Russell Two Davies

[Nick R]

Apparently, today there was some news about a change to Doctor Who’s production staff, in some obscure behind-the-scenes role. I don’t know if anyone else heard about it?

Topic

[Ben Saunders]

With rumours of the Disney deal coming to an end and Gatwa potentially leaving

I’ve been ignoring these rumours as much as possible since we’ve been heaing “the show is going to be cancelled” -type rumours since at least Series Seven. They are louder now than ever before but still only hearsay.

[Dave]

Maybe. It does seem odd though that there aren’t even any plans for a Christmas special this year, so soon after the big relaunch.

I wouldn’t be surprised if next week’s episode ends on a regeneration. If they managed to pull off a secret new Doctor it would be quite a coup.

[sleepey]

Introducing… David Tennant as the 16th Doctor!

[Nick R]

Introducing… David Tennant as the 16th Doctor!

[Ben Saunders]

Ok yeah, I forgot how crap this looked as well. Like it was done at the very least minute for no money

[Ben Saunders]

Put on Tomb of the Cybermen because I want to get back into Classic Who and it’s one of the best for that. It struck me here how much Jamie looks like Rogue.

[Ridley]

Like it was done at the very least minute for no money

Maybe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9Qrq1wFZGY&t=139s

[Renegade Rob]

Part of me wants the show to go on hiatus again at least for a couple years, if only because when RTD inevitably reboots the show again five years later, we’ll get to make a new thread called Russell Three Davies, which obviously gels way better as a pun. 

[Ian Symes]

The show won’t be cancelled. There’s nothing currently confirmed, but that’s because they’re waiting for Disney to decide whether they want to keep pumping money in. If so, things carry on as they are. If not, the BBC commissions it and we go back to having a more modest budget. Either way there’ll be a short gap because they can’t shoot anything until a decision is made. I reckon one way or the other, it’s back Christmas 2026 with the next series in Spring 2027.

[Flap Jack]

It’s sad, because the trade off was meant to be “yes, each series will have fewer episodes than before, but the series will be annual again!” but it looks like we got that deal exactly once. Think we’ll get those extra 2-5 episodes back if we have to wait an extra 6 months to a year for each new series… ? 😕

Weird to think that Gatwa will have to get a 4th series to clock up as many episodes as Whittaker did in 3 series, and Whittaker already had the joint lowest episode count ever for a multi-series Doctor (tied with Colin Baker, who only did 2 and a bit series and actively got sacked).

[Ian Symes]

the trade off was meant to be “yes, each series will have fewer episodes than before, but the series will be annual again!”

RTD is a master at spinning each and every development as being a positive. Even contradictory ones – he’s spent the last two years talking about how fantastic it is that the episodes are released on demand so that everyone can watch at their own pace and its the future of television etc. Now the finale isn’t being released in advance, that’s brilliant because everyone can come together and watch it as one.

[cwickham]

See also Moffat presenting BBC-mandated decisions such as splitting Series 6 in half as basically being his own idea, and when executives essentially vetoed the Eighth Doctor being in The Day of the Doctor on the grounds that Paul McGann wasn’t enough of a draw he came up with a lie about choosing not to use him in order to spare McGann’s feelings.

[Dave]

Yeah, that’s what you do in your job, you follow the company line. Which is fine, but it’s also fine for us to sort through that and call out the bullshit.

From my perspective, the way the Disney deal has turned out might have been good for the show in terms of budget, but it hasn’t been very good for the show in other ways – like delivering as many episodes as they once did in the past as regularly as they once did in the past. To be just two years in and already at a point where the show is headed back into a production limbo is not a great outcome.

I don’t think I’m along in thinking that Doctor Who doesn’t need a huge budget to be good – it needs great ideas, and variety in terms of the different stories it tells. And I don’t think the Disney deal has added anything in that regard, which is a shame (and the reduced episode counts don’t help there). And the episodes debuting on streaming ahead of the BBC broadcast has also been bad for the show from a fan point of view.

Ultimately I think it would be a very different story right now if the show had been a roaring success on Disney+, and/or had recaptured some of its appeal in the UK – we’d likely have had a third series already greenlit and a stronger sense of where the show’s future lies. 

But sadly I don’t think it’s done either of those things (and we can argue about the reasons why), and the whole Disney+ deal and soft-reboot has ended up feeling quite bad for the show overall.

[Ben Saunders]

>Series is a soft reboot that even goes as far as resetting the numbering to act as a jumping-on point for brand new viewers

>Bring back Sutekh (last seen in 1975), Susan (1983), the Rani (1987), do a sequel to Midnight (2008), etc etc etc

[Dave]

I can’t believe RTD didn’t manage to bring new viewers on board by kicking off the reboot with specials featuring the lead actor from three Doctors ago that picked up on plot points from 2008, before launching into a new series that built up a huge mystery that wasn’t resolved, with a climax based around a returning villain from 1975, all the while teasing a mystery woman who turned out to be a returning villain from 1987, whose big plan in the second season was to bring back a returning villain from 1983, all of which might help to finally explain the backstory of a supporting character from 1963.

[Unrumble]

[Ben Saunders]

[Warbodog]

>Bring back Sutekh (last seen in 1975), Susan (1983), the Rani (1987), do a sequel to Midnight (2008), etc etc etc

That just sounds like he’s picking up directly where he left off after already doing Daleks, Cybermen, Masters, etc in the first round.

[Ben Saunders]

The Daleks have been arguably more popular than Doctor Who itself and are synonymous with the show so can hardly be discussed on the same terms as the Rani. The Cybermen had an entire two-parter dedicated to setting them up while the Rani just turned up, said “I’m the Rani” and started being evil. The Master’s importance within the show’s universe was set up well with the Face of Boe’s prophecy and how he is another Time Lord while the Doctor thinks he’s the only one; the reveal works basically as well without pre-existing knowledge of who The Master is. Both the Toymaker and Rani reveals just give us stock footage of their original appearances and say “this person is important, watch!”

[Dave]

the Toymaker

Oh yeah, I should have mentioned that the specials culminated in the appearance of a villain from 1966.

[Flap Jack]

In Russell’s defence, it’s not like he’d done anything to make people think he’d be good at soft rebooting Doctor Who.

[Dave]

In Russell’s defence, it’s not like he’d done anything to make people think he’d be good at soft rebooting Doctor Who.

Yeah, exactly. I was keen on his return as I thought he’d have good instincts for the show and would be able to work the same magic again. But it doesn’t feel like the same magic. It feels like it’s leaning more heavily into the deep-cut fanwank stuff and forgetting to put the primary emphasis on telling good stories week-to-week.

[Renegade Rob]

I don’t think I’m along in thinking that Doctor Who doesn’t need a huge budget to be good

Yeah but that bone palace set though. What a set! (Very Persona 5 honestly, as was much of that episode)

[Dave]

Yeah but that bone palace set though. What a set!

It’s very impressive, but when a story is unsatisfying I don’t switch it off at the end thinking “but at least the sets were great”.

I felt the same about the Amazon Lord of the Rings series – amazing production values, but the story just wasn’t there. It boggles my mind how much they can spend on this stuff without making sure the script is bulletproof first.

[Ridley]

That Fountain of Youth movie is the same. Money visibly put into it and plenty of people saying its screenplay was scraped up by AI.

Jim from the Office’s archaeologist father was called Harrison. DO YOU SEE?

[Renegade Rob]

I’m obviously being slightly facetious, but that was an impressive and very specifically detailed set in a way that lit up my neurons creatively, which is part of the reason I watch Doctor Who in the first place. I give partial credit where it’s due. 

The Whittaker Era in general was often me going, wow I’m not entertained narratively or emotionally but hey at least the spaceships looked really cool. Also a lot of 80’s Who squeaks across the acceptability line by the sheer 80’s sci-fi kitsch of the production design honestly.

But that’s leeway I give to Doctor Who and basically no other show because Doctor Who as a project is such a creative smorgasbord. I’m not about to give set design points to say, a shitty episode of NCIS: Miami and be like, wow, shitty episode but the set design of that yacht they raided was top notch. 

[Technopeasant]

As a non-viewing lurker, I have to admit bringing Omega back sounds like at least one bridge too far. Even JNT would space out his returning baddies over an entire anniversary season… ironically including Omega.

[Asclepius]

I can’t believe RTD didn’t manage to bring new viewers on board by kicking off the reboot with specials featuring the lead actor from three Doctors ago that picked up on plot points from 2008, before launching into a new series that built up a huge mystery that wasn’t resolved, with a climax based around a returning villain from 1975, all the while teasing a mystery woman who turned out to be a returning villain from 1987, whose big plan in the second season was to bring back a returning villain from 1983, all of which might help to finally explain the backstory of a supporting character from 1963.

Wasn’t it in Tennant’s second season that we had Family of Blood and we saw drawings in a book of some of his previous incarnations? That was a good pay-off and a nice hat-tip to fans of the olden days. That was enough. It was exciting. Or having multiple Doctors later, and rarely, and for cameos. That was fine too, as we know the Doctor has previous forms. Here are some others. Or bring back the Master and make it so scary and unexpected that even people who don’t know who he is – my kid, for one! – are scared. But this stuff with the Rani, Sutekh, Omega….it’s unearned. Things aren’t scary just because you say they are.

I could turn on the TV now and watch Turn Left for the fifth time, and I bet you I’ll be crying at one part of it. Either the Italians off to the concentration camp, or Donna realising she’s going to die. It’s brilliant writing. Astonishing. Where has that writer gone?

[Asclepius]

>Bring back Sutekh (last seen in 1975), Susan (1983), the Rani (1987), do a sequel to Midnight (2008), etc etc etc

That just sounds like he’s picking up directly where he left off after already doing Daleks, Cybermen, Masters, etc in the first round.

But with the Dalek, it was seeded so amazingly. Here is one Dalek. A damaged Dalek. It is trapped. Oh look, it’s killing everybody now, and you can’t stop it. And then bring it back – but LOADS of them – a few episodes later. Because you know they’re really scary. Because you’ve seen it. Not because you’ve been told it. Or that you’re being asked to go onto IPlayer to watch an Old Thing.

[Asclepius]

the Toymaker
Oh yeah, I should have mentioned that the specials culminated in the appearance of a villain from 1966.

I thought this worked tbh. We met the character. Saw his weirdness. Saw that he was scary and unnerving, and later on matched him against the Doctor. We *saw* that he was bad, rather than just being told it.

[Ridley]

I haven’t seen The Celestial Toymaker but The Giggle was perfectly adequate in showing his threat.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Yeah for someone who hasn’t seen most of the classic series I’ve no issue catching up with who the older characters are 

I’ll admit the Rani is dumped in as if you should just know who she is, much more so than Toy Maker, Suketh etc, who are all suitably given “this is an old evil threat” preamble. 

But then having since watched The Mark of the Rani, she isn’t introduced any better there either. It’s been two decades of show she hasn’t been in and The Doctor acts as if he know her well and it just carries on from there 

The Rani here is at least introduced via “oh shit another bi-generation, I wonder what’s happening. Aren’t all the time lords dead (again)”

Point is in general not knowing the back story doesn’t take away from the enjoyment of the episodes. And if anyone wants to know a quick wiki search will do. Or even fire up iPlayer as they’re all there. 

[Unrumble]

[Ian Symes]

Not all of them.

[Ben Saunders]

I was about to ask why they didn’t do a Tales of the TARDIS for The Three Doctors, but they did. They also did The Time Meddler, Curse of Fenric, Vengeance on Varos, Earthshock and The Mind Robber, so expect next season’s finale to be an adaptation of Legend of the Cybermen featuring Sil and The Meddling Monk opening a portal to the Fenric dimension or something.

[Flap Jack]

Yeah, I don’t see anything inherently wrong with bringing back classic villains, even obscure ones. Bring back the Drahvins, bring back the Menoptra, bring back the Vardans, bring back Helen A, go nuts. It’s all just down to execution.

So if midway through The Reality War, The Doctor says “You don’t know about The Rani? Hold up, let me bring up the Whoniverse on iPlayer” then it’s safe to say the execution was not amazing.

[Ben Saunders]

Bringing back villains isn’t the problem, telling us they’re evil and bad by having a character say “they’re evil and bad btw” is the problem.

The way they talk about Omega in this episode is exactly the way they talk about Sutekh in the last Part One, “ougghhhh look out for this guy, he’s the god of all gods or something idk ahhh”

[Unrumble]

Not all of them.

[Unrumble]

For the record, I actually don’t mind CB (and I haven’t heard his much vaunted Big Finish stuff). But ‘The Twin Dilemma’ is pretty indefensible.

[Asclepius]

I was about to ask why they didn’t do a Tales of the TARDIS for The Three Doctors, but they did. They also did The Time Meddler, Curse of Fenric, Vengeance on Varos, Earthshock and The Mind Robber, so expect next season’s finale to be an adaptation of Legend of the Cybermen featuring Sil and The Meddling Monk opening a portal to the Fenric dimension or something.

I was holding on hope that the reason Tom Baker didn’t do a “Tales…” wasn’t for health reasons or anything, and that he was being held back to make an appearance in the ‘Pyramids of Mars’ one. Possibly alongside Ncuti. But sadly it wasn’t to be.

[Renegade Rob]

I did sort of like how they feint here and there towards the Rani being amoral instead of evil, since her whole concept is she’s cold and sciencey and not evil for evil’s sake, but every time they start to elaborate, it gets interrupted, like Conrad on TV in the background explaining how she thought she could be friends with the Doctor but then it cuts away and it’s like no… finish your story! 

Seems deliberate. Like the corrosive microorganism thing in The Beginning. 

[sleepey]

For the record, I actually don’t mind CB (and I haven’t heard his much vaunted Big Finish stuff). But ‘The Twin Dilemma’ is pretty indefensible.

It’s indefensible in the sense that it’s completely middle-of-the-road for the era & not worth getting worked up about, despite also not being remotely as bad or crazy as everyone says. It’s the Sonic Forces of 80s Who.

[Renegade Rob]

It’s the Sonic Forces of 80s Who.

That is a low blow. 

[Dave]

It’s the Sonic Forces of 80s Who.

Can you create your own Doctor Who character, the stupider-looking the better, and have it interact with the rest of the cast?

[Renegade Rob]

Obviously not, but in fairness, you CAN have random portals open up that unexpectedly spit out versions of you from another point in your timeline. 

[Technopeasant]

I get the impression that if it hadn’t been following The Caves of Androzani that The Twin Dillema would be better remembered.

On that note, does anyone else agree it is bizarre that Androzani isn’t on Bluray yet? And not just because it means we are one Colin short of his complete run (we even got the creep-free version of A Fix With Sontarans).

Also, those plot descriptions on iPlayer are singularly unhelpful aren’t they?

[sleepey]

.

[Ridley]

On that note, does anyone else agree it is bizarre that Androzani isn’t on Bluray yet?

Tactical release schedule when releasing a complete set of something with so many instalments.

[Ian Symes]

The Twin Dilemma might possibly have been merely mediocre if you were judging it just on the main story (although it is pretty awful), but I can’t separate it from the single worst portrayal of the Doctor ever. I’d rather not go for the obvious when citing a worst episode ever, but the way the Doctor is written and characterised is absolutely abhorrent. 

[Ridley]

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[Author]

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