Carlito

[Carlito]

Maybe he is a First Technician. Perhaps he has been promoted in the interim (took an exam, automatic bump up due to years of service etc)

[Carlito]

Yet, anyway.

I’m not expecting any Starbug cockpit scenes in this series so I would be pleasantly surprised if any show up but not disappointed if they don’t.

Now that the production has the Red Dwarf sets at their disposal and don’t have to build from scratch, I’d expect the Starbug interior back in series XI if we get one. With a tight budget, we’re lucky to get as many (stunning) sets as we have. Saying that, I do not know for a fact that the ‘Bug interior doesn’t show up later in X anyway.

[Carlito]

So… a 4th Series of Bottom is on the way…

[Carlito]

I thought we were back to Chris Barrie’s hair for a second then….

[Carlito]

A commentary on the deleted scene eh? Audio or text? If audio, surely this bodes well for/confirms a commentary of some kind on the main episodes?

[Carlito]

I did think that, but it could have caused serious repurcussions for Kryten if they did that and Lister is no grass. Rimmer, on the other hand…. I’m surprised he didn’t at least suggest it.

[Carlito]

You could argue that the Tank wasn’t there before the nano rebuild, but Holly seemed to know about it.

[Carlito]

Well the Canaries were made up exclusively of prisoners (if I recall correctly), and the prisoners were all left behind to die. It would make sense that they would just be left in the Tank but then the main characters weren’t so it’s not really made clear. Perhaps because they were on parole they weren’t left in the Tank, or maybe as they had managed to escape already they knew how to get out again. Alternatively, all the Canaries were let loose on the ship, and we didn’t see any because it’s a pretty big ol’ ship.

Still, if the Red Dwarf they are on board now in RDX is the same ship following on the same continuity (which appears to be the case but maybe RDX will make that clearer) then it’s a good question…. not only what happened to Hollister and the rest of the crew who escaped but also the prisoners and people left aboard when the ‘important’ people jumped ship. Can’t imagine there’s still an operating prison facility on board or that Lister and co. would leave them there to die.

[Carlito]

There are some funny bits in Only The Good to give it its due. The ending sucks and it sucks as a series finale, but the drunken cell scene is very amusing and one of the rare instances of the heightened series VIII big performances adding to rather than detracting from a scene. “You’re gonna crush his rolls?” is a good line. Lister tricking Kryten into launching a celebration of Kochanski’s time of the month is not very Red Dwarf-like but is a fairly amusing prank overwrought by the script. The scar conversation, while a bit contrived, feel very series I-II – not as good but hardly awful either.

The Bad: How did Kryten know about the microbe from the Hermes, let alone recognise it? The Cat in drag – no thanks. The Captain leaving the main characters on RD to die, despite their expertise at surviving in unusual situations in deep space and dealing with previously unknown phenomenon just doesn’t make any sense.

[Carlito]

I would agree that the premise was a great idea, and the Blade Runner stuff sidetracked it. I really liked episode 1, and the scenes on Earth which didn’t revolve around Blade Runner (the department store/mall, the bus journey, Corrie etc.)

I would have preferred The Creator actually be Doug Naylor, even if he didn’t portray himself. If part 1 had been the same, then part 2 and 3 had been more along the lines of the aforementioned scenes I think it would have been overall a better show. Why did they only meet Craig? Why didn’t they go looking for Danny, Chris and Robert too? That would have been more interesting, I think. Even if they had tracked down Norm and Hattie, imagine a scene with the characters meeting Norm and Hattie at the same time, how weirdly cool would that have been? BTE is one of those “what could have been” scenarios I think. Fantastic idea spoiled by over-egging the homage. Just the zoom scene and origami would have done as a nod to Blade Runner.

[Carlito]

Yes, noticeably slower for me today.

[Carlito]

I still think they missed a trick by not having a studio audience or at least a (genuine) laugh track for the ship based portions of the show and have the audience disappear when the crew entered ‘the real world’.

[Carlito]

I’ll preface by saying I still haven’t seen Blade Runner…

I think the reason the opinion of BTE has soured is because, if there are people out there like me, it doesn’t have a great deal of rewatch value. I can sit and rewatch a series I-VI episode that I’ve seen twenty times before and still really enjoy it. There are a few select episodes in VII and VIII that I can do the same with. But other than in the immediate aftermath of the broadcast and subsequent DVD release, I have rarely returned to the well of BTE. I think sitcom is generally far more rewatchable than drama, no matter how good said drama may be, and even though you couldn’t call BTE a drama, the tone is quite obviously different. I duno, I’m kind of rambling and not articulating my point all that well… hopefully you get what I mean.

Having said the above, my opinions at the time were that episode 1 was great, episode 2 was disappointing and episode 3 was okay. But I think my appreciation of episode 2 has increased while my lukewarm feelings towards 3 have degenerated. I still think episode 1 was the best of the bunch. Still have no problem with the squid resolution as I understood that the special was a celebratory nod to the shows history and thought it was fitting.

[Carlito]

Dark Ages was fucking atrocious though.

[Carlito]

I enjoyed the Strangerers (in a completely different way to Dwarf) and thought Colony was a good fun book that I’ve read a couple of times. I would love to see a movie adaptation of Colony but it doesn’t really seem all that practical and would surely require a preposterous budget.

[Carlito]

I can’t imagine a scenario where Rob Grant would be denied the opportunity to return to Red Dwarf if he so desired. But then, I am not Grant/Naylor, and neither are you. It is not our place to judge them; I wonder why you do?

[Carlito]

Aww, Si. It is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.

[Carlito]

The thing is, I’ve had so much coffee I don’t think I can manage any mints until tomorrow.

[Carlito]

Rewatched VII and VIII over the last week on DVD rather than Dave.

I really love the set design and lighting on VIII. And how lucky were we to get a rebuild of the Series I-II sleeping quarters set just for one scene in BITR? (I do realise that another scene was cut when it was extended). Kind of self indulgent to spend the budget that way, but there were so many different sets just in BITR alone compared to the 2 or 3 sets used in the RDX recording I saw.

Hate the font used in VIII, really no idea why they changed from microgramma to that ridiculous 80s computer font, but the sets and lighting are superb, the costume design is great, albeit a little limited.

I think there is so much disgust for VIII that the things that were done well are often overlooked. Such as:

* As mentioned, set design, costumes and lighting are arguably better than at any other point (bar maybe series V). There are just so many sets, and there is consistency across the board. It all serves to add epic scope to the giant ship. OB locations are very good too.

* the improvement in the character of Kochanski… she was surplus to requirements but actually had some amusing material in contrast to VII.

* it tried to be funny. The performances became too broad and the audience probably over-enthusiastic and too generous/forgiving with their laughter, but where VII seemed content to settle into comedy-drama, at least the effort was there in VIII to fill it full of gags.

* changing the central premise was a fucking ballsy move, and on paper it should have worked. The canaries concept was underused but when it did get a proper showcase in Cassandra, it produced the best episode of solo Doug Dwarf (at least until next month). Repopulating the ship opened a lot of possibilities, and bringing back the likes of Hollister, Chen and Selby… Doug was certainly being mindful of the hardcore cult fanbase when writing it, it must have hurt to have it thrown back in his face.

* I genuinely think the CGI is not bad at all for 1998. Not as good as models, naturally, but re-watching it I didn’t find them off-putting. The brig, the diving sequences in Cassandra, even the ship itself… they all look pretty good for a BBC sitcom, y’know?

[Carlito]

This will take some getting used to…

[Carlito]

No but she is his paternal grandmother. His father’s mother. See?

[Carlito]

> Who impregnated their Grandmother with their Father?

Well Lister is his own father so Kochanski is both his mother and his grandmother. So Lister’s father impregnated his grandmother.

Of course this all makes Lister’s continuing lust for his own great great grandmother Kochanski incredibly creepy.

[Carlito]

Now, now. G&T have good form, EVERY time brand new Red Dwarf has aired during the sites lifetime, there has been a Dwarfcast review posted on the very same night. So chill, Winston.

[Carlito]

Robbie Coltrane there. Huge man. Ticking time bomb.

[Carlito]

Exactly what I was thinking… there was even a very similar line in addition to the skeletal crew that he thought were alive.

[Carlito]

Personally, I thought it started well but fell apart. All that stuff with the ducks all getting into trouble, that was great. Then there was a big red spaceship and that bloke what is off of Corrie and I fell asleep.

[Carlito]

I usually really enjoy Doctor Who but – yes, here comes a tired old argument – I’ve found myself becoming less interested with each passing Moffat season. Tuned in for this one and found the first 20 mins grated me so much I kind of switched off mentally for the rest of the episode and allowed myself to become distracted with other things.

I will give it another watch and TRY to pay more attention to the second half so as to have a fair and informed opinion of the episode on the whole but early impressions not so good.

[Carlito]

Where are you hearing that? It would be a massive disappointment not to have cast commentaries on RDX when every other series release has them. To me, they are a big draw for buying the DVD. Not the ONLY reason by any means, but something I would miss massively if it wasn’t there. Having seen every RD episode so many times over the years, often if I feel like a Red Dwarf kick, I do watch them with commentary instead.

If we’re not getting a cast commentary, can we at least hope for a director’s commentary??

[Carlito]

Christ, looking at the grammar and spelling of my posts above (and general atrocious examples from throughout the day on Facebook et al) it appears my intelligence circuits have melted today.

[Carlito]

If every episode after BITR had been a CANARIES adventure a la Cassandra, I would have been much hapier with series VIII. Great idea poorly executed bar the one high point.

[Carlito]

Boy, is it cramped!

I think the prison concept at least freshed up series VIII and the CANARIES was a great idea. These creative decisions were not the cause of a drop in quality, the scripts, edit and performances were. I really like Cassandra on the whole, and most of Krytie TV. Back in the Red would have really made for a great feature-length if you remove all the recaps, the layered twist of a second AR reveal and the Hollister intros (Dennis the Doughnut Boy? What a pile of shit! He was clearly very competent at his job in series 1 and 2… well, except for assigning Rimmer a job that could cost the crew their lives of course)

[Carlito]

Yeah, we’ve heard for years how RD scripts would be adjusted if the audience reaction was lacking, plus editing decisions would be made based on the crowd response too. And there was chatter during the recent recordings of on-the-spot changes being made and pick-ups incorporating brand new material after the recordings… so I suppose a raucous audience at VIII could have created a false sense of security in the material and the OTT performances. Interesting thought.

I wonder how VIII would have turned out if it had been filmed without an audience and the laugh track recorded later, a la VII.

[Carlito]

Hmm, is he suggesting that the audience had a negative effect on series VIII?

The performances were very ‘big’ in VIII, which annoyed a lot of people. Could the “raucous” studio crowd have been a factor?

[Carlito]

> A depressing party trick I used to have was being able to recite the whole script of Hole (the ferris wheel episode) on request. I can’t say it was a trick that was in great demand.

Me and a mate used to do the same with Queeg.

[Carlito]

I went to see Weapons Grade Y-Fronts in Cardiff C.I.A. and literally fell asleep. Saying that, the only other show I ever saw in the C.I.A. was Ricky Gervais ‘Fame’ and I think I fell asleep in that too. Something about that damn C.I.A.

I used to love Bottom, and the live stage shows inspired me and my friend to take drama classes in school and basically turn them into our own personal comedy hour each week in an attempt to emulate the fun those two seemed to be having at their craft.

That said, the film was mediocre and the last two stage shows weak. Apparently the fourth series of Bottom was written before it was cancelled; if they’ve convinced the Beeb to give them another go round, why not just exhume those scripts? (On the basis that they were written in the mid 90s when Mayall and Edmondson still had the spark for those characters).

[Carlito]

I hope that’s not the title for episode 2. I can think of two much better titles without even trying to get creative, plus it’s not even massively relevant to the story.

[Carlito]

Fuckio Offwch

[Carlito]

> Colonel Sebastian Doyle – ‘I’m sayin” (answer him)

Second that.

[Carlito]

It started well but it went a little downhill towards the end.

[Carlito]

> Okay, so why was Harmon fired? I thought he did an awesome job and I can’t find anyone who disagrees.

Nothing has been announced officially, but the general consensus is that he was a public relations nightmare, was erratic and high maintenance, struggled to bring the shows in on time and within budget, directly led to a high turnover in writing staff with his words and actions, and refused to acquiesce to repeated instructions to open the show up to the more casual, mainstream viewer.

You gotta respect him for standing up for himself and his vision. You also gotta concede, I guess, that it’s his own fault he’s gone. Still, very short sighted of Sony and/or NBC to figure “fuck the product – let’s get rid of this pain in the ass, churn out the remaining number of shows we need for syndication, then end it” rather than put up with Harmon for another half a year just to complete what he started so that the show, while costing the same and performing the same, will at least please the fan base it has acquired under Harmon and have a consistent tone throughout for syndication.

[Carlito]

My point is they have had three seasons to assess the numbers and demograph that Community attracts and still decided to give it another run. I doubt NBC would bother ordering and giving prime time scheduling (even on a Friday) to a show that it felt was a lost cause, especially with advertisement slots to tout, whether they have part ownership or not.

There was a vociferous outpouring when the show went on hiatus and its legend grew online and through social media enough that when it returned, its viewing figures were pretty respectable for once (for a couple of weeks at least). The fanbase is loyal, devoted and vocal and it made a difference. Where NBC has failed to effectively promote the show, its own audience took it upon themselves to do so and with demonstrable (if modest) results. That had to play at least some role in the decision to bring it back.

Except they’re not bringing “it” back, because “it” was a product of Dan Harmon’s mind and he has been kicked to the curb so “it” no longer exists. I wonder if this was solely a Sony Pictures decision or whether NBC demanded it, and if not, how they feel about having ordered 13 episodes of a show only to see its showrunner get the boot.

I think there’s a slight chance he will end up back in the mix somehow anyway so we shall see.

[Carlito]

It’s probably got more chance of survival airing on Friday nights where ratings expectations are lower and its not up against The Big Bang Theory which probably commands a very similar type of viewer and gets huge figures. Its very loyal and vocal fanbase are a large proponent of its endurance thus far with poor ratings. If anything, it risks alienating those due to the dismissal of Harmon.

If the show is cancelled after its 13 episode 4th season order, I don’t see how you can attribute it to anything but the dismissal of Harmon if the quality also declines. Sony would like it to reach syndication numbers; NBC probably don’t give a shit. They would not have ordered more if they didn’t think it was worthwhile.

All it needs to do is gain acceptable figures on a Friday night, which it could if its fanbase follows it to Fridays and it can pick up some of those Big Bang viewers with Nielsen boxes. If the show becomes a different animal, attempting to appeal to a different demographic, and it doesn’t work, then it surely will be the end.

When all is said and done, those who know or care about the behind-the-scenes shenanigans are ultimately a vocal internet minority and the general viewer probably won’t have a clue. If the new showrunners make it more appealing to the mainstream, it could hit big and run for years yet. The aforementioned Seinfeld only started hitting the big numbers in its fourth and fifth seasons. But it won’t be true Community anymore, either way.

[Carlito]

The best example in US comedy that I can think of where a showrunner has so dictated the voice and sensibilities of a show is Larry David on Seinfeld, and that went right off the boil when he left.

Even though Jerry is credited as a co-creator, it’s pretty evident that Larry was the driving force of the show and its comedic perspective, not only from interviews/behind the scenes info but from the on-screen product. Jerry became more involved in the creative side after David’s departure and whilst the show still had its moments, it became far more broad and off-beat, the characterisation was inconsistent and it jarred that the show wasn’t coming from the same singular vision it once did.

Its slightly different in the UK as most comedies traditionally have one or two writers who tend to write the show for the duration of its run. However, as mentioned with Brittas above, it can lead to the best examples of how a show can decline when its creators are no longer on board. At least when Rob Grant left Red Dwarf (of his own choice), the other half of the self-professed “gestalt entity” was there to ensure that – whatever your opinion of the quality of the show beyond that moment – it was authored with at least one of the authoritative voices of Red Dwarf.

Community will continue without its creator and its biggest fan (this is a man who paid for special title sequences for theme episodes out of his own pocket as there was no budget). It will also continue despite losing many of its longest serving writing staff and directors. It appears Sony are going for a total revamp to try and extend the shows run so it reaches syndication. But it cannot be the same show – the real show – even if it is better received or rated than it once was, in the same way that Red Dwarf could not be authentic Red Dwarf if, say, Doug Naylor bowed out and Series 11 was written by Paul Alexander with zero input from Grant or Naylor. Even if it were really good or even better than that which came before it. You can look at the endurance of The Simpsons despite several changes in showrunners, but it’s always had Matt Groening (and James Brooks) as a stabilising influence, ultimately its chief voice, even if he isn’t as hands-on as a Larry David or a Dan Harmon.

It’s a real shame that Sony couldn’t have come up with a way to resolve the Harmon situation. The apparent issue was his sloppiness with budget and deadline overruns and general demeanor as a fascist for his art. I suppose the public spat with Chevy Chase didn’t exactly help either. The obvious solution to me would be to appoint a co-showrunner to handle that side of things and let Harmon handle the creative side. Instead, they renewed his show and replaced him without even telling him. Very worrying that it could even be allowed to happen, and now it seems the goodwill which kept the show alive despite its low ratings is slowly descending into comments across the internet such as “it should have just been cancelled instead” – comments unthinkable just a week ago when everyone was desperate for confirmation that the show would return. It’s a good job that the season 3 finale played out almost as a show finale because for many intents and purposes, it was.

It’s really depressing that something like that can even be allowed to happen in the first place. That a creator can be ousted from his own work is really worrying. I know this kind of treatment isn’t anything new but coming from a wanky creative perspective, it’s very very bad.

[Carlito]

Community as we knew it has been cancelled. It was great while it lasted. Even if the new showrunners do a decent job, even a better job, it won’t be the true Harmon vision. It would be akin to letting Shakespeare write two thirds of a play and then fucking him off and getting somebody else to write the final act.

(No need to point out the disputes about the authorship of some of his plays, it’s just a metaphor….)

[Carlito]

I have to say that sounds like its just a mistake or ill-informed guess work. But to indulge it a little…

September 23rd is a Sunday. Can’t see new Dwarf airing on a Sunday, though I suppose it isn’t out of the question. Surely a Friday would make more sense. But all the recent chatter has been about an October launch anyway, hasn’t it?

As for BBC2, I suppose that as an arm of the BBC owns (or at least partly owns?) Dave, it’s possible in theory for RDX to get a BBC repeat? I don’t know enough about the legalities/technicalities/semantics of the situation there. On that note, could it even be possible for the BBC to say “we want RDX” to Dave, even though it’s their commission? I’d assume not but then again I do not know.

It’s fun to speculate et al, but chances are that’s just a complete mistake, based on everything we know or have heard rumoured about RDX.

Of course, another possible explanation could be that perhaps the BBC plans to capitalise on Red Dwarf Fever by having a repeat run of some of the old series on Sundays around the time RDX launches on Dave?

[Carlito]

Big thumbs up. Few favours called in perhaps. Anyway, great news.

[Carlito]

Would it have actually been the BBC who edited those shows, or would it have been the American network or the production company?

[Carlito]

I actually liked Captain Butler. No classic by any means, but cheap and cheerful.

A Prince Among Men was quite flat, but I do recall the final two or three episodes of series 2 (when it had been shunted to Sunday afternoons) being actually quite good.

[Carlito]

Loved The World’s Greatest Dad from the same director Bobcat Goldthwait, so I’d be eager to see this. However, the Breaking Bad similarities (based on the trailer anyway) are… striking. That’s a little worrying.

[Carlito]

Having said that (™ Jerry Seinfeld), tapping into the core and lapsed fandom of Red Dwarf is key to the new shows success nearly as much as bringing on board a new audience. Returning the show to its strongest central premise makes sense on both counts.

[Author]

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