Russell Two Davies

[Nick R]

Apparently, today there was some news about a change to Doctor Who’s production staff, in some obscure behind-the-scenes role. I don’t know if anyone else heard about it?

Topic

[Dave]

[Flap Jack]

It takes a lot to get me to link to Reddit, but this did give me a chuckle:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DoctorWhumour/comments/1kos82t/game_over/

[Renegade Rob]

I’ve spoken to him about this, he’s convinced he canonically becomes Cassandra somehow.

Wait, Troilus’ sister from The Myth Makers? That’s a really deep cut but I’m not sure that makes sense in the narrative. 

[Asclepius]

The whole point about Earth being destroyed in May 2025 really sits weirdly with the Bad Wolf-esque current day pop culture inclusion. So I guess that in the Doctor Who canon, Rylan Clarke was forced into a cryogenic tube and shot into space in, what, April of this year?
I’ve spoken to him about this, he’s convinced he canonically becomes Cassandra somehow.

I would like to have been there for this conversation. Subject matter aside, you both have a very different vibe…

[Flap Jack]

Rude. Like 2 peas in a pod, Ian and Rylan are.

Also I must formally apologise to Rylan, as I have discovered his surname is spelled “Clark”. I deeply regret this unfortunate error.

[Asclepius]

Rude. Like 2 peas in a pod, Ian and Rylan are.
Also I must formally apologise to Rylan, as I have discovered his surname is spelled “Clark”. I deeply regret this unfortunate error.

In Doctor Who Unleashed, Rylan says he’s been a Who fan “all his life”. Since it came back. In 2005. When he was 17.

I would like to see someone try that schtick on Ian. “Yeah, I was there at the start! Back to Earth! I was 19 years old. It was amazing. ALL MY LIFE I’ve been in to it” and Ian’s biting his cheeks smiling gently, rocking slightly perhaps, focussing on the wall behind them.

[Dave]

I think people forget that the show did still have a presence even when it wasn’t being actively produced during the nineties. There were repeats of old serials on TV, there was the McGann TV movie, there were plenty of other spinoff comics and books etc. – there was still plenty of Doctor Who stuff around.

I think it’s perfectly understandable to feel like you’ve been a lifelong fan of Doctor Who while also feeling like the reboot era is where your era of the show began. I’m a little older than Rylan is (so at a young age I was able to catch the tail end of the McCoy years, which is where my enjoyment of the show started) but definitely feel like there was still plenty of awareness of Doctor Who throughout the cancellation years.

[Ben Saunders]

I used to watch the Doctor Who Omnibus on early mornings on UKTV Gold before the show was revived, and my dad had the two Dalek movies on VHS, so I have been a Doctor Who fan my entire life even though the first episode I watched on broadcast was The Unquiet Dead when I was nearly 10. I would say that “my Doctor” was Matt Smith.

I’m also a life long fan of Red Dwarf, which stopped airing when I was 4 and wouldn’t air again until I was 13. I started watching it on VHS when I was like 6 or something.

[Asclepius]

I think people forget that the show did still have a presence even when it wasn’t being actively produced during the nineties. There were repeats of old serials on TV, there was the McGann TV movie, there were plenty of other spinoff comics and books etc. – there was still plenty of Doctor Who stuff around.

I think it’s perfectly understandable to feel like you’ve been a lifelong fan of Doctor Who while also feeling like the reboot era is where your era of the show began. I’m a little older than Rylan is (so at a young age I was able to catch the tail end of the McCoy years, which is where my enjoyment of the show started) but definitely feel like there was still plenty of awareness of Doctor Who throughout the cancellation years.

I phrased it really badly, tbh. Wasn’t meant to be a put down of Rylan at all, who I genuinely like, and who I thought absolutely *nailed* the part.

More that getting ‘really into’ something at 17, and comparing it to the stories on the Dwarcasts of the three Dwarf-sketeers starting watching it at, what, eight or nine years old, reading Smegazines, setting up websites, coordinating conventions etc by a similar age. I went with ‘Back to Earth’ as a comparison because that’s probably the Eccleston-season equivalent in series terms. Just was slightly differently received, and had slightly fewer viewers.

[Flap Jack]

I’d prefer not to gatekeep Rylan on this. “all my life” is a misspeak, but for Doctor Who if you turned away the New Who only people, that would be a majority of the fanbase. Doctor Who (2005-) is a distinct show from Doctor Who (1963-1989) in many respects, and Rylan seems to genuinely be a big fan. Compare and contrast Graham Norton, who famously isn’t.

Doctor Who is also an extremely different prospect to Red Dwarf. Dwarf only started in the late 80s, never changed its core 3 cast members, and even now only has 74 episodes total to get through. Who on the other hand started in the early 60s, effectively soft reboots itself every few years, and it has around 900 episodes total – nearly 100 of which you have to watch as reconstructions. So someone getting into Doctor Who will naturally start at the beginning of the current Doctor (or at 2005 at most) and only delve into the classics if they’re especially hardcore, but someone getting into Red Dwarf will naturally start at Series 1 and just watch it all in order.

The accessibility/affordability of the modern series compared to the classic series is also a factor, but this has now been mostly levelled by iPlayer, although some key episodes still aren’t on there.

[Ian Symes]

He’s only been “Rylan” since his late teens, so he could have been a DW fan for all of his life as “Rylan”. Same way Robert Llewellyn only existed after Robert Charles Allen had been around for years.

[Asclepius]

I suppose if I had said Doctor Who was more popular than Red Dwarf, I would have got away with it. I’m sorry I opened my mouth. I’m not anti-Rylan, anti-Who, or anti-Dwarf. I was not knocking it. I believe in Rylan, but not as one thing, not as an old man in the sky. I believe that what people call ‘Rylan’ is something in all of us. I’m sorry I said it, really. I never meant it to be a lousy anti-Rylan thing. If you want me to apologise, if that will make you happy, then OK, I’m sorry.

[Flap Jack]

I’m afraid it’s too late for an apology Asclepius. Your cancellation is being fast tracked as we speak.

[Ridley]

[Dave]

[Nick R]

[Rushy]

Funnily enough, I was thinking throughout this series that a way to bring the Time Lords back

I’m still confused why they can’t just be alive and scattered in a thousand little colonies after fleeing from Gallifrey. It’s the simplest and most realistic option and honestly I’m baffled they didn’t go for that way back in Hell Bent. It would open up so many story possibilities as well. 

[Dave]

I think the truth is that the in-story logic (around why the Timelords and Gallifrey are all gone) is always going to be a bit shaky, especially in a show where time travel exists and offers so many potential get-outs.

The real reason they’re gone is for the good of the show. The Doctor is far more interesting when he’s a unique, lone timelord making his way through the universe, and it means that when they do want to introduce timelords and ladies (like the Master or the Rani or whoever), it makes much more of an impact when it’s a rare occurence. 

[Ben Saunders]

The Doctor is far more interesting when he’s a unique, lone timelord making his way through the universe

I’d say this isn’t strictly true because I’m much more interested in Tom Baker or Jon Pertwee than Ncuti Gatwa, it’s not an automatic thing. The Doctor is interesting because he comes from a society of such great privelige, prestige, wealth and non-intervention yet he rejects all of that and feels an obligation to explore and later help the universe.

The Master is still interesting despite being one of millions of Time Lords because of his personal connection to the Doctor and the equal-but-opposite Sherlock v Moriarty slash fiction thing they’ve got going on.

The last of the time lords shit was great the first time around, but now it feels as if RTD doesn’t know how to, or doesn’t want to write the show any differently than he used to (except now he’s lost at least half of his sauce).

[Ridley]

The Doctor is far more interesting when he’s a unique, lone timelord making his way through the universe, and it means that when they do want to introduce timelords and ladies (like the Master or the Rani or whoever), it makes much more of an impact when it’s a rare occurence. 

Not sure that’s the case anymore. When the revival first started up, sure, but the Doctor can be outlier to the rest of the Time Lords whether they’re dead, lost or just over there somewhere, the trick is to not get bogged down by lore. The Doctor can realise Earth became home forever ago.

[Flap Jack]

I don’t think the Time Lords being dead or alive fundamentally changes what The Doctor feels like as a character (other than how much time they dedicate to angst), but them being dead feeds modern showrunners’ desire to do huge story arcs with universe-ending stakes. The Time Lords are non-interventionist arseholes who won’t get out of bed to save a planet, but if your story involves someone shouting “DETONATE! THE REALITY BOMB!!!” then you do kind of need to either involve the Time Lords or directly explain why they can’t help, if they’re around.

But as someone who’s pretty much tired of season long arcs and universal or multiversal stakes, I’m definitely on Team “The Time Lords should be alive”. You can still do end of universe stuff with them around, but the need to incorporate them would prevent you from going there too often, and showing how even the Time Lords can’t resolve a situation would work to sell how serious it is.

It’s also a shame just from a worldbuilding perspective. Expanded media has well demonstrated that the Time Lords have a lot of story potential, so it’s a waste to just kill them off and never get to see it realised. I felt the same way when Chris Chibnall killed off all the Lupari in the same series they were introduced. Why even bother?

[Technopeasant]

Maybe they should just go back to the original status quo of the Time Lords being around and the Doctor hiding from them?

[Technopeasant]

 The Time Lords are non-interventionist arseholes who won’t get out of bed to save a planet, but if your story involves someone shouting “DETONATE! THE REALITY BOMB!!!” then you do kind of need to either involve the Time Lords or directly explain why they can’t help, if they’re around.

I mean, that never stopped Marvel from ignoring why the other Avengers never show up in the standalone movies. My favorite is still in Iron Man 3 when apparently Captain America wasn’t bothered when the actual President of the United States was kidnapped.

And correct me if I am wrong (I easily could be), but doesn’t this Pantheon bullshit imply the Time Lords are actually small fry? Which sounds terrible, if true, but anyways…

[Dave]

And correct me if I am wrong (I easily could be), but doesn’t this Pantheon bullshit imply the Time Lords are actually small fry?

[Asclepius]

Ah! That sense of relief that someone got it. Thanks :)

Not obvious what I’m quoting from! Nick R and the Simpsons gif.

[Renegade Rob]

I always thought that Division Station in Flux was cool, basically an ark between universes, so if they use something like that to explain the Time Lords’ absence, that’s fine, it’s all you need. 

Even if they say, “The Time Lords have outgrown their desert planet, they’ve read the room, and since everyone hates them and they likewise hate everyone, they’ve decided to consciously uncouple from this universe and have elected to take their business elsewhere to another universe,” that would more than suffice, and would totally fit their character. 

Which would make the Doctor once again the last of the Time Lords but now instead carrying grief and loss, he’d be carrying shame and anger, since he’s the only one who gives enough of a shit to stick around and help. Time Lords would be like those rich people who could help when a country has civil and political strife but instead decide to peace out to their villa in Tahiti. 

(Apologies for once again losing the battle with single spacing)

[Asclepius]

Can’t seem to quote gifs on here. But I appreciate the Asclepius one. Yeah, guilty of the first I suppose. Fell down a rabbit hole and got nosey. Although the las time I got nosey about where someone lived, I came across this gem, so my nosing around is clearly of value.  

Probably moaning about cancel-culture.

[Asclepius]

I think the truth is that the in-story logic (around why the Timelords and Gallifrey are all gone) is always going to be a bit shaky, especially in a show where time travel exists and offers so many potential get-outs.
The real reason they’re gone is for the good of the show. The Doctor is far more interesting when he’s a unique, lone timelord making his way through the universe, and it means that when they do want to introduce timelords and ladies (like the Master or the Rani or whoever), it makes much more of an impact when it’s a rare occurence. 

I’d 100% remembered that the Time Lords had been wiped out in the Time War, but also remembered about the 50th, where we found they hadn’t actually be wiped out. That’s why it seemed off for Ncuti to be mentioning himself being ‘the last of them’ again. Wasn’t ’til I went on a forum and remembered about The Timeless Children where all the Timelords become Cybermen and then…die? Which I hadn’t remembered, despite having watched it with my own eyes and listened to it with my ears.

[Flap Jack]

Quoting a gif? Hang on, let me try it.

[Flap Jack]

As I thought, all is possible with the power of HTML and Code View! Just copy the ‘img’ element from the DOM, wrap it in ‘blockquote’ tags, and you’re away.

[Warbodog]

I have to make a quote box and then paste the image link in.

The Timeless Children arc will remain one of those weird bits of apocrypha like Lungbarrow that I see discussed but never get around to so I don’t have to think about it.

[Dave]

nosing around is clearly of value.

[Asclepius]

As I thought, all is possible with the power of HTML and Code View! Just copy the ‘img’ element from the DOM, wrap it in ‘blockquote’ tags, and you’re away.

This sounds sexual and I don’t wish to partake.

[Dave]

[Renegade Rob]

[Dave]

Hopefully this weekend’s episode begins with the Two Ranis lighting four candles.

(It’s been almost a week and it’s literally only just occurred to me to make that joke.)

[Ridley]

There are worse things Dave could repeat from the Two Ronnies.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Very little to say about this. Another part 1/2 finale that doesn’t have too much happening 

The Wish World gives me lots of Wedding of River Song vibes with the collapsing reality making all time happen at once and nothing being quite right and everyone questioning it. 

Immediately thought of Timewave vibes with the ”no doubting”

It was entertaining enough, let’s see how it ends next week. 

[Flap Jack]

No fucking way.

[Dave]

I thought this week’s episode was a bit crap. We get the concept of the alternate world fairly early on, and after that it’s just a lot of waffley treading water until the cliffhanger reveals, which weren’t all that exciting and which end the episode with a bit of a clunk.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Overlooked, so far, ironically, but I do like the idea of the disabled characters being invisible to everyone else that they’re able to move about in a way without being seen.  It’s a clever bit of social commentary that fits the world being created by a singular, a cruel, mind.

[sleepey]

The core idea & execution of them living in a fascist’s idea of utopia, & it inevitably crumbling in contact with reality, is really excellent. I’m also enjoying the Rani’s return, even if they haven’t quite done enough to make her more than The Master 2 so far. Of course the whole thing topples over into RTD nonsense by the end but I still really enjoyed the episode, & will continue to like it for exactly one week, until it’s permanently bolted to the side of some stupid garbage & rendered unsalvageable (not that I’m pre-judging part 2 or anything)

[Ridley]

So, uh, the Timeless Child, Omega and the Doctor’s Daughter on a collision course?

[Flap Jack]

So, uh, the Timeless Child, Omega and the Doctor’s Daughter on a collision course?

Yes, and the only way to avoid it is if they team up to enter AR and help K9 defeat the Apocalypse Boys.

[Nick R]

[Ian Symes]

Very much enjoyed Flap Jack’s post, but also enjoyed the fact that there was actually footage from Dimensions in Time in the episode.

My overall thoughts on the episode: Jesus Christ, calm down, Russell. If you insist on bringing back every last classic era villain, at least do them one at a time. There is simply not enough time for all of this resolved satisfactorily in one episode. And if we don’t get a proper Susan appearance before it’s too late, I will riot.

[Dave]

 enjoyed the fact that there was actually footage from Dimensions in Time in the episode.

Remastered and Xtended (horizontally), no less.

[Ben Saunders]

Another excellent Episode One of Two from Russel T Davies. Edge of my seat stuff, weird and mysterious. I did have you-know-who spoiled for me by TikTok on the train home from a gig last night, though.

Will he stick the landing? Probably not.

[Ben Saunders]

The special effects got really shit towards the very end, there. From this shot onwards. Which is strange because the rest of the episode, even similar shots from earlier looked so fantastic. It just suddenly got a bit crap for the last forty seconds.

[Dave]

With rumours of the Disney deal coming to an end and Gatwa potentially leaving, I do wonder if they had to rework the cliffhanger point of this two-parter to accommodate anything additional they might have shot to add on to the end of next week’s episode. That could explain some slightly rough shots being added at short notice. 

[Author]

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