the song contest being evil the same as I did with The One Show presented as gladly platforming alt right conspirators.

So is, like, the TARDIS being wheelchair accessible going to be demonstrated at some point? Cause with that, the AL robot having a lazy eye and someone feeling it necessary to make a thing of a little person needing to stand on a box,  able-bodied Davros is starting to come across as sinister rather than empathetic.

[Ben Saunders]

I forgot what he did to Davros. He’s just a guy now.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Davros is just this guy, ya know. 

[Renegade Rob]

Hot diggety damn, that episode was a classic, even before those twists and reveals. Doctor Who does Die Hard while also improving that scene from Last Jedi where Leia flies through space 1000% through the use of a confetti cannon. The side characters were all great, the villain was basically perfect, Gatwa was hilarious and chilling. This is the best Gatwa ep so far, easily. This is the one they’ll show to represent the 15th Doctor during an anniversary marathon on BBC America. 

[Dave]

while also improving that scene from Last Jedi where Leia flies through space 1000% through the use of a confetti cannon.

My first thought was this:

[Ben Saunders]

The reference point is Four To Doomsday, surely.

[Flap Jack]

[Ben Saunders]

Genuine tension if you’re being extremely generous, immediately undercut by bullshit like everything else in that movie.

I keep thinking of the scene in this week’s episode where two robots are about to menace the Doctor, then he just sonics them to death and carries on with what he was doing. Absolutely no tension whatsoever and it feels completely pointless. It’s not even cool or badass, just a waste of everybody’s time.

[Flap Jack]

I mean there are definitely at least a few seconds between her being shot out into space and her saving herself, so I think it’s fair to say the tension was real (whether or not it worked for you).

As for the moment being undercut by bullsh- oh, hang on, I’ve just had the producer in my ear screaming “NO LAST JEDI ARGUMENT, NO THREAD DERAILMENT” while sounding on the verge of tears, so let’s just not get into that.

[Technopeasant]

“NO THREAD DERAILMENT” while sounding on the verge of tears, so let’s just not get into that.

[Dave]

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

[Renegade Rob]

Okay, for the record, I love Last Jedi, and even like that scene with her in space, especially the first time, since she’d died in real life and I really thought for a second they were gonna casually kill her (and Ackbar) with one well-placed torpedo shot instead of some really hamfisted melodramatic finale sacrifice. I would’ve been ballsy and I would’ve really respected that. 

Something about the confetti cannon moment landed with me, maybe the music or maybe because, even though you obviously knew he wasn’t dead, it represented a much-needed moment of hope. The audience being sucked out the roof was such a haunting moment and the villain was such a dick that a really stupid silly setpiece like that was just the right thing. 

[Dave]

Something about the confetti cannon moment landed with me, maybe the music or maybe because, even though you obviously knew he wasn’t dead, it represented a much-needed moment of hope. The audience being sucked out the roof was such a haunting moment and the villain was such a dick that a really stupid silly setpiece like that was just the right thing.

I agree with this. Like the episode as a whole, it struck the right balance between a sense of peril/danger and lighter silliness.

[Flap Jack]

Yes, to be clear I wasn’t meaning to make fun of the idea of preferring the confetti cannon scene. I was saying that I am Homer in that scene, genuinely on the fence.

[Renegade Rob]

Me after accidentally derailing the thread with a Last Jedi reference:

[Technopeasant]

So… what do people think about Series VIII?

[Renegade Rob]

So… what do people think about Series VIII?

When you think about it, what even is the Blue Midget dance if not the Red Dwarf equivalent of a confetti cannon through space?

[Ian Symes]

The whole point about Earth being destroyed in May 2025 really sits weirdly with the Bad Wolf-esque current day pop culture inclusion. So I guess that in the Doctor Who canon, Rylan Clarke was forced into a cryogenic tube and shot into space in, what, April of this year?

I’ve spoken to him about this, he’s convinced he canonically becomes Cassandra somehow.

[Flap Jack]

Wow, OK, that is a lot to unpack from one sentence.

[Dave]

I’ve spoken to him about this, he’s convinced he canonically becomes Cassandra somehow.

[Renegade Rob]

The Doctor after seeing a vision of his granddaughter and flying through the airlock:

[Author]

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