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Personally I will always be grateful to him for fighting to get the character seen on screen in the very beginning. For that reason, he did play a big part in the success of the show for the first 5 series (albeit Hattie may as well not have been in Series V).

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The last I heard they were accepting new members anyway so, if that’s still the case, shouldn’t be a problem signing up.

On the subject of The 10%ers, I had always foolishly assumed that Doug wrote or co-wrote each episode as he did in Dwarf Series VII and VIII. I didn’t realise that there are many episodes that he doesn’t have a writing credit on at all and a couple of others where he was one of three writers. I’m glad that he didn’t go down the same route with Dwarf.

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I’ve never visited the site myself you understand, but thebox.bz

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The pilot and both series of 10%ers are also there to watch and have been for a while I think.

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I’m not sure whether I’m allowed to mention specifics here.

Ok, have edited my post just in case. Unfortunately it now helps nobody.

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> And Rimmer hitting his dick with a hammer.

I do quite like the image of Doug suggesting the concept of Rimmer intentionally and repeatedly whacking his lovespuds with a hammer and the script editor, Ed, Chris etc. all agreeing unquestioningly that it was a great idea. There is a wonderful degree of lunacy in that.

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Surely the version on the DVD is close to 90 minutes long.

So if Doug had had his wish, the one hour broadcast version would have been very different and contained plenty of cuts?

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Nice to see them getting on so well and enjoyable to watch even if nothing new was covered.

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Graham Fellows should appear in far more things imo…if he wants to obviously.

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Janine Duvitski

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Robert Daws
Tim Spall
James Fleet
Emma Chambers
Alastair McGowan
Philip Jackson
Harry Hill
Felicity Montagu
Rebecca Front
Owen Brenman

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Personally I think that the Dwarfcasts for the Series VII and VIII eps were the most interesting because there was a more of a debate to be had about their merits and debits.

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It`s like I always say, if you don`t like what somebody else is saying then start pedantically picking on their use of the English language.

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Of course it`s true that it is all subjective. I think it`s fair to say though that the general opinion is that both Dwarf and The Office have been excellent shows on the whole. People on this board are obviously more likely to rate Dwarf higher but that`s down to preference rather than quality.

The general opinion of BTE however, is that it isn`t in the same league as any of The Office or the first 6 series of Dwarf though. I don`t think that`s unfair.

I`m not sure how anybody can guess as to whether The Office will stand the test of time. How can anybody decide now on what will be timeless?

The script for The Invention of Lying was very warmly received so hopefully the film will live up to it.

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> Why would Doug write a script that wouldn?t have appeal across the board?
Clever, obscure gags are all well and good, but is that really the way to reach a large audience?

I don`t think that`s what the reviewer will have been saying at all really. Dwarf had been successful for 52 eps without having to resort to lazy gags stating, `people who don`t like sci-fi have small penises`. It also had never had to make such constant references about the show itself.

Now if people liked them then they obviously wouldn`t see a problem but the general feeling from a lot of the reviews that I`ve read is that while the cast and the look of the specials were great, Doug`s writing wasn`t. For the people who feel like that, it obviously is an issue.

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> It?s strange how continuity references often annoy the fans that spot them. When I?d imagine most of the audience is oblivious as to whether they are specific references or just backstory.

I think that the example that you gave would have stuck out less. Maybe because it was more recent and maybe because it would have been just 1 throwaway line.

Much of the stuff in BTE Part 2 was lazy imo and certainly overdone. Not just the Dwarf references but the gag about people who dislike sci-fi was cringeworthy and horribly unsubtle.

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> So he?d prefer gags that didn?t please people, then ??

I think you are intentionally misunderstanding what the phrase `crowd-pleasing` means there.

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> I say he?ll be remembered for The Office but that?s not specific enough. I?m ?>guessing more people have watched interviews with him, more people think of >Jonathan Ross interviewing him, and have listened to the podcasts than have ever >watched The Office. People will think of the dancing scene and of people doing >pisstakes of the dancing scene. Nothing more.

You are a fool.

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I think rewatching Series VII and VIII would only make me like BTE less. The best bits in the specials were, imo, the dramatic bits about Kochanski but they only work at all if I completely wipe from my mind Doug`s abysmal writing for that character in those series. I don`t go along with Doug`s belif that it was Chloe`s fault the character was disliked.

I would still be interested to see a 60 minute cut of BITR too but Andrew has said that he rates the extended cut as his second favourite Dwarf ep ever so I guess it`s understandable that it was included on the DVD in that form.

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> I seriously think that MBB should return, with Gary & Tony being alot older, but unbelievably imature. THAT would be better than this.

Caroline Quentin doesn`t want it to return and she is probably sensible. I`m not sure why it would be better as well. It would still be written by Nye but he wouldn`t have someone of David Nobbs` calibre to work with.

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I quite enjoyed it and it seems that a lot of the reactions to it have been pretty positive which is unusual for a revamp.

Certainly broader than the original but taken on its own merits it had some nice jokes and some promise for future episodes. Laughter should have been toned down though.

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I love the first series but can`t watch the other 2. Stuke`s character was just too different for me and it wasn`t the same show anymore.

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> Would you ask the same question about Maid Marian?

The difference for me would be that Chris`s character is the best thing in Brittas whereas Danny`s character is the worst thing in Marian.

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> Though I?d like Hattie back. She didn?t do too badly in ?Ace Rimmer: A Life in Lame?

Sometimes on this site people sound so sincere…when they must surely be being sarcastic.

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> Waiting for God is spoiled by the cat priest scene imo, which is ill-timed, and should probably have been completely re-written. But that?s more than compensated for by the Quagaar subplot which is just wonderful.

Completely agree. When I watched that ep again recently I enjoyed it and the priest scene thankfully doesn`t go on for that long.

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> What, the guy who took to growing mould and naming it to get under Rimsy?s skin?

I can see what you`re saying but I would say that leaving mould to grow is much more believable. Firstly, because lots of people have actually done that when they`ve been behaving slobbily. Secondly, because it takes little or no effort. And finally, because eating a food that you hate and are allergic to in order to sneeze is a terrible idea imo. Perhaps if I found it funny I wouldn`t be complaining as much though.

On a mildly related note, I found it disappointing (being selfish probably) that neither of the bunk scenes had any real depth to them character wise. Some of my favourite stuff from the early series contains Rimmer and Lister discussing deep and meaningful things which we didn`t get in the specials. Considering the dramatic scenes that there are, I think it was a wasted opportunity that Doug took the Series VIII route there.

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> I took that as him deliberately winding up Kryten.

That probably was the intention but personally I don`t think it was well executed.

> How is any level of panicking by Rimmer ?OTT?? Perfectly in-character, I thought. And his complaining about having to watch them die specifically called to mind a similar bit in Future Echoes.

Perhaps it wasn`t helped by Chris`s performance but I found myself cringing during that scene. I also don`t think it makes his behaviour believable when a few seconds later he has forgotten all about it. I think the fan edit of that scene works soooo much better.

> Deliberately acting out of character to try and fit in?

Of course but I think, as others have said, that we were seeing Chris Barrie in that scene. Not Rimmer.

> I don?t much like whining Kryten, but you can?t exactly say it?s inconsistent with previous series.

Not inconsistent with Series VII certainly but Robert hadn`t really whined too much before that I don`t think.

> Rimmer can be a ruthless, get-to-the-top-at-all-costs bastard when he wants to be. He?s a big fan of war and warmongers, remember. I doubt he?d commit cold-blooded murder, but after being specifically given a reason why killing a hologram wouldn?t be considered murder, he acted out of cowardly self-preservation. See also his attitude to the wax-droids in Meltdown.

I don`t disagree.

> Not hugely funny, but I?m not sure what was out-of-character about it. A little regressive, I suppose, given that Lister got bored of winding up Rimmer years ago, so I?ll give you that one.

I just don`t think that the original Lister, from Series I-VI would have gone out of his way to pull a prank like that. Funny or not.

> Besides which, of course, there was an in-episode explanation and acknowledgement of certain moments being out of character, because it was the Creator pushing them to a certain point.

A problem that a lot of people seem to have though is that if you have them doing out of character things in an unreal world then perhaps it all just suggests that it wasn`t a good idea in the first place? Obviously the roughly 50% who enjoyed the specials will think differently which is fair enough.

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Well some of the criticisms that I`ve seen levelled quite a bit are…

Lister smiling at the thought of him and the cat dieing.
Wacky Kryten.
Whining Kryten.
The characters not taking time to get used to being fictional.
Rimmer murdering Katerina.
Rimmer`s OTT panicking when seeing the squid on the monitor.
The scene in the Kabin.
The opening scene.

I`m not sure whether I agree with all of the criticisms but I certainly think it was a long way from perfect.

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Can Doug capture the characters now? Opinion seems to be very split on that one.

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> But the problem with VII wasn?t, I think, bringing in other writers – it was bringing in writers who simply weren?t qualified enough.

Agree with this. The people who were brought in for Series VII really had mediocre CVs.

Obviously Rob would be the ideal person to work with Doug as history has proved that they have the judgment to filter out each other`s shit ideas.

If that wasn`t possible then I don`t think that just hiring a gag writer or 2 would solve things. I think that you would also need someone who knows about plot and characterization as Doug struggles with these at times.

Perhaps a new director and editor would be useful too.

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Favourites:

1, Future Echoes.
2, Queeg.
3, Marooned.
4, Dimension Jump.
5, Back to Reality.
6, Gunmen of the Apocalypse.
7, Blue (if pushed).
8, Cassandra.

Least Favourites.

1, Waiting for God.
2, Better than Life.
3, Bodyswap.
4, White Hole.
5, Demons and Angels.
6, Emohawk.
7, Duct Soup.
8, Pete Part 2.

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I don`t know whether people mentioned these earlier but the phone book joke is the same as the joke from Rimmerworld obviously.

The `Big` joke is from Pete as is Katerina standing behind Rimmer.

Katerina constructing the machine so quickly is from Only the Good.

The prediction that someone will die and it not coming true is from Cassandra.

Kryten`s holiday is from Justice as is Cat being hit on the head.

Cat being unaware of what`s behind him is from DNA.

And the decision to make so many references is from Die Another Day…considered by many to be the worst Bond film so maybe not the best idea Doug has ever had.

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Purely in terms of performance I would say Norman as I think he is definitely the funnier of the 2. As that won`t happen though, I would let the character die.

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> I?m a little fascinated by gladriel69?s comment:

>?I assume you cut the Monkey Boy line because you thought >it was racist? I?m sure the actors would have complained >if they thought it was. Also, its clearly in relation to >humans evolving from apes, not skin colour. I will add >though, as an aspiring writer I would have avoided it for >fear of offending the odd one or two people who would get >it wrong – you have been a valuable lesson, cheers.?

>What?

Yes, that is an interesting comment to say the least.

The stuff in the early series probably wouldn`t be done now maybe but this guy`s interpretation is bizarre.

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Interesting review.

It must be a bit tough for Doug and Andrew (if they look at these things) to constantly read that new writers should be brought in. Even from the pretty positive reviewers.

If Doug does record a commentary or interviews for the DVD over the coming days then it will be interesting to hear whether he responds to criticisms made and talks about any lessons learnt.

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Agree about that line. Also in an ideal world I would like Lister`s `that`s not right` lines cut because they just seem so wrong coming out of his mouth. That would probably mean that it wouldn`t make sense though.

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> I still don?t understand why the episodes were not filmed in front of a live audience

In terms of time, money and not wanting stories to leak it was understandable.

In terms of the actual episodes, I agree that they should have been filmed in front of an audience. The Back to Reality stuff the audience could have coped with (they did the first time after all) and the dramatic scenes weren`t too dramatic either. After all, other audience sitcoms have effectively dealt with the funerals of cast members in the past and not suffered.

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> I have provisionally placed BtE 28th (after only one viewing) in my personal all-time list. That puts it above the following Series 1-6 eps: The End, Demons and Angels, Bodyswap, Rimmerworld, Parallel Universe, Confidence and Paranoia, Better Than Life, Waiting for God and Emohawk: Polymorph 2.

As these eps were broadcast individually though, shouldn`t they be judged individually really? In the same way that G&T recently compiled a list of their favourite 52 eps a while ago considering BitR and Pete to be multi-parters.

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On a similar level to Series VII and below everything else.

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Yeah, excellent opening. I think you made it pretty much as good as it could be. Just a shame that some of the bits which I find cringeworthy need to be in there to make it make any sort of sense.

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I think this ep serves to remind everyone just how beautifully plotted Back to Reality is. In that episode all of the characters believably are taken from shock to despair gradually as the events unfold. In Back to Earth, maybe because the whole production had to be done so quickly, the same can`t be said.

I agree that for Kryten and Rimmer the reasons already given are probably correct but I`m not sure how believing they are going to die brings them joy. Then all 3 other characters are exposed to physical pain at Lister`s hands in the typewriter scene…

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> Nick, those viewing figures are massive for a cable channel. It?s normal for shows to lose viewers like that. A steady audience of 1m for a cable show is, well, about the biggest audience ever under such circumstances, as the recent Dave press release says.

Oh, I know that and I`ve said elsewhere that I think Dave will be very happy.

What I was saying though that whoever decided Dwarf shouldn`t come back to the BBC could use this as justification. They could say that it wouldn`t have sustained an audience and wasn`t considered to be an absolutely successful return or whatever. I`m not saying it would be absolutely accurate but they could use the figures in that way.

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Well it depends on who exactly it was who didn`t want Dwarf and why. They may feel vindicated now as the shows received mixed reviews and lost so many viewers after the first ep. For the BBC to go back to Dwarf now would be strange to me.

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> Anyway, next time you?re having a conversation about a topic that interests you, remind me to barge through your front door and start shouting in your face about something unrelated.

I wasn`t the one who started talking about rip offs if you look. And when the debate had started about whether one chunk of a show was a rip off then it was hardly unrelated to mention something else.

Anyway to get back on topic, that dialogue has only been around for 2 days and hasn`t stood the test of time yet. Also 50% of people already don`t really seem to rate the new eps. I think it`s far too early to be able to rank it as better than any of the character`s other moments from the past 20 years.

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> If only the episode had given some kind of explanation for why they were there. Sigh.

Why were they needed to bring joy to the characters? How often have they declared themselves mad keen Blade Runner fans who are desperate to remake scenes word for word?

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> Oh, thanks for derailing the thread by talking about something entirely different that?s already been discussed ad nauseam elsewhere, folks.

Making one reference to another show could be classed as an homage. Remaking entire scenes is rather more than that.

Threads often change topic don`t they. And as the scene where Lister and Kochanski are in the car is a rip off from Blade Runner it is perfectly valid to mention it.

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Saved by the Bell: The New Class?

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> It?s not a rip-off if you explicitly acknowledge that it?s a sequel

Even if that`s the case, the fact that the new angle was a rip off from Blade Runner was a rip off. You could argue that a lot of other things in the eps were rip offs from Dwarf too and one (terribly done gag) was a rip off from The Simpsons.

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I agree that the serious scenes were the best of the eps though and I wish there had been more (with some non-interfering humour thrown in). Can`t help feeling that that scene deserved more than to be followed by a very rushed and not very convincing wrap up and Danny singing the old song.

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I disagree…unsurprisingly. :-)

For one reason, the original scene on the bus made me cringe. Another reason would be that I think there are dozens of better scenes that Rob and Doug wrote together for the novels and Series I – VI.

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