Turk Thrust

[Turk Thrust]

> Though I?d like Hattie back. She didn?t do too badly in ?Ace Rimmer: A Life in Lame?

Sometimes on this site people sound so sincere…when they must surely be being sarcastic.

[Turk Thrust]

> Waiting for God is spoiled by the cat priest scene imo, which is ill-timed, and should probably have been completely re-written. But that?s more than compensated for by the Quagaar subplot which is just wonderful.

Completely agree. When I watched that ep again recently I enjoyed it and the priest scene thankfully doesn`t go on for that long.

[Turk Thrust]

> What, the guy who took to growing mould and naming it to get under Rimsy?s skin?

I can see what you`re saying but I would say that leaving mould to grow is much more believable. Firstly, because lots of people have actually done that when they`ve been behaving slobbily. Secondly, because it takes little or no effort. And finally, because eating a food that you hate and are allergic to in order to sneeze is a terrible idea imo. Perhaps if I found it funny I wouldn`t be complaining as much though.

On a mildly related note, I found it disappointing (being selfish probably) that neither of the bunk scenes had any real depth to them character wise. Some of my favourite stuff from the early series contains Rimmer and Lister discussing deep and meaningful things which we didn`t get in the specials. Considering the dramatic scenes that there are, I think it was a wasted opportunity that Doug took the Series VIII route there.

[Turk Thrust]

> I took that as him deliberately winding up Kryten.

That probably was the intention but personally I don`t think it was well executed.

> How is any level of panicking by Rimmer ?OTT?? Perfectly in-character, I thought. And his complaining about having to watch them die specifically called to mind a similar bit in Future Echoes.

Perhaps it wasn`t helped by Chris`s performance but I found myself cringing during that scene. I also don`t think it makes his behaviour believable when a few seconds later he has forgotten all about it. I think the fan edit of that scene works soooo much better.

> Deliberately acting out of character to try and fit in?

Of course but I think, as others have said, that we were seeing Chris Barrie in that scene. Not Rimmer.

> I don?t much like whining Kryten, but you can?t exactly say it?s inconsistent with previous series.

Not inconsistent with Series VII certainly but Robert hadn`t really whined too much before that I don`t think.

> Rimmer can be a ruthless, get-to-the-top-at-all-costs bastard when he wants to be. He?s a big fan of war and warmongers, remember. I doubt he?d commit cold-blooded murder, but after being specifically given a reason why killing a hologram wouldn?t be considered murder, he acted out of cowardly self-preservation. See also his attitude to the wax-droids in Meltdown.

I don`t disagree.

> Not hugely funny, but I?m not sure what was out-of-character about it. A little regressive, I suppose, given that Lister got bored of winding up Rimmer years ago, so I?ll give you that one.

I just don`t think that the original Lister, from Series I-VI would have gone out of his way to pull a prank like that. Funny or not.

> Besides which, of course, there was an in-episode explanation and acknowledgement of certain moments being out of character, because it was the Creator pushing them to a certain point.

A problem that a lot of people seem to have though is that if you have them doing out of character things in an unreal world then perhaps it all just suggests that it wasn`t a good idea in the first place? Obviously the roughly 50% who enjoyed the specials will think differently which is fair enough.

[Turk Thrust]

Well some of the criticisms that I`ve seen levelled quite a bit are…

Lister smiling at the thought of him and the cat dieing.
Wacky Kryten.
Whining Kryten.
The characters not taking time to get used to being fictional.
Rimmer murdering Katerina.
Rimmer`s OTT panicking when seeing the squid on the monitor.
The scene in the Kabin.
The opening scene.

I`m not sure whether I agree with all of the criticisms but I certainly think it was a long way from perfect.

[Turk Thrust]

Can Doug capture the characters now? Opinion seems to be very split on that one.

[Turk Thrust]

> But the problem with VII wasn?t, I think, bringing in other writers – it was bringing in writers who simply weren?t qualified enough.

Agree with this. The people who were brought in for Series VII really had mediocre CVs.

Obviously Rob would be the ideal person to work with Doug as history has proved that they have the judgment to filter out each other`s shit ideas.

If that wasn`t possible then I don`t think that just hiring a gag writer or 2 would solve things. I think that you would also need someone who knows about plot and characterization as Doug struggles with these at times.

Perhaps a new director and editor would be useful too.

[Turk Thrust]

Favourites:

1, Future Echoes.
2, Queeg.
3, Marooned.
4, Dimension Jump.
5, Back to Reality.
6, Gunmen of the Apocalypse.
7, Blue (if pushed).
8, Cassandra.

Least Favourites.

1, Waiting for God.
2, Better than Life.
3, Bodyswap.
4, White Hole.
5, Demons and Angels.
6, Emohawk.
7, Duct Soup.
8, Pete Part 2.

[Turk Thrust]

I don`t know whether people mentioned these earlier but the phone book joke is the same as the joke from Rimmerworld obviously.

The `Big` joke is from Pete as is Katerina standing behind Rimmer.

Katerina constructing the machine so quickly is from Only the Good.

The prediction that someone will die and it not coming true is from Cassandra.

Kryten`s holiday is from Justice as is Cat being hit on the head.

Cat being unaware of what`s behind him is from DNA.

And the decision to make so many references is from Die Another Day…considered by many to be the worst Bond film so maybe not the best idea Doug has ever had.

[Turk Thrust]

Purely in terms of performance I would say Norman as I think he is definitely the funnier of the 2. As that won`t happen though, I would let the character die.

[Turk Thrust]

> I?m a little fascinated by gladriel69?s comment:

>?I assume you cut the Monkey Boy line because you thought >it was racist? I?m sure the actors would have complained >if they thought it was. Also, its clearly in relation to >humans evolving from apes, not skin colour. I will add >though, as an aspiring writer I would have avoided it for >fear of offending the odd one or two people who would get >it wrong – you have been a valuable lesson, cheers.?

>What?

Yes, that is an interesting comment to say the least.

The stuff in the early series probably wouldn`t be done now maybe but this guy`s interpretation is bizarre.

[Turk Thrust]

Interesting review.

It must be a bit tough for Doug and Andrew (if they look at these things) to constantly read that new writers should be brought in. Even from the pretty positive reviewers.

If Doug does record a commentary or interviews for the DVD over the coming days then it will be interesting to hear whether he responds to criticisms made and talks about any lessons learnt.

[Turk Thrust]

Agree about that line. Also in an ideal world I would like Lister`s `that`s not right` lines cut because they just seem so wrong coming out of his mouth. That would probably mean that it wouldn`t make sense though.

[Turk Thrust]

> I still don?t understand why the episodes were not filmed in front of a live audience

In terms of time, money and not wanting stories to leak it was understandable.

In terms of the actual episodes, I agree that they should have been filmed in front of an audience. The Back to Reality stuff the audience could have coped with (they did the first time after all) and the dramatic scenes weren`t too dramatic either. After all, other audience sitcoms have effectively dealt with the funerals of cast members in the past and not suffered.

[Turk Thrust]

> I have provisionally placed BtE 28th (after only one viewing) in my personal all-time list. That puts it above the following Series 1-6 eps: The End, Demons and Angels, Bodyswap, Rimmerworld, Parallel Universe, Confidence and Paranoia, Better Than Life, Waiting for God and Emohawk: Polymorph 2.

As these eps were broadcast individually though, shouldn`t they be judged individually really? In the same way that G&T recently compiled a list of their favourite 52 eps a while ago considering BitR and Pete to be multi-parters.

[Turk Thrust]

On a similar level to Series VII and below everything else.

[Turk Thrust]

Yeah, excellent opening. I think you made it pretty much as good as it could be. Just a shame that some of the bits which I find cringeworthy need to be in there to make it make any sort of sense.

[Turk Thrust]

I think this ep serves to remind everyone just how beautifully plotted Back to Reality is. In that episode all of the characters believably are taken from shock to despair gradually as the events unfold. In Back to Earth, maybe because the whole production had to be done so quickly, the same can`t be said.

I agree that for Kryten and Rimmer the reasons already given are probably correct but I`m not sure how believing they are going to die brings them joy. Then all 3 other characters are exposed to physical pain at Lister`s hands in the typewriter scene…

[Turk Thrust]

> Nick, those viewing figures are massive for a cable channel. It?s normal for shows to lose viewers like that. A steady audience of 1m for a cable show is, well, about the biggest audience ever under such circumstances, as the recent Dave press release says.

Oh, I know that and I`ve said elsewhere that I think Dave will be very happy.

What I was saying though that whoever decided Dwarf shouldn`t come back to the BBC could use this as justification. They could say that it wouldn`t have sustained an audience and wasn`t considered to be an absolutely successful return or whatever. I`m not saying it would be absolutely accurate but they could use the figures in that way.

[Turk Thrust]

Well it depends on who exactly it was who didn`t want Dwarf and why. They may feel vindicated now as the shows received mixed reviews and lost so many viewers after the first ep. For the BBC to go back to Dwarf now would be strange to me.

[Turk Thrust]

> Anyway, next time you?re having a conversation about a topic that interests you, remind me to barge through your front door and start shouting in your face about something unrelated.

I wasn`t the one who started talking about rip offs if you look. And when the debate had started about whether one chunk of a show was a rip off then it was hardly unrelated to mention something else.

Anyway to get back on topic, that dialogue has only been around for 2 days and hasn`t stood the test of time yet. Also 50% of people already don`t really seem to rate the new eps. I think it`s far too early to be able to rank it as better than any of the character`s other moments from the past 20 years.

[Turk Thrust]

> If only the episode had given some kind of explanation for why they were there. Sigh.

Why were they needed to bring joy to the characters? How often have they declared themselves mad keen Blade Runner fans who are desperate to remake scenes word for word?

[Turk Thrust]

> Oh, thanks for derailing the thread by talking about something entirely different that?s already been discussed ad nauseam elsewhere, folks.

Making one reference to another show could be classed as an homage. Remaking entire scenes is rather more than that.

Threads often change topic don`t they. And as the scene where Lister and Kochanski are in the car is a rip off from Blade Runner it is perfectly valid to mention it.

[Turk Thrust]

Saved by the Bell: The New Class?

[Turk Thrust]

> It?s not a rip-off if you explicitly acknowledge that it?s a sequel

Even if that`s the case, the fact that the new angle was a rip off from Blade Runner was a rip off. You could argue that a lot of other things in the eps were rip offs from Dwarf too and one (terribly done gag) was a rip off from The Simpsons.

[Turk Thrust]

I agree that the serious scenes were the best of the eps though and I wish there had been more (with some non-interfering humour thrown in). Can`t help feeling that that scene deserved more than to be followed by a very rushed and not very convincing wrap up and Danny singing the old song.

[Turk Thrust]

I disagree…unsurprisingly. :-)

For one reason, the original scene on the bus made me cringe. Another reason would be that I think there are dozens of better scenes that Rob and Doug wrote together for the novels and Series I – VI.

[Turk Thrust]

1.02 million is what the site actually says for Sunday which is a slight improvement on Saturday. I`m sure Dave would have been happy with the viewing figures if they`d been offered them at the start even if there must have been disappointment about the downturn from Friday. I would guess that whoever at the BBC didn`t want Dwarf won`t feel their decision has been proven wrong though.

[Turk Thrust]

Of course its is. :-)

Zoe Wanamaker has said in an interview that it`s shit and that she and Robert Lindsey had to walk out of the filming of one episode because the writing was so awful.

[Turk Thrust]

> There are currently 19,000 people seeding it on a certain torrent site.

How many of them will be overseas though?

[Turk Thrust]

I guess it had decent competition and a drop was always likely…but to lose comfortably over half of your audience in one day. The perceived (by some people)lack of quality of the first ep must have been a big factor too.

[Turk Thrust]

> And BTE seems to be going the same way. ?It was just a TV show? is far too close to ?It was just a dream? for my liking. Part 3 tonight may prove me wrong, but you know what I?m getting at I?m sure.

I`m guess equilibrium will probably be restored by the end.

[Turk Thrust]

> So let?s rephrase to ?a special written by the original writers?. Cos for me, it gets a lot more appealing at that point.

Completely agree. Put them back in their original habitat and it could work. I still doubt the BBC would be interested though and I don`t know why Fegen and Norris stopped working together.

[Turk Thrust]

It would probably be very poor indeed. The last 2 series of Brittas were weak and the special before that (which took them away from the leisure centre environment) also didn`t work imo. I don`t think Brittas is that fondly remembered nowadays anyway from what I`ve read on other forums. Although I really enjoyed it when it was at its best.

[Turk Thrust]

Well this genuinely isn`t meant to be personal towards anyone but I think that one of the things that Rob brought to the partnership was to be very firm on quality control (as I`m sure Doug could be as well sometimes). Doug basically says this on the DVDs when he sayd that Rob always said, `we can come up with something better` even when deadlines were tight.

I think that throughout Doug`s tenure as the guy running the show he has missed that. I think there are lots of good ideas in Doug`s solo stuff but there are also some terrible things which shouldn`t have made it to the screen. Doug being the director has probably only exacerbated that problem.

If more Dwarf eps are ever made then I hope that Doug would consider bringing someone else in who has a really big pedigree who can look at things from a dispassionate outsider`s point of view and separate the wheat from the chaff.

[Turk Thrust]

> It?s a cruel review by a very spiteful woman.

Yes, of course it is…

[Turk Thrust]

http://board.sitcom.co.uk/thread/12507/3

Mixed reception here.

[Turk Thrust]

Did she mention the colour of Danny`s and Craig`s skin in the article??? Or is it only you who thinks that`s relevant??? You are implying that she is a racist without any evidence at all which is cretinous. She was talking about what Danny and Craig have been famous for and their arrests are relevant to that end. She didn`t say Danny HAD been found guilty. But he was famous for being arrested and her description of the arrest obviously wasn`t meant to be scathing.

No, Dwarf hasn`t always been cool even when it`s been winning awards or shifting DVDs and I guess that you haven`t read much of Caitlin Moran`s writing before. She is obviously exaggerating with her comments about 8 million people being embarrassed. That`s pretty blatant.

Why would she be spiteful when she enjoyed the early series of the show herself?

If you disagree with her comments about the ep then fine but don`t come out with nonsense about her targeting black actors. You`re the only one doing that.

[Turk Thrust]

Another name was listed as script supervisor I think.

[Turk Thrust]

Bullshit.

Even if you disagree with all of her opinions, she did state that Craig was acquitted of rape. Although she didn`t mention that Danny`s verdict has now been overturned, it was hardly spiteful. She was simply stating the facts that what those 2 guys have been famous for in recent times is being in the tabloids (and Craig being in Corrie which she also mentioned).

[Turk Thrust]

I`ve never heard that before. Where did you read the interview? Thank Christ that they never just brought in hired hands to write the show…although I do think that Doug needs to work with somebody else if the show continues. Even if it is just a strong script editor with sound judgment. Can`t remember the name of the woman who worked on the specials but she can`t have been up to the task imo.

[Turk Thrust]

I think the movie obsession will see Doug attempting to get that made in some way after this. It might happen if the budget is significantly less than what was demanded before.

I do wonder whether, having worked with so many people who gave their services so cheaply, Doug regrets not taking the 6m he was offered a few years ago…

[Turk Thrust]

Seems like it divides opinion just as much as Series VII and VIII really.

[Turk Thrust]

http://netopiax.org/boards/index.php?topic=19180.240

[Turk Thrust]

Yeah, I haven`t been able to watch the Rimmer vid yet but after seeing the Lister one I`m not sure I ever want to.

[Turk Thrust]

Can Doug do it all on his own though? That is the one point in Norm`s rant that may have some validity (and one or 2 of the reviewers have said the same thing). I guess we will see tonight and over the weekend.

By the way, I actually don`t think I, Lovett is that bad at all and it is generally quite highly thought of from what I`ve read.

[Turk Thrust]

> You can?t really blame any of them for not getting in touch, can you? Not when he slags them off on a regular basis.

Norman did go to Danny`s trial recently though didn`t he and was prepared to be a character witness? It is strange if there has been no contact at all imo.

[Turk Thrust]

I think someone else had similar feelings didn`t they…That the first ep isn`t too good but the second one is better?

[Turk Thrust]

That seems pretty much the only explanation based on that clip at least.

[Turk Thrust]

> I always said I wished Doug had gone further with VII, ditched the laugh track completely (along with many of the forced moments designed to trigger that laugh track), gone even more dramatic, gone more like Last Human.

I don`t really disagree too much.

I haven`t read Last Human for many years but when I did I thought it was certainly much better than Series VII. NOt perfect by a long way and some of the characterization was off but the tone was infinitely preferable. Series VII does have many things shoehorned in to try to make it conform to the sitcom standard I think.

With BtE, we haven`t really seen any comedy at all in the trailers but maybe that won`t be such a bad thing. I would rather that the new shows had few jokes rather than bad jokes and I am very happy that the style has changed since Series VIII. In that series Doug clearly tried to crowbar gags in even when they didn`t fit (the Nostrilomo gag being 1 of a hundred examples) and it had a negatie impact on the show imo.

Hopefully in BtE any jokes will fit in with the story and be true to the characters.

[Author]

Replies